Allison Williams On: Perfectionism, Defensiveness, and the Horror Movies We All Make in Our Minds

29:41And so, yeah, I would say that I hadn't been actively participating in those friendships for a couple of years then. And one of the many gifts of having our son was having that revived and having that back in my life. coming up Alison Williams talks about the friendship recession among men aging authentically and caring less about it and more

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32:42Have you followed all of the discourse around the friendship recession among men? Okay. I have a lot to say on this topic. The answer is yes. The thing I always think about, and I have no idea who put this idea into my head. It could have been you, honestly. The idea that women bond perpendicularly and men bond in parallel, is that an idea you're - It wasn't me. I don't know. Okay. Meaning like men bond, like both looking out a car window while they're talking because we don't want to. Yeah. Or at a TV screen at a bar or on a golf course next to each other in a golf cart. And women like to sit down across from each other at a table and be like, so I want to see your eyes.

33:23And one of the things I love and admire about my husband is that he loves spending time with his guy friends in perpendicular settings. Like the two of you will go out to dinner and talk and, you know, spend time together. But I think for a lot of men, that kind of emotional intimacy isn't modeled or experienced enough at a young age. And it feels like you're, I mean, not to gender it all so much or stereotype it all so much, but I feel like a lot of men would say that that feels like they're at dinner with their wife, having to sit across from them and talk to them about feelings and what you're going through.

33:58But I'm just devastated that they don't know what that feels like because it's one of the great gifts of the world. I feel like Alexander and his friends have saved each other's lives, like I'm not even being dramatic, multiple times by their ability to just invest in that perpendicular kind of talking, honesty, sharing, vulnerability, humility. but it's not the norm and it's really too bad. Yeah. What do you see in it when you think about it? It's seen from the data that women quite naturally maintain relationships in ways that men today and perhaps always are struggling with and that it's contributing to pretty serious declines in men's mental health.

34:49And I think we inherited a story about what strength is, frankly, from your industry, Hollywood, which depicts, you know, Lone Rangers and Marlboro men and, you know, people bootstrapping it on the prairie. And that actually is contrary to how we evolved. Men are out there biohacking their faces off and living in paleo lifestyle, but ignoring the most important lesson of evolution, which is community. Yeah. What's interesting is that going back to my college days and all the anthropology and stuff, I'm actually thinking about how unimportant real emotional intimacy would have been for men in the same way that it would have been for women.

35:34The idea of raising kids and community with other women and men competing to reproduce, that kind of wouldn't have been as important, I would think. I mean, this is, you should actually interview a real anthropologist to talk about all of this or an evolutionary biologist, but I would think that it is actually a new skill in terms of the timeline of male brain development and hormones in the timeline of human existence, I would say it probably isn't a relatively new skill. That friendship is a luxury of, it's why I have anxiety. I don't have the need for all the hormones that I would have needed evolutionarily.

36:16My life is super comfortable and I'm rarely dealing with any kind of real fight or flight requirements. And so my system just misfires occasionally and shows me other shit that I don't need. But that's a digression. We can talk about that later. But I think that the definition of what it means to be a man has changed dramatically. The role that they serve in our world has changed dramatically. And that this is, you know, whatever, this is the stuff of adolescence and everything else that we're talking about as a culture right now. And finding that place and that purpose is vitally important because I think it's hopefully going to come with the importance of friendship and realizing that that shouldn't be gendered and that it's not a competition.

37:05It is and it isn't, you know, like a competition. Also, I feel unqualified to talk about all of this. I'm not a man and I'm not an anthropologist. I guess what I'm saying is that I do actually understand why evolutionarily it would be harder for men because it wasn't as important for survival. But I think now it is required for survival. Yeah, I mean, I don't know how much perpendicular dinner dates were important for survival and evolutionary times, but the ability to work together to take down a mastodon or whatever was vital. So whatever you call it, men, like all members of Homo sapiens, need positive relationships.

37:46relationships. We may not have been socialized to stare into each other's eyes and disclose, but turns out we need it. We're kind of fucked without it and it borne out in the data. Yeah. I feel so lucky for Arlo that he has as a model in Alexander, someone who has incredibly healthy friendships that are deeply important to him. And by the way, that aren't just with men, that he has really close female friends from his whole life that are super important and maintaining those relationships and Arlo can see modeled in his dad an example of what it looks like to have and share and process feelings with friends is so nice and I feel like it's he's super lucky and so am I I know that it's not not a given it's really important that what he is seeing is not that old model of masculinity.

38:41He's kind of got like, not to brag, but in his dad and in my husband, he's got like this full package of a guy who presents like a kind of totally Hollywood accurate portrayal of what masculinity looks like and functions like. And also someone who has like a pretty incredible relationship to his own inner emotional life and is totally comfortable sharing that with his son and showing him what it all looks like. It's funny because just say your husband, Alexander, has been on the show before. Alexander Draymond, he was the star of a great show on Netflix called The Last Kingdom. And anyway, I'll drop a link to that in the show notes for anybody who wants to listen to it.

39:22I was worried the first time you, well, when I learned who he was and that you guys were coming over to the house, it was like we saw you right after like COVID was ending and you were in your third trimester and you guys were now together. And so we hadn't seen each other in a couple of years. So we were meeting him for the first time, but I had seen the show years before. So I was very familiar with who he was. And I was like, I'm not gonna like this guy. He's gonna, you know, and then he turns up and he's like emo as hell. Yeah. And literally my clearest memory of that evening was my randomly saying to him, yeah I like your sweatshirt and then the next time we saw you guys he showed up with that sweatshirt in a bag and gave it to me and I still wear it that's yeah what kind of guy he is you know from his point of view too that's an intimidating hangout I don't know I mean I think it was just immediately clear that you guys had a thing and he doesn't feel comfortable opening up like that with everybody so it just meant that he felt safe I guess what I'm trying to say I think what was beautiful is that I watch him do this and show Arlo this.

40:34It requires bravery because there is a certain amount of risk involved to taking the first step towards vulnerability in a new friendship. And I think there's a great scene in Mean Girls I think about all the time where they're looking in the mirror and pointing out things they hate about themselves. And it's sort of like the way that women bond sometimes. It's just by like talking shit about themselves together. and being like, can I trust you? Are you going to join me in this exercise? And for men, I feel like the equivalent is sort of tossing out an emotional kind of statement and seeing how it goes, showing a feeling or discussing one.

41:13And if it comes back to you, then a rally has begun. Then you're like, okay, now we're in this thing and it's okay. But it takes someone to be brave at first and just take that first thing. And I don't remember which of you it was, but it was really so nice to see because, yeah, I care about you guys a lot and I thought you would get along really well and then it was really nice to see. And your friendship has taken on a whole life that I'm not even part of, which I have feelings about, but it's fine because Bianca and I have the same thing. So I'm so hopeful that the generation of boys that we're raising are not going to have the same struggles making and maintaining friendships.

41:57I hope, I hope, I hope. Yeah, I agree. A friend of mine uses the term emotional imbecility, which I think is spot on for, I see myself in that. I think it's true of many men. I think you're selling yourself short, Dan. Well, like the version of me that we met, I have actually a pretty clear visual of Bianca and I meeting you at a restaurant, like right on the east, on the West Side Highway. Yes. You were 22. Yes. That guy needed some help. Who didn't in that room? Like, I also remember. Yeah. It's just who doesn't at all times, I guess, is what I would say. But I didn't meet you then and think, oh, this guy needs some help.

42:39All I was thinking about was like, I want this guy to think I'm smart so badly. I want everyone in this room to think I'm smart. It's all that matters to me. It's all that mattered to me for so long was just making sure everyone thought I was smart enough. I didn't have a, and then what? It was just, that was it. That was the only mission for a long time. I'm curious, what's your source of insecurity now? Like, is it being on Instagram and seeing other allegedly perfect moms and then comparing that to 75 missteps that you made over the last week? That can get it sometimes. Honestly, sometimes I'll, actually, honestly, my biggest insecurity is when people say to trust your gut.

43:24I don't often feel like my gut's being loud. And that can make me feel insecure. Anytime someone says, trust your gut, you got this, mama. I'm always like, go fuck yourself. That always enrages me. And I think it must be because it hits a nerve. For example, the decision about whether or not to have another kid is something I think about every day. And I keep waiting for my gut to have something to tell me about this. And it is still on the fence, I think. Like, I'm like, okay, well, beyond that, in a world where I have a finite amount of eggs, like, can something other than my gut make this decision?

44:06And maybe someone other than me, can we hire a consultant to make this choice? Because it feels like my gut is supposed to make this choice, and it hasn't told me what its verdict is yet, and I don't have infinite time. that is something I might feel insecure about is just that some people seem to have guts that talk to them very loudly and that mine doesn't always do that so yeah I would say that the part of me that wants everyone to like me and improve of me has chilled out significantly which is such a relief but it's still there it'll always be there I think in some way like if I found out that I hurt someone's feelings or actually offended people that would really still bother me but I don't think that's the insecurity you're talking about.

44:52I don't know. I think as I've gotten older and I've come to terms more with who I am, it's been less scary for other people to see that. So insecurity-wise, like if someone sees a part of my body that I don't like, that would have been my answer truthfully back in the day. Or like having a pimple, a literal imperfection on your face would have been like, yikes, obsessive, so scary. And now not as much not zero but very very little now that's huge progress it's huge progress also like i feel indebted slightly to gen z for this because it is so cool that they are i'll use pimples as an example because we're on the subject but like pimple stickers and stuff like that are like colorful and star-shaped whereas in our generation like you never wanted anyone to know you had a pimple anywhere and there's a whole like covering them up and making them not exist is like a whole thing whereas they adorn them it's literally like yeah it's a pimple is this gonna say something about who i am it's a my an oil gland on my face that's acting weird like this is not a bigger story it's just a thing on my face and it's so nice because i it's just so counter to the way the very presentational way that we were kind of brought up aiming for perfection that kind of embracing of the whole human experience is so obvious and so nice in the public sphere so i feel a little indebted to that and also just to getting older that doesn't mean i'm not still vain and putting botox in my face and stuff like that because i am but i just mean that like for example yesterday i did a full day of press and i didn't really fully scrutinize the way i looked in the mirror throughout the day, which is shockingly different from the way I would have handled that 10 years ago or whatever.

46:48Just so different. I got backstage at a talk show and was looking in that last minute. There's like a mirror right before you walk on stage on almost all talk shows. I'm familiar with it. There's like that last minute mirror. There's usually some mints that are unwieldy and impossible to keep in your mouth on a talk show. So I don't know why they're there. And then there's like a box of tissues and a bottle of water usually. And last night, yesterday, I got to this talk show and I looked in that mirror and realized that you could see through my shirt. You could see my bra and it hadn't occurred to me to look or care.

47:17And then I just was like, I may have delayed my entrance onto the show in a former life to be like, I can't really defend it. I need to be wearing a bra where you can't tell that I'm wearing a bra. It's not part of the outfit. It's not on purpose. It's not on purpose, I guess being the biggest thing I would have just been like this is a nightmare but I was like you could see this right and then I was like okay and then I just you know went on and that might make no sense it's a deeply unrelatable story obviously it's relatable to me is it tell me well because I spent 30 years of my life on camera as a news anchor and so I yeah obsessed about this shit in ways that are incredibly embarrassing to talk about worrying about the retreat of my hairline or whatever, or like anybody shooting from the back of my head and whether like, as my son likes to remind me, my bald spot is visible.

48:12Like that type of thing was just took up so much bandwidth is incredibly painful. And to get older and to care less or to be not so attached to it is a massive relief. So we talked about this on the podcast a little bit. And what we came to was the idea of aging authentically. So it's not like I'm embracing every single thing that my body is doing as it gets older. It's not true at all. There are some things that I'm going to fight with all my might that bother me about my aging face and body and all of those things. And there's some things that don't matter. And I think not pretending to not care about the things that do matter is sort of where the authenticity comes in, where it's just like, no those things do matter and if there's something i can do to address them i'm going to do it and not feel like shameful about it just really be like yeah because they bother me and then also letting go of the things that don't matter and not trying any more to hit this target of perfect is such a relief and also perfectionism in general because i played marnie on girls and was constantly asked about whether or not I was a perfectionist for many, many years was like an area of real sensitivity because I deeply didn't want to be a perfectionist.

49:34Because to me, drawing a distance between myself and Marnie was so correlated with whether or not people would respect me as an actor. I wanted to create space wherever I could, but I am wired to try to be perfect and to be type A and all of those things are still true. It's just that I'm really not perfect or achieving at an A-plus level at all times. And my comfort with that has increased so much in recent years, and especially after becoming a mom. It's just been such a relief to that part of my system. And what a relief to on a day full of press when there's a million things going on. My value system, just staying what it is on every other day is so nice.

50:17Yesterday, I'm taking these photos on the street in my outfit with my hair and makeup team and my stylist, and I see a front-end loader carrying a bundle of wood with a chain. And I completely just walked away from everyone and pulled out my phone and started filming this and narrating it for Arlo, who is obsessed with trucks and three and a half. And that, to me, brought me so much joy, and it brought me back into my body from doing this very weird thing of just posing for photos on a New York City sidewalk back into the part of me that I am way more connected to right now, which is the part of me that sees like a front end loader and is like, I need to document this for my son.

50:56He's going to love this thing. And that is really nice that I can take that with me everywhere I go. That feels so much better and so much healthier and much, much less stressful to just be almost accepting of whatever version of me steps on a carpet or steps out onto a talk show rather than the one of me that I think should be worthy of. stepping out onto a carpet and onto a talk show. Yeah. Yeah, having kids, it's a titanic pain in the ass in many, many ways, but it also is a gigantic dose, a bolus of perspective. And it can be, if you're doing it right, a great reminder about what really matters and a relief to let go or at least turn the volume down on the shit that doesn't matter as much.

51:49coming up allison talks about catastrophizing in parenthood something i relate to deeply how to avoid passing your anxieties on to your children the making of her latest movie megan 2.0 and much more

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54:00there's one aspect of parenting that you were texting me about that I really resonate with and I didn't see coming, which was how catastrophic thoughts can knife in in the middle of what can be sweet moments and just fucking ruin them. Can you just talk about that? A hundred percent. So I am, I mean, it might be obvious if you've been listening to us talk for this long, but I am a, I'm an anxious person. I am a, I have intrusive thoughts and I'm a catastrophizer. And that combination of traits have, I guess, kept me alive to this point, but have been a perfect storm on multiple occasions in parenting.

54:41And I guess the most like kind of normal example of that is I said to Dan, you know, we have a really steep driveway and watching my son is three and a half run in like Crocs down the driveway with the biggest grin on his face is a crystallization of what it feels like to live in my mind because there are two things happening simultaneously. My eyes are observing that he is so happy. Joy on a child's face. This is like a happy guy. My whole nervous system is like, he's about to fall. He's about to fall. He's about to fall every second because he's still moving. The eyes are seeing the joy and the system is preparing for the fall.

55:23And what a tragedy. And he doesn't always fall. He does sometimes. And so far, you know, sorry, I have to knock on wood. It's a thing. So far, now my dog's barking because she thinks someone was at the door. This is something. We got to leave this in. No, it's perfect. I love it. Oh my God. She's so sure someone's at the door. Celebrities, they're just like us. She's, bless Miss Moxie, He's just been dutifully protecting me against people who knock for 10 years. The first dog your son met proudly. That's true. That's right. But anyway, that is such a lesson to just appreciate. Can I not just be in that moment with him when he's experiencing the joy of running down a hill?

56:09I wish I could quiet the part of me that's bracing for impact and just enjoy the joy that he's experiencing because he is cautious and thoughtful and evaluates where his body is in space pretty well sometimes but not all the time. I'm, he's feeling it out and he's not as anxious as I am. And I'm so proud of that fact. And I don't want to give it to him. And I don't want to burden him with this way of living that has held me back in so many ways, I think, and I've had to work to overcome. And he's just happy and enjoying himself. And every time I can't stop the careful from coming out of my mouth, which does happen, I feel bad because he didn't have that idea in his head until I put it there.

57:04And sometimes I have to, obviously, if like he's about to really hurt himself, my job is to prevent that scenario from happening. But not when, you know, my system doesn't do a great job of separating the real big threats to his safety from the not real big threats to his safety. And Alexander, my Alexander, not your son, although he would have pointed this out too because he's very observant and not shy about pointing things out to grown-ups that are areas for improvement, which is one of the things I love about your son. Very gently, early in my job as a mom, Alexander pointed out how often I said, careful to our son.

57:42And his delivery could not have been more gentle and my reaction to it could not have been more violent. I mean, it could have been more violent. I'm being dramatic, But I had a, as we were saying at the beginning of this conversation, it was really hard for me to take that in because of how true it was. And I have always remembered it because it's like a reflex. At that time, I couldn't at all control it coming out of my mouth and I wasn't even always aware of it. But it has since been so revealing to notice how often I want to say it and to try to quiet the impulse of saying it. Do you have the same thing?

58:18I completely relate to so much of what you're talking about. I do understand why you don't want to unnaturally imbue your son with too much of your anxiety. And specifically on this thing where you're in a moment with the kid and you start having these intrusive movies that are coming to your mind of, okay, I'm playing in the waves of my son, but now I can't stop the movies of a riptide. And my son, all I see is his arm or whatever under the water. Like that's just, or I'm chopping something in the kitchen. Just all you had to say is chopping. Yes. somehow there's a movie with the knife and the sun and, you know, it just it's just happening all the time.

59:04And I think where I've come to it is less like bemoaning of Dan, why are you ruining all these great moments and more like interest in that's interesting that the mind does this and there must be some evolutionary purpose. I mean, aside from the fact that both you and I have kind of innate, probably very much inherited anxiety. There's also, I think, a thing the mind does not only among parents, but all of us to play these movies out as a method for protection. Yes. But here's what's incredible is that my husband doesn't have this. He's not watching those movies and he is cautious and smart and is not like completely unaware of risks, but he doesn't have those movies playing.

59:48And it's an incredible balance because I have now spent enough time around his nervous system when I'm alone because he's shooting right now so I'm solo well with a lot of help and support but I'm the only parent here with Arlo and I can kind of try to channel the way he would evaluate things in his absence and when I'm gone I know that Alexander also is a little bit extra cautious to compensate for the fact that I'm not there and so we're able to kind of balance each other out in that way which is really nice but those movies don't play for everybody. And that is, it's no wonder that you and I both at one point in our lives found it a huge relief to use substances to quiet that shit down.

1:00:30Like, I mean, it is exhausting. They're not, and they're always wrong. Thank God. The movies that my brain puts together are like an AI misfiring, making like weird content based on iterative, It's like horror concepts. It's wild. And it's also, it sometimes is helpful. And that's a huge problem. One friend who's in therapy for being a hypochondriac right when the pandemic hit and her therapist was like, let's drop this. We'll pick this back up because all your tools are helpful and they're going to keep you alive. So forget everything I've said, use them all, and then we'll pick this back up when we've gotten a vaccine for this.

1:01:09But the problem is that sometimes it works and that makes it a really hard thing to try to evict completely from my personality. and the first day we woke up after I got out of the hospital when we had Arlo after the c-section recovery it was a little extra long we got through that first night the next morning we went outside to have a coffee we had Arlo in a little bassinet and we're sitting out there feeling the warm sun it was November and it was just this really nice morning and I look over at Moxie who was in the bushes and I was like I hope she's not eating out of a bait box. We had a rodent situation.

1:01:55I don't like to think about it because I love animals and I hate the idea of having bait boxes around the house but it was like compromising the structural integrity of the house so we had to have one. And it was like a concept that is the most dramatic thing she could have been doing is eating poison in the bushes. and I'm like six days postpartum and things were wild hormonally and Alexandra was like, she's not, it's fine and called her over and she wouldn't come. And I was like, will you just humor me and go see what she's up to? And sure enough, that bitch was eating poison. And what happened next was fast and terrifying.

1:02:32She got rushed to an emergency vet. It wasn't a nerve agent. Luckily, otherwise, she would have died immediately. Oh my God. It was all reversible, vitamin k etc but it was a moment where i was right like the weird story i came up with in that moment was the true story and every time that happens it really sets me back because then i'm like you know what sometimes those instincts are super helpful and what do you do with the fact that all day they're wrong and also how exhausting it's exhausting dan to have these minds i hear you Yeah. Last question. Speaking of horror movies. Yeah. I haven't spoken to you since you finished Megan 2.

1:03:12Is that true? Yeah, I guess that is true. And I was talking to you throughout the process, script writing. You were talking not only about starring in it, but also producing it because you have a role behind the scenes. Our last conversations, you were really, really involved in the pre-production and the writing. And so I'm just curious, how did it come out in your view? It's so awesome. It's really, really fun. These movies are really hard to make for a bunch of reasons, but a lot of them are really technical. Like when the star of your movie technically is a mostly animatronic doll, it's just complicated.

1:03:48And I'm only the star by default because I'm a human, but those tables will turn eventually and I'll take number two on the call sheet. Megan will edge me out as number one, but they are really complicated to make and so rewarding. and I'm super, super proud of the movie we've ended up with. It is really fun. And I keep thinking about how fun the ride is. I wish I could wipe my memory of my deep knowledge and familiarity with this movie and just watch it for the first time. Or maybe the more fun viewing is even the second time because it is exhilarating. When it starts and when it begins, you have no idea where it's going to spit you out.

1:04:38And that is like one of the real joys of movies, of watching movies. And also what's really fun about this movie is that people who loved the first one will love this movie and we're bringing other genres into the umbrella like action. It's like a thrilling action movie with this terrifying creepy doll at the center of it. And it's just fun to be able to say like if you own T2 or Aliens or Robocop, like you'll love this movie. And also your preteen daughter and her friends are going to love this movie. And it's also like fun that we're releasing it during Pride because like it feels like we're paying homage to a huge group of people who supported the movie the first time around.

1:05:26And there are a lot of groups of people who I think will really enjoy this movie. And that is really exciting to have made something that I think isn't for everybody and thus can be enjoyed by everybody. like the experience of watching a movie that is engineered to try to be a four quadrant movie is kind of exhausting where you're like oh boy this is the section i'm supposed to relate to and here's the section my husband is supposed to relate to and you're kind of like the lack of specificity means none of us are happy and gerard who's the brains behind it has such a specific sensibility and sense of humor and is so precise that it ends up being actually so enjoyable to a much more broad swath of people than it would be if it were being engineered to a very specific group of people.

1:06:17And I just can't wait for people to see it. Yeah. And it was like a kind of Titanic effort. It's much bigger than the first one in kind of every way. And yeah, everyone will see. I can't wait to be able to talk about it with more specificity. I hope that wasn't broad to the point of being boring but no no well first of all congratulations second i'm super excited to watch it so good well that's i think you'll love it i think you'll find it it's really funny i think it's funnier than the first one and it's a really fun ride alexander has this category of movies that i've been trying to define for our entire relationship called fun movies and you'd think that would have like a simple definition but i've been trying and failing to define it since we met the other day I very nervously was like, do you think Megan is a fun movie?

1:07:03And he was like, yes. I was like, I can retire. I made a fun movie. I still don't totally know what it is, but if it fits your definition of that, then I can be happy now. Nice. Thank you for doing this. Oh my God, we're at the end. This is it. Yeah. Oh, I felt like there was so much. There's, oh, okay. Thank you. A simple thank you for doing this. immediate anxiety attack. Well, I don't want it to be over. It's been so nice to catch up with you. I know. I know. Thank you so much for having me. I was so scared to do this show for so many years and this was so fun and not at all scary. I know. It does feel good.

1:07:44I finally got you on this fucking show. Podcasts were really scary to me for a long time because they're long form and for someone wired the way I was before, as we've discussed that every time you open your mouth is an opportunity to fuck up. And when you're just evaluating yourself on that binary, then yeah, podcast is really high stakes and really scary. And so I had to just grow up a little bit before I was ready. But here we are. You did great. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

1:08:18Big thanks to Allison Williams. Don't forget this month, we're offering up guided meditations that come with every Monday and Wednesday episode. The Teacher of the Month for July is Don Mauricio. Head on over to danharris.com to become a paid subscriber and you'll get access to all past and future companion meditations. Also, if you head on over to shop.danharris.com, you can stock up on your favorite 10 % Happier Goods during our summer merch sale, which starts Monday, July 7th and runs through the 14th. Before I let you go, I just want to thank everybody who worked so hard to make this show.

1:08:51Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan, and Eleanor Vasili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great people over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Kashmir is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.

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