Amanda Knox On: Finding Meaning in Tragedy, Not Needing an Apology, and Refusing to Own What Other People Think

32:06And he logicked his way into convincing a judge and a jury that that made sense. So it's not like he just convinced himself. He spun a story that captivated the world's imagination about, you know, girl on girl sexual violence that seemingly came out of nowhere, but was ultimately a pornographic fantasy. and it has taken 20 years to unravel. So it sounds crazy when you say it now, but at the time, it really captivated people. And I think the titillating scandal of it, again, sort of triggered people's gut feelings and people were able to sort of make accommodations for the illogic of it

32:58because our convictions are less logical than we like to think. Yes. Jonathan Haidt, the psychologist, often talks about the elephant and the rider. The rider is our logical brain and the elephant, which is much larger than us as the rider, is just our gumbo of feelings, which are really often like steering, even though we are unaware of it. So you go into this meeting with Menini wanting to understand him. How did it go? So I think one thing that's really important is that I originally thought that I would get in contact with him and try to get into a room with him as soon as humanly possible.

33:40But what happened was COVID happened. And so going to Italy and sitting face to face with my prosecutor was not an option, but I had already reached out to him. And so what ended up happening was I corresponded for two years with my prosecutor over letters and email before I actually sat down and confronted him. And that was, again, a weird silver lining to a very dramatic thing that took over lots of people's lives. But like slowing down and putting myself in a position of just hearing about his day. Like we didn't correspond about the case in a big way. We talked a lot about our lives and our interests.

34:33He would talk to me about his family, about his dogs and his cats. And he would, I mean, and this was also wild because I was in the process of starting a family of my own. He was always encouraging me to become a mom. Like it was it was a very. I think what was so interesting for me in that process was how talking around the thing that connected us allowed me to get a glimpse of the way that he thought. So he would complain about a local political thing that was going on or a local news story, and it gave me insight into things that triggered him or what his interests were or the way that his mind automatically processed things.

35:24And that helped me to then map that onto my own experience of him and recognize parallels. And then, of course, we like flirted with the with the actual conflict between us, but we would talk indirectly about it. Like he asked me to watch this movie, this old movie about a detective named Detective Mike Gray. And the movie he asked me to watch was Una Vita in Joko, which means a life on the line. And he said, watch this to understand my feelings as a prosecutor of your case. Well, Una Vita in Joko is about a detective who realizes that there is a person that he put on death row is actually innocent.

36:11And he orchestrates the release of this person and then follows him around so he can figure out who the real murderer is. It was just like, what? Like, are you, is this you conceding that you recognize that I'm innocent and that you were wrong? But is this like a way for you to say a thing that you don't want to say directly? And like, and then of course I responded to him with a Star Trek episode, which, are you a Star Trek fan? no okay well then i won't be specific but like i sent him a star trek episode about people who struggled to communicate with each other and there were again there were these like glimpses over the course of our correspondence where i was like i feel like he is open to the idea that i'm actually innocent even if i'm not directly confronting him about it and then the pandemic was over.

37:04I booked a ticket. By this time I'm married. I have a one-year-old daughter. I tell my mom that I'm going to do this and she's pissed because she is not at all remotely curious about my prosecutor and thinks that this is all, I have Stockholm syndrome, that it's too dangerous for me to go back to Italy, that maybe my prosecutor is luring me there so that he can falsely accuse me of something else and just throw me in prison. And she's terrified for me. But to her credit, she doesn't tell me, no, you're not going. She says, you're not going without me. And so she books a ticket as well. And we all go together to Perugia, Italy.

37:54My dear friend from prison, Don Salos Garabatoli, the priest, he orchestrated a very private place for us to meet, and he moderated our conversation, which was incredibly helpful because it was very emotional for me, and it meant a lot for me to have someone there to have my back. And the way that the conversation went down was, it was that, like, me finally directly confronting him about the very difficult, hard truths that I was struggling with from our relationship, which was I'm an innocent person that he threw in prison despite overwhelming evidence of my innocence. And that was harmful not just to me, but to my family, to my boyfriend and his family, to the actual like my murdered friend's family who still were confused about who actually committed the crime or not.

38:47But I had also realized that in the course of getting ready for this conversation, that if I was going there to get something from him, some kind of acknowledgement or admission, I was going to fail. Like I was setting myself up for failure. And my success condition had to be what was I bringing to the table? And so what I brought to the table was an acknowledgement of his humanity, that I didn't think that his decision to put me through this experience meant that he was a bad person. And in fact, I recognized that he had noble intentions, even if he had strayed down the wrong path and had hurt innocent people along the way.

39:33Like, I didn't look at that and assume that he was a bad person who had bad intent. And he was very moved. He, you know, had never had an experience like this before, were someone that he had prosecuted had ever reached out to him. In fact, he wasn't even sure if it was legal for him to talk to me. Like he had to go check and he didn't want to meet with me until after he had retired. So that would those were like conditions for him. But he said that like the experience for him. Well, one, he didn't he didn't say he was sorry and he didn't say he was wrong. But he said that he realized that I was not the person that he thought he was prosecuting And that if he had the opportunity to prosecute the case again today, he would not.

40:22And that me reaching out to him was an experience of grace. His spiritual practice is Catholicism, and so what he felt like he was experiencing between me and him was grace. was that like it had that gravity that gravitas for him it was a life-changing event for him and he told me that he you know he cared deeply for me um he cared deeply for my family and we wished each other well and you know he kissed my cheeks he held my hand and we parted ways. And I walked away from that experience feeling just so powerful. Like I had never, like I had been so helpless my entire adult life and I had been so afraid of this person my entire adult life.

41:28And everything shifted as a matter of how I had approached that situation. I no longer felt like my well-being depended upon him. And in a weird way, it had sort of flipped. Suddenly I felt like I was holding him and his emotions and his vulnerability and his fragility in my hands, and I had to be careful. So being able to experience both sides of him was very grounding and it put things in perspective for me that helped in a in a weird backwards way helped me forgive him in in the sense that like again i wasn't tolerating or or saying that what he did was okay it was merely like being able to to see him as a person and care about him as a person.

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45:49Well, one thing I'm interested in is you said you went in with the intention to understand. And I'm just wondering whether understanding basically just is the precondition for forgiveness, which inexorably results from it. Yeah, I mean, I don't know what other people's experiences of forgiveness are and if it's important to them to understand the person. I know some people go in to forgiveness without having done the homework of really getting into the mind and the psychology of the person who hurt them. I don't know if that is a precondition, but it was for me. Like, for me to truly see this man as a person and not as a nightmare figure, like, I really had to see, I had to put myself in a position to see him in all of his, like, fragile, vulnerable humanity.

46:44and to put myself in a position also to be the recipient of his affection and of his goodwill. And that then led to this feeling of opening towards a person. I wonder if forgiveness is a reopening of yourself to people and to situations that you have closed yourself off to because they have been harmful. Like, I don't know if that's like I'm trying to feel like figure out if what I was experiencing was forgiveness or not. I just know that like I wasn't holding his crimes against me against him. That sounds like you dropped a hot coal you were holding in your hand. Yeah, yeah. And again, which isn't to say that like I was saying that it was okay and which isn't to say that it's not still impacting me because that's like a real like I'm still greatly impacted by the decisions that he made that have that still harm me to this day.

47:45but like the resentment towards him and was maybe the thing that dropped was like the acknowledgement that like he is a human being and he has hopes and dreams and has made mistakes and he's embarrassed and he's scared like realizing how scared he is really helped me have compassion for him because I know what it's like to be scared. And like, you know, I have I have toddlers who when things don't go their way, they throw a huge tantrum. And like, if anything, becoming a mom has also helped me to appreciate how a lot of society's ills are because people are afraid and because they haven't accepted that things aren't going their way.

48:35And so they're just lashing out and trying to like being able to hold that energy and also remain firm in like not just like taking it like I'm not just taking the whips, but like being able to hold firm, to be firm and gentle. Does that make sense? It reminds me of a story that I tell a lot on the show where an aspiring meditator asks a meditation teacher in India, you talk a lot about compassion, but what do I do when I leave this building and somebody tries to mug me and the teacher says, you take your umbrella and you compassionately whack him. so compassion does not have to be uh being a punching bag it can be quite fierce um but it's really about the mind that is is taking the action that's that's what matters yeah and like you're not inflicting pain on another person to for to inflict pain like there are boundaries and that you can set for yourself.

49:48And those might be painful for other people. Like the boundary might be, I'm not going to let you take my stuff. And if you try to take my stuff, I'll whack you with an umbrella. Like that's not going to be something that he wants to get. But you don't have to hate that person as you're doing it. You know, I really appreciate you being so open with your story at this point in, I would love to just step back for a second and think about some of the really, I mean, you've covered a lot of, you've covered a lot of really crucial points here, um, about how we can learn from your story. Um, we've talked about, uh, forgiveness or the dropping of resentment.

50:27We've talked about finding meaning in the worst possible things that can happen to you in your book. I believe one of your other practical pieces of advice, and you'll correct me if I'm wrong here, uh, is that there's, there's there's a little thing you can say to yourself when something bad happens to you, which is how could this be a good thing? Can you just say a little bit more about that? Yeah. So, oh, my God, this has been so helpful to me. And again, it kind of goes back to that, like Viktor Frankl realization of like, OK, even the most bad things can be changed into meaning of like can be made meaningful for you.

51:07But like, I think one of the things that can potentially happen in life is when things don't go our way or when something bad happens, what it feels like is an arresting of movement. Like you're going about your life and then suddenly you are stopped in your tracks and you are pinned down by this like hard, difficult thing that you didn't want. and it can feel like a stagnation. And one of the things that I have found really helpful is when something bad happens, and again, like bad sort of gets opened up to interpretation, like the great Zen masters will say every day is a good day because it's absurd to sort of say if a day is bad or good, Like every day is a day.

51:59It just is what it is. And there are lots of great parables that sort of suggest that when something happens to you, you don't actually know in the immediate moment if it is good or bad. But let's just say let's just say that like there are bad things that happen. Like your friend gets raped and murdered. Like that's a bad thing that happened. And or like you get convicted of a crime you didn't commit. This is a bad thing. You do not want this thing to happen. Anyone in the world would look on that and go, that is a bad thing that happened to you. Okay, fine. It's bad. But does it mean that my momentum has been arrested?

52:40Does that mean that like my purpose is thwarted? Or is there a way that this bad thing can give me momentum? Is there somehow that this bad thing can actually be in service to me somehow? How do I take the energy of this bad thing and divert it into something that pushes me forward or that carries me forward or that challenges me in a way that makes me a bigger person? And that's something that I feel like goes way back to my old soccer days where I would go running and running until I puked and it sucked and nobody likes to puke when they run. But like you're a better runner and you're a tougher person as a result of it.

53:31And so I think being deeply grounded in the idea that a bad thing has a lot of potential energy to it that you can harness for yourself. And like so when something bad happens like, you know, this came up in the documentary Mouth of the Wolf, where one of the reasons I went back to Italy three times. And one of the reasons I went back to Italy was because I was attempting to overturn my remaining wrongful conviction for a lesser crime in Italy. And I was found guilty again and I was not expecting it. I was fully prepared to be have my name totally cleared. and it wasn't and I was I had the very you know appropriate human response of being very upset but ultimately I was like how is this a good thing how like really genuinely asking myself how is this thing that feels like it is thwarting my life and insulting my experience and gaslighting me?

54:41How is this giving me momentum? How is this empowering me? And that has been a really useful framework so that I don't feel that sense of dread at my own life that we can feel when things don't go our way. It is such a useful and counterintuitive reframe of quote-unquote bad things that happen to you. For me, there has to be a little bit of a period of self-pity before I can wake up and get to the, okay, what's good in this? I need to go through the anger and all that other stuff. Does that make sense? Yeah, no, I don't think being in denial, and that's something that's really important to me.

55:26And it's something that's really important for, especially as I raise my kids, because I do think that something that made me really vulnerable very early on in the investigation was me not knowing how to process complex feelings of pain and grief.

55:48Coming home into a crime scene and somebody you know being horrifically murdered, that was not something that I was emotionally prepared for. and I think that that led to some of the people's early feelings of like not really knowing what to make of me because like I was all over the place emotionally sometimes I was crying sometimes I was like laughing because I was just so overwhelmed with like oh my god I'm alive like oh my god I'm I like I could have been killed like oh my god like there are so many emotions that I was processing and I wasn't really given much guidance in in how to process emotions and and how to understand what those emotions meant like I felt anger and I would be angry and I would rant at the police about how angry I was about this thing that happened and it was I think that all emotions are information and all emotions are useful and but like that we don't have to be a slave to our emotions.

56:56I think like we we're the ones who experience our emotions and we should definitely experience them because otherwise we're just repressing them. But then like as soon as we like allow ourselves to experiencing them, then it's not even it doesn't even feel like you're letting them go. It's just they they let themselves out the door kind of thing. Is that your experience too? I don't know. I feel like as soon as I like really let myself have the feeling, then it's like then it goes away on its own. You're metabolizing it. Yeah. It's the resistance or the compulsive re-upping of the emotion. Our mutual friend Sam Harris often talks about the half-life of an emotion like anger is a minute or two if you just sit with it.

57:43But we can extend it for a day, a week, a lifetime through mindless, you know, stewing and resentment and rumination. Re-triggering, just like reactivating the thing. Yeah. Most of us can remember being about 15 and feeling completely invisible or worse, extremely visible, but for the wrong reasons. I remember one year when I was a teenager, I had a pimple in the crevice of my nose for the entire year. I didn't like that. Either way, even if we have painful memories of that age, most of us tend to soften it in memory, and it was actually harder than we remember it now. That is the territory of Carrie, streaming October 7th on Prime Video, the first ever television adaptation of Stephen King's Carrie.

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1:00:29That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R dot com. Wayfair, every style, every home. Wayfair, every style, every home. So let me ask you another question that about the what we can learn practically from your experience. You were, through no fault of your own, turned into this negative caricature, Foxy Noxy. You know, you're they're making hay out of you in the tabloids. And I'm curious, what have you learned as a result of that experience about something that we all deal with, which is other people thinking and talking about us in ways that we feel are deeply unfair and inaccurate? Yeah, this is something that I talk about a lot in the Resilience series on the Waking Up app is that is this issue of identity and the self, like that, which is a which is a deeper layer to that.

1:01:23So when it comes to identity and the problem of identity, like we are social animals that are codependent and deeply embedded with each other. And when our identities are distorted and stolen from us and we feel like we have no say in how we belong to the rest of humanity, that is an incredibly distressing experience. It's a distressing experience and it is a debilitating experience. But something that I have discovered is that there are aspects of our identity, of our sense of self, that belong to us. And then there are aspects of our identity and our sense of self that don't belong to us. Like the part of me that exists in another person's mind doesn't actually belong to me, nor am I really responsible for it, which is great because I think that one trap that we find ourselves in is feeling like we need to take responsibility for how other people think of us.

1:02:32And that's a trap because we don't we can't we don't have responsibility for that. And we can't we can't have any say in that. But I think the more deeper issue is. What does it mean to me that my who I am like the story of who I am is a certain way in certain people's minds, like in a very practical way, as we exist as individuals who interact with each other and have jobs and have relationships and have families? like it matters a great deal in the sense that like it impacts my my opportunities in life that doesn't mean though that you don't have a say or that can't give you momentum like I've learned to there is sort of like potential energy that's in the story of who you are that's out there in the world and if you can learn to harness that potential energy you can you can you can have an impact.

1:03:32It has an impact on you and you can have an impact on it. So I am actively in conversation with that story that is out there about me. And I acknowledge, I don't pretend that it doesn't exist as I move about my life. I am the girl who was accused of murder. I am not in denial about that. I'm also someone who has learned a great deal from it, which is why I can have a lovely conversation with you about it. I am not just limited to that story that exists in other people's minds. I can build off of it. But then from a deeper, deeper level, what even is this thing that is Amanda Knox? Like it's an idea of me, but like when I ultimately sit down, there's a stillness and it doesn't really matter what that story is because when it all comes down to it, all we have is the stillness that is here right now.

1:04:36Like there's like this deep sense of like peace and relief that I feel when I meditate. And I recognize that like, I don't have to be perpetually swept up in the story of who I am as it appears to me on a day-to-day basis. And being able to just step away from it, even for just 20 minutes a day, to rest in the thing that is always true and always there, which is just an awareness of everything and a stillness. Like there's a deep sense of peace that like the story of who I am is like just the tip of the iceberg, you know? Yeah, when you sit down, the way I think about it is you sit down in meditation, in the right kind of meditation or in certain styles of meditation, you can get a glimpse of what the Buddhists call emptiness or the insubstantiality of reality.

1:05:46We, to us, it looks like a solid movie, but as anybody who's a film buff knows, you look at a movie being projected on a screen, it's actually 24 individual pictures per second. So what happens when you look at your mind in meditation is you see, oh my God, things are moving so quickly from thought to itch in my knee to back pain, back to more thinking. Life is not as solid as we think it is. looked at from that angle what your cousin is saying behind your back to your brother-in-law doesn't really fucking matter that much and i mean what's so interesting what's so paradoxical is it matters and it doesn't matter and it depends on where you're standing like you know like it's and you can have like there's just something so liberating about even just allowing yourself a moment to be like, ha ha ha, that doesn't matter.

1:06:44Like, it's just like it for me, I find an immense amount of like satisfaction and relief in in that moment of being like, doesn't it doesn't matter. And also like you matter and I matter and we all matter and we also don't matter. Like, it's OK. It's just OK. Like, we're OK. It's this probably the central paradox of the spiritual life that we We things matter immensely and they don't matter at all. And you you my understanding of a skillful spiritual navigation through life or contemplative navigation through life. If you don't like the word spiritual, which I don't love either, is just moving between these two perspectives and letting them aerate one another.

1:07:31So you go too far in caring about everything that's happening. That's there's a lot of misery there. You go too far toward that. It's all an illusion. Well, then you get pretty quickly to nihilism. But the two can blend together to help you in these moments when you're too caught up. OK, remember the perspective of emptiness or if you're too dissociated. remember that actually, yeah, the kindness with which you treat your neighbor does matter. It does, yeah. Yeah. I mean, for me, the measure of whether or not I'm living a good life is how much I'm able to, I think it's the way that I think about it is heaviness and lightness and how like you're able to like hold, like if you're able to hold heaviness from this like place of lightness and then also you're like as a heavy person, you're able to hold like lightness gently.

1:08:30Like that for me feels like the right approach. And there's always that tension and that balance between heaviness and lightness. Let me sneak in one last question here about a practical thing that you've learned the hard way that could benefit us. All of us, or at least most of us, have the propensity to fall into victim narratives. You, more than almost anybody I've ever met, deserve the right to do that. And yet victimhood, you're welcome. And yet victimhood really doesn't ultimately serve us that well. And you have found one way to kind of reframe victimhood through this ancient Japanese art of, I hope I'm going to pronounce this correctly, kintsugi.

1:09:16What is that all about? Well, I'll explain kintsugi. So kintsugi, and I'm sure a lot of people are familiar with it, but it's this practice of taking broken things, particularly bowls or cups, porcelain objects, and sometimes even purposefully breaking them so that you can repair them and highlight the broken, you know, the cracks and the broken parts of the object as like that is the object of beauty. The fact that it was broken and that it has come back together and it is really highlighting those broken parts. And I think that they're stronger as a result of having been broken because those cracks are now filled in with harder materials in the same way that scar tissue can be considered something that is a sign of pain but also of resilience and a sign of having lived and survived.

1:10:18And when I look at the bad things that happen to us, again, like I see them as opportunities that they have in them, embedded in them, potential energy. Like if we're lucky enough to survive them, like there is potential energy that we can harness and that gives us momentum and that can be in the service of us as we build ourselves as human beings who are on this journey. Like, I see the value in taking those bad experiences and taking or retaking a sense of ownership and agency over them and not feeling like they're just things that are inflicted upon you from other people. But you have the you have a responsibility in processing how those slings and arrows impact you and change you, because it's not ultimately the thing that someone does you that changes you.

1:11:11It's how you process that and taking responsibility for that is a pushing back against that victim narrative that like you because something bad happens to you, you're necessarily a lesser or worse person as a result of it. Another terrible negative mindset that is self-inflicting a wound is when you feel like because you've been victimized that you deserve a life that is better than other people's or that is easier than other people's because you've already had it hard. And that's just that's again that's putting that second arrow in yourself that like you're disappointed that your life isn't what you think it should be.

1:11:46So those are all like those are there are a lot of traps to victimhood because it makes you feel like again things should be a certain way now that you've been harmed. And instead, I think the there is like it's I don't think that people should just deny that they've been victimized. Like I I very affirmly assert like I have been harmed. I shouldn't have harmed. But like how that has impacted me as a person is my responsibility, not anyone else's. Well said. Amanda Knox, you have taken this horrific miscarriage of justice and instead of becoming bitter and broken, you've turned it into something really helpful for the rest of us.

1:12:31So yeah, thanks for your time. Thanks for doing that. Yeah, thank you. Thanks for having me. I'm 10 % happier. I'll take it. I do want to remind people of the name of your book. And if you're watching, you can see it right over her left shoulder. It's called FREE in all caps. And she also has this documentary. documentary Mouth of the Wolf, which is an Italian expression. And you can understand the derivation of it and the execution of it. If you watch it, it's on Hulu. And she has a resilient series on my friend Sam Harris's excellent meditation app, which is called Waking Up. I should say I'm a little bit partial to my own meditation app.

1:13:13Having said that, I love Sam. And it's possible to have subscriptions to both. And if you want to subscribe, you can go to wakingup.com slash 10%, which may be the actual URL. Yeah. Thank you again, Amanda. So, so nice to meet you and thanks for doing this. I really appreciate it. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Thank you so much. Just a quick note before I let you go. If you're a listener to the show and you're looking for other ways to engage with my content, let me give you some options. Your first stop is danharris.com. That's my new website and it has information and links to my meditation app. It's where you can sign up for my free newsletter.

1:13:48It's where you will find all the latest information on upcoming live events that I'm doing. We've also got 10 % Happier Plus, which is an ad-free subscription right inside Apple Podcasts. So that's another option. And if you would rather watch than listen, we film every episode now. Video versions are up on YouTube and Spotify. So please like and follow whether you're watching or listening. Also, I'm on social media. I try to inject a little sanity into your feed, into the darker corners of the internet. So just search for my name, Dan Harris, and you'll find me wherever you have a scrolling habit.

1:14:22All right, that was a mouthful. Thank you for being here. Deuces. Thank you so much to everybody who worked so hard to make this show. 10 % Happier is produced by Tara Anderson, Marissa Schneiderman, DJ Kashmir, David Hart, and Hayden Broom. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. and Nick Thorburn of the indie rock band Islands wrote our theme. Thanks for listening. Peace.

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