Anxiety, Overthinking, and Overwhelm: Buddhist Hacks For Changing Your Mind | Joseph Goldstein

32:35but to use it as a way of appreciating the good qualities in ourselves, appreciating the good qualities in others, and it changes the dial. Here's another phrase that I think is perhaps more center of the bullseye that can jar you out of a state of rumination and kind of give you some perspective. It's not fill in the blank. Yes. This is something I've used forever. But especially after I began teaching and working with people and I extended it from just applying it in my own practice as a teaching tool. If people are struggling with some difficulty and really caught up in the struggle and they don't have perspective on it.

33:26So, I'll use a reference to whatever current situation is happening at that time. And so, for a long time, I would say, it's not Bosnia. It's not the Sudan. It's not Gaza. You know, and just reminding people of the situations where the suffering was a much, much, much greater magnitude than our little struggle. Now, that has to be used also wisely. Because if people are really involved in something, for example, that's deeply traumatic, that would not be inappropriate to you. Because it might feel like those situations because of the intensity of the suffering. So this is useful for more mundane, run of the mill suffering entanglements, kvetching about one thing or another.

34:34Kvetching for the non-Jewish or non-Jewish adjacent is Yiddish for complaining. A phrase that was used a lot on me when I was a boy.

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36:45Hey, Chicagoland, the Wayfair store is in your neighborhood at Edens Plaza and Wilmette. Finally, you can feel the fabric, sit on the sectionals, and even open the refrigerators. Plus, our in-store designers will help you bring it all together with free one-on-one design support for any project on any budget. Yep, we said free. Oh, and did we mention the cafe? So what are you waiting for? Come see all that's in store. Visit the Wayfair store today at Edens Plaza and Wilmette. Wayfair, every style, every home. This expression that I'm going to propose to you next feels really apropos to me. The wisdom of the non-toothache.

37:23So to my understanding is the wisdom of the non-toothache is can you appreciate when things are going well, when you don't have a toothache? To me, that can put my obsessive thoughts into perspective. Does that make sense? Yes, it does make sense. And you've expressed it perfectly. It's actually right in line with some teachings right from the Satipatthana Sutta, the discourse on the foundations of mindfulness. So the Buddha actually addressed it directly, but not using toothache as an example, but in the third foundation of mindfulness, which is mindfulness of the mind, one of the categories is be mindful when, for example, the hindrances, one of the hindrances like desire, aversion, restlessness.

38:19Be mindful when they're present, be mindful when they're not present. And it's interesting that it's much harder to remember to be mindful when they're not present, because when they are present, they make themselves known, you know, with a lot of fanfare. When they're not present, there's nothing strikingly obvious about it. unless we pay attention. And so that emphasis on being mindful when things are going well, when the mind is calm, when the mind is peaceful, when there's not a lot of suffering or any in the mind at that particular time, as you said, to acknowledge that is really helpful.

39:06And we have many more moments of that in the day than we realize. So again, it's encouraging to be including the non-toothache in our field of awareness. Here's another phrase that I've heard you use that is quite useful when one is caught in a thought storm, which can last years, really. And I remember the first time you used it with me, I was a little pissed off because I didn't really understand what you were saying. I remember we were standing on a street corner in New York. It was very early in our friendship. And I was just describing the fact that my wife and I were in the middle of a long infertility struggle.

39:55And you were very sympathetic. You did not dismiss it at all. But toward the end of the discussion, you said, if it's not one thing, it's another. And I didn't really take it in the spirit in which it was intended. But it's something I've thought about a lot since then. So what do you mean by that phrase? That phrase relates to another phrase, which explains it perfectly. The other phrase is what I think is a fantastic expression of the first noble truth of the Buddha's teachings, like core foundational teachings of the Buddha. And this is across almost all Buddhist traditions, other teachings on the four noble truths.

40:46The truth of suffering, dukkha in Pali, the cause of suffering, which is craving, the end of suffering, which is coming to the end of craving, and then the noble eightfold path, which is the way to accomplish this aim. So that first noble truth, the truth of dukkha, the definition of dukkha that I came across and I thought was just so brilliantly succinct, that dukkha is the inevitability of unwanted experiences. And I think that's something everyone can relate to in their lives. There's no one who goes through life free of unwanted experiences. At times, they are inevitable. So that's really what, if it's not one thing, it's another.

41:45If it's not one unwanted experience, there's going to be another one. Because they are inevitable in this conditioned world. And I love that because it normalizes the fact that it happens and that it will happen inevitably. So it's not a mistake that they're happening. And so once we see it in that broader perspective, I think it helps us have a perspective on what the particular unwanted experience is. and if we have a broader perspective, I think we can better see how to address it. Is there something I can do about it? Is there not? What would be the right course of action? So all of that can be considered, but that's very different than thinking it's a mistake or getting worked up with a lot of aversion to the fact that it's happening because we think it shouldn't be happening.

42:48So, another example of this, and again this touches into basic teachings of the Buddha. And we may have talked about this a little bit before, I'm not sure. The Buddha suggested certain reflections on the inevitability of unwanted experiences. The Buddha suggested that we reflect on this daily. when he said, what has the nature to grow old, will grow old, and I am not exempt. What has the nature to become ill, will become ill, and I am not exempt. What has the nature to die, will die, and I am not exempt. So, what's interesting to me, as I reflected on this and have it come to mind, the first part was quite obvious, that what has been nature to grow old will grow old.

43:52It was the tagline of I am not exempt, which even though, of course, intellectually, I knew that I am not exempt, I could often detect an underlying feeling, almost subliminal, well, I should be exempt, you know, of somehow framing an issue, why is this happening to me? So that why is it happening to me is a reflection of some holding to the idea that I should be exempt from what is this completely natural unfolding. And this is all about coming to realize the first noble truth. So to me, these feel like a sweet S-U-I-T-E of interrelated phrases when you're in or when I'm in a woe is me state.

44:53So the inevitability of unwanted experience. I mean, this is just the truth of things. Unwanted states are going to happen. I am not exempt. I would just say as a sidebar, and I am not exempt. The contemplation of your mortality is not a bad way to jar you out of overthinking. It's a great bolus of perspective. and then finally if it's not one thing it's another you know we live i have lived much of my life and i still do this with the lie that if i could just solve this problem or maybe this suite of problems elision fields like it's all good but of course there's going to be another thing and so it just kind of just settled back into the situation with a little bit more sanity be in patience, let me just deal with this problem because I know there's going to be something on the other side.

45:47And then I would add, I know I said, finally, I would add maybe one other phrase that we haven't discussed yet as the fourth in this little package. Anything can happen anytime. Yes. It's all a package of phrases addressing this issue. So do you want a little backstory? Please, please. This again goes back quite a few years. I was teaching a retreat for social and environmental activists at this wilderness retreat center in northern New Mexico. Beautiful place, Valle Citos Mountain Refuge. Beautiful in the middle of Carson National Forest, 9 ,000 feet, alpine stream running through it. It was beautiful.

46:33So doing the retreat, and then on the last day, we did a hike on the very last day of the retreat. There was a small river running through the property. And so we were hiking up along the small river and kind of scrambling over the rocks, you know, crossing back and forth. It was fantastic. On the way back, it had rained the night before, so some of the rocks were a little slippery and walking back, I slipped on a rock and hyperextended my knee. and I knew something, an unwanted experience that just happened. Anyway, I make it back to the center. That evening, I was giving the Dharma talk and I had the thought, oh, don't sit cross-legged.

47:19This won't be good. But I overrode the thought. I didn't listen to it. Sat cross-legged. At the end, I couldn't get up. I had to be carried back to my room, which was very embarrassing. is first, I'm 6 '3". I forget how exactly I was carried. Anyway, I carried back that whole night. I had a busy summer schedule planned, and I just kept thinking, how am I going to manage this? I couldn't even walk from the meditation hall to my room. So a lot of thinking and worrying and anxiety. And then at a certain point, and it took most of the night to come to this, at some point, the thought came to my mind, anything can happen anytime, completely unexpected, with ramifications for how the rest of my summer was going to unfold.

48:20Anything can happen anytime. But surprisingly, some people might hear that, and they might think that it leads to a kind kind of paranoid state, you know, fearful, say, oh my God, anything can happen anytime. We have to be on the watch out. It was exactly the opposite. It was the acknowledgement of the truth of it. And it just led to this quality of acceptance in my mind. The inevitability of unwanted experiences. Anything can happen anytime. So if we're aware of that and realize this, this is the truth of how things are, then when these things happen we can deal with it with much more equipoise we deal with it as best we can but it's from a much more peaceful place of mind and my mind did become peaceful in it and then i just took care of it as best i could things were fun this is an aside not only fine, so that I was scheduled to teach in Germany that summer.

49:25Anyway, I managed to go with a lot of accommodation, you know, for my knee. Taught this course in Germany. At the end of the chorus, the Dana Biskit, there were two of us. Some guy put in two$50 ,000 checks in the Dana. He had just said he came from this super wealthy family. Parents had just died, I think. He had inherited his fortune. And I had had this thought, oh, maybe I shouldn't go.

50:00So sometimes anything that happened anytime can be on the good side as well. That was an amazing moment. Yeah, yeah.

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51:35Finally, you can feel the fabric, sit on the sectionals and even open the refrigerators. Plus, our in-store designers will help you bring it all together with free one-on-one design support for any project on any budget. Yep, we said free. Oh, and did we mention the cafe? So what are you waiting for? Come see all that's in store. Visit the Wayfair store today at Edens Plaza and Wilmette. Wayfair, every style, every home. Just to reset, I think, you know, we started this conversation talking about dealing with overthinking specifically. and we're moving into an area that kind of is inclusive of overthinking but also of just how to navigate a complex chaotic world more skillfully in the face of the non-negotiable truth of change flux there's another phrase that's coming to mind that i find really beautiful and it comes directly from the Buddha, becoming otherwise.

52:35Yes. So I came across this phrase in the text and to reiterate just a point I made in a previous discussion that I've been in the practice now of listening to the teachings rather than reading them. Because I must have read that phrase many, many times and it didn't impact me. But when I heard it in the Buddha's description of change, of things always becoming otherwise. When I heard it, it really struck me in a completely new and vivid way because it's a bit unusual in English. It's not a typical way we would talk of change and impermanence. And because of that, we could say, you know, everything changes.

53:23And it's kind of flat. It's so obvious when we say it that way that we don't really appreciate what it's saying, but things are always becoming otherwise. As a phrase, for me, made it very immediate. Like in every moment, things are always becoming otherwise. I have found it to be a really good reminder at times. For example, I might be going for a walk, and then I have a little twitch in my knee or my back or something. Oh, becoming otherwise. So instead of, oh no, what just happened? Do I have to do something and all of that? Oh, just things becoming otherwise. So it reinforces our awareness that this is the nature of things.

54:19And again, it doesn't imply that in certain situations we do want to do something about it. but it frees us from that reactivity of why me, which is really helpful because even though we may not even articulate why me to ourselves, very often we're thinking it silently. There's some flavor of it in our minds and just things becoming otherwise. This is just the nature of things. So I find it a very helpful and usefully pointed phrase to highlight that. I find it really helpful in my relationship with my parents. I have a very clear visual of the first time I think that you met my parents. We were in the backyard of my childhood home.

55:10It was our first meeting to discuss launching a meditation app in like 2014 or something. and my parents were still living in my childhood home and they were healthy and active. They were both academic physicians at Harvard and really for me, my whole life, the kind of my alpha and omega. I heard this beautiful phrase, not from you, of there was some writer talking about some other important person in his or her life. And he or she said, they are the theater for my actions. nothing felt real unless my parents knew about it and they're now living in an assisted living facility near me in suburban new york and my mom's pretty sharp but my dad is you know he has become otherwise he's still lovely loving i think quite happy person but you know he's had a lot of health problems stroke and a parkinson's like diagnosis and i felt so unmoored by their transition and still do at times, but it's just things becoming otherwise.

56:11Yes, yes. It's so interesting that, I don't know if resistance is the right word or just delusion, that somehow with something so obviously true that we don't take it in. We don't live as if it's true. So that's quite mysterious. and also kind of a reason why the practice of mindfulness and awareness is so liberating, because we're just giving ourselves a framework for investigating what is so obviously true that we have been overlooking. True and painful at the same time. Yes. Although in opening to the truth of it, some dimensions of the pain are eliminated, which is our reactivity and all. Yes.

57:06I think I'm less resistant and more tuned in, more sad. Yeah. The poignancy of it. Yes. But for me, the emotion of sadness, there's a certain soft beauty to it, which distinguishes, for me, from unhappiness. That you can be sad and not unhappy. To me, that's just a useful understanding. because many situations in our life are sad, even when we realize their inevitability. That's fine. None of what we're talking about implies that we become emotionally flat. But there are certain emotions which are afflictive, which really causes suffering and are not particularly helpful. But other emotions which may be acknowledging the same situation are quite natural and even have a beauty to them.

58:02The first time you said that to me, I did not like it, or I didn't get it. But it makes sense when you think about the term bittersweet. They've combined bitter and sweet for a reason. Where this leads me in my mind in terms of having an ongoing flow in the conversation, as I'm sitting here feeling sad talking about my parents, you have a phrase that's been very helpful for me with all kinds of emotions, whether they're afflictive or not. And this is going to sound simplistic, but it's not. And the phrase is, it's okay. As with many of the others, there is a story. There is a story. And I think the story will help to elucidate what that really means.

58:50So for many years earlier on in my practice, the strongest afflictive emotion was fear. So fear would just come up in so many different ways. But on some retreats, you know, I was really practicing intensively so things get magnified in that context. Fear would be coming up and it would come up so strongly there were times when I was afraid to go from sitting to standing. So it's completely irrational. Completely. I mean, it doesn't make any sense at all. But somehow that was the energy that was coming up for whatever reason. I have no idea why that was so strong. So it's just to say I was working with this emotion over a long time, over many years, not at that intensity mostly, but was still there.

59:47So on one retreat, a couple of years after that intense experience, I was doing walking meditation and I could feel different aspects of fear arising in the mind. and then something shifted in my mind. I could feel the shift and it was expressed in the phrase, if this fear is here for the rest of my life, it's okay. It's okay. And I realized that that was the first moment in these years of practice that I genuinely accepted it. And this points to another really important distinction in meditation, the difference between recognition and mindfulness. Because in all those years, I recognized what was there.

1:00:42I knew it was fear, and I could name it as fear. But it was always through the filter of not liking it and wanting it to go away, because it's a very unpleasant emotion. So I was living at it through the filter of aversion. which, as we just discussed earlier, aversion feeds the very thing we're averse to. So unknowingly, I was keeping it going through my aversion to it, and through the delusion of thinking I was being mindful when I was not. I was just recognizing it. So in that moment, if this fear is here for the rest of my life, it's okay. In that acceptance, it was amazing. In that moment, in that shift, the whole ball, compacted ball of fear, washed through.

1:01:39And just my heart relaxed. It's okay. And it's not to say that fear never comes again, because it does at times, but relationship to it is now completely different. When it arises, it's okay. It's okay to feel the fear. It's okay to feel unpleasantness. We don't have to default to aversion towards it. And in that acceptance, everything becomes more workable. And lighter, we're letting go of that strong identification with it. So it's okay has just, I call it the magic mantra. It's okay. It's okay to feel it. And again, it doesn't mean that we never do anything in response to what may be happening.

1:02:31but when we're coming from the place of it's okay to feel it, then our response will be more effective, wiser, more skillful. Right. Passivity is a misunderstanding. This is about not being at war with reality first and then responding wisely. I like your phrase, at war with reality. I stole it from somebody, I'm sure. But this phrase, it's okay, I think reminds me of at least two other phrases that I've heard from you. Both of them, I think, are borrowed. One is borrowed from a poet and the other is borrowed from your next-door neighbor, Sharon Salzberg. The one from the poet, I think it's Robert Frost, is the only way out is through.

1:03:19I don't know where that comes from. Oh, so you may have said. No, no, I'm sure that I read it someplace. Doesn't quite sound like Robert Frost, but maybe. I have no idea. I don't read poetry. Other than yours, I don't read poetry. Anyway, it's a good phrase, whoever first coined it. So what's interesting is, unpacking a little bit, is what through means. The only way out is through. Because you could get through by bulldozing your way through. which may create its own problems, or the way out is through a mindful acceptance of what's there, seeing its impermanent, empty nature, so that we're not contracting in response to it.

1:04:09We're staying with whatever it is in a balanced, mindful, aware, equanimous way. And then we do. That leads us through in a very skillful way. another phrase the one from your next door neighbor is well i'm not gonna say the phrase i'll just have you tell the story and the phrase is the punchline it harkens back to our discussion of your struggles with fear you are on a retreat with sharon where it came up you want to tell that story yeah this was during those years when i was really working with it and then not yet come to it's okay so i was still trying to figure out you know we were teaching together in texas and after lunch we were just going for a walk together and I was going on complaining about all this fear because I was building a whole superstructure of self on top of this emotion.

1:05:02This is the way I am. I will always be this way. Exactly. And so I was just going on and on about this and at a certain point Sharon turned to me and she said, Joseph, it's just a mind state and sometimes it's just the right moment to hear something, that was one of those moments. Oh, right. This is just a mind state, and I'm making up this whole big self story about it. And that really helped to reframe the whole thing. It's just a mind state. It was really helpful, just a reminder. Well, I hear it not only as useful in terms of it maybe taking a few of the Jenga pieces out of the structure of self, the superstructure of self, but also the relief in knowing, yeah, this is a mind state and like everything else, it will pass.

1:05:56Yes. Yes. That is how I heard it also. The meaning of it's just a mind state includes that. Yeah. I want to get one phrase in because I kind of teased it earlier. It might be in the ballpark of a non sequitur, but earlier we were talking about how to, in the face of our constant flurry of thoughts, how to figure out which ones to listen to, which ones not to listen to. You said being mindful of them is really step number one. There's a phrase that has been helpful for me once I'm mindful of my thoughts to pick and choose a little bit more carefully. It's a lens, a pair of goggles that has been really helpful for me.

1:06:36And at first it sounded a little anodyne to me, but it actually has, as with many of these phrases, The more I've sat with it, the more meaning it has accumulated. And it is what matters most. You know, I'm always interested as you give the buildup to the phrase, and I don't really know what phrase you're leading to. So I'm always waiting with excited anticipation. You know, and I'm always sitting here thinking, is he going to shake his head at me disapprovingly and say, what are you talking about? It has nothing to do with anything. which has happened in the course of these recordings, just to say.

1:07:16So what's the phrase? Are you asking that seriously?

1:07:25The phrase is what matters most. What matters most. I think the use of that phrase just really is a way of, just in the moment, stepping back from whatever the decision is that has to be made, and just taking a moment, and it can be quite intuitive. I don't think this requires a lot of thinking. I think we would know quite intuitively and quickly, if we take that moment to step back, does this really align with my values? Is this in alignment with what I value most? I think it's a very intuitive thing, but very illuminating. I think we know, you know, if we're about to do something and it's just really being motivated by greed, and it couldn't be a big greed, you know, it could be a little, a little greed, but often in the course of the day, we're kind of on autopilot.

1:08:31we're just going through the day doing what we do, you know, reacting and doing this and that. And I think we often don't take the time to just have in the background of our minds the framework of what is most important to you, you know, what our values really are. So even occasionally, you know, to start with, if one could remember before doing something to ask that question, can be really helpful. We've talked in earlier sessions about a right speech, you know, and some papalapa, the useless talk, and all the other kinds of right and wrong speech. That's such a good, very simple arena. Oh, is what I'm about to say, does it really align with my values?

1:09:22Does it unite people or divide people? Just some very simple things. And as I say, I'm not suggesting that we spend 10 minutes trying to figure out our values and does this align or doesn't it align. I think it's a much more intuitive process that would come quite easily if we just practice taking that moment to allow for it. I agree. It is an intuitive process. I would only add that I have, especially when I'm working with my team and I'm in the process of an early stage startup, it's very helpful in order to define or discern your values to ask the question, what matters most. Yes. And in that situation, there could be a whole process, a whole reflective process of actually sitting down and writing down, okay, what are my values in this situation?

1:10:24There are ethical values or disservice values, compassion values, whatever they may be. Yes, so in certain situations, I agree that it could be helpful to expand it beyond that momentary intuitive sense to a real reflection and examination of what our values actually are. So it's been a great conversation in my view on sort of, we started with overthinking and moved into sort of how to manage an anxiety producing world and anxiety itself. Before we take a break, anything you feel like getting off your chest? Anything else coming to mind? He's looking at me and I can read his mind. What he's thinking is there are a lot of complaints about, I have about you, Harris, but they may not be relevant to this conversation.

1:11:12Am I reading you correctly? No. No? No. Okay. Not in the slightest. It wasn't even in the ballpark. You had that mischievous look on your face. Yeah, no, but the look was, I was thinking of an example of that reflecting on values. So it might have been a little quizzical look. I wasn't sure whether it would be worth adding to it or not. So let's talk about that. Let's talk about your... Now that I brought it up.

1:11:48I rarely have the thoughts that you ascribe to me, Justin, so you can relax. I mean, that just doesn't, it's not a strong pattern in my mind. No, I know you meant, even if I had been guessing correctly, I was guessing that you were going to say it from a standpoint of humor. Yeah. Anyway, let me give that little example. Yeah, yeah. As an example of a situation where reflecting on one's values could be really helpful, and it's something I suggested to this friend, he's in quite a senior position in a company and was thinking about the next step, possibly moving on to a different position. and there were a lot of pros and cons to the different opportunities that were presenting themselves to him, which involved, you know, perhaps moving or dealing with the school's first kids, just a lot of considerations.

1:12:51But there were situations which might have afforded him more, a higher position, something like that. So as we were talking, he was just talking it over with me. And I suggested to him, you know, I think you and your wife together should sit down and just look at, okay, in your life now, what is it you most value? And then consider these different opportunities in the light of those values. Because I think it's very easy to become seduced by the glitter of some possible outcome and ignore other values that we might have. So I think it can be a really helpful way to navigate through life so that we, as much as possible, are doing things in alignment with what we value, rather than being caught up in, as I said, the glitter of some possibility and overlook them.

1:13:54Yes, reverse engineer from the first thing.

1:14:00Thank you so much to everybody who works so hard to make this show. 10 % Happier is produced by Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Kashmir is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the great indie rock band Islands wrote our theme. Also, one last thing before you go, remember to sign up for my new app, which is called 10 % with Dan Harris. You can sign up over at danharris.com. On the app, you'll find a growing library of meditations from world-class teachers.

1:14:35Add free access to the full expertise of our podcast guests, meaning you'll get this podcast with no ads. exclusive live stream events, which we do weekly, sometimes twice a week, robust discussion threads to connect you with our team, with our teachers and with one another. There's a free 14 day trial if you want to try before you buy. Peace.

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