Brené Brown On: How To Succeed Without Being a Bullying, Bullshitting, Power-Hungry Jerk Face

25:23Brené Brown:And it felt so dismissive and I'm eating, drinking and breathing this task and it felt hard. And I said, that would have felt hard for me too. I appreciate you sharing how you got under the line. I apologize. And then we moved on. I mean, I can tell you that two days ago I was talking to my husband. I said, I texted my son. I haven't heard back yet. Oh God. You know what? This is ridiculous. Like, you know, like if you want to be treated like an adult, you've got to text like an adult. He just looked at me and I said, I'm under the line, right? And he goes, yeah, it's easy to get there though.

25:56Brené Brown:I get it. And I said, okay, I am under the line. Why are you scared? I don't know. It's just, I loved having him home all summer and now he's back in school and feels lonely a little bit. And he's like, yeah, we had a hundred fishing trips this summer and it feels, it's hard. I said, it is. And I said, it's pretty okay for a 20 year old not to text you back within 30 minutes, but I'm under the line. I don't know. I can't tell you really, Dan, like when I work with leaders, what they say to me, I didn't, I didn't develop this. I'm just the, I just share it and help people think through it, what it means to people.

26:34Brené Brown:Like I was talking to a senior vice president and he shared this in front of the entire, his entire cohort of leaders, a hundred and something leaders and a huge company. I just asked the whole group, I said, what kind of tools are you putting in practice and how's it working, what's landing, what's sucking. And one of the most stoic kind of top leaders said, I was giving feedback to a direct report and I just stopped in the middle and said, I'm under the line. This is not productive. And the guy I was giving feedback said, I am so far under the line, I've missed the last 10 minutes of this conversation.

27:09Brené Brown:And he said, I really appreciate it. Can we step away from this for a couple of hours and come back? He said, yeah. Like, we're just human, you know? And I think to have language that says, I'm in some fear and I'm not driving right now. Fear's got the wheel. I'm not even riding shotgun. I'm tied up in the trunk right now. I'm just along for the ride at this point. And I gave some examples in the book. I shared my personal examples, which was somewhat humbling of the language I use when I'm under the line. My hero is always, I'll do it myself. My victim is no one understands. And my villain is really, I don't give a shit what you think.

27:59Brené Brown:This is how we're going to do it. I go full on bad guy. And sometimes as someone who studies metacognition and self-awareness, I would say that sometimes my language, I know that I'm in fear by what I'm saying before I know what I'm feeling. So when I recognize that drama triangle language, I'm like, oh, I'm scared right now. Does that make sense? Yeah, it's like the, well, it kind of goes back to what you were saying before about having trouble finding your ground initially with your trainer. For you, the sort of introception or somatic awareness isn't going to be the most salient thing. It's going to be what's coming out of your mouth.

28:47And that's kind of the mindfulness bell for you.

28:50Brené Brown:It is. And so when I see myself like, oh, I'm embarrassed to say, but it's deeply human and flawed. Yeah. And that's me, deeply human and flawed. Hi, my name is Brené. I'm deeply human and flawed. Hello, Brené. But every now and then when I can see myself, like my veins sticking out in my neck and I'm saying something like, we're packing parachutes here. 90 % is not good enough. Do you want to jump out of a plane where the excellence rate is 90 % for packing parachutes? Then I'm like, oh my God. I'm like Michael from The Office. Like, what are you doing? But I can be scary when I'm scared. Coming up, Brene Brown talks about how to put the below slash above the line practice into work in your own life and relationships and why paradox is an elite level skill.

29:55Brené Brown:This Monday.com ad was created by a team of people and AI agents. The agents wrote the copy and managed the timelines, while our human creative director made sure it all made sense. Easy. Create your own AI agent today on Monday.com. I just love that you're open about your flaws and failures and foibles, And I just relate to many of the things you're describing yourself. I can interpolate back to my own behaviors as a leader and can cringe and hopefully laugh at them and myself. Let me just dig in a little bit on the above slash below the line practice very practically so I can see how it works within an organization.

30:38That seems very clear. You just get in the habit of it's a shared language and you get in the habit of calling it out in yourself and inquiring about it in others. What about for an individual? How do I make this a part of my life? How do you make it a part of your life to use this as a kind of guiding heuristic?

30:58Brené Brown:I mean, at work, it's a system we put in place that is kind of a collective capability. At home, we've also built it into a system. So I think about James Clear, we don't rise to the level of our goals, we fall to the level of our systems. And I think inside of my family system, inside my friend system, I work with both my sisters, which is one of the most amazing and sometimes hard things in the whole world. We all do a lot of therapy and one of the sisters is a therapist, which is a real pain in the ass on occasion. She's like, do you have feelings about that? And I'm like, oh God, fuck off.

31:39Brené Brown:Okay. No, I don't. I do, but I don't want to talk to them about you, with you. But I think I use it the same way at home. I listen for the language of hero, victim, and villain. I really listen for that language. And to me, I think it's become part of my marriage lexicon. like it wouldn't be unusual for me to say well what about this and steve's like no dude you know what not now and not in an hour maybe in four i'm so under the line right now we're not talking about this right i cannot talk about this right now like it's a way for us to say i'm not in a co-creating coaching challenging space fear is driving right now this is not going to be helpful And so to me, I just look for the same language.

32:34Brené Brown:The topic might change, but I can be scary when I'm scared at home. And I can be scary when I'm scared at work. I just, I look for that language. It sounds like you look for that language in yourself and in others as a sort of mindfulness technique to figure out when you're in the toilet of fear. Yeah, I don't think I look for it as much in others because I don't know that I would be as keen in recognizing. It's interesting because I think about writing Atlas of the Heart, which is a book really about emotional granularity, emotional awareness. And so we went through kind of this long research process to figure out what are the emotions you need to be able to name and identify and talk about.

33:26Brené Brown:And in that research, I got really deep into neurolinguistics and how language doesn't just communicate emotion. It actually impacts and influences emotion. so I think I have become very aware of what my language is telling me about my feelings which is not my deepest level of self-awareness like what you said the somatic response to my emotion is not I haven't thought about to this moment so I have to try this on to see if it even make sense. But I always think about people in the triad of emotion, cognition, and behavior. So thinking, feeling, and doing. But I'm starting to understand the power of something else that maybe you would slide under cognition or thinking, but maybe you would put under, I don't know where it belongs actually, but language to me is, you know how you have engine problems in your car and your indicator light goes off?

34:41Brené Brown:Language is my indicator light. And I'll tell you one of the things, like as you're talking about reset, when we were researching stress and overwhelm and how they're the same and how they're different. I was shocked by what I learned. So stress is kind of this feeling of whack-a-mole. Things are popping up very quickly and I'm on top of it, but I probably can't sustain it for very long. That's stress. Overwhelm, Jon Kabat-Zinn's definition, I think, is the best. The world is unfolding faster than my nervous system can manage. And I love his work because he learned about mindfulness and he learned about overwhelm at MIT.

35:32Brené Brown:And his applications were so thoughtful around how humans work. And one of the things that he proposes is that one of the only cures for overwhelm is nothingness. So when I was doing that research and looking at studies, what I really started to understand is if you are stressed and you say, God, I'm so overwhelmed. your body and your nervous system says, oh, we're overwhelmed and we just stop functioning as opposed to labeling it correctly. So the way I talk about the language and neuro linguistics is if you love nothing more in your life than my chocolate chip cookies, and you came to my house and said, hey, Brunei, will you make me a batch of your chocolate chip cookies?

36:30Brené Brown:And I said, absolutely. And I followed my recipe to the T and you tasted them and they're like, oh God, they're delicious, but they're not exactly. And I said, well, everything's the same. I just used a different bowl. That's the power. Language has the ability to change the ingredients of how we feel. So now one of my mindfulness practices, which has really been amazing for me is if I use the word overwhelm, I am personally disciplined and committed to stop whatever I'm doing for 10 or 15 minutes and walk the parking lot, get on the treadmill, meditate. I don't really meditate. I'm more of a contemplative prayer person, so I do a lot of contemplative prayer.

37:20Brené Brown:But if I'm going to say I'm overwhelmed, that I am going to acknowledge that the only way back is nothingness. So I'm very careful when I use that word. And so the story I told in Atlas of the Heart was I waited tables for like eight years and bartended. And there's a saying in restaurants that you're in the weeds. Like if you and I were waiting tables together, I'd say, hey, Dan, I'm in the weeds. Can you take tea to table 34 and drop some bread off at table 35 for me. And you get in the weeds four or five times a night on a busy night in a restaurant. There's another term that in eight or nine years of bartending and waiting tables, I've only used maybe once or twice.

38:04Brené Brown:And that is when you walk into the kitchen and the door swings closed behind you and you look at the line manager who actually runs a restaurant, the line manager of a kitchen always runs a restaurant. And you look at that person and you say, I am blown. I've probably done it twice in a decade of doing that work. And the protocol where I worked, when you say I'm blown, is it's literally like an emergency drill. Someone takes your order book, they call a hostess, the hostess comes back and says, she's got table 35, 36, 37, and a big top on 38. And you have to leave the restaurant for 15 minutes.

38:42Brené Brown:You can go into the cooler or I was a smoker or you can go outside in the parking lot. And it's like they understood neurolinguistics 20 years ago. And so this for me ties to above the line and below the line in the sense that I'm looking for the language that tells me I'm not okay. Does that make sense? It makes complete sense. And I think it's really something that anybody listening can operationalize is trying to be mindful of the language you're using, because it's not only telling other people something, it's really telling you something. And if you're mindful of it, you can take effective action to, as you said before, have some sort of sovereignty over your nervous system.

39:30Yeah.

39:30Brené Brown:Let me tell you, the gift and curse of midlife, that shit's going to win. Your nervous system's going to win. It is undefeated. Nervous system takes the W every time. Meaning when you were younger, it was easier to override? When you're younger, I think your body is more resilient probably. And so the gift of midlife is you're going to get very strong messages around how you are taking or not taking care of your nervous system. Insomnia, addiction, sleeplessness, just not functioning. I mean, getting hurt. For me, strong ground wasn't just about finding my lats and my glutes and my core. It was also about what I want to be firmly planted in, like really just pushing down into are my values and how I want to show up in the world and how I want to be the person that walks in a room that brings calm and perspective, you know, not fear and anxiety.

40:43Brené Brown:Because we know that anxiety is one of the most contagious affects of all human affects. Some people who study anxiety would argue that it's never, anxiety is never a function of individuals, that it's always a function of groups because of the contagion factor. I don't think they're wrong. It tracks for me. Okay. So you just used a word that has come up repeatedly in this month of programming we're doing around resetting, and that is values. And I've, I historically have had something of a allergy to the term, in part because a lot of religious right figures used it in, you know, in my younger days as a reporter, family values, et cetera, et cetera.

41:26And in part because it just seemed sort of anodyne. I didn't know what it meant, but I've become convinced that it's actually extremely compelling and extremely useful. So could you talk about what you mean by values and then how we can learn what ours are and turn them into solid ground.

41:47Brené Brown:Yes. And so what I would say to you is, let me just take a deep breath. I'm staying above the line in real time. Am I driving you below the line? No, the conversation about how the term is used and how people throw the words around. Oh, I see. Yeah, it's just, it's really tough. Okay. So I think values are guiding principles. What we have found in our work is that leaders who develop teams that are defined by discipline, trust, accountability, caring, the things we really want to see in high performance, respectful, accountable teams, what we learn from that research that started about 15 years ago and has been validated for the last 10 years.

42:3915 years and all the data we've collected is they can really point to one or two values,

42:45Brené Brown:but not more than that, that they really hold on to as guiding principles. And so when we take people through a values exercise, we'll give them a list of maybe, I don't know, 70 values. And we'll ask them, we'll start a process where they're trying to define what their one or two core values are. And there's a lot of resistance because they're like, I don't want one or two. There's 20 things on this list that speak to me. No one wants to skip family. Everyone wants to circle family. Everyone, you know. And so we say, you know, circle 15 or 20. But in the end, I want you to think about everything you've circled.

43:20Brené Brown:I want you to ask yourself one question. What are the one or two values that you hold sacred? Because they are the place where everything else that's circled is forged. In your essence, these are the two things where how you treat your family, how you show up for your family, how you prioritize your family, this is forged. And so people get there and it's a very shocking experience for a ton of folks. I'd say it's one of the big things that we do in our work and the courage building work. And for me, my two values are courage and faith. Then the next step is where it gets really hard. And this is why values can be such a bullshit conversation.

44:05Brené Brown:I want you to operationalize those into what observable behaviors fall under these and what observable behaviors do not fall under these. So when we go into organizations, over the last, I don't know, eight years, we've taken 160 ,000 people through Dare to Lead. It's a courage-building program, 45 countries. Of the number of organizations I've been in, fewer than 10 % of the organizations have operationalized their values into measurable, observable behaviors. So they'll have integrity and they'll put that shit on a poster and hang it in the break room. Always an eagle. What does it mean? You know, like, like, you know, fly fast and pick up vermin with your feet.

44:55Brené Brown:I don't think that's probably what they mean. So what do they mean? So like in our organization, integrity is a value, but we define it. One, we don't talk about people. We talk to people. Two, we create meetings and time and space for everyone to speak. Therefore, we do not have meetings outside of the meeting. These are what we expect from you. We give feedback directly to the person using examples in a coaching. You know, like we're very specific. You either do them or you don't. Here's why I think when you're talking about like the far right use of the word values, or you're talking about organizations who do not operationalize values, here's why values gets and deserves a bad rap.

45:42Brené Brown:People don't want to operationalize them into actual behaviors and ways of being because that introduces accountability. so let's say you're the ceo of an organization and you say you know the values for this company for the last 50 years have been these five things and now under my leadership we're going to operationalize those into behaviors and i don't care how much revenue you bring in for this company if you're not acting in a way that's aligned with the values of what it means to work here, you don't get to work here, no matter how much you bring in. Well, that's a rarity. So sometimes better left, not operationalized.

46:26Brené Brown:Does that make sense? It does make sense. Yeah. And the same thing for politicians. Better left, not operationalized. I can tell you for sure, as a Christian, I'm like, I don't know when you're talking about, you are pissing Jesus off here, folks. Like, you is very clear operationalize those values. What you're doing here is espousing bullshit. So I think approaching values with, I don't like cynicism because I think cynicism is kind of a form of armor in my experience. Skepticism and curiosity is important because Because values not operationalized with no accountability mechanism is just nothing.

47:13Brené Brown:Better not to have them. How do we go about figuring out what our values are and then making sure that we're actually living them? We have a values exercise on the website that you can just download. It's got the list of values and you can follow it through. We ask really interesting questions, I think, that are actually in some ways somatic in nature. So we ask people to write down and share a time where they were fully in their values and what that felt like for them, what the context was, what decisions they made. Was it comfortable or uncomfortable how they felt afterwards? We ask them to do the same thing.

47:53Brené Brown:What comes up for you and your body when you're misaligned, when you're not aligned with your values? So for me, you would have been a really good Catholic priest because I feel like I'm in confession, but I think it's the voice and the face. I dressed as a priest for Halloween in college once, which was probably a cancelable offense. Straight to hell, dude. Yeah, exactly. But I'll probably see you there. I think for me, I know that I'm outside of my biggest indicator light, and it is like an ooga, ooga light, is resentment. When I am not practicing my values of courage and faith, I get into deep, deep resentment.

48:42Brené Brown:so I can take you on that long trail but like I've been sober for too many Christmas 28 years one of my favorite parts of the big book the AA big book is talking about the gift of sobriety being the gift of neutrality you're neither running toward the thing you want the most nor are you running away from it you just have a sense of peace and about it and they outline the condition for neutrality in the big book, and it's that you have to be in fit spiritual condition. So when I think about faith as one of my values, if I am not in fit spiritual condition, I am not practicing my value of faith.

49:28Brené Brown:So for me, that means it's a high bar. It means eat well, sleep well, move well, love well, connect well. And so I find when I am overworking, not eating food that makes me feel good and strong, not sleeping enough, not connecting with the people I love the most, then I am outside of my values. I'm not in fit spiritual condition. And it's taken me 20 years of practice around this to get it right. And I don't have it right. No, no, no. You can leave it in here, than you can watch me like anxiously change it. It's taken me 20 years not to totally fuck it up. Which is a far thing from getting it right.

50:17Brené Brown:But I'm getting better at it. I see now that in order to live into my value of faith, I have to be in fit spiritual condition. That means I have to really watch moving well, eating well, living well, loving well, connecting well. Let me try something. I'm always listening for what what can a listener do right now after they finish this conversation or if they even if they pause it. And yeah, so I'm going to try to I'm going to say something and you tell me if I'm right or if I'm close or you just correct me, whatever part of it or all of it. But so if values are really important and I agree with you on this, figuring out exactly what your values are, that's a very individual thing.

51:01And we should go to Brene's website and I'll put a link in the show notes to use Brene's system. But one useful, I'm going to use this fancy word that I'm probably not even using correctly, heuristic here is like the body is barometer. The body, if you're tuned into it, can tell you what behaviors, what mindsets feel good and conversely, which feel bad. And that can direct me toward my values. It can also tell me when I'm living outside of them. And in order to be attuned to this, you need to take care of yourself so that you've got some sort of spiritual fitness or mental clarity or what the Buddhists would call sampajana.

51:43Anyway, is that OK as a rough summary?

51:46Brené Brown:That's great. I mean, I think it's that summary. I think you don't need, again, it's a free PDF and you can download it if you just want to get a list of values to start working from and some questions to think about. But I think understanding the one or two deeply important essence of who you are values. The only thing I would change just, and I wouldn't have changed it before our conversation, but I'd probably change it now. It's just clunky. I would say values that are operationalized and where you're holding yourself accountable, those are important. Values alone, just words. Values minus discipline and accountability really mean nothing.

52:32Brené Brown:And they're actually weaponized to your point earlier. And that also is part of my faith. Faith without works, values without operationalizing just doesn't work for me at all. And I think everybody listening right now, if they thought about it, if you just got really still and thought of a time where you were operating outside of your value, what did that feel like for you? Like, it's a queasy, terrible, I mean, how do you feel, Dan? Like, if you're operating outside, if you find yourself going, shit, I am so far outside of what is right for me right now, you know, how does it feel?

53:10sucking uh chest wound um you know like it just feels uh totally like i've been hit by a truck and i feel shame too at the same time yeah i mean one of the things that was really interesting

53:25Brené Brown:in my coaching because i have a coach and i have a therapist i actually have two leadership coaches and a therapist. But one of the things that I thought was really interesting is I was operating outside of my values around something. I didn't recognize it because I wasn't being outside of my integrity or unethical. So I didn't have that shamey feeling, but how it showed up for me was absolute Mack truck exhaustion. Like I had been run over by a Mack truck. And my coach said, she really helped me understand that like, there can be operating outside of your integrity or what you think is morally right or wrong, but there can also just be operating outside of your values, which can still be ethical and moral.

54:19Brené Brown:It just sucks your energy. So one of the things I'm looking for in my life right now is what gives me energy and what depletes me. And often what gives me energy is not just aligned with kind of how I think of my purpose, but also how I think of my values. And so there's a whole spectrum of bodily feelings I can get when I'm outside of my values that can range from just my helping someone out of generosity and loving kindness or out of perception management and guilt.

54:57Brené Brown:Tell me what that laugh means. That was a scary laugh. It shouldn't be scary. It was a laugh of rueful recognition. Rueful recognition. Because I've done the exact same thing. Yeah. And so when I'm helping someone out of generosity and loving kindness, it can be really hard, but it's energy giving. when I'm helping someone because I think the only value I bring in our relationship is being the helper and the fixer and the handler of all things then that sucks me dry and I will end up in resentment and that's not a good look for me that is like I don't remember who said the quote resentment is drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die I am not a good person no one's good in resentment but I think I'm particularly, I know just enough about myself for it not to be fun.

55:53Yeah.

55:54Brené Brown:You know, if I find myself talking shit about somebody or being critical, I can't even enjoy it anymore. Sucks. Do you know what I mean? I do. I'm just, you know, as I often do when I'm listening to you, just interpolating back through my life and thinking about those exact moments where I've done those exact things. And I think talking shit about somebody is one of those moments. where I recognize I'm not living my values. Same. And yet it's so seductive. Well, yeah, because it's, oh, it's so seductive because you know what we call it in our work? We call it common enemy intimacy. Yeah, there we go.

56:33Brené Brown:Yeah, and it's such a political vibe right now too. It's like, I don't know you. I'm not gonna invest time gain to know you, but dude, we hate the same people, so good enough for me. But then if I happen to disagree with you on something, it's over. So I think we talk bad about people with other people to hotwire connection. And I get it. It's just any kind of relationship that's built on that is counterfeit at best. But I think it's so hard because it's such a, I'm so good at it.

57:09Brené Brown:Really, I said that seriously because I actually thought about it. I'm really good at it, really. I can be funny and shitty and sarcastic. I had a therapist one time tell me, because sarcasm is a real family of origin thing, and we feel like we've done our work in our family when we move from sarcasm to shit-talking. shit talking. We're never going to let that go. So that's our peak performance thing. But she told me, I just want to remind you that the root of the word sarcasm in Greek is to tear flesh. Just know that you come from a family where when it's over, someone's crying and that's not fun.

57:54Brené Brown:So we've just taken to shit talking, like, you know, when we play cards or dominoes or, you know, we're big sports people. So that's as good as we're going to get this time around. I feel like when I can look at my kids and say, look, I moved the football down the field 10 yards. You can take it from here. I got you from sarcasm to shit talking. I want to just make a distinction because when you're talking about shit talking among the Brown family. Yeah. You're talking about gentle ribbing, not shit talking about somebody else who's not in the room. Oh, no, no, no, no. Because one of our one of our things is we don't talk about people.

58:28Brené Brown:we talk to people. Yes. And it's such a bummer. It sucks. But when I said shit talking earlier, I meant trashing somebody who wasn't in the room and I feel outside of my values. Yes. But shit talking, like making fun of somebody, that is my love language. And I will never drop that. Yeah, same. Like we, I, my sisters, again, both of them work with me. One's a therapist. And one of them sent me a meme the other day that said, you are my sister and I love you. When you fall, I will always be there to pick you up. right after I laugh. Yeah.

59:04Brené Brown:So, oh yeah. So different kinds. I think talking, we can be really not pious, but one of us will say to the other on occasion, oh man, this is nothing. This is like a pig and shit. I love this. Let's talk about her bad. Or I wonder if we should just take a deep breath and not do that. It sounds like you need to have a conversation with somebody. And then I'll be like, you know what? You're right and fuck you. And then they'll say, yeah, fuck you too. Love you. Love you too. That would be a Brown sister call. You would fit right in. No, I love that. I love that. I don't know if I can keep up with you guys, but I love it.

59:44Coming up much more with Renee Brown.

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1:01:24Chasing deadlines, writing status reports, updating stakeholders. Agents handle the daily grind now. I stay in the loop only when it matters. Create your own AI agent in minutes on Monday.com. All right, a couple more things I want to touch on before I let you go, before we run out of time here. Sure. So just to reset, we've been talking about the theme of strong ground, and we've talked about some ways to be on strong ground in our lives, like achieving some degree of sovereignty over our nervous system through the above or below the line practice. Then we talked about the role of values as a sort of act of courage and a way to stay solid and grounded as we move through the world.

1:02:05The other thing or another thing you talk about in the book is paradox. What do you mean by paradox and why is it so important? She's rubbing her hands together, people.

1:02:19Brené Brown:I am rubbing my, I mean, yeah. I mean, it was so funny because when I told Ben, my editor, the subtitle is going to say the tenacity of paradox. And he's like, no, it's not. And I said, no, it really is. I mean, this is like book seven, so it's going to say that, you know. And he's like, oh, my God. Are you saying the tenacity of paradox because you write about paradox in every single book? And I said, yes. And no. And he's like, okay, you're such a smart ass. I really can't handle it. I spent most of 2024 and 2025 in these kind of weird rooms with tech leaders and kind of cultural people just watching and listening.

1:03:04Brené Brown:and one of the things that I noticed that they had in common was a deep deep capacity for paradoxical thinking for the ability to stay away from this kind of dualistic either or hold two ideas that are seemingly opposing and straddle that tension long enough for something incredible to emerge, something different, a different way of thinking about things. And it was interesting to me, this is part of a bigger conversation that would take us on a crazy thing, but it was interesting to me to see where we're losing ground in terms of reading and thinking and liberal arts education, where we're losing ground in that area, an elite few are doubling down in those areas.

1:04:06Brené Brown:It's like when they asked Steve Jobs, I bet your kids love the iPad. And they said, there's no technology in our house. We talk about art and history. And it's like, part of the reason I wrote this book and went into this mega chapter around kind of the skill sets I think we should be thinking about for the future, including paradox is I'm seeing this not so subtle shift around a very few people developing really complex deep thinking skills and then looking at the rest of us and saying, don't worry your pretty little head about this kind of stuff. Just keep scrolling. You know, and I think it starts to me with paradox.

1:04:48Brené Brown:It starts with, you know, I think about my friend Jim Collins, who wrote From Good to Great. And I think about how he talks about the tyranny of the or and the genius of the and. And how we're able to just from like in an organizational perspective, just give you some examples. Purpose and profit, freedom and responsibility, discipline and creativity. And so for me, Carl Jung said the paradox is the greatest spiritual gift of people. And it's the only thing that comes anywhere close to capturing what it means to be human. You know, and in very simple terms, there's small moments where my kids might come home, you know, when they were in fourth or fifth grade and say, you know, I hate my teacher.

1:05:44Brené Brown:She was so mean to me today. And I would say, you know, yesterday you talked about how much you really cared for her and liked her. Well, I did, but she was mean today. And then to have a conversation of, can both things be true? Can we care for someone deeply? And also, in a moment that we're not proud of, treat them in a way that doesn't reflect how much we care about them. Have you ever done that? and my kids would say, yeah, I have done that. When I got invited to the popular table, I didn't save a seat for my friend. But you care about her, right? You love her actually, yes. And you did something kind of crappy, yes.

1:06:29Brené Brown:Both things can be true. Now, we need to reconcile that and maybe we need to have a conversation. But I mean, raise your hand if you've never been asshole to someone you love. Like we have all done that. This paradox, and the one I talk about in the book for me has been really actually costly to me personally and to the team that I lead, which is my desperate need for unfindability. Like I can look down at my calendar and see my entire life until I die scheduled in 30-minute increments. And I think it's why I'm a swimmer because it's like the self-deprecation, whatever that, the chamber where no one can touch you, you can't, no one can call me when I'm in the pool swimming laps, you know.

1:07:22Brené Brown:I fear one day that I'm going to be coming in for like a flip turn. I'm going to look up and my team's going to be standing there, you know, like, hey. In which case, I'm just going to, I don't know what I'll do. I'll probably say, hey, what's up? I probably won't do anything dramatic. But I think for me, I've spent the last five years reconciling the paradox of discipline and freedom that when I leave getting my hair cut or highlighted and the person at the front desk says, would you like to schedule your next appointment? And I go, hell no, baby. I'm living free. It's a nightmare because what it's going to happen predictably in six weeks, I'm going to call crime, beg for the person to make, you know, okay, Saturday or Sunday, can I come at four in the morning?

1:08:09Brené Brown:You know, it's like, and don't put stuff on my calendar because I don't like the way it feels. And then I schedule shit on top of it. Then I've got two things to do. What I'm starting to learn in the prime of my youth is how to straddle the tension of discipline and freedom and to put my pickleball schedule on my calendar, to put my meditation and prayer on my calendar and not go into five-year-old under the line, Brené, where I'm like, if I have to schedule my meditation, I mean, how fucked up is that? Well, if it's important, you'll be disciplined in making sure you have time to do it, right?

1:08:52Brené Brown:And it's not like some productivity scheme. It's just, I want to do things and I want time for myself and I have to be more disciplined. So to me, one of my favorite leadership paradoxes from James March, who was at Stanford, and he said, leadership is poetry and plumbing. You have to be able to cast a vision that's so poetic that people are inspired by it and want to do it. then you have to build systems that are operationally excellent enough to deliver against that vision. And everyone wants to go to work and be the poet, but it's equal parts poetry and plumbing. So I think this whole idea about both things can be true.

1:09:43Brené Brown:Like right now, Steve and I are in a new season in our lives because we're empty nesters for the first time, and it's so wild. And I told him the other day, like, I'm kind of having fun with you. And I miss the kids. No, I'm not having fun with you, actually. I really just miss the kids. And he's like, okay, miss, both things can be true. And I said, I guess those things are pretty true. It's like, hi, I'm Brene. Nice to meet you. We met when we were lifeguarding 38 years ago, you know, and coaching swimming. And I still cry every now and then when I walk by my kids' rooms, you know, but both things are true and it's okay.

1:10:21Brené Brown:And I'm big enough to hold all that, you know, and I'm a very paradoxical person, which people don't like about me in many ways. Like people have a hard time reconciling the fact that, you know, I grew up hunting, still love to shoot skeet. Fishing is my favorite thing to do. I'm a massive football fan. I identify, I mean, I don't know that I would say I'm a Christian. I'm Episcopalian, which I think is a code word for something else, like maybe progressive Christian as what's code word. And I'm also pretty, very progressive in my politics. And people are like, you have to choose whether you're progressive in your politics or you like to go tubing.

1:11:07Brené Brown:And I'm like, no, like, I'm not going to do that. You have to choose between, believing these things about bodily autonomy and racism and homophobia. You have to choose between those and feeling like you're a patriot. No, I actually don't. You may need me to, but I got plenty of room in here for both those things. I wouldn't be doing my job as a patriot if I wouldn't pissed off right now. So I don't think neurobiologically, just to be really frank with you. I don't think we are neurobiologically hardwired for paradox. Our brain is wired to get to clarity and certainty and sacrifice almost anything it needs to to get there very quickly.

1:11:53Brené Brown:And I'm not the only complex person. I just happen to be a public complex person at times, which I don't love. But we're all complex, you know? And if you listed everything down, people would say, well, this doesn't make sense. Why are you over here in this column? How can you teach your son to shoot skeet and be radically pro-gun reform? Well, if you have five minutes, I can explain it to you. Can you say a little bit more about why you think paradox is such an elite level skill, especially as we head into a world where intelligence increasingly may be, you know, something that we form out to machines?

1:12:35Brené Brown:Yes, I can talk about that. But before we do it, what is the sign off that you use on your social posts and stuff? Andrew Peace motherfuckers. It's like one of my favorite things about you. Because that is very paradoxical, right? Yes, it is paradoxical. Yes, you're right. Right. And honestly, that's who we are. It is such a crazy thing to understand how deeply human paradox is, but how difficult it is for us. And one of the things that I would say for me is I can't move into non-dualistic thinking or non-binary thinking when I'm under the line and when I'm afraid. When I'm under the line and when I'm afraid, I just want straightforward, linear, dualistic thinking.

1:13:29Brené Brown:And that's where we are right now. Politically, spiritually, economically, we're so afraid right now that anything that brings complexity with us, that really, if you're listening, you can't see me, but I'm holding two fists up and I'm creating tension between the two. So I'm like almost shaking, like to hold the tension, a paradox right now when we're exhausted and overwhelmed, we have to have a fully operating nervous system to do that kind of work. And so to get to your question, I mean, personally, I believe that income inequality and greed are absolutely at the root of a lot of the pain and trauma that we're experiencing today collectively as a nation and a world.

1:14:14Brené Brown:I mean, I just think, I think that is in the top one or two, along with probably very, very deeply embedded patriarchal and racist. People just don't want to do the work of interrogation and ownership where we need to do it. And interestingly, I think the paradox is very blustery people presenting themselves as super brave and masculine when they're scared of everything that feels uncomfortable. Like to me, what does courage look like to me? courage looks like to me is turning around looking pain in the eye and saying, yeah, this is our history. Yeah. Unacceptable, painful, violent. And we will know better and we will do better and we will start by owning it.

1:14:58Brené Brown:That's to me what courage looks like. Not running from it because it makes us uncomfortable. I think when we talk about the haves and have-nots, one of the things that I'm seeing in addition to wealth is thinking and learning. And it's interesting because it doesn't surprise me that, you know, some are arguing that education is a pillar of democracy while others are saying it's unimportant. And I think that's going to serve a bunch of people who are exercising power over right now. But I think there have been two and a half times in my life where I have felt I have quit doing something. And when I quit, I felt so disoriented.

1:15:42Brené Brown:I had a hard time getting out of bed. One was when I got sober, was so disorienting for me. I thought it was going to bring clarity, but it just brought like, I don't know who I am. I don't even know. I don't know what's important to me. I don't know if I fucking like Jethro Tull. Like the dude I'm dating likes it, but I don't know. Like, you know, do I like the cowbell? I'm not sure where I fall on this. You know, it was disorienting to me. The second was when I got off social media for a year recently. Disorienting. Like, I don't even know what I think about some of these issues. I know what I'm supposed to think.

1:16:17Brené Brown:And I know where I'm punished for thinking the wrong thing. But I don't know really who I am and what I believe. The halftime was I did a three-month intensive AI project. And when it was over, I felt hollowed out, like the same way drinking and social media left me feeling. And so what I would say is this is a really, the reset that you're talking about, I think is foundational. What I hope we explore after the reset is how How do we become more interested and more active in deep learning, deep connection, and deep thinking? And what's getting in our way and who benefits by that? Let me just say in closing, I really appreciate you making time to do this and not to gas you up too much, but I look up to you and admire you.

1:17:17So it's always great to talk to you.

1:17:19Brené Brown:Well, you know what? I feel the same way and I was really excited about the invitation. So thank you. I think the universe puts your stuff in front of me right when I need it. And I appreciate what you're doing. It almost feels subversive, which is exact. It really does. It almost feels what you're doing is subversive while acknowledging our somewhat burly humanity, which is my favorite part of it. I appreciate you. Thank you. Thanks again, Renee. I'll put some links to our past interviews with Brene in the show notes. Don't forget today's episode comes with a custom guided meditation from our teacher of the month, Vinny Ferraro.

1:18:00The meditation is all about how to stay calm in the middle of chaos. It's only for paid subscribers over on danharris.com. Paying subscribers now also get weekly live guided meditation and Q &A sessions on video every Tuesday for Eastern. The next one is on September 30th. I'll be doing that one by myself, although sometimes I do it with the teacher of the month. Also, if you want to meditate with me in person, I've got a weekend-long event coming up at the Omega Institute the weekend of October 24th. Link in the show notes. Finally, thank you, as always, to everybody who works so hard to make this show.

1:18:33Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan, and Eleanor Vasili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Kashmir is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme. Thank you.