Buddhist Hacks for Anxiety and Overthinking | Joseph Goldstein

29:46And this is a leap and this is, we should all play with it. It's a little weird, but I found it to be very interesting to just get a sense of our awareness being lodged in the infinite space through which we are walking. Okay. First, just one little clarification. Some teachers do, I don't know if they're, uh,

30:14they're talking or teaching about this specifically, this little exercise, but it's in the ballpark and they will use the term infinite space. I don't like to use that term because when I'm doing this, how do i know if the space that i'm experiencing is infinite or not it it kind of gets you into a either physical or metaphysical question a physics-based question yeah so there's some space here let's occupy that yeah yeah that just feels more more down more down to earth That lands actually for me. Makes sense. Okay. So there's walking through space. And then again, just in this, in this basic open attitude of interest and exploration, so I was doing that for a while.

31:15And then again, quite spontaneously, just the thought came about lucid dreaming. And it's something that's for lucid dreaming is when you're at night, it's sleep, you're dreaming and there's the ability to be aware that you're dreaming as you're dreaming. And then you can manipulate. Well, that always interested me, particularly because, oh boy, I could do a lot of interesting things if I can manipulate my dreams. So I've tried a couple of times, not very systematically, but I got some books on it. I'd like to learn this. What was your goal? Rob a bank? Whatever, fly into the air. You could do anything in a dream.

32:06That might be your fantasy. Total projection. Not even astral. So I started playing with it very unsuccessfully. I never got very far with it. But anyway, this thought came, oh, lucid dreaming. Oh, what would it be like just walking as if in a dream? Because one of the phrases in these books on lucid dreaming suggested to use as a way of cultivating the ability was as you go through the day, just to repeatedly ask the question, am I dreaming? Hmm. Just to kind of get more familiar with the interplay of dream state in the way. So then that talk came to mind. Oh, maybe let me just play. I'm walking in a dream.

33:03So from walking through space, walking in a dream. What was interesting was the shift of perspective, which is a little hard to describe in terms of what the shift was. but it was the beginning of having the frame be the mind rather than physical space. Right? Okay, I'm just walking in a dream. So it's the dream state which became the frame. And I could just experience myself, whatever that experience was, of walking through a dream, walking in your dream. And then the third one was where I saw where this was leading, I just ended up with, I'm just walking through the mind. And again, that was a very different feeling than walking through space.

34:02And I'm not suggesting any of these necessarily have any

34:12profound philosophic meaning? Although maybe they do, and I'm not even aware. For me, they were just different interesting experiences that one can have as we change our perspective. That the particular perspective we bring to what's happening in one way or another is limiting because it's highlighting one perspective over the potential of many different perspectives one can take. So just by playing in this way, it shows that our usual perception, for example, of the body, our usual perception, which, you know, as you said, often it's our most basic identification. Yeah, this is who I am. I'm the body.

35:13And we have quite a fixed notion of what that means. So playing in this way, it just, oh no, the same experience of walking can be experienced very differently depending on the framework we're using. First of just starting the reason body, and then, oh, walking through space, walking in a dream, walking through the mind. And each one had a very different flavor. And so we realized that our perceptions are always conditioned by the framework that we're bringing to the experience. So it loosens things up a little bit. And by extension then, this can really start to, we might say, unpack or explore the very notion of self.

36:17And as we've said, a very strong sense of it is identification with the body. But it's also identification with thoughts or emotions. that the whole sense of self and the very central and profound teaching of non-self in the Buddhist teachings, we can begin to explore just what that means and begin to loosen some of the identification we have, whether it's with the body or with thoughts or with emotions or even with awareness itself, because that identification also creates a strong sense of self.

37:09By playing with these different perspectives, we loosen up our attachment to any one of them, saying, no, these are just different angles on things. And so the core notion of a stable, substantial self begins to dissolve a bit. And we realize our experience is always in flux and flow and morphs from one perspective into another. So this is just one help in loosening our attachment to the concept or strong view of a fixed self. fixed eye that's at the center of everything. So would it be safe to say that this discussion around whether the self is quote unquote real or not, that's a whole long discussion.

38:08We'll probably do it on another podcast. But for now, the thing to know is that there are very practical and healing aspects of just learning to call this subconscious sense of a solid self into question because we so often have a thought or an emotion and we think it's ours. Yes. And it feels monolithic and personally monogrammed and non-negotiable and inevitable. But doing these exercises, as weird as they may sound, walking through the mind, walking through space, can jar you out of this habitual way of being so that the next time you get angry, you might notice, well, whose anger is this? And do I need to follow its shitty instructions?

38:53Yes, yes. Perfect, Dan. But I like the phrase, you just said something which I really like. I can't remember the whole phrase, but monogramming, what did you say? Personally monogrammed? Yeah. Monolithic and personally monogrammed. Yeah, I love that. Like, with all our experience, we personally monogram each one. That's great. I'm going to steal back from you. Wait, so you're saying that one of my phrases could make it into this book? Yes, yes, I like it. I like it. All right, I'll make a note of that. Yeah, no, that's a good one. Coming up, we'll talk a little bit more about Joseph's phrases for walking meditation, and then you will hear about a humiliating and very funny video that my son made imitating me.

39:42I want to make sure that we're working off the same list of walking phrases because I have four and you have three. You listed before walking through space, walking in a dream, and walking through the mind. But I have one that goes before any of those, which is sensations moving through space. But that one was a result of the other phrase, there is a body. Yes, but it's still a phrase. I, in my walking meditation, will often just note sensations moving through space. Yeah, so I think once one has the experience of that, through the phrase, there is a body, or not, you know, maybe some people just, connect sensations in space right away.

40:34But I found as a setup for that experience, the phrase there is a body as one is walking just leads one right into that experience. Yeah, no, so then you don't have to go through the whole, just the shorthand. Sensations in space works well. You think that's a shorthand for the other, for there is a body? It's a shorthand. And it's just a direct way of getting to the experience without having to set it up to get to the experience. I mean, everybody's mind is different. And we talked about this earlier with whatever works. Everybody's mind is different. And it's totally fine, listener, for one or many of these instructions not to land for you right now.

41:20Consider it a seed planted that may flower in unusual and interesting and helpful ways later. But so every every meditator is in every mind is different and it's and they're all constantly changing. But for me, sensations moving through space puts the sense of a self through a cheese grater. yes like yes i feel like i'm dan walking you know as i know one of the most humiliating videos that my wife ever sent me is of our son when he was four marching around the apartment saying i'm important dan and i just felt very seen and not in a good way um and so but often as i'm walking around it's i'm important and i'm more you know it's me sensations moving through space there's no one there yeah exactly yes and so i find that a nice setup for then the cascade of of walking through space walking in a dream yes yes yes yes and again i just want to say to the listener and i think you would co-sign on this when i first heard of these sort of walking through space walking through the mind walking in a dream i just i didn't know what to do many of your ideas I reflexively rejected for years.

42:39And then I finally started doing them. So I just want to say to you, whoever's listening right now, to you specifically, it's all good. Just take it in and see what happens. Yes. And I keep hanging in there with you, even though you're rejecting my, these pearls of wisdom. I know, it's profane. I just want one little footnote too. I should remember saying that those three walking through the space, the mind, one is not going to find those instruction in Buddhist texts. These are my own just creative play which I found helpful. Yeah. So just a kind of disclaimer there. Unorthodox, quite literally.

43:27Yes. So I wouldn't want people to think, oh, well, I looked all through the discourses. I didn't see this any place. Duly noted. Okay. So let me ask you about a kind of very down to earth. If people are tired of the whole walking through the mind and walking through a dream thing, a very down to earth problem that we meditators often have, which is striving and constantly questioning, am I doing it right? How am I doing? Am I making progress? And so you have a couple of phrases on this that are really, really helpful, have been helpful for me. I'm going to start with a term you use a lot, which is the practice assessment tapes.

44:08In other words, this, are we running? Actually, I'm going to shut up. Can you talk about what you mean by practice assessment tapes? Yes. It is a very common tendency where we're continually assessing our practice. How am I doing? Is this right? I'm not doing well. I am doing well, whatever. And the mind can really get caught up in this frequent evaluation of our practice as we're doing it. So I can just give two examples of this. One from my early childhood and one from more recent practice. So the early childhood story, I don't know, I was eight or nine years old. and I was planting my first and what turned out to be my last garden.

45:04But, you know, I was just a young kid and excited and, you know, so I prepared the beds and I planted the seeds. And I was just a kid. I didn't really know what I was doing. But anyway, I do all this preparation, water it, planted some carrots, and then, you know, over time,

45:28they began to grow and kind of the green, I don't know what you call the green tops of the carrots, pushed through the earth and they were coming out and they were growing bigger. And I just got so excited. I would pull them out to see how the carrots were doing. Which obviously is not a great gardening technique. But it was like that. It was like, oh, how is it doing? How is it doing? So that was my first experience of that tendency. More recently in meditation, this goes back quite a few years. I was in Burma for a couple of months and I was doing intensive metta practice, loving kindness practice.

46:13So that's what I was doing all day long. And, you know, as the listeners may know, one way of practicing this is by the repetition of certain phrases. may you be happy, may you be peaceful, whatever phrases one selects. So I'm spending day after day, this was a couple of months of just repeating the phrases. And I began to notice very often, oh, how am I doing? Am I feeling more metta? Am I not feeling more metta? Is the love and kindness growing? Is it not growing? And of course that just interrupted the momentum of the practice. and letting it grow organically. Organic vegetables, organic metta is a good thing.

47:01Let's go organic. Letting the process unfold. So it's just very helpful. If people are noticing these practice assessment tapes where they're always evaluating how their practice is going, just to practice becoming more cognizant of that. And if it really is a frequent arising in the mind, to really become mindful of it arising so that one is not caught up by it. And one can see it just, okay, there's thought arising and letting it go. Now, it's not to say that kind of practice assessment is never useful.

47:52because, you know, at different times, we have talked about balancing right effort. So I'm not too tired, I'm not too loose. So there are times when that kind of assessment can just be a good check. Okay, do I have to tighten things up a little bit? Do I have to loosen things, relax a little bit more? So occasionally, just taking a step, stepping back a bit. and seeing the quality of the mind as we're practicing can be helpful. It's when the pattern becomes neurotic. We're just over and over again judging the practice, judging ourselves. That's when it's really not useful at all and a hindrance.

48:39How do you know when you've crossed the line between healthy assessment of how am I doing right now to neurotic? Two things come to mind. One is the frequency. If every five minutes you're, oh, how am I doing? If you're pulling up one carrot after another, so that could be an indicator. It's just, it's too frequent. Like that kind of assessment intermittently could be helpful. and one would just have to experiment and see as we're doing this, is it done out of interest

49:27rather than judgment? So there's a different mindset involved. And as I say, frequency of it happening and noticing the quality of the mind with which it's done, you can tell pretty quickly, this is getting more to the neurotic side, you know, just an old pattern.

49:54And going back to something we discussed over time, just asking the question, is it helpful? We might find, yeah, at times it's really helpful, and at times it's really unhelpful. And so that would be an interesting thing to notice. Coming up, Joseph's antidote to the practice assessment tapes and a thorough explanation of the meaning of cowboy dharma.

50:29Okay, well, now you've just brought us to another phrase. The first time I heard you use this phrase, actually you used a slightly different word. I'll tell the story. my first meditation retreat 2009 spirit rock meditation center on the west coast we're doing this interview at the sister center the first center the predecessor center the insight meditation society but i met you on when you were out in california teaching and it was the second to last day i think i'm amazed that you can remember this well i wrote it down and this scene is in is in my first book. Oh, okay. So this is tattooed on the mind.

51:11You were saying something like you might notice we're almost done. So we're on day nine of a 10-day retreat. You might notice your mind is returning to thoughts of things you need to do when you get home. But you said you try to let those go. Try not to follow that train. And I raised my hand from the back of the room and said, but don't I, you know, if I miss my flight, that's a real thing. So shouldn't I think about that? And you said, on the 18th time, you're running through all the horrible eventualities of missing your flight. Maybe ask yourself the question, is this useful? You didn't say helpful.

51:51You said, is this useful? And so what I think you're saying here is this question might be a good antidote to the practice assessment table. Yes. Yes. it would be very helpful I think and it generally is it's a useful question you know because we can get so frequently lost just in endless thought loops about one thing or another and we think it's important that we keep thinking about it but at a certain point it shows how ridiculous the mind can be because clearly at a certain point it is not useful at all. So I think that is a really helpful question. I mean, it's a helpful question in circumstances, as you just indicated, that span way beyond whether you're running the practice assessment tapes.

52:51Is this useful? Is it great for garden variety daily anxiety? Yes, absolutely. How much worrying should I be doing? And have I passed the point of diminished return? Yes. And what's interesting is how seductive certain patterns are, like worry, for example. You know, it's very common that the mind just starts worrying about potential eventualities of something or other. And we can get really caught, you know, and be living in that field of worry and anxiety and fear. And worry is one of the classical five Buddhist hindrances. So it's acknowledged as being a powerful and very seductive tendency in the mind.

53:46So in addition to bringing in the question, is it useful, to really highlight being mindful of the worry thoughts as they arise and naming just as they arise first time. Oh, worry, worry. So that instead of being lost in it from the get-go, we become aware of it as another arising thought. And it may not be right as it arises, but to practice becoming mindful of it much earlier on. So that's a little different and a more immediate meditative approach to it. So we're not even going the 18 times thinking the same thing. we're just learning to recognize worry as a particular thought pattern and keeping an eye out for it.

54:52Because to the degree that we practice that, then at those times when, for whatever reason, we are carried away for longer and we come back to, well, is this useful? if we've already practiced recognizing and letting go of the worry pattern. So then when we say, is it useful? It'll make it much easier. Okay, I let this go. So these two levels of working with it work together. Okay, my mind is going a couple directions. One of them is a phrase that I think actually, another of your phrases that I think might be helpful for anybody who's interested in doing what you just said, which is catching the worry before the 18th time.

55:42I'll come to that in a second. So that's a sort of a more meditative, technical question that I think could be supported with yet another of your phrases. Before I get to that, though, I think some worriers in the audience... Warriors, not warriors. Yes. Yes. Yes. So some worriers in the audience who think of worrying as their kind of warrior practice. Like, I need to do this. And I spent much of my life and still have some vestigial feelings in this direction. I spent much of my life believing that, as my father said, the price of security is insecurity. And this is where this gets quite subtle, in my opinion.

56:27a certain amount of worrying, or you might just say thinking carefully about the issues in your life, does make sense. It very quickly crosses the line from what I sometimes call constructive anguish and useless rumination. And so what I find is that this question, is this useful? It's like a thresher separating wheat from chaff. And the wheat is a very small part of the plant. The rest is chaffed. And so, yes, this land, what I'm saying? Yes, absolutely. Okay. I think it's not the worry aspect that's useful. I think it's the consideration of the situation and seeing what the wisest course of action is, is useful.

57:18and the Dalai Lama gave one teaching and it may come from some classical text, I don't know, but I remember reading where he was talking about the uselessness of worry and he said, if you're in a situation that needs addressing and there's something you can do about it, why worry? And if there's nothing you can do about it, Why worry? You know, so the worry part is extra because the worry implies a kind of anxiety or fear, perhaps. That's over and above just the bare facts of the situation. Oh, I need to get to the plane on time. Okay. What do I have to do to get there on time? One could address the issue potentially without worry, just with a sense of, oh, this is what I do.

58:27And then you could even, oh, well, what would happen if kind of my taxi doesn't come on time? Well, in that case, I would do this and this. So I think that the mental quality of addressing the issue, we get caught and worry when, and commonly, like we all do it at different times, but that there is another possibility of just assessing it in as clear a way as possible without that inner anxiety. So we can think clearly and even get into contingency planning without having the kind of anxiety goggles on that color the whole thing. Exactly. make it fraught. Yeah. Yeah. And to say that this would take some practice because the worry gene, I think we all inherited it.

59:24And so it's in there and common. So again, it's taking interest in just how the mind is working, you know, and beginning to parse out the different components of a particular situation and seeing what's needed or useful. helpful and what's not. And when we can get into looking at our minds in this way, we begin to see that, oh yeah, maybe I could let go of some of the worry part and then just deal with the situation with clarity. Okay. So we've just been talking about how to deal with worry or anxiety in a free range way, like as you're moving through your life. But you also, before, were talking about a meditative approach to really tune up your mindfulness so you're catching the worry before you're on the 18th time of wondering, how's my meditation practice or what's going to happen if I miss this flight, etc., etc.

1:00:28And that brought to mind for me one of my most favorite Joseph phrases, which is cowboy dharma. What does that mean? Yes. So, again, I'll tell the background story to it. So this is something that happened, I don't know, maybe quite a while ago, 15 years ago, 20 years ago. I was on a two-month self retreat with a couple of friends. We had rented this really nice house at Cape Cod and it was beautiful. Each of us were doing our own self retreat. and that was a time in my life when I was having periodic back problems. So as I was sitting, I began to feel my back going, just becoming really uncomfortable and feels like it was going out a little bit.

1:01:27So I thought, well, maybe I'll just go for a chiropractic adjustment, which outside of retreat, I had done intermittently when needed And it always seemed to be really helpful. And so I thought, I'll just go get an adjustment and then the factors will go smoother. So I did. It turns out, for whatever reason, I have no idea why it happened, because it was just kind of an ordinary adjustment that I had many, many times before. for whatever reason. And it may have been because my energy system was so open because I had been practicing for a month already. That's the only explanation I can give for what happened, which was I had this adjustment, and basically my body went into shock and froze.

1:02:20Oh, wow. It was terrible. It was just terrible. I knew something bad had just happened. So I go back to where we were staying, to the house. I can't express how terrible it was. I mean, it was just, it's like my back had gotten locked into some really uncomfortable and painful situation. There's still a month left of the retreat, so I was trying to continue practicing in this way. But the thought pattern that kept coming up as I was sitting with all this and thinking about what had happened and the condition I was then in, the thought that kept coming was, Joseph, how could you have been so stupid as to go get an adjustment in the middle of a retreat?

1:03:22And because I was in the midst of the consequences of it, that thought felt completely justified. How can I have been so stupid? And then that thought would lead me down half an hour of rumination. This was like my anguish retreat. Anguish was the word that best expressed what I was going through. But that thought kept coming because I was in the middle of it, in the midst of it. How could I have been so stupid and then gone? So it took me a couple of weeks, I think. I can't remember exactly now. It's been years ago. But I think it took me a while to realize that thought was taking me down this trail of anguish.

1:04:20Because the thought was so seductive, because it was true. If I gave it any airtime at all, I was gone. And it so completely seduced me into believing and following and then ruminating. No airtime at all. So that's when I thought came, which I just named afterwards, but Cowboy Dharma in not giving it any airtime at all. It's like I had a mental image of just taking my six shooter and shooting it out of the sky. The first thought, how can you? No airtime at all. It really worked. I mean, it was amazing just that after some time, that thought would come and I wouldn't give it airtime. and my mind settled back, I was still super uncomfortable.

1:05:27And I knew this was something big that I would have to deal with. But my mind basically just settled back into a more peaceful state. And very interestingly, I had a dream reflecting that shift, a powerful dream, which I still remember. It was just green hills, and it's surrounding this pond, a lake, and there was this beautiful horse in the lake that in the dream, it leapt out of the lake onto the green grass and sunlit hills. And that's what it felt like my mind had leapt out of the murkiness of how could I have been so stupid into a more expansive, open, okay, this is what happened. So cowboy dharma is when there are certain patterns that just are so seductive to us, we cannot give it any air time at all so that's when take out your six shooter shoot it out of the sky and one necessary frame it has to be done with a sense of humor otherwise it's aversion exactly the image to me is a humorous image and that's why it works but that component is really important because if we do it with aversion it's just feeding it a six shooter needs to be a nerf gun it can't be you're trying to get rid of this thing it's like no no I'm just being mindful I'm just seeing it for what it is without being owned by it and inhabiting the thought

1:07:33yeah well it's a little more than that I think there's more an active sense

1:07:44of abandoning the thought. So abandoning doesn't imply aversion. It implies not being caught in it. The abandoning is letting go of it in a way. So for that period of time, it's not there anymore. It's not, it's not that we're just watching the thought from a more mindful place, which in a less seductive thought may work, but when it has that much of a hook, you really have to dissolve it in some way or abandon it in some way or have it disappear in some way. but it can be done with wisdom rather than aversion so it's not i hate you i have to get rid of you it's the wisdom mind oh this is so seductive if i stay caught in this it's just going to carry me away so there's that sense of letting it go abandoning it in that way yeah the image that comes to mind for me and this is maybe one generation below you and for sure every generation below me kind of like a video game yeah no exactly although i must confess and it's something that had been on my bucket list for a while but is no longer i have never played a video game in my life 81 years old and i've never played a video game and i used to think well i should just see what this whole world's about.

1:09:34But I've abandoned that. The next time you come stay with us, I know an 11-year-old who's going to want to show you. Okay, that could be fun. Yeah, I had an experience here. So we're sitting in your living room, which is in your house, which is on the grounds of the Insight Meditation Society. And I've had a few meditation experiences here where the analogy I sometimes use is when I'm completely drowning in a thing, it's like I'm trying to water ski, but I'm actually being dragged by my head by a motorboat through a lake. I'm the horse in the lake in this analogy. And then at some point, usually through Cowboy Dharma, at some point I get up on the water skis and it's like, oh, it's such...

1:10:20This word liberating or freedom, it's a loaded word, but it's really what it feels like. Yeah. Yes. This thing has been tormenting me. Yes, yes. This doubt about whether I'm practicing correctly or this, I want to get out of this retreat because I want to go play video games with my son or whatever it is. Whatever it is, it's been dogging me. And as soon as I can see it mindfully and abandon it, but, you know, with extreme prejudice, friendly prejudice, you're not in it anymore. Right. Massively. Yes. So this notion of abandoning is kind of leading me to one last phrase. You actually quickly mentioned this phrase at the top of our first episode in this series.

1:11:03So at the top of the last episode we did together, and it is dead end. Does that seem apropos to you to talk about this phrase as a coda to this episode? Yes. So I, this goes back quite a few years of my practice, but I was going through a phase where there was just a lot of sensual desire and sensual fantasies just coming up. And of course, on a certain level, they're very pleasurable. And so I was just getting caught up in them again and again. And then I tried all my usual techniques, no desire, desire, wanting, but nothing was, nothing was unhooking me. And then at a certain point, when I realized what my mind was doing, this fantasy or thoughts, images would come up and just take me down, take me on this journey for some period of time.

1:12:05It was like walking down a long road. and then I realized the road doesn't go anyplace. It's a dead end. I'll spend all this time in this fantasy. It's not that the fantasy will be actualized. It doesn't go anyplace. It doesn't lead anyplace. And then I just have to come back and pick up my practice again. So I started using the phrase dead end at the front end. So as soon as the desire, the first thought or image or fantasy would arise, as soon as it came, I would say, oh, dead end. Which was just a reminder to me that this does not go anyplace. It doesn't lead anywhere. And so it made it much easier to let go of it and then just to stay with my practice, not to be seduced by it.

1:12:59and i found that dead end can be useful in meditation but also just in the rest of my life but i'm just i actually just to tell a story that involves you i went through a protracted business divorce as you know um and i called you a lot to whine during this period of time and at one point you recommended to me you know the next time you're thinking about all this just dead end it's a dead end there's nothing more to think about you've thought this all the way through 75 times dead end it's a firm but gentle and even a little loving and humorous hand in the air as if you're stopping a car that's going to hit a kid or something like that you're like no that halt yes yes so just yeah i think it can be incredibly useful And it points to kind of a larger principle in practice.

1:14:05You know, so much of meditative language is about yes, acceptance, open, be with, basically saying yes to experience. which is a central part of our practice. We want this quality of allowing but it's equally helpful to have in one's toolbox a wise no, which is just what you just said. We see something that's coming up that is not useful. It's not going anyplace. And to be able to say, no, I'm not going to do this. that no is as important in our practice as the wise yes but it's not often talked about i mean the buddha referenced it very much you know he talked a lot about abandoning unskillful unholds of mindsets it just reminds me of the knowledge and And I have no direct experience of this and you do, but I think of, you know, raising kids and if you never said no to anything, it'd be a little monster, you know, but the no is you can do the no.

1:15:28If one is in the right mood, you can do it without anger, without, it's a loving no. So that's the quality, a loving no at certain times is really important and very effective. Yeah, there are actually, there is a school of parenting that you never say no to a kid, but you're just using different language because if the kid's stepping into traffic, you're going to pull him out lovingly, hopefully without any anger. Although my son, he used to really piss me off. Bad parent. This has been great. Should we dead end this episode and go have some lunch? Yes. Thank you. Okay. Thank you to Joseph. Just to say, we recorded these episodes at his home, which is right near the Insight Meditation Society in Barrie, Massachusetts.

1:16:20And we did indeed go have lunch as soon as we finished the conversation. Lunch is always a good idea. You know what else is a good idea? joining our free seven-day New Year's Meditation Challenge led by Joseph himself. It starts tomorrow. You can sign up by downloading my new app, which is called 10 % with Dan Harris. You can get the app by going to danharris.com or just going to your friendly neighborhood app store. When you download the app, you'll get a free 30-day trial, which will cover the seven-day meditation challenge, which again starts tomorrow. It's a try-before-you-buy situation. The Meditation Challenge is amazing.

1:16:57Like I said, led by Joseph. It's an amazing on-ramp to Buddhist meditation. Come check it out. Finally, thank you very, very much to everybody who works so hard on this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Kashmir is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme. Thank you.