Coach Dan Quinn Got Fired, So He Changed His Life.

0:04This is the 10 % Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris.

0:18Hey gang, today we are talking to a dude who got fired from his extremely high profile job and then received a ton of critical feedback about his performance on said job. and then turned it all around and staged what has been a remarkable comeback. Dan Quinn is head coach of the Washington Commanders. I hasten to add that if you're not into sports, don't worry about it. This is not really a conversation about football. It's about a guy who, as I mentioned, got fired from the Atlanta Falcons back in 2020 and then signed up for a voluntary 360 review. That's where you solicit feedback from your bosses and peers and direct reports.

0:58In this case, he solicited feedback from former players and peers and his bosses. And then he brought all of the stuff he learned from the 360 review to his new job at the Washington Commanders, where last year, in his first year, he created a really interesting culture and they had a surprisingly great season. And so we're posting this interview on what is the opening game for the Washington Commanders. A personal note, you might be wondering, why do I, a guy who has historically not given a shit about sports, why do I care about the commanders who play in a city where I don't even live? The reason is that my brother-in-law, my wife's much younger half-brother, Jack Qualiorello, is a pro scout for the commanders, which has turned my family into rabid fans.

1:44Shout out to Jack, by the way, for helping me set up this interview. And speaking of this interview, in it, we talk not only about how to solicit and handle tough feedback, by which I mean not getting defensive, actually hearing the feedback and then making real change, but we also talk about how to give clear feedback without being an asshole, secrets for getting the best out of people, and strategies for recovering from defeat and other flavors of setback. A couple of notes before we dive in here. First, you're going to hear Dan mention somebody named Arthur Blank. Just for context, Arthur Blank is the founder of Home Depot and the owner of the Atlanta Falcons.

2:21He's the guy who fired Dan back in 2020. Also to say, this episode is part of our ambitious month-long series called The Reset, where we talk about how to get your shit together in various aspects of your life, from your nervous system to your career to how you talk to yourself and more. I also quickly want to add some cool stuff we're doing over at danharris.com. The bespoke companion meditations that we've been offering with every Monday and Wednesday episode are now here to stay. Every month, we've got a new teacher ushering us through these meditations. This month, it's Vinny Ferraro, who everybody loves.

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3:29I'll be with a meditation teacher named Leslie Booker, who's also a friend. It's about the dharma of depression and anxiety, which doesn't sound that fun, but it's very useful. And I'll be in October, at the end of October, I will be with my friends, 7A Slassy, Jeff Warren, and Ofosu Jones-Corte at the Omega Institute in upstate New York for a weekend-long retreat, October 24th through 26th. I will put links in the show notes for both of those events. Okay, we'll get started with Dan Quinn right after this. Hey, it's Dan. I just want to tell you about something I'm really proud of, the new community we are building over on my new app, which is called 10 % with Dan Harris.

4:08Here's something I I believe, with no reservation. Taking care of your own mind is not selfish. It's actually essential if you want to show up for the world, if you want to deal with the various emergencies on the planet right now. There is, in fact, a geopolitical case for you to get your shit together. In other words, taking care of your own mind is good citizenship. I think about it like an upward spiral. You train your mind, that makes you happier and less reactive. Because you're steadier, that improves your relationships with everybody around you. And because relationships are crucial to human happiness, you get even happier, then your relationships get even better and up you go.

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6:49Coach Dan Quinn, welcome to the show. Yeah, thanks, man. It's good to be on with you, Dan, and looking forward to spending some time today and got some cool topics to hit on. Yeah, I'm really grateful to you. I know how busy you are. I just want to communicate from the jump here that you're a big name in my house. We are diehard Commanders fans. We will be traveling to Madrid to see you guys play this year. We are hardcore fans and just so admire what you pulled off last season. That's cool, man. It's fun to talk about going to Spain. There are a lot of people that I've spoken to, including some of my own family members, like, yeah, I'm going.

7:22I think we'll have a pretty strong crew there at the game. It's certainly feeling that way. Yep. We'll be making some noise from the stands for you. No question about it. Right on. Let me dive right in because I'm not only a fan of your work in athletics, I'm really so impressed by the personal work you've done. And that is, of course, the major focus of my career and this show. If you're comfortable with that, I'd like to ask you about the fact that you got a 360 review. I'd be curious to hear, like, why did you decide to do that? And what did you learn? As a coach kind of coming up, there's not evaluations that you get coming up.

7:58So you just kind of keep coaching and keep going, but you're not getting evaluated and getting feedback on a regular. Oftentimes a mentor or another person that you're close with would give feedback. So I was fortunate in Atlanta to be around Arthur Blank. That was the first time I'd ever heard what a 360 was. He kind of explained how he used that as part of Home Depot and direct reports would give information. And so it was in my brain that I knew a little bit about it. When I got let go in Atlanta, I'd like to create my own 360 that was customed really to me. The cross-reference of people would be players that I worked with that it's going great, players that maybe I released, coaches I was currently working with, maybe some that I hadn't, some front office people and everything in between.

8:43So if we could find mainly like a cross reference of people, I wanted to find out some feedback and what were some things, any blind spots that I could find. And so I was fortunate that Laura Oakman, who at the time was working with Fox, I said, these are the names of all the people. Gave her maybe 50 of them. I said, I'm not interested in any feedback of who it was. I just want to know what their feedback was. And then once we get done, then maybe we can find some things that on another lap as a head coach, think about doing this differently. So that's where it began. I think the hard part of getting let go as a coach during the season, like it's lonely, it's time away.

9:29I've been on a team my entire life at three sports all the way through probably over 70 teams in my life. So it was the first time I wasn't part of a team, but it also, maybe the silver lining was like, it created space to say, what have I done this had I not gotten fired? And I think that's the thing I want to share to people is say, it's worth it, man. Do it when it's going good, doing when it's not, but having that feedback helps. I can remember watching it with Laura because she also put in all the good things and we did the Zoom together. And I just went right past that. She said, well, what are you doing?

10:03Those are like the good things. I was like, I don't always read that. And she's like, no, no, I want you to read everything. So I went down to the bottom. I said, all right, let's begin. But I really appreciated it. And so that winter, I got hired by the Cowboys. It's one thing to have the 360 and have the information. And then you want to, what's the lesson and how am I going to apply it? And so there were definitely things that I got to Dallas. Okay, how can I apply some things differently here? so I got the information now I want to be able to use it so a custom 360 it was interesting because I wanted to find out what blind spots I had and how I could do some things differently and so that's how it began I have enormous not only respect but also empathy for the situation because I've had two 360s myself.

10:57And the first one was a daisy cutter bomb to my psyche. And I learned a lot of shit that I did not want to learn. And so I'm curious, what did you learn? And did you feel defensive? Were you surprised? Like, how did that go for you? Yeah. Arthur Blanke had told me a funny story because he had did one and I think he said to the person, no, this isn't me. Like, I think you sent me the wrong one. but you sounded like you had the same experience i'd had a good working relationship so the ones that i wanted to see were really i wanted to find some of the issues that i could solve dan so one of them would have been taking on too much i like to solve problems like a lot of us do i can help you with that and i can help with that and i can help that and all of a sudden like i'm finding myself spreading myself too thin and hey man the main thing is like all the players all the coaches is like, what do we need to do to help them be at their best?

11:54And so it was this good lesson. That was one of the biggest takeaways for me is you think you're helping by helping this person, this person, but you're not. Like you're actually taking less time away from the main thing. And go to Dallas, if I ever felt myself do that, no, no, no, hey man, remember, assign this. If you want feedback, let me know, review it with you then. So it forced me to put it into practice. It's one thing to get the report, but then the next step is like, all right, how do you make it come to life and find these improvements? I still find myself making sure I stay connected to that.

12:30I kept a copy of it in my desk to make sure I didn't lose sight of those things. Like I said, I had no interest in trying to figure out, well, I know who said that. That didn't have anything to do with it. I did appreciate some people calling and friends. Hey, somebody's calling me about this. Is that cool? Is that real? I said, yeah, it's real because I did want the information. I definitely did. One of the other pieces of feedback I think you got was to be more present. What was that a reference to that you were too scattered? I think so. I think it came back to like taking on too much. And I know I am at my best when I can really dig into the person and the thing that we're working on together.

13:14When it's spread too thin, it just allows you to be less present. And so I created some time. Okay, for the next 30 minutes of this schedule, I'm not adding more onto a plate or pouring more into the cup that's already full. So I had to create time and spots in my schedule to be more present with people. And so once I started staying consistent with that, the relationships that I built with players and coaches. That's what I love about coaching the most. So why would I overschedule myself of everything else and take away from that? That would be my superpower, giving feedback and coaching and teaching.

13:53So doing less of that makes no sense. So I want to make sure to find the space and the time to do just that. This idea of giving and receiving feedback, it seems like you have really knit this into the culture at the commanders. And just for The uninitiated here, Coach Quinn went from Atlanta and then he referenced spending some time in Dallas and then was brought on last season as the head coach at the Commanders with the new ownership and the new general manager, Adam Peters. And it was supposed to be like just a turnaround year, but actually ended up becoming like an incredible year where they made it quite far into the playoffs.

14:31and you and Adam have spent a lot of time, my understanding is, and you'll correct me if I'm wrong on any of this, really trying to remake the culture on a team that was mired in some problematic stuff. And one of the initiatives you've launched is Tell the Truth Mondays. Could you describe that? Yeah, and even before we get into that, you'd referenced Adam and starting somewhere together. There's a collaboration that goes with that. And I think the best of the best can do that where you can lean in on parts of the relationships that are like benefit both of you and you can do some things together that you wouldn't have been able to do if it was just yourself yeah and so i really like collaborating with him and talking about ideas sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't sometimes you just vent to talk about something even if there's not the right answer So I think what I've learned through the NFL and coaches too about feedback, you have to give it.

15:30It doesn't mean you have to treat somebody like an asshole or say it in a tough way that's demeaning, but you do have to give it. And you also have to be able to receive it. And if you're somebody that's always kind of right fighting, no, no, what I meant was or what was this? I mean, just listen to it. Here's the message. Here's what I'm trying to say. and that's what I've learned through the years that you do have to give the feedback and we created a standard here about what a commander is and accountability and if you don't have a standard and don't give that feedback then like you really don't have a standard so we do call it tell the truth Monday it's the day after a game and did we do what we said we were going to do as a coach and as a team this was the plan this is what we said we have to show film because if If you don't do that or you just, you don't show a negative of a star player and you only show one that's somebody that's barely playing, that's not authentic too.

16:29And the same standards apply to everybody. The roles may be different, but the standards apply. So I think if you really want a strong crew, then you shouldn't make different standards for different people. How do you, you described this a little bit, but I'd be interested to hear you unpack it a little bit further. How do you deliver feedback, especially when it's going to be critical without being an asshole? First thing you want to make sure is that you're coming into this feedback and say, hey, this is what I'm seeing. This is the evidence of that to go because you do have to give it. And then I think at the end, a lot of times I'll ask the person, hey, let's repeat back what we said.

17:09Let's talk about this. So it's not just what I said. You heard it differently. I would much prefer that you get, okay, so let me read this back to you. You'd like to see more of X, Y, and Z. Yeah, that's right. Or you may have said to me, hey, Dan, I'd like to see more of X, Y, and Z. No, no, no. Just X, not Y, and Z. You're doing good. Just X. So I think getting the response after giving the feedback is important because now it makes sure you guys are aligned on the same page. This is what I said. You've heard it. You repeated it back to me. So that's one way that we give the feedback to one another.

17:47And then honestly, if it's something that keeps repeating, then I think you address that as well and say, hey, we hit this on Monday. Here we are the next Monday and the same thing happens. Can we talk through this again? Or what steps do we need? What do you need help with to identify that this doesn't happen? Just to build on what you just said, and this is me going off of the research I did going into this interview with you, I would imagine a crucial aspect of being able to deliver tough feedback and have it be heard and acted on is to have a foundation of a good relationship with the player and with the coach.

18:26And I've read that you've said if you have a superficial relationship, then it's going to be superficial coaching. So maybe say a little bit about that. Yeah, I think for a lot of people, all of us, myself included, sometimes how you think you have to give the feedback in your head, it's like going to be so much more difficult than it is. Yeah. Oh, I don't want to say this. I don't want to bring this up. What's the old saying? Like bad news doesn't get better with time. So like in your own head, you're like, I don't know if I should say this or not. Should I show that bad play of that player? I don't want them to be upset.

18:57No, like this is the standard and this is what we said. They shouldn't be upset. We're not coming at them from a point of view or attacking them, but we are pointing out the truth. I think that's an important piece to it. But if you have a relationship with the person before the ballplayer or before the employee, that makes all the difference. And so finding out what somebody's why is, who they are, why they're playing, why they're competing, why they're doing what they are, it helps you connect better. And I also ask for feedback on myself. And sometimes as leaders, we get less of it. We often give feedback to the people that report to us or, in my instance, the coaches, the players.

19:38But I also want it in return. And so how do you frame that to say, give me an example of something that could have been done better today? What's something that went well? What's something that could have been done better, whether it be at a meeting, at practice? and that way they're not saying i'm correcting the coach it's just like in general like what's one thing in this meeting that could have gotten better make people feel comfortable about giving feedback and if the small groups that you work with start collaborating more then the feedback just becomes part of how you're talking and it's not hey man worry about yourself or i'll take care of that and you're not very close so i've been on teams that way too hey man worry about what you do then they're like, man, you got no shot.

20:22So finding ways to collaborate, give each other feedback is good. You also have to give when it's good too. Hey man, that was excellent demonstration of X, Y, or Z. So to me, standards, you have to point out when they're really good, you know, when they're not as good either, but you have to do both. Many times you can just, I don't like that. Then you go on to the next thing. I don't like that. Tell the person without ever being the person that says, this is exceptional work. This is why it's exceptional. So I try to find the balance of both. Some people need more than less, but you have to know that too.

21:02A few moments ago, you referenced in the context of getting to know your players and your staff, knowing what somebody's why is. I'd be curious, and this is a two-part question. If you forget one of the parts I'll remind you. What is your why and why is having a why important? Yeah. Having a why is important because you'll know who the heroes of somebody's story is. Why is this so important of what you're doing, where we're at? So knowing their background, what they stand for, what they've overcome, that helps because now you know what they are fighting for. My why, I love coaching and competing, playing against the best teams in the world.

21:50And so those times in the game, like where it's at the highest points, that's when I feel most alive. Knowing that I love doing that part, the competition, the games, all of it. Knowing full well you could get your heart broke if it doesn't go your way. But the joy of coaching and being in that environment like it's the best so that's the why I can almost live with any result as long as preparation the practice the mindset all the things that went into the game we did and we nailed it then I love that one because it you lost it I could come back from that but it was a joy of being in that spot that's the why and I love doing those kind of things like with the group and being in tight games with people because the fight, that's the funnest part of it.

22:39So that's the why. And that's why I love it in the NFL. Like we get to play for and coach for and against the best teams in the world in football. Competition's high. People are really skilled, but it's fun as hell. And it's fun to watch. You specifically and your team, it has been, I almost had a heart attack about 75 times last season watching you guys. I'm curious if the why for you is those heightened moments, can you also enjoy the preparation and all of the work that goes into making those, increasing the odds that those heightened moments go your way? Yes. And so it does give you more discipline for those times leading up to that because you so want to nail it for everybody.

23:24So high standards, a lot of skill work, mindset to go. And so if you can just keep pushing. Can we go from here to here in our preparation? Can we go from here to here in our execution? I always know going in, man, I really feel prepared. There's always going to be things like in any competition that doesn't go right. And early on in my career, I'd always wanted, this has to happen and then this. And I've since learned like that's not how competing always works. Sometimes things happen quickly and you're able to adjust. And now I'm almost like waiting for adversity, something to happen different.

24:02And it's never like, oh, the shoe dropped. It's like, okay, there it is. That's the one. Now we're ready to go and adjust to have to game plan this differently or whatever that might be. So I kind of look for it now as opposed to wanting it always to go one way. When the moments happen, all right, this is the way it's supposed to be. So this is how we're going to go do it. Okay. I just want to hone in on that because that's really interesting. Recently, I had a guest and I can't remember who it was on the show who was talking about a myth that life will be an escalator, a smooth, unbroken upward trajectory.

24:37And instead, the advice was to expect adversity. Yeah. And is that what you're saying here? You've learned to expect and even relish adversity? I don't know if I relish it, but I definitely expect it. And I think, hey, let's look at it like no one goes through life without any obstacles. Let's give everybody the best tools to like when they come that we're able to respond and go handle it in the right way. And so knowing that whether it's in life or a ballgame that, man, it's coming, there's something that's going to be adversity. And it allows you to kind of show some of that resiliency. And that's why we referenced earlier, why is it important to know people?

25:18I want to know what caused some of that resilience. and some of that is their why an upbringing an event a moment doubted fired whatever that looked like most of the best competitive moments in my life have had to come from when you had to go prove it and so i love prove it moments because most of us you got to stand put your feet in the ground at some point say all right i'm here to prove it and i kind of love those moments to be honestly. As you referenced, sometimes prove it moments don't go well. Yeah. You've had many that have gone well and many that haven't. How do you coach your players and staff and how do you coach yourself when something has gone badly wrong?

26:04You could have won, but you didn't. And you've got to pick yourself back up and do the next play or play the next game. I think the first one you want to frame is, what's this here to teach us? What's the lessons we want to take from this? Otherwise, the pain of that loss or the moment really isn't going to go for anything. It's almost like you want to make that count, not to relive it all the time and go back through it, but to say, when we're in this scenario again, how are we going to handle it differently? So I think if you're with a group or with a team, you talk about it and not just internalize it and work it out on your own.

26:37That's the fun part about being on teams, like peer-to-peer, talk about it. What we've done differently? What would you have thought of? What if we had solved it this way or solved it this way? Okay, let's put that process in. And if, when we do get to that spot, we're going to try this. I've always been amazed when somebody has those moments, you hear people say, what would you do differently? And you're like, I wouldn't done a thing differently. And it's like, when you had a loss, like I've done a lot of things differently. You're like, why would we put ourselves in that spot? That's how I look at it to say, all right, this happened.