Feel Your Feelings, Drop the Story | Sebene Selassie

0:04Sebene Selassie:It's the 10 % Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris.

0:18Sebene Selassie:Hello, party people. How are we doing today? Today, we're going to talk about how to deal with shame, what to do when your mind won't stop ruminating, a technique for managing strong negative emotions, an ancient Buddhist practice for getting out of your head and into your body, and how to handle it when you feel like you cannot meditate on your breath. There is also in this conversation a fairly extended detour into colonoscopy prep that I did not see coming, but you'll understand when we get there. My guest is the meditation teacher and author, Seben A. Selassie. Seben, I recently co-wrote and co-recorded an Audible original, so an audiobook that you can get over on Audible.

0:57Sebene Selassie:It's called Even You Can Meditate. You should go check it out over on Audible. What you're about to hear, though, is a live Q &A that Seb and I did with subscribers to my newish meditation app, 10 % with Dan Harris. If you haven't done it already, you can sign up for the app over at danharris.com. Also, heads up, if you want to meditate with me in person, I've got two events coming up on May 17th. I'll be at the 92nd Street Y in New York City. I'll guide a meditation and take your questions. Then on October 16th through 18th, Sabine and I, along with our friend Jeff Warren, will be doing our annual meditation party retreat.

1:33Sebene Selassie:It's a weekend thing up at the Omega Institute in upstate New York. Links for both events are in the show notes. All right, we'll get started with Sabine Selassie right after this. Listen up. I need your attention for a moment. Chevy Drive Chicago has a massive opportunity for you. They're giving you the chance to win the Chevy you actually want. There's no mystery here and no luck of the draw, surprise prize. You choose the Chevy. You pick it, you win it, and you drive it. Chevy's lineup is built for whatever the road throws at you. If you need a truck that's as dependable as they come, the Silverado is ready to work hard and play even harder.

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3:13Sebene Selassie:Way fair, every style, every home. Hello, Seben A. Selassie. How we doing? Hey, Dan Harris. I'm good. We had a lot of questions about meditating on the breath. This is an issue I've had myself, so I'll just read some of the questions, and then, Seben, you can respond on the back end. This first one's from Tom. I've been doing one form of meditation or another for 50 years, almost daily. One form that has always eluded me is breath. I find it impossible to both pay attention to my breath and breathe normally at the same time. Any suggestions? I'll read one more from Vana. I always find breath meditation hard.

3:52Sebene Selassie:I'm one to focus on hands or feet because when I focus on breath, it often becomes restricted or manipulated. Bringing my attention to my belly as it rises and falls is helpful. But even still, paying attention to all the parts of the breath really makes my breath feel unnatural. Seb, what say you? so i was thinking about it and i feel like there's two parts to this because there's sort of the technical part which really is whatever works there's nothing saying that you have to do breath meditation and if someone's been practicing for decades and it's going well and breath is not a part of it that's fine really there are a lot of reasons to be more sort of practical technical about it.

4:35I think a lot of us are not comfortable with being with the breath or observing the breath and that has to do with the fact that many of us are mouth breathers. You know, there's a whole systems of well-being in, for example, the yogic tradition, pranayama and breath work, that help us to really be with our breath in a healthier way. Most of us are very shallow breathers, many of us mouth breathe, and there's a lot to the relaxing and other health benefits of just breathing in a relaxed way through the nose. There's a lot of ways to learn that. Again, yoga being one of them, but there are other breathwork forms that help us to just learn to settle our nervous system through breathing.

5:23And if we're not accustomed to that and it's not part of our practice, then putting attention on the breath is just going to emphasize the fact that we're breathing shallow in a shallow way or, you know, our breathing might be constricted. That's why we meditation teachers often give the instruction to kind of open the chest and not collapse. So it's not about sitting ramrod straight. It's really allowing the breath to move. And the breath is one of those systems in the body that is so powerful. It's both parasympathetic and sympathetic and conscious and unconscious. And it has all sorts of regulating properties.

5:57And there's a lot of benefit to breathing through the nose. Specifically, it's much easier to regulate. There's nitric oxide. I think it's nitric oxide that is produced. We get it from other things that we eat, but it's produced through the nasal passages and it's directly related to some sort of relaxation response in the nervous system or the vascular system. And so, yeah, there's a lot of benefits to breath. And we can also just be with other things like the hands and feet. And if we're not deeply involved in that relaxation process yet, or we're just on that journey, I encourage it for everyone to learn to be with the breath more.

6:39But we can also still be mindful and meditate even if the breath is not our object. I also find a big proselytizer for lying down meditation, that it's easier to be with the breath often when we're lying down because we're just generally more relaxed. And so you might want to try that maybe as part of a body scan to see if that makes it any easier. There was also another question in this that someone was sort of paying attention at the belly, the breath of the belly, as if that was almost inferior. and there's something very intimate about watching the breath at the nostrils and there's there are different experiences that might come from that depending you know all of us have different breathing but it's not like you get brownie points for being with the breath at the nostrils or in the lungs like we're just being with the breath however we can be with the breath and that's sometimes through the whole body so that's my technical answer which is kind of rambling and maybe long, but I think this is also getting to a deeper issue, which is around relaxation.

7:45I can't remember who the Dharma teacher who said that awakening is just a deepening process of relaxation. And I'm sure you can verify this, Dan, like the most awake teachers or even people, they don't have to be Dharma teachers, I know, they're relaxed people. and it doesn't mean that they don't have their quirks but there's a sense of ease and that is a lot about the breath too that i think when we're bringing that same am i getting it right am i getting it wrong some achievement idea of where we should be in our practice like there's a lot of tension in that and that's driving actually gets in the way of our success if we could call it that.

8:27And I think this is a metaphor for life too. Like, you know, we think like the tension is going to get us somewhere, but it's actually the ease and the relaxation. And we see that in, you know, Alyssa Liu or like any great athlete or dancer, artist, or I'm going to shut up now.

8:45Sebene Selassie:No, it's great. I mean, it reminds me of something Joseph says all the time, which is one way to think about enlightenment is lightening up. Yes, that's great. Yes. Just a few questions come in over there, or comments and questions. Actually, these are two comments that came in over the transom from subscribers while you were talking, Seb. Mike says, I got my nose waxed yesterday and breathing is amazing. That's an advanced meditation technique. Yes, it's a tantric. And Mary Lou says, when focusing on the breath is hard, I focus on the heartbeat. Nice. All right. So let's see. There are some other questions that have come in in advance.

9:30Yeah. And if you all have any questions about anything I said, please drop them.

9:35Sebene Selassie:Yes. And I will keep an eye on those. But let me just ask you some questions that came in in advance. And this one's from Danny. Can you talk more about how you work with feelings of shame in your meditation practice? That's interesting because I don't know if they mean like shame in different parts of my life or shame about the meditation practice. I assume shame writ large, not just about the meditation practice. Yeah. When we're talking about like our mind states, of course, we can have a perspective on different mind states. So I think one of the challenges of shame is that, what do they say?

10:16It's like guilt is I did something wrong. Shame is I am wrong. There can be a place for regret and feelings of guilt or remorse and also atonement. Those are all, I think, healthy responses depending on circumstances. is shame has this tinge of like i'm not supposed to make mistakes i'm not supposed to have hardship i'm fundamentally bad i haven't heard anyone give me an argument that it's useful i think it's good to have that perspective it's helped me to have that perspective on shame but then working with mind states is the same regardless of the mind state if it's coming as sort of you know a thought and like lots of looped thinking then we engage in the practice that we out to do in the first place.

11:01Like we hike the trail that we got on. We don't start going off trail and then getting lost in the woods and somebody has to like extract us, you know. It's like we just stay on task. So if you were there to be with the body, then be with the body. And if you're there to have open awareness, then you have open awareness and the shame moves with that too. But if the shame comes on hot, and we've talked about this almost every week with this group, as an emotion, then you can work with it in the body with rain or other practices that kind of help the emotion dissipate naturally, which they should in a couple of minutes.

11:34So I wouldn't necessarily work with shame any differently than any other mind state, but it's helpful to have perspective on it, I think. Does that make sense?

11:44Sebene Selassie:It does make sense. You mentioned RAIN. Can you just recapitulate RAIN for people who are new to it? Yes. It's a great acronym that was created by Dharma teacher Michelle McDonald and popularized by Tara Brach. RAIN stands for recognize, allow, investigate, and nurture. And each step is a process of, you know, what's happening right now? Can I allow it? And then going in a little bit deeper into it when we're able to. And RAIN is really helpful because it's something you can do in your meditation practice if you notice a big emotion like shame or anger or whatever it is. But you could also do it free range as you're moving around the world and you get hammered by some unpleasant experience.

12:28Sebene Selassie:There's actually one question coming in on RAIN, so let me do that before we move to the other shame comments. Heather says, I know the N in RAIN as non-identification. I think sometimes people say nurture, sometimes people say non-identification. What's your take on that, Seth? It was originally non-identification, and that's going into sort of the deeper territory, kind of the deep end of the pool, in who's thinking these thoughts or who's having this emotion and the teachings of not-self. That's not always necessary. Sometimes it's not helpful because it can get us in our head. We're not necessarily experiencing it.

13:09We're thinking about it. So nurture is just a way to actually make space for whatever is here and not trying to go looking for a sense of not-self.

13:20Sebene Selassie:I mean, I think Joseph has some ways to play with non-identification or not self that are, to me at least, reasonably comprehensible. One is to just move from I am feeling shame to there is shame, just as a grammatical tweak that puts you in a different relationship to it. And then the other is just kind of the passive voice of I am aware of shame to shame as being known. and then you get a question and then you can ask like known by what so as i always say just play with this stuff if it doesn't land for you that doesn't matter there are thousands of tools in meditation some will work some won't let's just get back to shame because a lot of people have a lot to say about this carol wrote i have trouble letting go of past events which i regret and ruminate about suggestions i've said it every week because apparently i'm a broken record that Pema Chodron quote, feel your feelings drop the story.

14:21And there are many ways, and Dan just highlighted some, working with thoughts as these ephemeral objects. And I find for myself, this is true for people like me who tend to be in their heads, that coming back to the body is a way to cut that constant storytelling that we're in. So there's some rumination because there's some feeling. So let yourself feel that feeling, but let go of the stories. You don't need to pick them apart. You don't need to categorize them. You don't need to not find yourself in them in some way. You just come back to the body as this present moment. And that is, I have said for many years, I could just teach the same meditation over and over again.

15:06And the words just kind of shift a little bit, but that first foundation of the body is so rich and there are many ways into it. The breath, sensations, movement, the elements practice, the body parts practice. Like if you go into the teachings of mindfulness of the body, there are actually a lot of tools in there. And I think that's a really good remedy for our culture. It's hard for us to hear the call to embodiment in the teachings because we are so out of our bodies. So that's what I would say for rumination.

15:43Sebene Selassie:If time, we'll come back to the elements practice because I think it's worth unpacking that. But I do have to say that the chat is on fire, Seb, over colonoscopy prep. Okay. This is showing that we have a lot of people over age, what is it, 40 when you have to start doing the colonoscopy? But Andrea wrote, I can't think because I have to drink a colonoscopy prep after this, and my heart is racing with anxiety, hard to focus on my breath. I just start to cry. For anybody who has the benefit of being young enough not to need colonoscopies yet, it involves this very unpleasant process for many of us where you have to drink this disgusting stuff that makes you poop a lot so that they can go in there and have a look the next day.

16:33Sebene Selassie:Andrea, I'm sorry, this is so unpleasant for you. There are like so many comments coming in of encouragement and comfort for Andrea. Seb, you have endured so many medical procedures, way more painful and uncomfortable than colonoscopy prep, although colonoscopy prep definitely sucks. Given your experience in the medical realm, what would you recommend for somebody in this type of situation? Okay, first of all, I've had so many procedures and many surgeries. I've been hospitalized numerous times. I've never had a colonoscopy. What? I know. Because I get so many scans, they don't have to do that.

17:15Yeah. So I'm sorry for all of you who have to experience that. And whatever works. Because I think, depending on our temperament, but I think many of us in this culture tend to beat ourselves up about how we do anything. And so we're getting pain and suffering wrong too, because we think we have to like be mindful with it and somehow at ease and it's like no you can cry if it sucks you know there's so many tips i'm learning like if i never need to do a colonoscopy i need to come back to this chat there are things to help us bring ease to ourselves you know if we if we're having pain there are certain pain meds that help some pain or not we don't have to sit through it you We can move, we can rock, we can bring comfort to ourselves and our bodies.

18:07And then we can also practice mindfulness. How do we be with what is and not the story of what is? Are we really with the experience? It sounds like the drink is really gross. Okay, cut it with Sprite or do the things to make it a little more easy to go down. But how awful is it? Are you in the experience? or are you just like pushing it away? It's that menopause teaching, which many of you are in that or experience that masterclass of menopause and hot flashes. And it's like, we hate the experience of hot flashes, but many of us will go in a sauna. And so what are you not liking about the experience?

18:52And can you bring some ease to what's happening? If it's not causing you harm, you could probably be with it. you know, can I be with it? It's not a yes or no question, actually. It's like a dare.

19:08Sebene Selassie:Mambo writes with regard to the colonoscopy thread that is dominating the chat today. Mambo writes, okay, in my experience, the colonoscopy has fantastic drugs. So enjoy that part of the experience. That's a reference to the fact that they knock you out in order to do a colonoscopy. They usually use a drug like Propofol or Versed. You know the drugs? Well, you know, I have a certain taste for drugs. That's what got me into the whole meditation thing in the first place. I have a funny story, which is that the first time I got a colonoscopy, it must have been in my early 40s when you're supposed to start doing these things, I woke up in the recovery area and I heard myself saying involuntarily, I just kind and I heard the words escape my mouth, these drugs are amazing.

19:54Sebene Selassie:And the nurse didn't even turn around. And she said, that's the third time you're telling me. Oh, that's hilarious. Oh, my God. Wow. Anyway, I'm getting a lot of laughing emojis as a result of that one. Let's go back to terra firma, pun intended, and talk a little bit about the elements. Because you referenced them earlier. and one of the big refrains in all of your teaching is getting out of the head and into the body. And elements practice can be a great way to do that. So can you break it down? Yeah. So I love this practice. It's one of my favorites. And I love how it connects to so many traditions because as I've, I'm not, you know, an elements scholar, but from what I can tell, elements in some form exist in every culture and every continent from ancient Greece to Ayurveda to Chinese medicine to North American indigenous practices African there they might be five it might be six they might have different names but it exists as sort of a metaphor for relating to the inside and outside of the physical world which is one in the absolute sense there's no separation we're just vibrating energy patterns and then we're also separate and so that breaks it down into just four in the Buddhist practice.

21:16And there is a practice of mindfulness of the elements of earth, water, fire, and air. And you're really just practicing feeling the solidity of earth, the fluidity of water, the energetic temperature of fire, and then the ephemeral connecting nature of air and the breath. And it's such a grounding practice. It's a really beautiful practice. It's a wonderful way to sort of recognize the connection of inside and outside. And it really, without getting into complicated physics, because we can't understand the math anyways, it really helps you touch into the truth of our interconnection. We're mostly water, and the world is mostly water.

22:04How is that possible? We feel so solid, you know? And air travels around each hemisphere within six months and I think the entire planet within a couple of years. So we're literally breathing each other and throughout time and space because air molecules barely change, you know, since the Big Bang or since the Earth's atmosphere probably was created. It's just a kind of fascinating practice also for that feeling of like, you know, there's a refrain in the mindfulness teachings that we're being aware internally, we're being aware externally, and we're being aware internally and externally. I'm always like puzzled by that, both internally and externally.

22:49And that refrain is said over and over and over and over again. It's the thing that's repeated the most along with then paying attention to impermanence and paying attention to the arising and passing nature of experience and phenomena. So it's baby steps into the deep pool. You're jumping straight into like, there's no self. Like you're kind of walking into the deep end. Yeah.

23:15Sebene Selassie:Maybe worth saying a little bit more, Seb, about exactly how to apply this in your meditation practice. I'll describe how I do it because I'm not even sure I'm doing it correctly. And then maybe you can jump in on that. How's that sound? Yeah, go for it. So for me, if I'm an open awareness practice, especially if I'm doing walking meditation, eyes open, walking through space, and I'm just using a little bit of mental noting to help me stay attuned to whatever's happening right now. Instead of, say if I'm walking through a cold room, instead of noting cold, I will just notice fire because that is the fire element, which describes all sorts of temperatures.

23:58Sebene Selassie:So I'm walking through a hot room or a cold room, it's fire. If I'm feeling my feet on the ground, earth, because earth is solidity. If I notice the breath while I'm moving, while I'm sitting, that's the air element, I think. I've never quite known what water refers to, really. The way I've heard the meditation teacher, Joseph Goldstein, describe it is actually there's a connection between the elements practice and this hard to grok notion of not self or the self being an illusion because instead of noticing things as somehow being yours, well, they're part of the elements. So they're metaphor for the nature of reality.

24:41That's why they exist in all these traditions. And the fifth element is in Vedic teachings and in other traditions is ether, which some people believe is consciousness or some sense of space like in a esoteric sense and uh i love that dan because i love bringing the elements practice into life we don't have to go out to wild nature to experience the elements like heating water is the fire element and your tea is the water element and you know the table i'm sitting at is the earth element so the world around us is giving us kind of an entryway into this practice so i love like being able to kind of identify the things you were saying dan and it also can be helpful to actually practice it as a meditation where you go through earth water fire air meditations online that you can find that will you know guide you through these four elements step by step so you can learn what it feels like in the body you know so you can sort of practice with feeling the solidity of the body feeling you know the fluidity of the body which is really just feeling the saliva or maybe the moistness behind our eyelids.

25:56For some people, they can feel the blood. There was someone who said that they can feel their heartbeat. Not everyone has access to that, but you sometimes can feel fluid in your belly. And the temperature of the body is fire, and then the air element, the breath, obviously. So yeah, it can be helpful to kind of do the scales of it before you sort of play the music of practicing the elements out in the world.