How to Work with Worry | Christiane Wolf

0:04This is the 10 % Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris.

0:18Hey, hey, everybody. Today, we're going to talk about how to work with worry, especially if you're in the middle of that special hell of waiting for a medical diagnosis, what to do when gratitude doesn't work or when it backfires or makes you feel worse, how to deal with that jangly, never enough feeling of wanting that can come over you, especially during the holidays, how to disentangle from your inner critic, and much more. My guest today is Dr. Christiana Wolf, who is a physician, a longtime Dharma teacher, and an ultramarathoner. So she's got a varied resume. What you're about to hear is a recording of one of our weekly live sessions that we do over on danharris.com.

1:03These sessions are normally for our paying subscribers, but we're dropping this one for free. The session you're about to hear was the first time we ever did this on Zoom after many months on Substack. So you'll hear us figuring out some things on the fly. Thank you for your patience on that score. We always start these things with a short guided meditation, but we clip that out so you can just get right to the Q &A with me and Christiana. Just to say before we dive in, you can come to all of our weekly live meditation and Q &A sessions if you sign up for my new app, which is called 10 % with Dan Harris.

1:35You can sign up at danharris.com. We do these sessions every Tuesday at 4 Eastern. We won't be doing our normal 4 o 'clock Tuesday session on Tuesday, December 30th because of the holidays, but I'll be doing three of them the following week when we launch our New Year's Meditation Challenge with Joseph Goldstein. Those will be available for anybody. That meditation challenge, by the way, is free. If you sign up now over at danharris.com, you can get a free 30-day trial, which will include the New Year's meditation challenge. So you should go sign up. All right, we'll dive in with Christiana Wolfe right after this.

2:14When we're practicing something like gratitude, and it can also come up when we're practicing loving kindness or when we're practicing joy or when we're practicing compassion, is to remember that we cannot make ourselves feel that. Yeah, so sometimes we come to a class and then I'm very happy then like you actually had a shift in mood, but for some people, you won't have a shift in mood. Yeah, and then it can be something that kind of confirms. Yeah, it confirms maybe this I'm having a shitty day or there's something wrong with me. Yeah, and so I just want to acknowledge that. So what we're practicing with actually is we're practicing with our intention.

2:58Yeah, so our intention is to turn towards gratitude or appreciation. And then if we're lucky, we feel something and it can be really nice and beautiful. But if we don't feel that, it doesn't mean we're doing something wrong. Yeah, so I just wanted to acknowledge that. Yeah, and what you were saying, Cristiana, about the fact that you don't need to feel any kind of way. Like to me, that's what allowed me to, one of the things that allowed me to do loving kindness practice is that the point is not to force some sort of feeling. The point is to do the exercise and have some confidence based on 2 ,600 years of contemplative history that over time it will bear free.

3:41How does that land for you, Christiana? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So for me, when I started loving kindness practice, I just did it because the teachers that I trusted told me to do it. And so they told me to do some loving kindness practice every other day. And I was just sitting there and repeating the phrases, may I be happy, may you be happy. And I think like, what a waste of time. Yeah, and I couldn't feel anything, couldn't connect with it at all. Like theoretically, maybe it made sense. But I really know that over time, that practice softened me a lot. and it made it so like we're often saying with a loving kindness practice is like we are opening a door or we're opening a window and we keep doing that repeatedly yeah and so it's not up to us whether actually like loving kindness or compassion will walk in but it is easier when the door is open but that's been definitely my experience there is a comment here from robin that I want to address and then I want to hear what you have to say, Christiana.

4:46Robin says, the gratitude practice is lovely, but it also brings up sadness, maybe because I'm also worried about so many of the people and things I'm grateful for. It's quite moving for me. And I don't, what I'm about to say is not necessarily directed at Robin's comment. Like, I don't know what's in Robin's mind fully, but right before this session, I was recording a podcast that we'll post in a couple of weeks. It was a great podcast with these two Buddhist monks, young American Buddhist monks who have a community in Seattle. And one of the things one of the monks said that I thought was really cool was that there is this feeling many of us have that the best way to honor the suffering in the world is to be miserable.

5:33Yes. But that isn't helping anybody. That's not serving the people you're trying to help. I don't say that as a critique of what Robin's bringing up here. I feel that too when I'm doing gratitude or loving kindness or often for my son, I'll think of maybe healthy and then start worrying about whether he's going to be unhealthy at some point. So I said a lot there, not all of it totally coherent, Christiana, but any thoughts on that? Yeah, no, thank you. I think that's really important. And I just actually had that discussion. We're like at another meditation group I was teaching. And the question that came up for me was the instructions were, so when you notice your mind going into story, can you just drop it?

6:15Can you put it in a parking lot? Can you say thank you, not now? As a training to say like, I'm paying attention to this right now. I've chosen to pay attention to this right now. Yeah. And just as like when I do focused work and like, I don't know, co-worker walks in and I say, can you hold that? I'll get back to you. Yeah. So it's not aversive. I'm not trying to suppress it or something. I'm just saying not right now. And then we had that discussion and somebody said, yeah, I'm so worried about one of my children. So is that okay? Or like, what do I do when that comes up in a meditation? And I basically said, well, do you have to worry about your child right now in the meditation?

6:55And then we had this kind of interesting discussion. I wonder how that lens with people here, because basically what it came down to that he said, because there's something going on with my child, therefore I need to worry because that's what parents do, right? And then we were just playing with this idea is, yeah, but do you have to do that right now? And is that helping your child if you worry right now? Back to your question, Dan, right? Or like what you had the discussions with the monks. And so I think what we can learn with this, And of course, we have to be careful that we not use that as like a spiritual bypass.

7:33But to see, is that really helpful right now? Is that helpful if I worry about the people right now? Or is that helpful if I really suffer with you in the same way that you're suffering? Yeah, so like when people are in our life and somebody else shared in the chat box about her husband being diagnosed with like an advanced illness. And so then the question often, is that helpful? And of course we suffer. So like this is the tricky part. So we do this, but sometimes what we are learning with these practices is we see what our nervous system does pre-programmed in a way. And then asking the question, and is that helpful?

8:20And is there something else I can do about this? Or what would be more helpful? Yeah, and then we can go in all different kinds of directions. with us that are not about avoiding feeling hard feelings. It's a good question here from Maria in the chat. Is worry ever helpful? That's a really good question. I would say barely ever, honestly. Yeah. So I think it is really helpful to alert us to, I really care about that person, therefore I worry. Or it alerts me to, is there an actionable item right now? Is there something I need to do? Yeah. But if there is not, I don't think there's any benefit in worrying.

9:05I'm provoking you guys a little bit. You notice that, right? But just for something like, I don't know, some food for thoughts. Yeah. Okay. Let me get to at least one of the questions that were submitted in advance, because this one is timely. So many of the questions we can save and ask later, but this one is really timely. It's from Nikki. Hi, with Black Friday coming up, I would love to hear more about your suggestions for dealing with wanting. I know it is part culture slash consumerism and likely part anxiety that leaves us wanting all the things. I have surfed the urge. I've welcomed it to the party, but it seems to keep showing up this time of year.

9:52Thank you. Great. Great question. Yes, very timely. And so to look into that question, is there the assumption that worry will away if I do all the right things? Yeah. So I think that's a really interesting question. Or is that just while we're human beings, therefore wanting will keep arising? And is that a problem? Yeah. So that's a general answer to that question. And then does it show up more this time of year? Absolutely. And it is almost like we're being triggered into wanting, like crazy. Like wherever you look right now, it's like Black Friday, sales and here and this and that. So it is almost like we're being fed a drug and it's really hard to avoid that.

10:37And so I think really important to think about is in general, what is your relationship to wanting and to stuff at this point. And I was reminded then, you had a nice podcast with Michael Easter, I think last year. And Michael Easter is the author of, is that the Scarcity Mind? I think that's the name of the book. Scarcity Mind, yeah. Scarcity Mind, yeah. And I love his saying it. He says like, buy gear, not stuff. Yeah, so really to look into, is that what you're about to buy? really something you need and you will use for the next 10, 20 years? Or is that just something that is just like the slot machine in a casino that like you're being played?

11:25And I don't like being played. So that's like something is really, I get actually mad if I feel like I'm being manipulated into something. Yeah. And that is for me a way to just go like, wait, what's happening right now. Yeah. Let me go back to worrying for a second, because there's another question here from DV. How do you let go of worrying when you're waiting for a health diagnosis? Yeah, great question. So again, like we want to work around worry with a lot of kindness, right? So we're hardwired to worry. Nothing wrong, it will come up. It is just like, Once I'm in it, do I feed it or am I training myself to pivot into not worrying?

12:11And so when you're waiting for a health diagnosis, of course your mind will worry. And then can you use your practice skills to notice that and you can name it, right? We often say that, name it to tame it and say, oh, worry mind. and then you direct it to something in the present moment in your senses. So you could look around the room, you could orient to sounds, you could feel your breath and keep repeating that. And then also just self-compassion, right? So self-compassion says, yeah, this is really hard to wait for a diagnosis. And yes, this is what it feels like for everybody who is waiting for a diagnosis to be so worried and not knowing what will be the outcome.

13:03That's a terrible feeling. I've been there. It is for sure. Another question from the chat here, it comes from Desiree, who I can see. I can actually see Desiree who's sitting with her friend, partner, conjoined twins since they're wearing the same clothing. So in my screen, I see them like they're conjoined. Desiree asks, can you talk about how to work with the inner critic when it wants to hold you hostage and not allow you to feel gratitude slash joy, like you didn't earn it or you or should fix various problems, especially with making sure everybody else is okay first before allowing yourself to enjoy.

13:37Thanks so much. That's an important question. And we have a related question that came in that somebody submitted before about how do we distinguish between a thought or just a story worry or something like that? And where do we actually address it on a psychological level? Yeah. And then I wonder if you want to also read that question and then I can see if I can address those both together. Is this a question from Jim Franco? I think so. Yeah. About IFS. Yes. By the way, Desiree says that the dude in her little square here is her partner, Wes. What's up, Wes? Jim Franco asks, I'd like to hear more about the intersection between mindfulness practice, where you label your thoughts and then come back to the breath, and the recognition that for me, some thoughts are more than just thoughts, but actually shadow or protector parts of myself that need to be acknowledged and met with kindness, curiosity, and compassion.

14:38I practice internal family systems, or IFS, which is a kind of therapy, and find that both labeling thoughts as thoughts and working with thought parts are beneficial to my practice. If I'm not mindful of the psychological healing that needs to occur, I'm at risk of spiritually bypassing. I've heard this two-pronged approach referred to by the Buddhist psychologist Bruce Tift as the being-slash-fruitional approach and the becoming-slash-developmental approach. Or as I've heard in a quote from the Zen teacher, Shunryo Suzuki Roshi, we're all perfect and we can also use a little work. I would appreciate hearing your thoughts.

15:15Yeah. And I see Desiree, like you do IFS. So you're familiar with that. IFS, I'm also trained in IFS, this internal family system. And I find that really helpful in conjunction with mindfulness. It could be you feel anxious. So does it make a difference to you? A little experiment here. If you say to yourself, I'm anxious, I'm super anxious. Notice how that lands. And then would that land differently if you would say, I have a part that feels really anxious right now. I have a part that feels really anxious. and then my first question would be does that make sense that you have a part that feels really anxious right now no so i just wonder how that lands for people can you feel a difference between those two i don't think you were even asking me particularly please no yes when you put it on a part it feels less blot out the sun yes exactly yeah and this actually is totally in alignment with mindfulness or Buddhist teachings is like we don't take it as personally.

16:26We don't think this is who we are. Yeah, when I say I am anxious, blocks out the sun, exactly, right? This is who I am, always been, always will be hopeless kind of thing. And if I say I have a part, very often there's immediately a sense of more openness or curiosity or like, yeah, of course I have a part. Like that makes total sense. So we have understanding and we have an uncoupling from being completely merged with that part, yeah? So very often, like with emotional work, it is very helpful to just use that, yeah? And then with the inner critic, right? So Desiree, back to your question also, and I'm sure you've already asked yourself that question, does that make sense that you have an inner critic part?

17:16Makes sense, I see you're not, yes. Okay. And then the question is, one approach of IFS is that all parts have a really good intention for you. Yeah. And then we need to separate the intention and the method. Yeah. Because you might be on the receiving end of that part yelling at you and calling you names. So that doesn't land well in my system at all. But if you're actually sometimes sit down with that part, get to know it, right? To see what does that part actually want from you, for you? Yeah, so I just wonder also like for Desiree and other people here, do you have a sense of what that part or give it away?

18:06How is the part trying to keep you safe? Or can you see how the part is trying to keep you safe? Very often, so with the inner critic, what happens is that we have learned if we're really hard on ourselves, or we're using the words that have been used towards us, it keeps us in line and therefore safe. yeah and so what we're doing here is we're reframing our experience in a more psychological way which can when there's more understanding or like even like a softening like like oh yeah i get that i get that yeah how my inner perfectionist or how my inner critic actually is trying to keep me safe my inner people pleaser or whatever that is and then we can use mindfulness to integrate that.

19:08And then often the pressure of those parts, they decrease. So back to the questions that was sent in, because I totally believe and I've seen that we can use mindfulness skills to bypass actually addressing hurt parts or hurt younger aspects in ourselves. So that's a long answer. And I can talk for the next couple of hours or days, probably, on the topic. But I'll just pause here. Let's do one last question here and just stay on this point. And I'll read you a comment here from Sylvia Davidson, who is just expressing some, not necessarily skepticism about what you're saying, but about her ability to apply it for herself.

19:59She writes, sigh, I can see slash intellectual eyes and tell myself that the second option is creating distance. In other words, that when I say that there's a part of me that's anxious rather than I am anxious, but it's just words for me at the emotional level, I can't say that I feel that distance. Yeah. So that is very common. So especially as we start with that work, because the idea is that those parts are younger aspects of ourselves who have learned to drive the minivan and they shouldn't. So the question always is, who is driving the minivan right now? And what we want is our loving adult self to drive the minivan and everybody in the backseat give their opinions and inputs, right?

20:47We really want to listen to them, but over time, we don't want them to drive the minivan anymore. But we also know that for many of us growing up, there was nobody driving the minivan. So it was just us who were able to do it. And we had to do it. And we did that as best as we could. And so there's often this habitual taking over. And then it feels like there is no loving, mature adult here. And that is actually part of the healing work that we can do with IFS. Yeah. So totally normal what you're describing, Sylvia. Yeah. Christiana, thank you very much for being Teacher of the Month here for November.

21:29You've done great work. Really appreciate it. And thanks for doing this session with us today. Thank you. And thank you, everyone. Thank you for hanging out here. Happy Thanksgiving to all of you who are celebrating. Wonderful to see you. And keep practicing. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you, everybody, for being part of this. I really appreciate it. And we'll be back next Tuesday with, as mentioned, our December Teacher of the Month, Jeff Warren. And yeah, lots of cool stuff cooking in 10 % universe. So thanks for being part of it. Thank you again to Christiana and see you next week. Bye-bye. Thank you.

22:04Thank you so much.

22:10Big thank you to Christiana. Don't forget to sign up for the new app, 10 % with Dan Harris. You can sign up over at danharris.com. There's a free 30-day trial. If you want to try before you buy, if you sign up for the free trial, That will cover our New Year's Meditation Challenge, so you'll get that for free. The challenge starts on the 5th and runs for seven days, and will feature a series of progressive guided meditations led by Joseph Goldstein. It's going to be really cool. Finally, a big thank you to everybody who worked so hard on this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasili.

22:43Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Kashmir is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.