Is the News Making You Hate Everybody? Here's a Radical Antidote.

26:21I'll read the first one. The first reason is reduced prejudice and increased empathy or just a broader perspective. And I thought this was fascinating. There's a lot of studies, a lot of research. But it says friends with different backgrounds, cultures and beliefs can introduce you to new ideas and ways of looking at the world, helping you see beyond your own limited perspective. Understanding their perspectives fosters compassion and empathy. We've talked about this offline, but there's this idea of the contact hypothesis that if you make friends who are different from you, like it really, it can reduce polarization and bias and hatred.

26:59what's that there's some expression from the former congressman whose name is escaping me right now it's hard to hate up close and if you get to know somebody especially if you're engaged my understanding is this is especially true if you're engaged in a mutual activity like some sort of civic organization where you're working toward a goal a shared goal together that that it really and and essentially that's what you and i were doing as journalists we were working toward making this show together and it forced us to interact in deep, meaningful ways. And that can just inexorably leads to sort of opening your mind.

27:40So I think that's really interesting and promising for us as a culture. Like we seem so incredibly divided. We are so incredibly divided. The data, the research and the survey data back this up, but there is a way out. I agree. It is to get to know. And I do think that we have to hold our media responsible for a lot of the division, Dan, because we do not. It feels like we live in two different worlds. I mean, if you were to look at one network's coverage as opposed to another the last couple of weeks, you'd think we lived in two different Americas just based on what we cover. And what we cover is determined by our bias.

28:16and when there isn't the ideological diversity, diversity of thought, all of that. In a newsroom, we're going to cover it a certain way and we're going to spin it a certain way. So I do think the media needs to be held accountable because it has created and sowed this division in our country. I do think at the end of the day, we're so much more united than we are divided. And yes, we're divided about certain things. But when you actually sit down and talk to someone and get to know them and befriend them, you understand where they're coming from and you're not going to reduce them. You're not going to necessarily call them a bigot or a racist.

28:52And yes, some people need to be called out for their racism. Okay. It's inexcusable. But when you sit down with a mom and a friend and you understand, oh, she's voting this way because she has chronic illness and her kids have chronic illness and she wants to see, you know, our Food and Drug Administration overhauled Or you sit down with another family and they have a child that's, you know, LGBTQ. You understand where they're coming from. And when you just sit down with the goal of learning and not agreeing, you know, I like to tell my kids, God gave us two ears and one mouth. So zip it and listen.

29:27And I'm trying to do a better job of this. But listening and learning, and that's something that Sharon McMahon, Sharon Say So, America's government teacher, she's been, you guys have been in conversation before. I know she's been on my podcast. She said something that really resonated with me. And she said, the goal is to learn. The goal isn't to agree. The goal is to learn from somebody else. And I think there's always something we can learn. And when you don't reduce somebody to their policy, Dan, I used to get asked a lot, like I would right when I left ABC News and I spoke at a couple of different conventions.

30:00I continue to speak, but I spoke at this one conservative Christian convention. And they're like, how can you how could you work with Whoopi and Joy? That question always pissed me off. Okay. Because A, you're assuming that I am a conservative, but I'm very, I'm very independent. You know, I have certain liberal views and certain conservative views. But I said, you know what? Why are we reducing people to their policy when you actually get to know them? And from my own faith background, I'm like, this is my response. I said, you know what? God loves Whoopi and Joy just as much as she loves me, just as much as she loves you.

30:33They were fearfully and wonderfully made. You know, they're human beings above all else. And if we can't just respect people and their viewpoint, then I think we have a problem. And I think we've become moral narcissists when we think that our viewpoint is the only viewpoint. So anyway, I didn't mean to go off on a tangent there, but broader perspective, understanding their perspectives fosters compassion and empathy. That's something you talk a lot about with 10 % Happier is compassion and empathy. Do you think that's something that you or your audience are able to exercise, Dan? I think it's hard.

31:06It takes a lot of work. But I do think it's possible. You know, you I love that phrase, moral narcissism. And, you know, that I come more out of a Buddhist context these days. When we first met, I was a little bit more of a straight up atheist. I would say now I'm more of like an agnostic slash Buddhist. And, you know, in the Dharma and the Buddhist teaching, there's a lot of emphasis on not being attached to your views. In fact, there's a quote from the Buddha that I love, which is people who are I'm going to mangle it, but it's roughly along the lines of people who are overly attached to their views and opinions wander the world, annoying other people.

31:43And I think that's just that's just so hilarious and true. It's true. And there's some modern psychological research that shows that we cling to our views and opinions the way we cling to our possessions. When our views are challenged, it's the term that we that's often used among psychologists is seizing and freezing. And so this is all to say it's hard and necessary work to do to just build on something you said about, you know, if you're going to try this, if you're going to have a conversation with somebody you disagree with, if you feel, you know, safe and resourced and sturdy enough to do it.

32:24And the cardinal rule, from what I can tell, is to not try to change anybody's mind, as you articulated there, Paula. I spent some time as a reporter with this group called the Braver Angels, whose system, this group brings together reds and blues from across America. I love that. I love that. Their system of conversation was designed by a marriage counselor, which I think is awesome. And his, this guy, Bill Daugherty, who's been on my show, and the cardinal rule is never try to change anybody's mind. And what you should aim for instead is accurate disagreement. And I think that's fantastic. I do want to point out that I get on both sides why there are some people who would feel like it's unsafe to enter into this discussion.

33:10You know, because while I agree with you that the vast majority of human beings are moderate and fair minded and not cruel, I think on the left, there are people who would look at Trump specifically and say, well, there's a pretty good track record to say he's anti trans, racist and misogynist. And I'm not saying any of these. I'm not making these accusations. But if you look at his past statements and policies, I think somebody on the left, including friends of mine who have trans kids, could draw that conclusion. I want to be fair and point out that on the right, there are a lot of people who are really worried specifically about abortion, which they view as murder and might not feel like they're in a it's a safe place to have these discussions with somebody on the left.

34:02While we're encouraging people to explore friendships across the aisle or across gender or racial divides, I just want to specifically as it pertains to politics, leave the door open to people who, you know, for people to opt out if they don't feel like their nervous system can handle it. Absolutely. But if you are going to venture into those waters, do so with the goal of learning and not agreeing. Try to understand where the other person is coming from and what informs them. You're not going to change their mind. Like, when's the last time you ever sat down with somebody and they're like, oh, you make a good point.

34:37You've changed my mind. You're not going to change anybody's mind. But what you're going to do is you're going to understand. And I understand now where she's coming from and why she's voting a certain way because she has her child is gay or trans. Or I understand why this person is voting this way because her kid has chronic illness or, you know, because her daughter doesn't want to be to play against a male in female sports and get injured. Maybe that's happened to somebody. So I think just sitting down, understanding, like, I just want to listen. I don't have to agree. And you can respectfully disagree.

35:16Like you don't. You don't have to be offended. Like be unoffendable. Like what is is there anything that you can say? Really, that's going to offend me. No, I believe what I believe, Dan. You believe what you believe. What you believe isn't going to offend me. I think we all have a right to our own views, but assuming that our views are the only correct views, again, it can be called moral narcissism. That's another Sharon McMahon phrase, by the way. Number one, reduced prejudice and increased empathy, also known as a broader perspective. Number two, this is really fascinating, personal growth and critical thinking skills.

35:54You cannot, I mean, in debate, Dan, you took debate. You're a master debater, okay? Like, I'm assuming you took debate because you debate well. Did you ever take a debate class? Yes, I did. Okay, I feel like you did. Dan, you couldn't accurately debate unless you were presented with opposing information, correct? Yes. Like, critical thinking, you know, I'm a Christian. I firmly believe, you know, you have to be ready to explain for the hope that is within you. And you do that by learning the facts. And the facts come from red states and blue states and purple states. You cannot develop critical thinking skills unless you're presented with opposing information.

36:37Right. And so I think that's something we need to do with our kids. Like I live in, you know, my kids have been exposed to a lot. They've lived in Chicago and New York and now a small town in South Carolina where we live. And getting them to develop critical thinking skills and not, again, reducing people to a policy. Like during the election, you know, they would come back and repeat some trope or repeat some phrase that they heard. And, oh, Trump would be better for the economy. And so I would say, OK, why do you think Trump would be better for the economy? and getting them to develop those critical thinking skills, asking questions, leaning into the curiosity, but also being presented with opposing information.

37:20That's why I'm a big fan of cross-checking, cross-referencing. I don't really watch television news all that much anymore. And if I do, I try to counterbalance it. It's fascinating to me to see, like, again, the two Americas. But it's really important that we are presented with opposing information to help us develop critical thinking skills. And we cannot develop critical thinking skills if we're in our own echo chamber. Echo chambers, you're surrounded by people that look like you, think like you, sound like you, talk like you. That's closed-mindedness. I mean, let's just call it what it is.

37:56I want to be open-minded. And all the research supports that interacting with people who hold different political opinions enhances cognitive complexity, which is the ability to consider multiple perspectives at once. Yeah, just to build on that, there's also data to show that open-mindedness or cognitive complexity can lead to a reduction in anxiety and a boost in happiness. And it also can lead to more success. This faculty of cognitive flexibility has been shown to lead to more successful startups and American presidencies. So there's a lot to be said here. And one way to do this, and the dead are a little mixed on this one, but one way that I found very helpful is to broaden my media diet, to not just read one outlet or not just listen to one kind of podcast.

38:47It's been very helpful. It's a kind of self gaslighting that can be really illuminating. I would just add one last thing. And this is also from Sharon McMahon, who's been on both of our shows and is really just an American treasure. I love her. She's great. You know, there's a difference between your opinions and your values. You can change your opinions, but nobody's asking you to, like, abandon your core values. And understanding that difference creates, I think, more ease in all of this. That's a really good caveat. So you can change your opinions, but you don't have to change your core values.

39:27Yeah, one thing that would really frustrate me, especially during the election cycle, is that I would hear, I can't believe so-and-so endorsed Kamala. I'm never supporting them again. Or I can't believe so-and-so endorsed Trump. Or like Carrie Underwood when she sang at the inauguration, canceled everywhere. The cancel culture, like why are we so offended? Why are we so offended? And yes, I understand there are very real issues going on that impact each of us. But each of us has a reason for voting a certain way. And we won't know what that reason is until we sit down and talk with someone. But the cancel culture is something that's so frustrating.

40:05If you aren't following somebody that challenges your ideology and makes you a little uncomfortable, Dan, then I think you need to branch out. Like my media diet is similar to yours. Some of it just makes me a little cringy, but I need to hear it, right? If someone posts something on Instagram that I don't personally agree with, I'm not going to unfollow them because that's their right and that's their view. And my view isn't the only one. I have my core values and they have theirs. But the cancel culture, we're surrounding ourselves with like-minded individuals. And yes, to some extent, you need to have those types of individuals in your life, but it also leads to a very narrow-minded and closed-minded life and can lead to a lot of other issues, decreased empathy, like the things that we're very much talking about.

40:52So it is important. So I challenge anybody listening or watching to just diversify their media palette, diversify who they're following. Just open yourself up a little bit and try to be unoffendable. So I really love Dan. Ironically, I love the BBC and the AP, but I love following 1440. It's a newsletter. It's a daily newsletter. You're familiar with them. And 1440 is the year the printing press originated. It's also the number of minutes in a day, I think, right? Yes. Yes, is it? Hold on. Should we ask Siri? Let me ask Siri. Hold on. Siri, how many minutes are in a day?

41:341 ,440. She didn't say it because she's on Do Not Disturb. I didn't know that. I knew that 1440 was the printing press. But I've also noticed, Dan, that reading my news kind of lowers my anxiety. When I watch it and it's on all day, I start to like, I can feel the anxiety building because we know, you know, if it bleeds, it leads, right? If it bleeds, it leads the newscast. And so there's a lot of sensationalism. Some of the other points that we talked about, number one, broader perspective and increased empathy. Number two, personal growth, critical thinking. You know, number three and four are somewhat similar, greater emotional intelligence and better conflict resolution skills, which is fascinating.

42:14But I want to get into the increased social awareness that can come with having friends that are different. Social cohesion, social awareness, having diverse friends can help you become more aware of social issues and inequalities, promoting a more inclusive mindset. That's why it's important to have friends that are of different race, different religion, you know, especially at a climate now, you know, talking to your friends of color or talking to your LGBTQ friends. You know, where are they coming from? Where are your friends? All different aspects. I think that the social awareness aspect, just being socially aware and not so socially limited and narrow is really, really important.

42:50And it can help bridge social divides. I think what I'm about to say is true, but I'll just float it. To me, like the bottom line of all of these, and we're listing these various benefits that have shown up in the research. But to me, they all kind of come down to empathy and compassion. I would agree with that. There's an underlying tone of compassion and empathy for sure. which can sound a little bit like eating your vegetables, but people with more empathy and compassion are healthier. And this is a research-backed finding. There are health benefits to increasing your compassion. And I think it might be worth saying a little bit about the differences between empathy and compassion and some of the fears that people have when they're told that compassion is good for them, especially in this context around politics.

43:44Just to say, empathy generally is understood as feeling other people's feelings. And that can be overwhelming, it can lead to burnout. Compassion is a little bit of a tweak on that inner posture. It's feeling other people's feelings plus having the desire to help. So that little tweak is ennobling and empowering, even when there's nothing you can do. So if you're watching images of people suffering on the news, even if you have this little phrase in your mind, may you be free from suffering, which is a Buddhist phrase. Or you can tweak it to whatever faith tradition you come from. That changes your inner posture.

44:23It's a chant or a prayer, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. So that's just one thing to say. And then the other thing to say is I hear a lot from people, oh, you're a privileged white guy, comfortable. I mean, you're preaching compassion. But I can't do that. I can't afford that luxury. And the first half of that is true, that I am a privileged white guy. And the second half of that, I think, is up for debate. I'm not here to tell anybody how they should live, and you don't have to listen to me at all. But from my understanding of not only the modern psychological research, but also the contemplative traditions that are so powerful for so many of us today, from the Abrahamic traditions to Buddhism, there is this emphasis on a kind of self, a wise selfishness, to use the term that the Dalai Lama uses, that is in your best interest.

45:12And Paula, you used this word before, like understanding why somebody voted the way they voted, understanding that if you came out of that womb and lived that life, you would likely have the same views as that person. That is very different from endorsing it or being a doormat or giving that person a hug. It's just a mere understanding of why people do what they do and the fact that you might do those same things. That's my understanding of compassion. And it doesn't make you weaker. It actually, according to the data, makes you stronger. It's a cleaner burning fuel if you want to be effective in the world.

45:51I really I like that that distinction is actually trying to do something about it, even if that's a mantra, a chant or a prayer, because it does empower you to want to make the situation better instead of just carrying that burden, because that's what empathy can kind of feel like. I'm putting myself in their shoes and I'm carrying that burden. But then what am I supposed to do about it? So compassion kind of empowers you to do something about it, even if it's something as simple as a chant or a mantra or a prayer. So, yes, that's really I would agree with you, Dan. I think that compassion and empathy is kind of the underlying value, the common denominator in all of this that we're talking about.

46:30The last benefit is the mental and emotional health benefits. Research suggests that diverse social networks can positively impact mental health by reducing prejudice and promoting a sense of belonging. I'll give you an example of like reducing prejudice in a couple of different examples. Dan, when we talk about the, you know, having people in your life that are different, you know, we live in a small town in South Carolina. We don't really have we have trailers and mobile homes here. We have Appalachia. We have a lot of poverty, but poverty looks a lot different. When you say trailer park or mobile home, what comes to your mind?

47:10My kids have friends that live in mobile homes and trailer parks. I had certain narratives in my mind about what that looked like. They're totally different than what it looks like. Also, on the other hand, I think having the socioeconomic diversity in my kids' lives, yes, they're growing up totally different than I did. We grew up with very little. I mean, very little. My kids pretty much have everything they could ever need or want, but understanding that that's not always the case for everyone, understanding that diversity looks like socioeconomic diversity. And some of these kids at school can't afford a school lunch.

47:50They can't afford a backpack. You know, what can we do to step in and fill that gap? But having an understanding of some of those differences, changing the narratives and the norms to exposing my kids. Yes, they're friends. Some of them live in trailer parks and mobile homes. And that, to me, is diversity. That's a different kind of diversity that we don't talk about enough. It's socioeconomic diversity, making sure that we are talking about these people, regardless of your socioeconomic status, with dignity and respect, because it's not about how much money is in your bank account. Some people have more, some people have less.

48:26But the socioeconomic aspect is one of the types of diversity that, you know, here, especially in South Carolina, that we are being exposed to. The other kind of, you know, diversity, my husband, you've met John, he's a tall, skinny white guy. He coached at an HBCU. So he coached for six years at Central State University, Dan, in the Dayton, Ohio area. And that was really eye-opening for us. It was an eye-opening experience. My husband actually, John, got his master's degree from an HBCU while he was there. He started their intramural program. You talk about putting yourself in a situation, having certain expectations or certain narratives, but putting yourself in that situation, you learn something so much different.

49:08Some of our biggest learning moments and moments of compassion and empathy and the moments that have, I would say, I don't want to say shocked us the most about what we've learned and like kind of like shook up the norms is when we've been in those types of situations and been exposed to people that didn't look like us, didn't think like us, didn't have the same amount in their bank account, all the different types of diversity that we're talking about. But we learned so much and we realized that we did have preconceived notions until we put ourselves into those situations. And I am being vulnerable here and I hope people don't like, you know, turn this against me.

49:44But like I've learned a lot about my own preconceived notions. We all have prejudices. We all have biases. And you don't really realize that you have those sometimes until you're put in that situation. I want to continue to be pushed. I want to grow. I want to critically think. I want to be compassionate. I want to be empathetic. And Dan, I want to ask you, I know this is kind of just like a small and even microcosm example of what we're talking about, but you never liked sports. You couldn't care less about sports. And now your son loves them. How has that opened up your world to put yourself in Alexander's world?

50:22Do you have this sports loving son and you couldn't give a flying freak about sports, but now you're in it? Like, how has that opened up your world? They still maybe dismiss the fact that especially when men who don't know each other are together, they would just revert to talking about sports as a empty small talk, you know, sports and lawn care or whatever. But actually, I found that being able being conversant in sports has allowed me to connect with people that I might not otherwise otherwise connect with. And many of these people are quite different from me. And it's not only the fellow dads here in suburban New York, but people I encounter in the course of my day to day life moving through the world who may not have anything really to do with my intimate life.

51:13I can connect with them about sports and going to these sporting events, you know, where, you know, you're just interacting with lots of people. My son is a big fan of the Commanders because my brother-in-law is a pro scout for the Commanders. And I don't travel to go a lot of the game. Yeah. Yeah. That's a big part of this. So we've traveled to all over the country to go to Commanders games. And, you know, we meet other Commanders fans who are staying in the same hotel with us. And this whole discussion at root is about empathy and compassion. And what is that, if not connection? And what do we know about the human animal?

51:48We know that the human animal is deeply social. That is how we survived as a species. And we live in a world that, as I often say, militates against social connection. and the extent to which you can counter program against these larger societal forces that want you with your nose in your phone, want you stuck in your own information silo, want you pursuing your own individualistic aims without thinking about the larger good. If you can turn the volume down on some of these very powerful macro forces and make sure that your life has social connection, not only with your friends and family and other intimates, but also just the world writ large, it is going to be in your best interest.

52:29And that's why the Dalai Lama talks about wise selfishness. Dana, this whole evolution, the compassion evolution and journey that you've been on is just so fascinating to me. The empathy evolution. So I love to see this side of you. I'm still going to make mean jokes to you. Yeah. But you know, when you're going to make the jokes when nobody, it's like not when we're recording and then people will think I'm the jerk. It's always going to backfire on me. because I can't keep my mouth shut and you have perfect timing. It's the truth, right? And we'll leave it at that. But I just want to say I am a more critical thinker.

53:10I'm a better person. I'm a more well-rounded person because of having friends like you in my life. So I'm not going to say that I owe everything about myself to you. Okay, Dan, I draw a line. All right. I know you're like waiting for me to give you a little bit more, but I'm not. That's the most I'm going to concede. So, but I do, I do think we were a good team because we really respected the hell out of one another, but we pushed one another respectfully and we respected where the other person was coming from, even if it wasn't where we were coming from. So that's all I want to say. Yes. Yeah.

53:53Well, I completely agree. And just so you're not hanging out there alone on this brave admission you made before about having had preconceived notions about specific communities of people. I'll say that before I started reporting on evangelicals and before I became such close friends with you, I had lots of preconceived notions. You know, there's that famous, infamous line from The Washington Post about evangelicals that they're uneducated and easily led. That's bullshit. Many, many, many evangelicals are extremely highly educated and there's an enormous amount of diversity within the evangelical world and a lot of intellectual ferment and fervor.

54:31And so, yeah, spending time with you and lots of other folks who come from a similar background has opened my eyes. And so, yeah, I appreciate you. So basically you owe everything to me is what you're saying. We'll just leave it right there so you can't come back with a snarky response. I'm kidding. I still think the Jew and the Gentile has a ring to it if you ever want to do a podcast or some sort of show. You know what I would love to do, Dan? I'm going to put this out there. I think a really powerful show could be you take two polar opposites, okay? Maybe they're ideologically opposed. They're opposed in some capacity, but they're essentially seen as being on two sides, you know, two opposite sides of the spectrum.

55:15and you bring them together in a show and they're doing one thing together that they have in common. Maybe they both love to cook Indian food or maybe they both love to play tennis or they like to crochet or they like to deep sea fish or something. But you find that one thing in common with two diametrically opposed people and you create a show about it. And then imagine the conversations that they could have while they are participating in this one thing that they have in common. I think that could go a long way and I still hold the media I think responsible and liable for creating a lot of the division because we are not as diametrically opposed as it feels like we are at times.

55:54We do have a lot more in common. We need more compassion, more empathy. And I think it starts by focusing on what we do have in common and listening and learning. So anyway, you want to EP that show with me? Sure. Okay. Do you think it's a terrible idea? You can be honest. No, I think it's a terrific idea. Bill Daugherty from Braver Angels should be your moderator. You want to connect me? Sure. I just want to be an EP. I just want to put it out there because I think it could be a really powerful show. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. All righty. Well, I love you, friend. Addie, do you want to say anything?

56:33She was bored to death by this conversation, by the way. She's awesome. She slept the whole time. But send hugs to to to Alexander and to Bianca. And I'll tell the kids that I had a great day with with Mr. Dan, as they still call you. And John says hi, by the way. Yes. Say hi to the family. Love you right back. And thanks for thanks for doing all the work as usual. I'm glad we're friends. I'm so glad we're friends. Yeah, I did do all the work, by the way. that's all right that's all right see look at you look at that open admission right there but now i'm happy to i'm glad that we were able to do this i love your friend thanks for pushing me to be a better version of myself and sometimes just pushing me so