Is There Such a Thing as Healthy Shame and Embarrassment? | JoAnna Hardy

26:14How we show up in the world through the five precepts, not killing, and then speech again, right? Because so many of these lists end up circling in on each other, not stealing. So not taking what isn't freely given, how we are with our speech, how we are with our sexuality and then how we are with intoxicants or mind-altering substances. So those are the five. Killing, stealing, speech, sexuality, and intoxicants. Okay. So let's go within this. Yeah. We're now in a list within a list within a list. I'm sorry. I wish I had a dry erase board. You know, I like the visual of that. Me too. You know, it's helpful.

26:54Me too. Yeah. All right. But I think as long as we're - But that's fine. Yeah. As long as we're clear with the listener, they're cool. Okay, so let's walk through the five precepts. The first one is not killing. This is common to pretty much every faith. But what does it mean? Because you can go really deep and creative on this concept of killing. So hold forth, if you will. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I talked a little bit about this idea of veganism, right? So one would certainly be not taking the life of another human. would be a great place to start. And again, this is, so I'm going to go back to a path factor list of intention.

27:32Intention holds a lot of space in the precepts. So what is our intention versus what is the impact? What's a path factor? Oh, the eightfold path. Okay. So the first is in the wisdom aspect, there's view and intention. Sorry, yo. It all makes so much sense is the thing. And it's just so, yeah, our intention. Let's just think about intention as I walk through these five. There's that old metaphor of the surgeon who has the knife, right? So a knife in the abdomen in the hands of a killer is one thing. A knife in the abdomen of the hands of a surgeon is another, right? So it's sort of like, what is the intention here?

28:19So just knife and abdomen doesn't have to be a bad thing. It depends on what the intention is and who's holding that knife. We could walk through each of the precepts in that way. So this idea of not killing, as anybody that drives a car walks down the street, you know, bugs, insects are killed all the time. And, you know, you'll see in the Jane tradition, they'll actually walk down the street with a broom, you know, and apparently it's to move the bugs out of the way. That's a thing. And when you go on retreats, we'll see there's bug catchers, right? And people will be deep in their samadhi, deep in their meditation practice, and they'll lift and move and shift every bug that they see.

28:58And it feels good, right? Like there's this wholesomeness to it. The other part of this is like, we're not going to kill, but we're also going to protect life, right? So we're going to take care of life. We're going to make sure that life can thrive. You know, if we look at this culturally and societally, I mean, we live in a culture of factory farming where there's a dissonance as most people, I would say, if they really knew or if they had to see where their meat was coming from. And I know there's a lot of people that do exposés and show this. We probably wouldn't be in as much of the meat industry as we are.

29:35And so there's this way that we can really disconnect, just as humans living in a capitalistic society, that this is how we move. And so when we sensitize ourselves because we're in the practice with it, because we've taken it on as a practice, as a way of being in the world, I shared this on when I talked to you before. When I really first took this on, I was living in a house that had rodents, and I didn't want to trap them. I didn't want to kill them. I didn't want to poison them. So I got cats. So that was my sort of first precept, creative way of dealing with the rodents in my house was cats.

30:16And it worked. It was great. Now, they were still being killed. It just wasn't by me. It felt more like the cycle of life. There's the mosquitoes. There's the flies. There's the moths in your rice that you end up wasting the food. I talk to many monastics about what do I do with the moths? Do I kill the moths? or do I throw out the food and then I feel bad because there are starving people, right? And so like we're constantly grappling with this state of what's living and what is harm. And again, that's for us. That's for you. That's a hiposco, like you said, see for yourself. How does it sit with you?

30:54You know, how does it rest with you?

30:59Coming up, Joanna and I continue discussing the precepts.

31:10Okay. So first precept. Yeah. List within a list within a list. We're now on the precepts. The first precept is not killing. The next is not stealing. I mean, there's the obvious interpretation, but how far can we take that? Yeah. And so it's often worded as not taking what isn't freely given, right? So anything that someone didn't say to you, you could have, you shouldn't take. So that can go really far, right? Do you pick the fruit off the tree? Probably not if you're reaching over somebody's wall to take it. When I went to Japan, it was so beautiful. Like I literally could leave something as I did.

31:46I left something for an hour because I forgot it. And I ran back and it was still there. And it was a valuable thing, right? And I was like, oh, wow, there's a really strong SELA here. And I knew that about that place. That's actually why I went at that time because my kids were little. and it was either another place that I won't name or Japan. And I decided Japan because I was taking them by myself because I knew the SILA was so strong there. And I don't know if that's because it is just culturally embedded. I don't know if it's because you get your hand cut off because you take it or what the thing is.

32:16I don't know what the reason is behind it. But knowing that you're in a place, your stuff is safe, feels really good. It feels really good. And that is one of the big parts of the precepts is you are helping others feel safe around you. Others know that they are safe around you. So if I saw a phone sitting somewhere, you know, my tendency would be to pick it up and really make sure it got back to the person that it belonged to. That would feel really good to me. And I would go against all odds to try to make that happen, right? And again, so there's that reciprocity, like, I feel good. This is that thing we were talking about.

32:55There's self-interest here. This is a self-interest, right? You know, now it can go a lot of ways now in terms of a lot of climate activists are using this as like, how are we constantly taking, depleting the earth? You know, we're taking something that isn't ours to take because we are the dominant species and just because we can and because we want it and because we feel like we need it, right? So it can go that far and then it could go something as simple as I really don't like it when my daughter borrows my t-shirts all the time and I can't find them when I want to wear them, right? So she's taking from me and she did not ask me if she could take it.

33:34Now, it's funny until I want to wear that t-shirt. Again, this is something that you could really immerse yourself in. Some people will say taking somebody else's time, right? So that's one that has become a thing or taking, you know, when I was a starving student and I worked for, I will not say who the network was, but I was a page at a network and I really needed toilet paper. And I thought it was perfectly fine to take toilet paper from the bathroom, right? I still think it's fine. But, you know, not a lot of offices get completely depleted because people take all this stuff, you know. So again, for us to really pay attention to, obviously, don't take someone's car.

34:18Don't take someone's, you know, stealing is stealing. But how that differs for us and how we hold it might look really different. Some people feel like they're really sticking it to the man when they take something, right? And they feel like it's justified because they feel like there is an equity. You know, again, I could go way too far with a lot of these, but I think it's good for people to think of for themselves. Yeah. I've heard a link made between speech and not taking what isn't freely offered. Like if you are interrupting somebody, which unfortunately I've done a couple of times in this conversation with you, if you are taking all the attention in a conversation or in a social setting, that could be a second precept issue to explore.

35:03Yeah, for sure. Why not? I mean, that's the thing. I think when people actually decide to do it for themselves and not because they think it's a mandate or because they think they have to or because someone told them to or maybe because they don't really understanding it, they're just thinking at it from a conceptual level instead of really immersing in the precept. And I mean, some of the most interesting things get discovered, right? And that can be one of them. It might be like, wow, I really notice myself doing that often. Third precept is speech again. Back to speech. Yeah. It holds a lot of places.

35:41So yeah, those things I already mentioned, like, is it true? Is it idle chatter? Is it gossip and slander? I mean, Joseph has a great story about gossip and slander. I'm sure you've heard him say it. And I might get the percentages wrong, but he said that he at one point, you know, early on decided to take that one on fully and realized it took about 90 % of his speech away. And that he found he didn't really have much to talk about anymore. if he wasn't talking about somebody else with somebody else. And I think that could be true. I took that one on for a while too. And my friends are like, who are you?

36:11Where did you go? But it felt good. You know, it felt really good. And again, what's beneath it? Like, what's the need? Why do I actually need to share that information about somebody else? Or what is it doing for me? I work at USC. I teach at USC. And working with college kids around, this one is really good. It's really fun. Like, we explore it in a really fun way. And again, like to be liked, you know, often we'll stretch the truth to be more interesting, to have a better life. You know, a lot of them talked about how they just wanted to make more friends and they felt that they weren't enough.

36:50Right. And so speech is powerful. Fourth is sexuality. Fourth is sexuality. And so that's not causing harm through our sexuality. individuality. This one I taught a whole course on too, because it was so filled with so much for people. There's a lot of spaciousness in it. One of the precepts for the monastics, so the monastics have a lot more precepts. The nuns have a certain amount and the monks have a certain amount. It's in the 200s to 300s for them. But one of them was to not have sex with a melon, right? Or what's often said is the Buddha made these precepts because they happened and then he made the precept, right?

37:29So the big ones are don't have sex with animals, don't have sex with minors, which minors for us here in this country, right, is 18. Again, this is a societal number that was put on something. But back then, you know, children got married at 10, 11, 12 years old, 2 ,600 years ago, right? So it was really supposed to be who was under the care of their parents. seduction was one of them like not to seduce whereas now we're like well seduction's kind of nice like there's a part of it but they meant in that way that you were talking somebody out of what they would want to do for themselves right obviously against anyone's will so there's nothing saying anything you know in buddhism around genders it's really consensual sex.

38:18You're not meant to break up a marriage. But beyond that, it's kind of like games on, right? There's nothing, you know, I was talking to, you know, a bunch of young people in Hollywood. A lot of people were suffering around, well, I'm into kink or I'm into these kind of other things. Am I breaking a precept? And again, it's for everyone to explore for themselves. But it was From what I read, as far back as I could, and Bikhu Bodhi actually wrote a lot about communities, and so he brought the precepts into that, and he explored what the suttas might have said. There's a lot of permission, but how much do you trust yourself was a thing.

39:01I was not trustworthy in that area at all, and I caused myself and others a lot of harm around my sexuality. So that was something I really had to learn and learn and learn and learn and didn't want to suffer anymore, right? So I think it's an important one. It's an important one for a lot of people will be like, well, I'm married, so I can't cause harm through my sexuality. But, you know, a lot of harm, you know, can be done even within, I'll call it a marriage, but there's lots of different ways of being in partnership. But the idea of if somebody is withholding their sex, you know, because they're mad at a partner.

39:42And so it's like, don't touch me, which is a punishment. There's ways of overwhelming somebody who might not be interested in having sex, right, even if you're in a partnership. So it's not only about single people. It's not only about breaking your marriage and going out of your marriage. But it can also be like, again, I'm using the word marriage, meaning whatever you called your partnership. And it might be multiple partners, right? But there are ways that we can still cause harm even within certain agreements. So really that consent is a big piece of what I've read that the precept specifically talks about.

40:25to consenting adults. No melons. Not a goat. Not a melon. Actually, melons are okay for us if we're not monks or nuns. Maybe melons. Right. Yeah. That's in the Vinaya. That's for the monks and nuns. Yes, melons are okay. Or whatever. Yeah. It's good to know. See? Permission. Like, there's so much permission. But do you feel good about it? Like, that's what it's going to come down to. I don't know how I feel about it. Don't tell your grocer. Exactly. Before or after, like, keep it to yourself. But yeah, so again, a lot of space there and a lot of harm can be caused there. Yes. Yeah. So we've gone through four of the precepts.

41:07Yeah. Let's do the fifth, which is not using intoxicants to the point of heedlessness. Is that the right? Yeah. So there are some fundamentalist Buddhists that really feel like the word heedlessness was never there. Oh. That it was just no intoxicants, period. There is a sutta that talks about not even so much as on the tip of a blade of grass, right? So pretty much nothing. Some interpret it that way. Again, these are very old suttas that were oral traditions, right, passed down. So the interpreter and how that is relayed. And then some add onto it that lead to heedlessness. So that would be like, at what point do you become heedless after using an intoxicant?

41:54I know many Dharma teachers who drink wine. Oh, as do I. Again, this is for somebody to know for themselves, right? Like I know plenty of people who are addicts, and I worked a lot in that community, who one glass of wine is never going to be okay. For them, the precept of nothing is what's going to cause the least amount of harm, right? So I don't want to give permission to anybody to say, oh, well, some Buddhists do or Dharma teachers do. It might not be okay for that person. And for someone else, that tight, hard limitation feels different than what these precepts are meant to represent, which is, again, see for yourself.

42:39So the use of plant medicines have become a very popular thing. ketamine therapies, psilocybin therapies. And all of these things have really been groundbreaking and so helpful to a lot of people for all kinds of things. And so to put a limitation on and say, absolutely no intoxicants, now whether that's considered an intoxicant or a medicine, right? But to some, it's like hard line, no, nothing that is not natural to our bodies. Well, would those people not use anesthesia? Oh, no. I'm sure they would use anesthesia. Right. So the same thing. I mean, propofol is an intoxicant. Right. Absolutely.

43:18It's the only reason why I will agree to a colonoscopy. Right. Because of the propofol. Right. Not only because I don't feel it while it's happening, but because I enjoy it when I wake up. It's your one moment. Sidebar. I think I might have told you this story before, but I was waking up once from my first colonoscopy And I heard myself say, these drugs are amazing. And the nurse didn't even turn around and just said, third time you're telling me. Third best hysterical. You're like, do I really have to wait seven years for our next colonoscopy? I can't feel a polyp, doctor. Yeah, can we check?

43:58That's awesome. Yeah, so again, that's why I'm saying heedlessness. Like, let's say the word heedlessness is there. And the thing is like, well, heedlessness would be breaking all four of the other precepts, right? Like telling somebody off, killing them, and having sex with them while you're doing it or whatever. And so the point of this is do you have clarity of mind? Are you mindful? Is your samadhi present? Is your mindfulness present? Is your intention present? Can you still be on the path, right? Can you still know your path? Because the path, as is often called, is the prescription, right?

44:30It's a prescription for liberation, to be free from suffering. And so if that heedlessness causes you to suffer or do something like get in a car accident and hurt somebody or something like that, or even maybe saying something you wish you hadn't said because you're just feeling a little more free from that glass of wine or that fifth glass of wine, then it's kind of you're going back. You're spiraling back into, damn it. I fucked around and I found out. Right. So do I need to do that anymore? It's just a question for yourself. Sharon Salzberg, another great meditation teacher, often talks about the fact that the point of meditation is not to get awesome at meditation.

45:11It is to be better at your life. And so this, in some ways, can be seen as a really important extension of the practice. It is. And that's why it's the path. This thing that we keep pounding, this path, it is a number. Oftentimes, people will describe it as the three strands of the braid, the sila, samadhi, and panya. You can't make a braid with just two pieces of hair. You need three. I'm sure there's other ways that people explain it, but they all need each other to live off of. So yes, our understanding of what our meditation practice is naturally in us arises this wellness, this well-being, this stillness, this silence, this clarity, right, is what naturally comes out of our practice.

46:01Coming up, Joanna talks about right livelihood, talk about our Buddhist tattoos, and then we hit a very compelling, provocative topic, the notion of healthy shame and healthy embarrassment.

46:22So just to reset again, sorry to be neurotic about this, but we've been dwelling in a list within a list within a list. There's the eightfold path, just to reset at the top, which is the sort of eight parts of the recipe for getting enlightened. Within the eightfold path are these three aspects of wisdom, meditation, and ethics. And we've been looking at the three aspects of ethics within this bucket of the Eightfold Path. And within one of the aspects of ethics in the Eightfold Path, there's a list within a list within a list, which is the five precepts. So we've now, we've come out of that list within a list within a list.

47:03And we're going back to the 8-flake path. So we've talked about right speech, right action. Again, right action or wise action is where the five precepts live. So let's do livelihood. Okay. Don't know much about this. What I do know is there are, from the perspective of the Buddhist teaching, anything where you deal in meat, like harming animals, arms, so firearms, alcohol, like all the things that would have you breaking these precepts, right? So dealing in gambling or making your livelihood off of extrapolating or harming somebody else. Then what would wise livelihood or right livelihood or wholesome livelihood be?

47:52Well, what we do, right? Spreading the Dharma, talking about how people can live better, reflection, contemplation. There are so many beautiful ways of making money. And even some of those, I have a lot of friends who are, let's go back to that first precept for a second. One of their livelihoods is being sustainable farmers, right? So they're raising animals. And actually, this is where we buy from. We buy from these family farms that are raising their animals free range and are eating off of the hills and the valleys of California, and I have not been in the kill room, but are humanely killing the animals, for lack of a better word.

48:37There are, I'm sure, livelihoods now that maybe would have been seen as one way and aren't now. I mean, some people are even considering hunting in the way that hunting's being done these days as truly ethical practices and using the whole animal. So I respect that. So in terms of livelihood, again, same for yourself, but I don't even like saying some of the things, right? Because it's like being a bar owner, selling, having a liquor store. And some of those people are quite lovely people and they're family businesses. And there are people that are making amazing wines and have these vineyards.

49:13I actually had a student who ran a vineyard and he was coming to me because he was in distress. I kept really grappling with is this wise livelihood. And so we spent months together working on this, right? Because I wasn't going to give him an answer. It's not my place to say anything, but he really worked through it. I think one way to look at this is this list comes from the Bronze Age, I think, 2 ,600 years ago. And the Buddhists always had this caveat of a hiposite code, come see for yourself. So there's this list, but I don't know that every bar owner listening to this needs to be in their life.

49:53It's like, all right, let's figure out how we relate to this. How does it feel for us? How does it feel for us? I mean, if you keep pouring a 14-year-old into a cab at the end of your shift, it might not be the most wholesome way of spending your day. Again, how does it feel, truly? And people need to make money, and some people are supporting families. And one of the beautiful things about the path, again, thinking long, thinking far, thinking wide, is is there a possibility to work towards something different? And so many people I know that are working through. One of my students was a dancer in a club, you know, and she was really trying to work through was this the right way for her.

50:35And we spent about a good five years working through it, you know, and working on it. And it was a long-term practice. And it was beautiful. And again, it was for her to work through. I was there to support her. And no one was calling it wrong or bad or something she shouldn't do. It was something that was helpful and necessary at the time. You have a tattoo. Yeah, I have a tattoo. Wow. Inspired by, are you friends with Spring Washam? Yeah. She was supposed to be on the call this morning too. Just for context, tell us about the call that you're referencing. There's a call that a few black female teachers have, sometimes rarely, sometimes more often.

51:17And there are a few teachers that are on this call. And Spring was meant to be on the call, but I couldn't make it this morning. She and I, not far from here, we're like about an hour or two south of here, did a one-on-one loving kindness meditation retreat many years ago. And she was joking during it that she wanted me to get the words for the benefit of all beings tattooed on my chest. so I got an acronym of it F-T-B-O-A-B on my wrist which actually is much more useful than a chest tattoo because I see it all the time and this is just a reminder it's a mindfulness bell I love it I have upekka on my arm which is a similar yes upekka not to be confused with woody upekka is the Buddhist term for equanimity Yeah.

52:07Yeah. It says, I am the heir to my own karma. My happiness or unhappiness are dependent upon my actions, not upon my wishes. So this is Sila, right? And that's a big reason why I got it. My actions, not upon my wishes. Make mistakes, fall, show up. Would it be fair to say that making mistakes, that is a part of the path? Absolutely. Well, I mean, it's part of being human, right? Yeah. I mean, from the time that we learned to crawl, from the time we learned to walk, if we call falling down when a baby's learning to walk a mistake, then it's not a mistake, right? It's just part of learning. It's part of growing.

52:52It's part of strengthening. It's part of doing something new and different. If we've been living a certain way and that's all we know, and we're conditioned in that way of living, then it's not necessarily a mistake. It's just we're growing out of one way of being into another. And then it's interesting because once we start to know, it's that sort of thing. There's a fable, a story I love to read. It's called Autobiography in Five Short Chapters. And it's you're walking down a street. You fall into a hole. You're in the hole. You don't know where you are. You can't get out. It's not my fault.

53:25And then you're chapter two. walking down the street fall into the hole it's not my fault but you get out third chapter walking down the street fall into hold again how did I get here you get out fourth chapter walking down the street fall into the hole it is my fault you get right out fifth chapter you walk around the hole right so it's it's that way like takes a while so is that a mistake at first when you don't know you're unaware it's not your fault you don't even know how you got there but then slowly over time we learn there's even a sixth chapter where you walk down a different street right so so it's yeah it's sort of the the beauty again of that longer path where nobody's hopefully beating us up for it nobody's shaming us for it nobody's telling us we're a bad person for it but we learned through that repeated intention of wanting to grow like that north star is there.

54:26We have these guidelines. We have these paths. We have these lists. And they're very helpful. And it's a lot. A lot of these lists at first can feel it. Some people say it's like driving a car for the first time, right? Where there's like the gear shift and the review mirror and there's other people and there's the steering wheel and there's this and there's that. But then after a while, you get in a car and you're just driving it, right? Smooth. You got it. Accidents will happen will be taken by surprise, but it becomes more smooth. And that's kind of how these path factors and these precepts all start to work together in this body of awareness.

55:01And we oftentimes recognize things quicker, like our response time doesn't take so long. And then again, that's where maybe being intoxicated, our response time might take a little bit longer. So, oh, like I know that, right? Or for me, like with the speech part, right now in certain political situations, I really have to pay better attention than I would at other times. When I know I'm going to be with certain people or in certain situations, my tendency might be to want to really educate. I'll put it in those terms. It might not always be useful or timely or helpful or wise or kind. And so that's where all of these really, so then I need to have mindfulness of my body and awareness, right?

55:54And so this is being in that car. Like we're all in that car together. You're going to annoy me. That car is going to be over there. Yeah. But can I just keep driving? There's my, there's direction I'm going. And yeah. So how much can we hold? How much can we hold at once? Yeah. This actually kind of brings us nicely to Hiri and Otapa. Okay. So the conventional wisdom in psychological circles is that shame is unhealthy. Right, right. In Buddhism, there's this pair of concepts. And by the way, now we've kind of left the list area. There's this pair of concepts, Hiri, H-I-R-I, and Otapa, O-T-T-A-P-P-A, I think.

56:38Yep. Which are sometimes referred to as moral shame and moral dread. Yeah. And these are healthy things. How do we understand this as a kind of healthy version of shame? Yeah. These as a kind of healthy version of shame. And these are such bad translations, truly. And again, I feel like these are translations that were, you know, kind of like every version of the Bible goes through the diaspora of the time and who's writing it, right? And I'm like, I'm not quite sure who put those translations on it. But so can I kind of frame it how, in my experience, and how some of the teachers that like Ajahn Suchito or Carol Wilson might frame it that has really made it helpful for me to understand is we're born into these bodies that has this natural desire.

57:27Maybe even if we had a good enough parent, we learn to empathize and come into sync with a primary caregiver or givers or tribe. Our nature is to want to please, right? To want to get a positive response. To want to have a nice, pleasant feedback where there isn't punishment involved or an ouch involved. This is a really great way that I like to think of Hiri. It's that natural way of wanting to show up with grace and care. And it is a mental state, you know, a mental way of being. It's often called our conscience where we can read the room. Like we can see what's in front of us. And the response that we hope to get is the same one that we're giving.

58:20We don't want to be punished. Would you say hearing is what we're checking in on when we are fucking around and finding out? Right. But it's that pre-knowing. It's that way. Like if we're just walking down the street and we're in a good mood and we just want to say hi to everybody and we don't need anything bad to happen. We're just like interested in having a good day and we want everyone else to share in that good day. It's that thing. But it's also that experience of like that moment maybe when you say something to someone, you're having your good day and you're like, nice hair, right? And you're seeing that they are like, what do they mean by that?

58:57And then you're kind of having that moment of like, oh shit, like, ew, ew, that felt bad. Like, I wish I hadn't said it in that way, right? It's that instant feedback. It's that instant, and it's not, yes, they had a response, but it's that like, you wish that hadn't come out of your mouth. You know, something as simple as that. And so the moment when you understand that there's been an impact on the person, that's the otapa. So the hiri is that real desire just for it all to go well. It's that understanding of knowing how you are impacts the other person. This was the word I was looking for. Just like self-respect, conscience, instinct, your inner ick is one that really works for me.

59:47I feel really good about myself, this self-respect that we're talking about, this self-awareness, when I behave and show up in the world in a certain way. This is that idea of hearing. so where the word shame came from around that and how it's sometimes translated is meant to be a growth point from it is that moment of that inner ick i knew it happened so the point is not to beat yourself up so guilt and shame can often be like kind of put together but guilt is so self-involved right it's really like i did something bad and you kind of spin it on yourself and you start like trying to dig your way out of it and apologizing, but not apologizing because you care about how they felt, but apologizing because you want them to feel good about you again, right?

1:00:35So guilt often comes with that, right? It's, I feel like I did something bad and I don't want them to think poorly of me. Shame, from what I understand, is far more, can be very productive. It can be a growth point. It can be something to say, I didn't like how that felt and how can I change through that? How can I not do that again? And how can I have a different understanding? How can I experience it again in my body? Like if we think of the preverbal child when they are reading somebody else, it's not, there's no words coming from it. But there's a feedback loop where they're kind of going, oh, hmm.

1:01:10You know, I watch it with my dogs. My dogs understand like, oh, she didn't like that. It's out of my vocabulary, right? I don't do that behavior anymore. And that can look good and bad, right? Because some kids can just be punished, so things are punished out of them. So this is where I think it gets interesting around conditioning versus pure behavior, right? Not conditioned behavior, but that pure desire to want to be a good human and to, again, have empathy and to connect. So let me just see if I can sum this up. Yeah. And this is a lot of my interpretation, like my understanding of it. I don't expect anything.

1:01:53Okay. Heary. So we're talking about Heary and Otapa. Often, you would argue, mistranslated as moral shame and moral dread. Heary, my understanding, based on talking to you in this conversation thus far, is this inner knowing we have is like, it doesn't feel good when I'm an asshole. Exactly. And Otapa is kind of, it's a moral shame in that like, we have an inner sense of like when we've put a foot wrong. Right. moral dread or otapa is kind of about a healthy sense of worrying what other people think of us. It's an impact. Yeah. Yes. How we are in the community, how our relationships are with other people.

1:02:33Sometimes I've heard it described as like, would you want your Buddhist teacher to see you doing this? It's funny. Yeah. We always talk about, would you want them to see that in your grocery cart? Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. I'm going to give you an example of a moment I had. I was dropping Andre off at the airport, my husband at the airport. And this woman flipped me off. I was pulling out in my car. I've never road raged before. Let's put that first. I've never had that experience of road rage. And so normally I'm just kind of, because I've learned from my practice, I would rather be like, oh, I'm sorry.

1:03:09Yeah, you're right. I'll just keep driving. Or no one can piss me off that much. It's not really worth it. Well, this woman, oh, I'm going to precursor it with, it was the day of the fires here in Los Angeles. So we're talking February, early February. And Los Angeles was on fire. And I had a lot of friends who were very impacted. And we were impacted a little bit. But I was in a mood, right? So I wasn't as maybe grounded or mindful or engaged with myself as normal. I was upset. It was a really tragic day one. So I was dropping him off at the airport and I'm pulling out. I didn't know this woman was trying to get in and she's flipping me off and just like yelling at me.

1:03:53And I was like, whoa, I didn't even know you were there. So I was like, okay, okay. And I'm shuffling to get out. And then she ends up blocking me unintentionally. So I very intentionally laid my hand on the horn for like 10, 15 seconds, like long, hard, loud, But to the point where the guy who was directing traffic says to me, it's not that big of a deal, lady. Like he's saying that to me, right? And then she and I are both like this at each other. It was so satisfying. It felt so good. So good. Did it though? In that moment, it was everything. And I was like, why haven't I done this before? In that moment, the second I pull away, Otapa.

1:04:38Right. I lost my Hiri. Hiri was gone. Awareness was gone. I was all caught in righteousness and anger and whatever else was there, indignation. And it took seconds after, especially when the guy, he was so calm. He was like, it's not that big of a deal, lady. It was like, ding. And I'm driving away, and Ota Pai hit me. Healthy embarrassment. Healthy embarrassment. And just like, really, Joanna, was it really worth it? It was three seconds of total pleasure. And it was more like release, you know, like all of the whatever was coming up from the fires. And it just was like, thank you for showing up so that I could have you to release on, you know.

1:05:26But then after just that, like, oh, that was not my best me. I wanted to take it back. And that lasted, so the three seconds of pleasure, the otapa lasted three hours. I mean, it lasted, I'm still talking about it, right? So it's still here. Like there's still, just like there's still a spider I killed. But to this day, I can see it when I think about like the first precept, right? Or it's funny, the stuff that'll really stick with you. So it's that moment of really understanding. I used to work in prisons and in juvenile detention facilities, and a lot of times they would talk about those five seconds that changed their lives, right, and where they are now.

1:06:09Because we like to think of people in prison as bad people, you know, and it's like a bad moment that somebody had. And that's like the true outplay of Otapa, right? But it's that I made a commitment to myself that I don't need to do that again, right? And that feels really good. It feels good to have that knowing. I'd heard about road rage, and I know a lot of people that really like it, like they get off on it, right? It's like such a thing for some people are road ragers even, like they label themselves. And I was like, yeah, I don't need that. I don't need that label. I don't need that tattoo.

1:06:46My mouth is just unskillful at times. I think I'm really smart and clever and funny and right. And so I often will have these experiences where I will have said something to a friend and I've gotten very good at apologies. I'm sorry so that I feel better, not the guilt kind of apology, but the, oh, I really understand that that was unskillful. I want them to know that I know. And sometimes I'll make that call and they'll be like, I don't even know what you're talking about, right? Which is fine. It was still my hearing. It was still my Harry and my Otaba. And there's other times that they'll just be like, yeah, thank you.

1:07:26You know, that did feel a little odd. It just gives me clarity. It gives me clarity on the moment. You know, there's obviously like the tiniest of things that we do. And then there's, again, just going back to like these social consciousness of maybe you're indoctrinated into a family or a worldview where something I would see as really atrocious is part of your culture. that's part of the way that you were raised and so it fits i wonder about that i think about that you know we're we're born into different eras the buddha talks about this is getting into a whole other thing but just talks about when we talk about karma right which is action when we talk about action like karma is a big part of it intention and action but our karma could be very much dictated by the era that we're born, the body that we're born into, you know, the families that we're born into.

1:08:26And so when I think about hearing otapa in that term, is it truly like a human knowing without any conditions yet on it? And then how often do we need to get deconditioned or unlearn? You know, so again, that's something that I just like to play with and grapple with? Because we can get very righteous in ways of being or ways of thinking or ways that we think other people should be. And where does Hiriyan Otapa live in that? I think what makes them, I keep saying this is kind of a healthy version of shame and a healthy version of embarrassment. And this might be a good place to kind of wrap it up.

1:09:09I think what makes them healthy as opposed to unhealthy is that an unhealthy shame, which is most shame, frankly and guilt and embarrassment is your there's a lot of self in it you're telling yourself a story i did this quote-unquote bad thing i am a bad person right i'm this kind of person because i did that thing you're putting your head further up your ass because you're telling yourself this whole story about yourself as opposed to the healthy part is like yeah i um in buddhism it's sometimes refer to as like a wise remorse. Yeah. I did this bad thing. I should make the call and apologize and demonstrate that I clearly understand and offer to make some sort of amends.

1:09:51But I'm not stuck in what I sometimes call like a psychic constipation where I'm, to keep going with the scatological references here, where nothing can happen. Nothing can move because I'm stuck in this story about myself as opposed to thinking about what the harm might have been to somebody else. Absolutely. Yeah. No, that's good. It's got a lot to go. The term that you used earlier, it's that self-involved. It's a difference between self-awareness and self-involved, right? Yes. Because, again, it takes us out of the relational aspect if we're using SELA in terms of the relational aspect, and it's just spinning us in on ourselves.

1:10:31And we know what that feels like sitting on the cushion. So when we've had a bad day of SELA, right, it's a different experience to sit on the cushion. It's a different experience in our meditation if we're spending all of our time in a review of the day before or a review and how you're a bad person and how you're being self-critical. It's really different than watching what happens, what's so beautiful when we're not constantly breaking the precept or causing harm in some ways. We actually get to see the practice as it truly is, which is how the mind works and how we can have spaciousness and how it can be such a beautiful, intimate review of what's actually happening versus, again, the conditioned response and habit response to a behavior.

1:11:23We don't get past that if we're constantly like apologizing or in some way in our mind just spinning out yeah we don't get to grow yeah again it's a it's a path before i let you go yeah is there something we should have talked about but didn't well i mean forgiveness is a good just a little a good thing to have on this Just as a practice to, when we make that mistake or break that precept, as we call it, that understanding is, again, like you had pointed out, it's not helpful to beat ourselves up. It's not helpful to beat somebody else up. And how the forgiveness practice works is, have I caused harm to myself?

1:12:14have I caused harm to somebody else or has somebody caused harm to me? And all these are practices to liberate our hearts from a precept that's been broken or maybe one that's been broken that we've had the impact from. Forgiveness practice has been a really nice way for me. I could not actually let myself out of that cycle that you were talking about until I forgave myself for some of the harms that I caused through breaking the precepts. or through not having strong sila. And it's not forgiveness in a superfluous way of like, oh, now it's better, right? It's never to say, oh, I'm forgiven, now I can do it again, or I forgive you, now you can harm me again.

1:13:00It's very much a way to liberate our hearts from the constant chatter of shame or remorse or guilt that is not the healthy version, not the true Hiri Othaba version. Can you just run through the practice one more time so people, if they want to do it in their own life, can do it? Yeah. So the first part is how I've caused harm to myself. And it's often phrased beautifully as knowingly or unknowingly, out of my own hurt or confusion, how I've caused harm to myself, how I've caused harm to somebody else, knowingly or unknowingly out of my own confusion or delusion. and then how has somebody else caused me harm, which can often be the biggest one for people, especially if there's been any childhood trauma or abuse that can really take over somebody's whole life, right?

1:13:58And it's hard to grow past and beyond that. It can be a really big heart's release. So how somebody else may have caused harm to you, knowingly or unknowingly out of their own confusion or delusion. It's not only a forgiveness practice, but a compassion practice. Yeah, it's quite beautiful. I actually couldn't do metta practice until I forgave myself. I couldn't allow myself metta for myself until I forgave myself for a lot of my earlier life harms and transgressions. Yeah. Yeah. So that all just feeds each other, right? So then that makes me want to just show up as a better human. And do I make mistakes?

1:14:42Yes. Do I have awareness around it? Yes. Yeah. Not everybody likes me. Who doesn't like you? Other than the woman in the car. Right. She probably really likes me now though. We actually had a good agreement. Our fuck yous were like, we got it. We saw each other. We were looking right in each other's eyes. For those listening who do like you and want to get more from you, So where can we, do you have a website? I do. Where can we learn more about you and also maybe talk a little bit about your work at Apple? Yeah. Well, I do have a website, joannahardy.org. I'm not doing a whole lot right now, mostly because I'm just giving myself a little bit of a break.

1:15:24I do teach retreats occasionally. I have a group in Los Angeles of people who live in Los Angeles and want to come to that group. And then I am working for Apple at Fitness Plus. It's a great app, and I do 5, 10, and 20-minute meditations. And we do things like calm and sleep and sound and focus and resilience and kindness. So there's lots of great meditations that we do. And it's really, it feels like great livelihood. I feel like I'm getting to reach a lot of people who wouldn't normally go to meditation because it is a fitness app. So people are going to work out and to get fit, and then suddenly they stumble upon this meditation thing.

1:16:08And a lot of people just, it's kind of the add-on to all of their workouts, you know. So it's a great way to integrate it into your day, you know, even if for five minutes in your car. So I'm really appreciating getting to do that work. And then we'll see what's next. I appreciate you coming on the show. Thank you. Thank you.

1:16:32Thanks again to Joanna Hardy. Just to say to you, the listener, right speech is in itself a vast discipline, and I will drop in the show notes some links to episodes we've done on this. It's so fascinating. Don't forget that we've got a guided meditation that comes with this episode. It's from our Teacher of the Month, Seben A. Selassie, who is also a close friend of mine and Joanna's. And it's all about how to tune into your inner guidance system, to use Seben A's term. The goal here is to help you operationalize everything you just learned in that conversation with Joanna and just pound it into your neurons, as I like to say.

1:17:09Seb will also be doing a live meditation and Q &A session on Tuesday, October 21st. These guided meditations are only for people who are subscribers over at danharris.com. Subscribers also get weekly live meditation and Q &A sessions. The next one's coming up on Tuesday, October 21st. That's me solo. And finally, don't forget about the meditation party retreat on October 24th through 26th. Seb will be there. Jeff Warren, Afosu Jones-Korte. It's going to be awesome. Link in the show notes. Finally, thank you to everybody who worked so hard on this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasili.

1:17:44our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at pod people Lauren Smith is our managing producer Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer DJ Kashmir is our executive producer and Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme