Lust, Addiction, and Ambition: Why Your Desires Are Wired to Disappoint You | Joseph Goldstein

31:21So then why not aim for the highest? We're not giving anything up in the sense, yeah, we'll still have worldly sense pleasures. We'll develop the concentration, the insight, maybe a little visit to the heaven realms along the way. It's expanding our vision of what's possible for us as human beings. because often we have just a very limited view of what brings happiness and peace. So that's what's so beautiful about the teachings.

31:51Coming up, Joseph talks about why there may be nothing to want in the end, a simple Buddhist framework called gratification, danger, and escape, and why letting go can actually feel better than getting what you think you want.

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34:17So a few minutes ago, you gave a very practical meditation instruction, which could be done in meditation or just in our free range living to let a desire pass, to watch it pass, come and go, which, by the way, I think is another phrase. But there are other meditation instructions that I've heard you deliver that I think might be worth talking about. One of them is a phrase that you've already uttered in the course of this conversation, but I've heard you describe it as a thing we can do in our practice. And the phrase is not wanting. How can we use that practically? So that first came to me again on retreat.

35:01So this is also a plug for people when they have the opportunity and interest to actually come on retreat because periods of intensive meditation practice, they deepen our concentration, they strengthen our mindfulness, so they do all these things. But it's also where a tremendous amount of learning about our own minds take place because we're just devoting some period of time to watching it. And as my teacher, Manindraji, said when I first went to India, looking for a teacher, I met him. He said something so basic. It hooked me. It completely hooked me. He said, if you want to understand your mind, sit down and observe it.

35:44I loved it. There was nothing to join, no ceremony, no ritual. How else could we understand our minds except by observing? So this is a plug, a little plug for retreat practice. There's just so much that we discover. So I was on, on the self retreat and a phrase came to mind that's found in the Buddhist texts often, very simple phrase, but one with tremendous implication. And according to the stories in the texts, people sometimes would hear the phrase and get enlightened. so Dan here's your chance whatever has the nature to arise which is everything will also pass away whatever has the nature to arise will also pass away so I was sitting I was sitting meditation quite deep into my practice and that thought came to mind But it wasn't the thought that would happen like if I were reading the text, where I would, oh yeah, everything's impermanent.

36:56And we kind of just acknowledge and pass over it. But because it arose in my sitting, it really felt like that phrase entered the very process that was going on in me. So it felt very internalized. So whatever has the nature to arise will also pass away. right in the midst of my just being with the flow of changes. So then my mind, in seeing, in being in the lived experience of that phrase as it came, and the obvious truth of it, so then my mind just thought, particularly in the context of meditation, Therefore, there's nothing to want. Because whatever I want will also pass away. And it was amazing.

37:48So just in that moment, that thought came, whatever has an itch to arise will also pass away. Oh, therefore, there's nothing to want. In that moment, I could feel my heart and my mind relax back from a subtle wanting that I didn't even know was there. It was just that, we've talked about this before, that subtle leaning into the next moment. And that leaning could be kind of a wanting for more concentration or a wanting more calm. or some wanting, but therefore there's nothing to want. And I could just feel that dropping back, which is really the nature of mindfulness. It's not wanting, it's just being present and letting things unfold.

38:43And so now, sometimes I'll just drop that phrase, there's nothing to want, just in the middle of my sitting, if it comes to mind. There's nothing to want. and very often I'll feel the same dropping back because that wanting can be super subtle. As I said, where we don't even know it's there. I have found it useful too. Yeah. When I remember to do it, it's like a relief. Yes. So there are all these little, I don't know if this is the right expression, meditative hacks. Just these little reminders of profound things. Yes. It's the whole spirit of this book we're working on. Yes, yes. What I'm about to say could represent a faulty memory on my part, but I have a memory of being on retreat with you and you telling me about some words from the Buddhist texts, maybe even words from the Buddha himself that could be used as a meditation instruction.

39:42And those words are gratification, danger, and escape. Is that ringing a bell for you? It doesn't ring a bell that I told you that, but the phrase rings a bell. Okay, so can you describe what those words mean and how we could apply them in our mind? Those words have been the subject of an hour-long Dharma talk. So this is going to be a very compressed version of it. And in fact, I have talks on that, which people could listen to. Let me just put in a plug for that. Dharmaseed.org, D-H-A-R-M-A-S-E-E-D.org. I will put a link to that in the show notes if you're driving. There's a website that has compiled thousands of so-called Dharma talks.

40:26Those are the talks that are given during the evening on meditation retreats. And you can search by subject matter and by teacher. It's an amazing resource. And if you want to listen to Joseph talking about gratification, danger, and escape, or anything else, really, check it out. Okay, go ahead. So gratification is the Buddha's acknowledgement that we do have gratification, as we were just talking a little bit earlier, from ordinary sense pleasures. There is a level of gratification and pleasure that comes from them. And the Buddha said, it's because of the gratification that beings are enamored of this world.

41:09there is the acknowledgement yes that's this is part of our lived experience that things do bring us pleasure you know and a certain level of happiness so it's not denying that so that's the gratification part in brief the danger is that when we cling to them we suffer. Because if we're clinging or attached to something which in its very nature is going to change, the result is some kind of distress. So an image that actually a meditator came up with, we might have talked about this previously, he used the image, inscribing his own experience, of rope burn. So if you're holding on tightly to a rope that's being pulled through your hand, the tighter you hold on, the more rope burden you're going to have.

42:07Well, we do this a lot in our lives, unknowingly. Whenever we're attached to something, to the rope, which is inevitably being pulled through our hands, things are changing in their very nature. The tighter we hold on, the more we suffer. So that's the danger. So there is a gratification, but it's not without its danger. The escape is to free the mind from the clinging and from the attachment to just our momentary experience. So it's not thinking we shouldn't have these experiences. We can't. I mean, that's impossible. You know, we're being with six senses, mind included. So sense experiences are going to be happening all the time.

42:58But the key issue is whether we get attached and cling or not, or just stay open in our experience of them without that grasping. So that's the escape. The escape, again, just to put a fine point on that, is essentially it's just the ability to be mindful of whatever our desire is, whatever our clinging is. Right, whatever we're clinging to. Yes. and just to watch it come and go. It kind of goes back to the letting the desire pass. Yes. So how would we use this phrase, gratification, danger, and escape in our practice? Well, one is just as a kind of reflection. Either when we are beginning to obsess on some level about the gratification, we're either having or anticipate having from a sense experience, just reflecting on the three phrases.

44:04Okay, yes, acknowledge there is a gratification, but watch out for the danger. It's like having a sign on the beach, dangerous undertow, something like that. There's a potential danger. And danger means, it's just another word for suffering. The Buddha is just reminding us, be careful here. There is a gratification, but if you get attached, and the stronger the attachment, the more suffering there will be when things change. I think it's more kind of a reflection than practicing, not holding on, practicing the escape from the danger. This goes back to what we were just saying before about how much more easeful it is, the state of not wanting than wanting.

44:56So we think we're giving something up, taking away our happiness. That's just the product of advertising. Right, it's a counterintuitive upgrade. That's a good expression. so there are a couple of words that the buddha uses that i've heard you repeat approvingly in this regard that are actually this is really just totally in line and apropos of the counterintuitive upgrade because these are words that we do not generally use in a positive way but the buddha does disenchantment and disillusionment yeah i love those words Yeah, usually when we hear those words, somebody's disenchanted or disillusioned, we think it's a downer.

45:43They're no longer in a good space or in an uplifted space. But if we just look a little more carefully at the actual word, disenchantment means waking up from the spell of enchantment. You know, and there are a million fairy tales about this, you know, of the wicked witch or somebody coming and casting a spell, you know, on whoever. And then they're in limbo until, well, they turn them into a frog or something, waiting for the Prince Charming to come and give them a kiss. You know, they wake up from the spell. So disenchantment is totally freeing. We're waking up from being enchanted by delusion.

46:29I'm just not seeing clearly what brings happiness. And disillusionment is the same thing. Why would we want to live in illusion? Well, we really see what the word means. It's good to be disillusioned so we can see things accurately. disillusionment in its very essence the word doesn't mean despair or withdrawal or apathy or doesn't mean any of that it means seeing without illusion so i guess there could be some people would argue with that but it's hard to see why of course we want to see things without illusion. So that's why I love those words. Well, in the same spirit, another thing the Buddha said that I've heard you also repeat very approvingly is what the world calls suffering, I call happiness.

47:27What the world calls happiness, I call suffering. Yeah, it's all in the same mode. It's like that Nasruddin story where we're looking for happiness in the wrong place because it's the conventional place to look. It seems to be more light there. We can see potential happiness more easily, but it's the wrong place. That's not where genuine happiness is to be found. So it'd be good to be disillusioned of the belief that it is to be found there and to be disenchanted with the experience of it and to wake up to greater potentials for happiness. The Dharma is so straightforward. None of this is super esoteric, and it's all testable.

48:23And this is one aspect of the Buddhist teachings which attracted me from the beginning. It was never a question of you have to believe this, or dogma, or blind faith. it was always just come and see for yourself test it out that's what our practice is testing all these teachings in the laboratory of our lives those were the words the Buddha used come see for yourself come and see those were the words in Pali come and see not come see for yourself come and see

49:02coming up Joseph talks about this very powerful question, how much is enough? We also talk about why contentment might be the real form of wealth and the difference between guilt and wise remorse.

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51:30And I think you recommended it. I was at a moment of career crisis, and you recommended I discuss it with Bianca, my wife, just how much is enough? Yes. That's a great question to ask because, again, it goes back to kind of the nature of our society and culture, which is in so many ways, you need more. Whatever you have is not enough. You need a better car or a bigger house or this or that. Have you ever seen an ad that says, you have enough? I think we should have an ad campaign. You have enough. Or you are enough. Or you are, yeah, even better. And of course, this is not to say that there are not people who don't have enough.

52:22So we want to acknowledge the full range of human experience. so we're talking about situations here where people do have genuinely enough they have enough food they have enough shelter they're just the basic needs to lead a reasonably comfortable life so it's not about that but once those basic needs even including basic level of an enjoyable life to hold that question, well, how much is enough, can really free the mind from that kind of unhealthy and stressful, ambitious striving for more and more and more. Because that's just more grasping and more clinging, and it does not create happiness in our lives.

53:21the Buddha said the highest wealth, the greatest wealth is contentment. And that's really a beautiful statement because we always think of wealth as accumulation instead of wealth as a state of mind. So if the mind is contented, there is tremendous wealth. It's enough. Have everything I need. And when it's not contentment, no amount is enough. So again, it's just these very simple, simple truths that we can come and see for ourselves whether it's true or not. Yes. As I'm listening to you, I'm experiencing these like curly cues of truly deluded thoughts. Like, I know these thoughts are stupid, but I'm going to say them out loud because I suspect I'm not the only one who has these kinds of thoughts.

54:21This is, this gets tangled. I was just thinking about, so I used to be a news anchor and then I retired. And, you know, I think there were probably people in my industry who raised an eyebrow. You know, you walked away from, I had like pretty good job, walked away to be a fucking meditation guy, you know. And so just say none of this works out, right? I do this thing where I project myself into their minds, looking back at me, thinking what would they think of me? And so, sure, I could live in a very simple way with my wife and son. I'm quite sure I could largely be happy with that, even though I would be, you know, my late capitalistic mind state would have to get updated a little bit.

55:04But then I think about what would other people think of me in those, quote unquote, degraded circumstances. Do you see where I'm going with this? I do. Pretty deluded.

55:17First, there are a few threads here. One is, one thing when Ninja told me years ago, it has saved me so much suffering, said, you can't take responsibility for other people's minds. You can take responsibility for your own, which just relieves such a burden. People are going to think what they think about you And you have no control over it. It may be accurate. It may be inaccurate. They can have all kinds of thoughts or projections or whatever. If you're clear in yourself and you're leading an ethical good life, why do you care what other people think? You can control it. And what does it matter?

56:04That's their mind. That is their challenge to deal with their mental viewpoints. Yeah, but in this case, it's even dumber than that because this is me projecting into other people. I don't even know what they're thinking. They might be envious. Yeah, whatever. Whatever they think, the key to unhooking from even projecting what you think they might think is to realize who cares what they think. It's important. I have to qualify that. if the people we're talking about we respect as having wisdom and understanding and balance, we might want to really listen because wiser people than ourselves can often be a tremendous help.

56:54And of course, that's the great benefit of being with wise people. And the Buddha emphasized the value of hanging out with wise people as opposed to unwise people. So in that regard, it would be valuable to care what they think, right? Because it can be helpful. But I'm talking in a more general way with people not in that category. So just another example of you have already experienced the wealth of contentment. It's like when you or I'm on retreat could be living in a simple room. With a bed, a chair, maybe a desk. That's it. Like when you go to a meditation center. Very simple. Simple living.

57:48When I was in India, even more basic, or much more basic, they were some of the happiest times of my life. I was so happy to have a place where I could practice the physical surroundings. First one just gets used to them, it's not even an issue. And they were irrelevant. Conditions were pretty bad. It didn't matter at all. I was so happy. So we can learn, and we do learn in situations like that, that happiness is just not dependent on what we think it is. And that's a great thing to reflect on. And even without going to India or living in a one-room meditative cell or whatever, we don't have to go to that extreme.

58:43But just realizing in whatever we have and we're content, there's just an ease and a peace and we get off the treadmill of always wanting more. Can I go back to something you said a minute ago that is slightly off the theme of this episode, but it's just interesting and probably worth saying a little bit more about. You talked about like why care so much what other people think with the important asterisk that we should care about what some people think. It reminded me of a Buddhist concept. I think it's called hiri or otapa. It's like a healthy shame. Shame generally is not so helpful, but there is a kind of healthy shame.

59:24Can you just say a little bit more about that? Yeah. So the Buddha talked about these. The Pali terms are hiri, otapa, and they're two different related mind states. The classical translation, which is not a very good one. So moral shame and moral dread. But you could call it healthy shame or healthy fear or just a sense of conscience. That's a more positive way of expressing moral shame. if our conscience, conscience, if we're sensitive to it and it's developed, then when we do something that's unskillful or causes harm, there is a feeling of shame, you know, or realizing that wasn't good. And so there's a wise remorse in that.

1:00:15And also the other is like fear of wrongdoing. So again, the words sound a little maybe harsh, but actually it's just that sense of wise reflection that, oh yeah, if I do this, it's going to cause harm to myself or others. So there's an inner, we could say fear or reluctance or restraint from doing that action. and the Buddha called these two the guardians of the world. Because if people really lived with hiri otapa, we would be very sensitive to times when we do make mistakes, when we do things that are not wise or skillful. So instead of being blind to that and just going ahead out of these habit patterns, we really see the consequences of it.

1:01:08And sometimes there's a process of making amends, if it's possible, but at least recognizing it is, and then it becomes part of a restraint in the future. Oh, I won't do that again. So all of that comes from a wise reflection. You may have said this and I missed it, but is any part of Hiri, Otapa, worrying about what wise people might think? Yes, it is. That is one of the descriptions. I can't remember which of those two it's linked to, whether it's the wise shame or the wise fear of wrongdoing. It's probably the second. Reflecting on what the wise may think of what we've done. So once I was in a monastery in Burma, there was just this one line.

1:02:01I was on the wall someplace. And it wasn't just exactly, but in a way it summarizes it. in a really simple way. It said, avoid doing what you will later regret. And I thought, that's such a simple expression. If one can imagine regretting something that one has done, why do it? But to have that in mind before we act. And we've all had experiences. is just part of our human life. We've made mistakes, you know, and we have done things that were wrong, harmful, whatever. But there's a learning from that if we're open to seeing it. So then we really learn. It's almost part of the process of purification of mind, purification of our heart.

1:02:57It's by seeing the mistakes. with a kind of wise remorse. Well, that was not good. Yeah, and learning from it. So then there's growth in understanding and growth in ethical behavior. It's always good. Purification can be a tough word, at least for me. But you're not saying we're going to be pure eventually, maybe if we would come up Buddha, but purer than we were six months ago. Yeah, I never used to use the word purification because I had some of the same kind of intuitive reaction just to the word in English and maybe I don't know what associations. But if we just step back from whatever conditioning we have about it, if we think of just we are in a process of purifying our minds from greed, from hatred, from delusion, from all the causes of suffering.

1:03:56and yet it's a whole path but then we can see no this is a good thing why not purify our minds of those forces it's a gradual process yeah i mean maybe a less triggering for some way to say it's just training the heart and the mind yeah i think we have either wisely or inadvertently teed ourselves up for the last phrase that i want to ask you about which is back on theme but also related to this whole shame or remorse or regret thread that we've just kind of might have seemed like a tangent, actually will all come together, I think, with this last phrase, lust cracks the brain. So the story behind that phrase is I was sitting in a retreat with my Burmese teacher, Saida Upandita, who, as I've mentioned at times, is a great meditation master.

1:04:50He was like a fierce Zen master. You know, he's a very demanding teacher and also a very caring one. You know, he really wanted us to understand things. So one time he was giving a Dharma talk in Burmese, it was a translator, and he was going on and on, maybe for 10 minutes, talking in Burmese. And then the translator translated everything he said in these four words, lust cracks the brain which I thought was just a brilliant translation I don't know what was said in Burmese but I think we all know this because when our minds are filled with lust we go crazy first to remember how obsessed the mind can become it just is such a powerful energy in the body, in the mind.

1:05:48It's powerful, powerful force. And it can lead us to do so many things, as we could open any newspaper any day and see the harmful results of lust cracking the brain, where people just, crimes of passion and all the forms that could take. We just can easily start doing really harmful things. How many relationships have broken up because lust cracking the brain of one partner or another and then going off and doing things that are so damaging to the relationship? There are just a million examples of this. So the point of the phrase and the power of it is to remind us, because these feelings, the feelings of lust are certainly going to come up in the course of a lifetime.

1:06:44Happily, I can say that as one gets older, it gets less. So that's the good news about aging. But there's certainly times I remember it's an energy that's coming to us all. So this phrase is just a reminder. when this arises, pay attention. Really try to become mindful of it and not be caught in the obsession of it. And to really watch our actions when this energy is very strong and present. So it doesn't mean never acting on, for example, sexual desire, which is just part of the human condition, but is it within bounds, in the bounds of morality, of ethics, of non-harming, or not? Has that desire cracked our brain enough that we don't care about those boundaries anymore?

1:07:45So it's just a reminder to take care because it is such a powerful energy, and we want to acknowledge that. And in this case, was lust only about sexual desire or just strong greed for or desire for anything. I don't know what he said in Burmese. So we could certainly apply it to anything. Yeah. But I think it's most vivid in sexual desire. We're all familiar with that becoming at times a really powerful force. But people have lust for a lot of different things. We lust for food. Yeah. Power. Power. Yeah. Fame. Money. Yeah. Yeah, all of those things. So I think it applies across the board. We've just had a great conversation about what you might call desire, lust, greed, wanting within a Buddhist framework and how to work with these energies more skillfully.

1:08:45Just before we close here, any closing thoughts from you? I just want to add something to one of the topics we touched just before when we were talking about wise remorse. And so I just like to highlight the difference between guilt and remorse, because as I said, we all do things at different times that have been unskillful, you know, and cause suffering that we feel guilty about. So I had this experience once again on retreat and I was remembering something and now I I don't even remember what it was about, but I remember having just real attacks of guilt for having done whatever it was. And guilt is a terrible feeling.

1:09:33It's a self-lacerating feeling with a huge amount of self-judgment. And so I was experiencing that. And at a certain point, I just got interested. What is going on here? Why am I so hooked by this feeling? Or what's sustaining it? I was just trying to understand. And then at a certain point, I realized that guilt was a trick of the ego. Because in guilt, there is a lot of selfing in a negative way. I'm so bad. I'm this terrible person. How could I have done this? I, I, I, I. All negative. So when I saw that, when I reframed guilt as a trick of the ego, then in my mind, I used this other phrase, which we've talked about in earlier episodes, Mara, I see you.

1:10:35Yeah. And that's, I think I had mentioned this, I added to it, wagging the finger at Mara. So I did that with the guilt. That's where that first came. Oh, Mara, I see you. And then I realized there was a better alternative to guilt because guilt was an unskillful response to something that we actually did. And that's what generally fuels it because it's not free-floating guilt, although there are conditions like that as well. But when it's in response to an actual action, we justify the guilt to ourselves because oh yeah really did do something not that great but when i saw it as a trick of the ego i realized a much more helpful mind state is something i called wise remorse and that involves the acknowledgement yeah that action was not good cause suffering, cause harm.

1:11:38So we're taking responsibility for our actions, but without that added self-laceration. We just see and we learn from it. As I said a little earlier, maybe make amends for what we did if we can. But in that wise remorse, there's kind of a built-in understanding, a wisdom of impermanence, that all these things arise and pass away. and there's also in some subtle way an element of self-forgiveness in that feeling of wise remorse we're no longer caught in that ego trap of i'm so bad or i'm such a bad person so it's very freeing yeah oddly there's less self and self-forgiveness than there is in self laceration.

1:12:31And by the way, more room in the forgiveness part to make amends and think about the other people you may have harmed as opposed to being stuck in your story. Yeah. I think that was a very useful discernment that really helped me a lot. Yeah, it's helped me. Well, this was great. Thank you. You're welcome.

1:13:00Thanks again to Joseph. Always awesome to talk to him. Don't forget to check out my meditation app over at danharris.com. Joseph guides lots of meditations over there, including an on-ramp to Buddhist meditation, an excellent series of meditations designed to like ease into the deep end of Buddhist meditation practice. and you can do these practices, whether you're a rank amateur or an experienced practitioner. If you head on over to danharris.com, you can sign up for the app. There's a free 14-day trial if you want to try before you buy. And of course, if you sign up, you'll be included in Sharon Salzberg's eight-part Sunday evening video extravaganza where she's going to walk us through the eightfold path.

1:13:41Lots of good stuff happening on the app. Danharris.com, join the party. Thank you very much to all the people who work so incredibly hard to make this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasily. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Kashmir is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.

1:14:15Thank you.