Rethinking Success | Mia Birdsong

30:12And I'm like, I don't want to just keep a system because it's really big and seems hard to get rid of if it's actually going to end up getting rid of us. I appreciate you letting me take you on this. I don't know if it's a tangent, but just down this road. It's not a tangent. I feel like this is so fundamental to the work. Because again, we were talking about community and the ways in which the system we live in makes it challenging, right? They're not the conditions for us to connect with each other. I mean, if only because we don't have enough fucking time to do it, right? If you're at work 40 hours, which we say is full-time, but many of us, of course, work over full-time, whatever that is.

30:55You think about sleep, gas sleep, and then all the things you need to do to run an adult life, whether it's raising children or caretaking for other people, paying your bills, grocery shopping, all the stuff. You don't actually have a lot of time to be in relationship with people and relationships require time. So it is right in here. Like it feels like it is fundamental to what we're talking about. Yeah, I think for this show, we don't often talk about. Sometimes we do. It's not verboten by any stretch, but it's where we usually dwell in the space of like how an individual can improve their own lives.

31:40and the lives of the people around them. And so I think it's totally fascinating. And I'm glad we discussed it. And I want to also just get back to some of the things we were talking about earlier, but like how your life looks differently, things you've implemented into your life in order to get this community that you so convincingly argue we need in order to thrive. And I believe one of the things you've done in order to sort of get this community going in your life is to involve other people in raising your children. Absolutely. Neither of my husband or I grew up in families where our parents were the only people raising us.

32:19I was raised by my mom. My father was absolutely a part of my life, but I lived with my mother full time. And she, as a single working person, figured out fairly early on that that was like not a thing you do by yourself. And she had friends who were basically my aunties and helped raise me. And then I think there was also just that my kind of school community of folks, my friends and I helped raise each other. My friend's parents helped raise me. So that was a context that I grew up in where there was just like lots of caring adults around me, supporting me in whatever it was I was doing. And then my husband grew up in a kind of like the opposite kind of context where he lived with his parents.

33:09He's one of seven and they lived in a commune sounds too culty, but like a very tight knit rural community. So there were just groups of kids run around all the time. There were lots and lots and lots of adults who were doing caretaking of children, helping to raise kids. I am now part of that community. So, there are all these folks who my husband and his siblings grew up with who are people that my children have now grown up with. So, we both grew up in that context. And part of what we were talking about earlier is why I wrote the book that I wrote. And what I saw is that for us, right, like, we live in a city, we own our own home, we both at the time were essentially running our own businesses.

34:03And there was a way in which it was super easy to kind of isolate and feel like everything that needed to happen for our children was going to be up to us. And there was a point after my son was born when I was just like, this is some bullshit. Like at the very least, I need to have some dates with my husband. And I was thinking about how occasionally we would like pay for a babysitter and go out to eat. And I was like, that's, you know, I like a fancy cocktail. Like that becomes very expensive. So I thought, you know, there are other families who are struggling with the same thing. And I talked to two other families that my daughter, the kids all went to school together.

34:47And we started this thing called Kid Fun. And that was our marketing for the kids. We didn't call it date night. And every other Saturday for like four hours, all the kids would go to one family's house. And then the other two couples could go do whatever, go have dates. Sometimes for us, that meant we could go and have sex when it was light out still in our house. We would stay home and get takeout, have sex, and watch a movie. So there was certainly the intended result was that I got to spend this time with my husband where we were not caretaking. We were not talking about logistics. We could just hang out and enjoy each other's company.

35:33But there ended up being all of these other benefits that thrilled me. and part of it was about the kids and their relationships with each other and that they you know had this regular time when they would spend time together in each other's homes they got to be in different households and adapt to like whatever the rules in that household are and that I feel like is just such a good skill for people to have right I also found that when we had the kids in our house like they were entertaining themselves they were like you know playing, they were watching whatever. And I still got to have kitchen date with my husband, we would be in the kitchen, the kids would be eating pizza, we'd take our pizza and a glass of wine and like be in the kitchen and the kids would be in the living room.

36:14So we still got to like spend time with each other, which was amazing. And then the other thing was about the relationships that the kids had with the adults who weren't their parents. And the ways in which I myself got close to children who were not my children, the ways in which I saw my kids develop relationships with adults who were not their parents, and the love and care that those relationships provided for them was just really beautiful. And that was just like, it was so easy to structure and put together. Everybody was excited about it. You know, we stopped doing it when our kids could start being at home by themselves.

36:54But I think during those early years when you're just kind of consumed with the relentlessness of taking care of little people who can't make their own dinner or obviously be trusted to be home by themselves, it was such a relief for us, but also there were all these other benefits that ended up happening, which was amazing. Coming up, Mia Birdsong talks about some practical tips for building community in your own life, mutuality versus reciprocity, and some tips on working with an inevitable part of interacting with other people, resentment and rejection.

37:42When you're in community with others, like in the example you just gave with other families, how important is like equivalence of help like does everybody have to be giving and taking the same amount i mean in this context we did because we just kind of rotated but i think of other contexts where again if there are enough people that it's not about reciprocation right it's about mutuality. And for me, that distinction is reciprocation is, I do this thing for you that's worth this amount of time or money, or there's some like calculation that happens. And then with the understanding that at some point, you will do that thing for me, right, or something equivalent for me.

38:28Whereas mutuality feels much more, it's less about a one on one relationship, it feels like it's about a group. And it is that everybody contributes, like to their capability, And that we understand that the folks who, you know, in the moment or consistently can contribute less, that them getting what they need benefits us, right? So it's not like we're all doing more to take care of this person and it's completely altruistic, but it's actually this understanding that our own well-being is dependent on the well-being of the people in our community and that all of us contribute in the ways that we can.

39:16It's looking at the complexity of contribution as well, right? Like I had a friend who had to move recently and I had my husband come over because I was like, he'll just kind of like come and like he's my farmhand at home, right? If I need like bales of hay or whatever moved. And it's not because he's actually stronger than me. It's because my contribution tends to be more of the like management organizing of things, right? Like I don't clean the house. He does. I want the bales of hay moved. like he'll do that for me. So I had him come over to help move stuff with us. And to be clear, this was my Pilates instructor.

39:57There were a whole lot of very strong people there, but I was like, he should come and bring some energy that is like, he will just do whatever we tell him to do, as opposed to being trying to manage it. Cause there were a lot of us in the management role and he did it not because he don't take Pilates with her, but he knows that her well-being benefits me, right? And she is part of our community. And there was a way in which I feel like that knowing, right, that like we do things for somebody in our community because we know that they deserve whatever that is. And we recognize that they have a role in our community that is facilitated, right, by our supporting them.

40:38I mean, I keep going back to the word alchemy because it feels very like somebody could probably do the math, but you don't need to, because there's a kind of like pragmatic faith that you have to have in that context that I find is in and of itself a nourishing thing, right? When I can show up for people that I love, when it is me giving freely of my time, energy, commitment, whatever, there's a way in which I am nourished by that, right? That I'm nourished by supporting other people. I like that pragmatic faith. While we're on a practical tip here, one of the things you write about is rejection.

41:20I'm going to read you back to you. You say when people say no, it's information about them, not rejection, not about you. This realization helps us process, helps us distinguish between what's ours to deal with and what is somebody else's. Yes. I mean, that. Totally. What's your question? I don't know. I mean, I think that we, and this is not to say like, if you take something, if it feels hurtful, that you shouldn't feel hurt, like feel hurt, but understand that there's something about receiving other people's boundary, right? That I have tried to find gratitude in. and like one of the things i often say if i ask a friend for something or to do something for me right and they say no because they're busy or don't have the capacity for it whatever is i say thank you because i don't want my folks to extend themselves in ways that are crossing their own boundaries, right?

42:25That are beyond what is a like healthy limitation for them. And rarely am I in a position where there's only one person, right? Who can do a thing for me or where the thing is life or death. And if it is life or death, people will say yes. And so when I receive the no, right? It's not about rejection of me, right? It is about them caring for themselves. And since I care about them, and I want them to be well, I feel like I want to receive their no with some gratitude and some thanks. And then the other thing I think is that people often have a hard time saying no. So saying thank you, when people say no, relieves some of that social pressure that we often feel to say yes.

43:11And I want my folks to know that like, I care about them. And I want them to feel like they can say no to me when they can't give freely of whatever is that I'm asking for. What do you do if you've got a person who's consistently saying no and also asking for a lot? I mean, I don't have that, but I think that what I would do is have a conversation. So one of the things my therapist said to me and my husband very early when we were in couples therapy with her is she said, resentment is information for you that a boundary has been crossed. and I was so mad about that because I was like isn't resentment when I get to be like self-righteous about somebody else like fucking up or not doing enough so if I'm asking something of somebody and they're consistently saying no and I'm doing a lot for them and I'm feeling resentful that's information for me that I maybe shouldn't be providing as much in that relationship and part of it depends on what it is, right?

44:19Like if it's somebody who like can't do that, like I'm not gonna, like there's a match that you have to have to kind of like have with what it is you're asking for and somebody's capacity. And if I'm consistently asking them for something they don't have the capacity for, that means I need to understand more about what their capacity is. But I feel like you're asking for a question about contexts in which people often, like they're in relationships with people who are a little selfish, right? And are often asking for things, but not giving. And then I'm like, yeah. So for me, a balanced relationship, right?

44:53Is I don't want to be giving things to people who are selfish and are not willing to give of themselves. So for me, the answer would be, I mean, I'd want to have the conversation, but it's also like, then I need to provide less, right? I need to, I'm no longer giving freely if I'm feeling resentful. So I need to set my own boundary around what it is I'm going to do for that person. Now there, I I definitely have people in my life for whom I do more for them than they do for me. And I'm fine with it. It doesn't feel it like is an easy thing for me to do. And there's nothing I actually want from them.

45:24And that feels fine to me. And again, it's because I'm not thinking that the relationship needs to be reciprocal, that there needs to be balance, because human beings aren't that way, right? We all have different capacities and abilities, and people got shit going on in their lives, right? So if I'm not feeling resentful, then that's fine. But if I am, then I need to like reassess what's going on in that relationship for me. Yeah, that makes sense. I think I have friends where it's not strictly equal, but it doesn't really matter. I have so much going for me in terms of luck vis-a-vis, you know, like the womb I came out of and all the opportunities that have been showered down upon me in my life.

46:06And so other people may not have that, but I want them in my life. And so if it's not entirely a one-way street, but most of the traffic is going in one direction, that's fine. It's worth it. But okay. So I know you get this question a lot and I know you didn't write a how-to book, but I can imagine there are a lot of people listening saying, oh, well, we hear in every fucking TED talk that we need to have social connection in order to be happy. And you, Dan Harris are telling us this all the time on this show. So what do we do about it? I'm an introvert, or I don't know that many people. I just moved to a new city.

46:42What are the practical steps I could take? So the first thing that, yes, I get asked this question all the time, and I always say, I don't know. But this is the question, this is the thing I feel like we need to ask ourselves, right? There's some internal questioning that I feel like I need to do about what kind of connection I'm looking for and why. Like, I really want to understand what is the space in myself that I have for relationship? What are the things that I need from relationship? And like, what kinds of relationships can I get that from? So one of the things that just came up for me is I'm thinking about like, you know, Mia in her 20s was often looking for romantic relationships to fill some hole in myself.

47:33And that is not a hole that's ever going to be filled by a romantic relationship. And at some point, I got to a place where I realized that and I got to take care of myself around that thing. And it allowed for romantic relationships that function in a very different way and that were not problematic for me. So I think knowing are these things that I need to get from myself or these things that I need to get from other people is really important. And then I think that there's a, I mean, you kind of brought up a bunch of different scenarios, right? So when I think about the introvert, I think about how many introverts know an extrovert and can like pair up with that person.

48:12And like a lot of this requires that we tell on ourselves, right? That we actually say to the people in our lives, this is a thing that I feel like I need to work on. This is something I want more of in my life. Can we talk about how to do that with each other? Or can we talk about how to do that in our community? Or can you tell me how you did that here right in this particular context? So that's one thing is just like, you know, I mean, one of the things people often talk about is getting to know their neighbors. And I'm like, there's no magic, like skill, you need to get to know your neighbors.

48:44I've told people to like, especially if they're introverts. I'm like, pair up with the one extroverted neighbor you know, or another introverted neighbor so y 'all can just support each other. When I get a new neighbor to my neighborhood, we have a bakery that's real close. So I buy some cupcakes or whatever. I write a note and I welcome them to the neighborhood. I give them my cell phone number and my husband's cell phone number and I leave it on their doorstep. And inevitably I get a text that day saying, thank you. And then if there's a relationship to build beyond, can you just pick up a package for me?

49:18That's when that starts. And my on my neighborhood, like we have there's a group text with a handful of us, who we watch each other's animals. I never worry if I'm like out of lemons or onions or soy sauce or whatever, I know somebody else is gonna have it. And I can, you know, get it, we make the kids do the, like running across the street to get whatever the thing is, and that like, that's like the beginning of those relationships, right? And then, you know, you don't need to be best friends with your neighbors, but y 'all should definitely know your neighbors. I feel like that's a piece of advice that I will, I'll like die on that hill.

49:50You should know who your neighbors are. The other thing I think is, especially for folks who are like, you know, have just moved is that you don't, we don't build these relationships in a day, right? Relationships take time to build. You have to find your people. It is certainly more challenging when you're not a child in school or in college anymore to build those kinds of relationships. Like part of what we assume is going to happen in the context of school is that we're going to meet people who we're going to be friends with. Sometimes you meet those people in your workplace, and that's great if that happens.

50:24And sometimes it just takes time and you have to be out in the world. And it has been really hard for folks to be out in the world for the last several years because out in the world has been a dangerous place. But there's just some like spaciousness we need to give ourselves as we begin to find the places where our people are going to be. And then I do think there is this process of like actually having conversations with people who are already in relationship about like what kind of relationship you want and to see if they want something that can be more close or reliable or like, you know, kind of take it to whatever the next level would be in terms of that friendship or relationship.

51:04You see what you just did there, which is you said, I don't know when I asked you a question about how do we do this thing? And then you listed a bunch of actual actionable tips. Yes. So I have lots of there are lots and lots of things. I think that often when people ask the question of how they're looking for an answer. Right. And part of it is that I think that there is this way in which we actually need to ask ourselves and remind ourselves that being in relationship is who we are. And we actually know how to do it. We just have to give ourselves permission to do it because it can feel really fucking awkward.

51:43We can feel like we're out of practice. And again, I feel like that is because of the system that we live inside of, right, that doesn't encourage connection. It encourages us to get the things we need through transaction, right? One of the hallmarks of American success is that you've hoarded enough resources so that you can get everything you need through transaction and you don't actually need to like rely on anybody else because you can't trust other people to show up for you. So this is like a reclaiming of what it means to be a person. And many of us are out of practice with that, right? We feel like if we ask somebody for help, then we owe them.

52:21right because we think of help as something that you usually pay for or get or as some kind of like reciprocal transactional thing and this is something that is much more organic this is something that is much more human and we have a lot of kind of detritus to remove from our assumptions about who we are assumptions about what other who other people are and what we all want in order to return to this thing that we actually do know how to do, which is build and be in relationship with each other. Coming up, Mia talks about the etymological connection between the words friendship and freedom and the transformative power of asking for help.

53:16I've committed a bit of journalistic malpractice, which is I'm only asking you now about a thing you often say that I like so much. In fact, was the reason why I wanted to have you on, because I'd heard you say this elsewhere. You talk about the etymological connection between friendship and freedom. Can you lay that on us, please? This is like one of my favorite things, and partly because this research that I came across is actually what I'm doing now. So, when I was doing research for my book, I came across in a couple of different places, actually. So, this information about freedom that just like resonated with me, I had never heard before, and I just like, I could not let go of it.

54:02So one is that the etymological root of the word friendship and the word freedom is a Sanskrit word that means beloved. And just that in and of itself, I was like, oh, friendship and freedom, they used to like sit together, right? They like came from the same womb. And I was just like, I don't know how to think about that. But yes, like my spirit just said yes to that information. And then the other piece was that pre-1500s, right, in a like very different Western context from the one we have right now, someone who was enslaved was understood as being unfree, partly because they were in bondage, but also because they had been separated from their people.

54:44So that to be free was to be in connected community. and again this like totally resonated with me and it just made sense to me because of what I know about human biology and who we are as people right like we be in the tribe right like that's just like our state of being is with the collective and I went down like three different rabbit holes in my mind when I read these pieces of information so the first piece was it recast for me my understanding of Black people's experience in America. And if we think about your people as not just being, you know, the human beings that you like are in proximity to, but your ancestors, the land that you're on, your relationships with other living things, right?

55:37So that when Black folks were kidnapped and trafficked from African continent across the ocean, we were obviously being separated deeply from our people. And then if you look at the way that slavery was practiced in America, there was this intrinsic piece of it that was about the constant threat of being sold away from your people. And then obviously for many people, the experience of being sold away from your people. If you look at the post-Reconstruction white supremacist terrorism in the South that created a refugee crisis that we call the Great Migration, right? Again, Black folks being driven away from land and family.

56:21Through to the prison industrial complex, to child protective services, there's been this American project of trying to make Black people unfree by separating us from each other. And we see this too with like, like indigenous folks and boarding schools with practices at the US border with Mexico, people being separated from each other as a way of making them unfree. And then of course, anytime you're perpetrating any kind of oppression on people, there's always the resistance to it, right? So Black folks jumping overboard slave ships, being like, I'm gonna get back to my people one way or another.

56:58People obviously rebelling, running away from, resisting being away from their folks on the plantation. After emancipation, there were thousands of advertisements placed by Black folks who were trying to find loved ones who they hadn't seen in decades. They're archived. You can find them online. They're beautiful and utterly heartbreaking. And then I think about a lot of the resistance movements that exist being about, like, how are we making sure that we can be with each other? And then like, I can't tell you how many Black folks I know who found out like when they were grownups that, you know, their Uncle Bobby is not actually their father's brother, but is their father's like best friend from, you know, grade school.

57:43So there's this way in which we also just like make family with each other. So there was that rabbit hole of just like understanding this American project to try to make Black people unfree and our resistance to that kind of unfreedom. The other rabbit hole I went down was thinking about what I had learned and what kind of gets promoted as freedom in America. And that it is deeply about independence. It is about, again, like getting enough resources so that you can get everything you need through transaction and not relationship. A hallmark of American freedom is that you can do whatever the fuck you want and not be responsible for or accountable to anybody.

58:32And as I thought about that, I was like, oh, that's like actually the opposite of freedom. We've been told there's been this like hundreds year grift that America has been pulling on all of us telling us that freedom is a thing that's actually the opposite of freedom. And then I thought about what would this country be like if we believed that to be free was to be in connected community? What would our economy look like? What would our school system look like? What would our healthcare system look like? What would our neighborhoods be like? How would we think about designing cities? cities? How would it change the way that we, what we expect from each other and what we expect from, you know, government or other institutions?

59:20And I was like, well, that's the world I want to live in. I want that one, the one where we believe, as Fannie Lou Hamer said, right? Nobody's free unless everybody's free. Where we recognize, right, that like, my well-being actually is dependent on the well-being of my neighbors. And that when I am, you know, in the example I gave of that cantilevered, everybody's sitting on each other's laps thing, right? When I hold you, everybody else is holding me. That's the world that I want to live in. Last question for me. You say freedom is a practice. What does that mean? So if being free is about being in connected community, right?

1:00:05That's not a thing that you just step into and then it's there. It actually is a thing that we need to practice. It is a thing we need to work on both kind of our own, like noticing the places that we have where we don't believe it, either because we don't trust that we can have it or something in us is resisting it. You know, like one of the things that I absolutely struggle with is asking for help, right? Is like not kind of doing whatever it is myself. I feel like our audience is absolutely familiar with this. But if I believe that freedom is a collective practice, then my asking for help, right, my well-being is something that the people who love me actually are invested in.

1:00:59And people want to help me because part of the reason we don't ask for help is because we believe that it makes us weak. But the other thing is that we don't think people will actually help us. I would go so far as to say it's a kind of self-hatred to be independent. So I feel like I need to push myself to ask for help when I feel myself being resistant to it because I'm uncomfortable with it. In the summer of 2021, I was diagnosed with colon cancer. and I remember making an explicit decision to not be a strong person through it to not be like I'm a kick cancer's ass like I'm gonna do you know all of that to like perform a kind of you know, strong black woman.

1:01:52And I wrote emails to, well, first there was like a group of folks who like anointed themselves, my care squad. And I wrote an email to my community. And I was like, this is what's happening. I want all of you to help me. There are things that only I can do, right nobody else can go through chemo for me nobody else can go through surgery and recover nobody else can hydrate me like there are things that i have to do myself but i was like everything else that can be done by another person i'm asking you all to do that and my community showed up in the most gorgeous, beautiful, powerful way. And I will also say, because we were talking about the conditions that allow us to be in community earlier, this was this period of the pandemic, which for my folks, things had slowed down a lot, right?

1:02:56People were not working as much. There was a lot of spaciousness. And I know that folks would have shown up for me before, and they would show up for me now. But I think that there was a way in which the conditions that we were existing in allowed for a level of joy and creativity in the way that people showed up for me. So like me and my family being fed, that was a given. That was like the low bar. There were spreadsheets. There was a walk crew of folks who would come to my house and make sure I I was going for walks. There was an errand crew that like if I needed anything, the captain of the errand crew would like text everybody and somebody would go get whatever it was.

1:03:39When I was in the hospital getting part of my colon removed, there was a group of people on the lawn of the hospital singing for me. my folks created a joy fund for me that was like a pot of money for me to just spend on something that brought me joy i bought art supplies because i could be in bed and do art and that asking for help that decision transformed certainly my experience of going through surgery and chemotherapy. And just to be clear, I'm like totally fine now. It supported my family, right? Because it's COVID and I have no immune system. No one can come in our house, right? So my husband's doing a lot of the caretaking inside, but there was a whole bunch of people outside making sure that whatever we needed for that care to happen was available.

1:04:39but the thing that I kept hearing over and over again was how beautiful and nurturing it was for the people who were able to help me to be in the in a community of folks who were supporting me right like it did something for them and I hope that this is a lesson that I never forget because one it was I mean it was uncomfortable sometimes to be asking right and to know that like, I'm not, I'm just sitting here being sick and feeling like shit. Like I'm not doing anything for anybody. So it was uncomfortable, but I could see, and people told me over and over again, how much beauty and joy it brought them to be able to support me in that way, but also to be doing it with this group of people, right?

1:05:25There were hundreds of people involved and they didn't all know each other, but there was a way in which they could see like how other people were supporting me. It felt like people felt like they were alive. People felt, and especially in this moment when we were going through this pandemic, right? It brought people a sense of purpose and capacity and a belief that we can do these things for each other. It's a great story, and I'm glad you're as healthy as you look. Thank you. And I really agree with you about the thing we often overlook, that giving people a chance to be decent, to be helpful, to be generous, actually is a kind of a gift.

1:06:07And that's a great point that you make. I'm really grateful to you for coming on this show. Before I let you go, could you please shamelessly plug your book, your new organization, anything else you want to plug, your favorite TV show, whatever it is? Someday I will have a TV show. So the book is called How We Show Up, Reclaiming Friendship, Family, and Community, or Family, Friendship, and Community. I don't remember, but How We Show Up. And my organization is called Next River. It's an institute for practicing the future. We are doing this big project right now called Freedom's Revival, which has been started.

1:06:44What we've done so far is the research on the kind of conditions that are necessary for collective freedom. in mid to late September, we'll be releasing the research that we've put together. It'll be on our website, which is nextriver.org. I think it'll be really amazing to read. That's what I got so far. Awesome. Keep up the good work. And thank you again for coming on the show, Mia Burtz. Thank you for having me.

1:07:16Thanks again to Mia Burtz. Awesome to talk to her. Don't forget to go sign up at danharris.com if you want to participate in our free New Year's Meditation Challenge, which will be running from January 5th through the 11th. Joseph Goldstein will be our teacher. He has crafted an amazing series of seven guided meditations that really are a kind of master class and on-ramp to Buddhist meditation. Great for beginners. Great for people who've been meditating for a long time. If you join us, I'll be doing the challenge right alongside you. I'll be doing a bunch of live sessions to complement the challenge video sessions where you can come meditate a little bit more with me and then ask me some questions.

1:07:57It's going to be amazing. And it will be run through our new 10 % app, which I can't believe I get to say. I can't believe I get to have an app again. If you want to sign up for the challenge and for the app, go to danharris.com. The challenge is totally free. And there's also a free 30-day trial for the app if you want to try it before you buy it. Yeah, super excited about this. finally thank you to everybody who worked so hard on this show our producers are tara anderson and eleanor vasili our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at pod people lauren smith is our managing producer marissa schneiderman is our senior producer dj cashmere is our executive producer and nick thorburn of the band islands wrote our theme