Self-Help Without Other People Is Just Selfish — and Here's the Science to Prove It | Dan Harris

28:59The way, and I'm responsible for this to a certain extent, the way meditation is often talked about is a solo pursuit and an internal exercise. But the point isn't to, as Joseph's close friend and collaborator Sharon Salzberg often says, the point is not to become a better meditator, it's to become a better person. And I don't think that is emphasized enough. And again, I take responsibility for that. I think of... That's actually the reason why I was so happy that you said yes. Because I see what you've just said, which is that by working on ourselves, that's actually why in The Joy of Connections, when Dr.

29:46Ruth, we were putting together the book, there are five components. And self came first. Yes. Self, working on yourself, being kind of more aware of your own actions and your behaviors. Self is first. It helps set you up for deepening and nurturing and making better all the connections. Yes. But self-help without thinking about other people is just selfish. And I think, and it's also just stupid because we, if you think about evolution, we evolve to need other people. Right now, we're in a culture that militates against social connection at every turn through individualism and, of course, through technology.

30:32It is not a coincidence, in my opinion, that we are seeing unprecedented levels of anxiety, depression, suicide addiction, and loneliness. So I'm all for self-help or self-care, but the point is to have more bandwidth to relate to other people more successfully, not in a finger-waggy, you-should-be-a-good-person way, but because your relationships will dictate your happiness. This is an upward spiral that is available to all of us. just to step back, I think most of us live in a downward spiral much of the time. We are kicking our own asses, and that impacts our relationships. Because relationships are the most important variable in human flourishing, we feel even worse.

31:21Our relationships get even worse, and my friend of mine calls this the toilet vortex. There is this upward spiral where you take care of your own mind. That improves your relationships. Your inner weather gets even bombier, your relationships improve even more, and up you go. And I'm not saying you will, and I certainly am not always on the upward spiral. I have my bad days. But you want to be upward spiral ready. And I actually think you can start on either side. Self, taking care of your own mind is a great way to get access to the upward spiral. But you can also just start by being kind and generous with other people, that will make you feel good.

32:09Now, it's a tricky balance because if you focus too much on yourself, your relationships will suffer. If you focus too much on other people, you may forget yourself. The Tibetan Buddhists call that idiot compassion. So this is an art. This is an art and a science actually kind of at the same time. I've been very open about the fact that I've come by my specific money neuroses, honestly. So I've found some tools that have really helped me reorient to my personal finances in a healthier and sane way. So I'm passing on better lessons to my own son. And one tool that is really helpful is something called Monarch, which does many, many things.

32:50But one of the things that it does that I really like is put all of your financial information in one place. So if I'm spiraling for one reason or another, I can just look at this dashboard and get a clear sense of what's going on. And very often it just calms my nervous system. Most apps only tell you what you've spent. Monarch helps you set goals, map out big purchases and see if you're already on track before it's too late to adjust. You can ask Monarch's AI assistant anything about your finances, like how much did I spend on travel last summer? Or can I afford this vacation without touching my savings?

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34:22Plus, our in-store designers will help you bring it all together with free one-on-one design support for any project on any budget. Yep, we said free. Oh, and did we mention the cafe? So what are you waiting for? Come see all that's in store. Visit the Wayfair store today at Edens Plaza and Wilmette. Wayfair, every style, every home. I think what I find so powerful is that it puts you instantly, this compassion, in community. Yes. And we know, quoting other research, that when you say hello to the person making your coffee, or when you pick up your dry cleaning, and you take your AirPods out, and you have a moment of humanity, it helps you feel in place that you belong to something larger than yourself this compassion practice yes i was so for so much of my life just so self-centered and just kind of in a in my own little rut and groove and and pursuing my own agenda and like there's just there's a time and place for all that i'm not trying to um be overly self-critical but i found that through doing high doses of this practice over the years has really just kind of like, my factory settings are at frosty New Englander.

35:45And it's just warmed me up. And you're absolutely right. There's a ton of data that shows that these so-called micro interactions are a potent source of happiness. And like when you ignore the possibility of just these tiny little moments of interaction with the people you are encountering all day long, you're kind of like, metaphorically speaking, leaving money on the table, happiness-wise. And, you know, I think just being on the lookout for that is a really powerful little practice. And this underlying practice of meta can really prime you to do it. So when you blow past your doorman, you don't say hello.

36:28Yes. When you don't engage at all, perhaps with your Uber driver, does the opening up of that opportunity make you experience your world does it change your body does it change how you relate to yourself does it make you happier does it make you 10 percent happier how does it make you feel inside and then how does it all kind of work together in this wonderful stew that you're um telling us that we should embrace it i'll just tell you for me it's

37:01just a much happier way to live. I'll give you a story. Because I have panic disorder, I am often kind of at other people's mercy, or I need help. And I don't love being in that position. But having a more open, friendly attitude has allowed me to get some support in moments when I need it. And a little story on this tip, I was, I sometimes record my podcast at a studio in New York City. Mostly I record from home. And one day I was at the studio, it was my first time at this particular studio, and I had all my luggage with me. And I was, I walked in the building and I looked at the elevator and it was a very small elevator.

37:50And I just, it was, my mind was like, this is not today. Like, I can't do this today. And I was kind of just staring at the elevator forlornly. And I turned to the security guard and said, can I walk? And he was like, it's 16 flights. And I said, can I walk? Can you just, would you take this up to the 16th floor? And he got up, put his jacket on and said, I'm going to ride with you. I'm going to hold your and we rode to the 16th floor. His name is Barry, B-A-R-I. He's an immigrant from East Africa. And it worked. And I ride the elevator with him every time I go. And like that kind of openness has been a huge boon for me personally.

38:40I love that. Thank you for sharing that story. I want to switch gears just for a moment before I take these questions. One part of your work that I really do find to be so impactful is, and you hit on it a little bit, about the stories that we tell ourselves. You famously have said, you know, the voice in your head is an asshole. But here are some things that I think that people ruminate over. I will never find love. Everyone's career is awesome. I'll never catch up. I'm too fat. I'm too short. I'm too tall. I'm too ugly. I'm not enough. We all have that gnawing at us. And how do we stop the asshole voice in our heads?

39:34How does this practice that you're talking about nip that in the bud so you can then reorient your thinking and invest in your relationships that we were just talking about? I don't believe in silver bullets, but I think there are several modalities that you can bring to bear here. One is mindfulness, where you just learn to spot that this is happening and not take it so seriously. But this is a slow process. Second, warming up your inner atmosphere through practices like metta can also help change how you relate to yourself. But I think the shortcut, the most powerful practice, is something called self-compassion.

40:15It was invented by a woman named Kristen Neff, who's a psychological researcher at the University of Texas. I believe she should be considered a world historic figure for not only naming this inner capacity, but also developing practices that help you build it and then studying the impact of these practices. And the results are incredible. So if you're in these, I'm unlovable, I don't like the way I look in the mirror, my career is shit. If you're in this kind of toilet vortex, she has this little practice that you don't need to sit on a cushion to do. You can do it right there in the moment. One is just notice it's happening.

40:57Not hard to do. Just notice. All right. Yeah, I'm kicking my own ass. Two, and you can skip one and two. The third step is the most important. Two is just to bring to mind, like, this is normal. There's a lie we tell ourselves when we're in self-flagellation mode, which is I'm the only one with this problem. But mathematically, when you just consider it, millions of other people are dealing with whatever you're dealing with right now. The third step is just to talk to yourself the way you would talk to a good friend. we all have this capacity to be great friends great mentors great parents great uncles and aunts when somebody we love is having problems we know how to talk to them you and this is incredibly good news like you can channel that capacity and direct it towards yourself and there's a ton of research to show that it really works two things that the research shows will supercharge it.

41:59One, and I hate to say this, putting your hand on your heart, which is cheesy as fuck, will actually help. So I don't like to have anybody see me doing it. But when I'm about to get on a plane, it's like, bro, you're good. You're fine. This is not a life or death situation. you're good the other thing that really helps and i you just heard me do it although i didn't name it is talking to yourself with the third person in the third person so this is called distance self-talk so using your own name or bro dude whatever sweetie um i i don't do you sweetie do whatever works for you that this has been shown to really help the the words land so again there's no silver bullet these moments suck and there's also a great question that joseph recommended to you if i remember this correctly is this useful yeah that's really helpful i love that yes this is a little bit more for sort of anxiety when you are in the throes of worrying about something over and over.

43:14There's actually, Joseph was writing about the first time we met, or describing it to you, and I was on a meditation retreat with him, and I was sitting in the back of the hall asking obnoxious questions. One of the obnoxious questions I asked was on the penultimate day of the retreat. He said something to the effect of, you may find your mind ranging off to the things you have to do when you get home. Try to avoid that, or try to be mindful of when it happens and don't go down that road. And I was like, well, dude, if I miss my flight, that has real consequences. Am I not correct to worry about that?

43:47And he said, sure. But on the 85th time, maybe ask yourself the question, is this useful? And that is so helpful for anxiety. These are some questions from the audience. So thank you for writing them so beautifully and legibly, I might add. um how do you cope dan when anxiety feels overwhelming how do i what how do you cope when anxiety feels overwhelming yeah look i made the joke about klonopin earlier but i do think for some of us medication is really important i'm i'm i i want to be has i'm very careful around a medication like klonopin uh which can be viciously addictive so i think you have to be, you want to be talking to your doctor and be very cautious about this type of stuff.

44:39But, you know, there's certain SSRIs or anti-depressants can be really helpful for anxiety as well. So just talking to your doctor about the medical options, I think is a really smart move. As you will see, I'm going to list a bunch of things because I believe with anxiety, you got to pull every possible lever you can. The most powerful lever I pull, and this was reflected in the story I told about what happened on Thursday after my editor was mad at me, is other people. There's a great expression, never worry alone. And so when I have a problem, I talk to my wife, and if she's not available, I talk to Joseph or anybody who will fucking listen.

45:28You know?

45:32don't suffer in silence. Again, this is basic evolution. We got to the top of the food chain, not because we obviously don't have wings or talons or sharp teeth. We got to the top of the food chain because of our ability to cooperate and collaborate. And so use that to your advantage. And notice how when you don't get that stuff, even if you're an introvert, you still need it. You just need less. When you don't get the appropriate amount of social interaction, you wither. Metta meditation, according to the ancient Buddhist texts, was developed as a kind of anti-anxiety medication by the Buddha, who had a bunch of monks practicing in the remote forest, and they were freaked out by the local forest spirits.

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47:44Yeah. And this feels like there are bigger issues. Yeah. How do you want to deal with those issues from a place of anger and overwhelm and bitterness and hatred? Do you think that's the most effective way to deal with them? Go for it. Try it. See how it works. I, in my experience, don't think that's the best way to operate. I think the question is, is carving out this time for this type of practice, is that self-indulgent when the world is facing so many, like, should our time be used differently? I don't think it's mutually exclusive. I think taking five minutes, one minute to take care of your own mind so that you can respond to the many emergencies of the world more effectively is being a good citizen.

48:37Yeah. I think there's, I often say, a geopolitical case for you to get your shit together. And the point of this is not so that you're off in some self-indulgent bliss bubble. The point of this is so that you can engage, what Joseph Campbell says, engage joyfully in the sorrows of the world. That's the point here. And honestly, there's something really strange about what I'm about to say. when you're engaged in compassionate action, it's uplifting. There's something I find really annoying about the response to, and I see it myself, the response to the many, I mean, I'm worried about all the same things you're worried about, AI, the potential demise of our democracy, climate change, war, on and on and on.

49:38But performative misery is not helping anyone. Compassion, getting involved, does two things. One, it absorbs your anxiety because it gives you a sense of agency. And two, it feels good, And that's okay. Miserable people don't tend to change the world for the better. Happy, joyful, engaged, energetic people can make change. So this is the opposite of self-indulgent. I love that. And how young, there's a question about kids. How young is too young? Well, preschoolers can be taught these practices. I, as a parent, recommend caution with your own children. I think it's great if the teachers in the school are teaching it.

50:30But I find that children, you may have noticed, are genetically engineered to reject any suggestion you might have for them. So I never try to get my son to meditate. My son travels with me all over the world to give speeches and stuff like that. He could give my speech. But he, actually he's usually on his iPad while I'm giving my speech. But he, you know, I've never asked him to meditate. I, you know, I believe, what's the... Well, you don't want to be a meditation bully. You don't want to be a bully. Also, there's a great cartoon in The New Yorker, had two women having lunch, it depicted two women having lunch, and one of them says to the other, I've been gluten-free for a week, and I'm already annoying.

51:19that can happen with meditation people. I did it to my wife. For many years, my wife didn't meditate because I was so annoying at the beginning. And so this can really be triply dangerous with kids. So I say, if you want a mindful kid, you got to be a mindful parent. You got to model for them the behavior you want to see. one off-topic question on this it's not about kids um it's on topic of course for this whole discussion but i was really pleasantly surprised with what you've just done on your app you just ended sleep week and we haven't talked about sleep and its impact on your ability to show up in relationships or to do this work that you're talking about why did you do sleep week on your app and why is sleep so important?

52:11People like sleep meditations and we wanted to give it to them. But of course, sleep is, as I often say, is like the apex predator of healthy habits. Like you, nothing works without sleep. So, you know, meditation can be very helpful for sleep, but there are lots of other things you can do and we can get into if you want. I mean, I think a lot of people struggle with sleep. Is there one or two tips that you want to share with us tonight? I think that's a big problem. I struggled with, I was diagnosed last year with the dumbest syndrome, dumbest sounding syndrome. You can have restless leg syndrome.

52:48So embarrassing. Anyway, it destroyed my life for 15 years. It was, that's an overstatement. It degraded my life for 15 years. It was terrible. And you know who diagnosed it? AI. I was complaining about it to doctors for years. They didn't pick it up, and I complained to Chachi Bt. Another person I never worry alone with when nobody else will listen to me, I'll talk to Chachi Bt.

53:13And it picked it up. And so if you have restless leg syndrome, there are medical things you can do. But for average insomnia, a couple of things.

53:26It helps to have a wind-down routine. Yeah. So mine is I do 15 minutes of walking meditation, take a hot shower and in the hot shower, I list all the good things that happened that day. Then I get into bed. Keeping the room cool is very helpful. Body part of the warm shower also like gets your body temperature down afterwards when you're toweling off. And then the cool room keeps your core temperature low. So sunlight first thing in the morning can be very helpful. And then I find a crucial hack is when you can't sleep, using self-compassion, talking to yourself the way you would talk to a little kid.

54:09Actually, when I was a little kid and I would say to my dad, I can't sleep, he would say, bend over and run as fast as you can into the wall. So don't do that. But when I can't sleep and I'm like, yeah, that tells you a lot about how I develop my sense of humor. When I can't sleep and I'm perseverating, I'm like, I'm making all these projections into how bad the next day is going to be. No. First of all, get out of bed. You don't want to teach the brain that the bed is a place for struggle. So I get out of bed, read a book, watch TV, do some more meditation. And I just say to myself, look, you've had a million sleepless nights, and the next day has always been fine.

54:54You can handle this. Don't worry about it. And that really, the combination of getting out of bed and talking myself off the ledge, helps me fall back to sleep. Thank you for sharing that. I think when I go to sleep, when you say, what are the good things that were in your day, I think this will be on my list now, Dan. Oh, thank you very much. Really, meeting you is just such an extraordinary gift, and I thank you so much. I want to, towards the end, just give you a little housekeeping, and then I do want to finish up with two surprises for Dan. The housekeeping piece is that after we are done here now, there is a reception, as space allows, for us to go to immediately afterward.

55:41The Joy of Connections, and of course, Dan books are for sale as well. We really hope that you get your books and get them signed and you're staying. Yes? That's fantastic. And again, thank you. I do enjoy, with Connected Lives, getting to know the folks who I interview. And in doing that, I do enjoy reaching out to people who are close to you. And one of your dear friends is Bob Woodruff and Lee Woodruff. and Bob and Lee introduced you to your wife, Bianca. And Bob, for you who don't know him, is a wonderful human and he was also at ABC News for a long time and you met him in Pakistan, I think, when you were overseas.

56:29I did, I did. So he's known you before meditation and after. Which makes me dread this video or whatever it is. I just have a quote from Bob. Okay, good. Fine. Better. So this is from Bob Woodruff. I never personally witnessed Dan being an asshole, as he describes himself. I always had a lot of fun with him, and he was a smart, good, supportive colleague. Not always something that you find in TV. But in the TV world, especially with anchors like Dan, narcissism and ego are pretty common. Dan has become the kind of friend people listen to and want to be around. That's very kind. He was quite, unfortunately, famous for having been hit by a bomb in Iraq, nearly died, very nearly died.

57:33And after the traumatic brain injury set me up with my wife, and as I was leaving the gym to go to my first date with Bianca in 2006, he called me and said, dude, she's hot.

57:52So speaking of Bianca, I did reach out to your wife. Okay. Do you know this? No. Did she tell you? No. Oh, good. Good, good, good, good. Okay. So this is from your wife. She did give me a big hug before I left the house and made me think. Something's up. Maybe she was buttering me up or something, yeah. Okay. It's hard to imagine someone more doggedly committed to self-improvement than you. The reality is that you never really needed this extensive of an overhaul. But I would be remiss to not acknowledge my good fortune as a direct beneficiary of a more expansive you. Importantly, your gift shows up outside of our home in the many ways you let humanity know that we are not alone in our suffering and stories.

58:51With love and gratitude, your better half. And then she ends, because you still need to be kept on your toes. Yes, yes. So on behalf of all of us, Dan Harris, I am so honored that you came, that you accepted my invitation. And can we all please thank Dan Harris? Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much to everybody who worked so hard to make this show. 10 % Happier is produced by Tara Anderson. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Kashmir is our executive producer.

59:33And Nick Thorburn of the great indie rock band Islands wrote our theme. One last thing I want to say before you go. If you enjoy this show, please do me slash us a solid. Follow the show and leave a rating and a review on whatever platform you watch or listen to us on. It only takes a minute. It's free and it really helps new people find us and spread the good news that the mind is trainable. Thank you. Sincerely. I mean it. Thank you.