The Funniest Conversation You'll Ever Hear About Achieving Inner Peace | Pete Holmes

10:36Dan Harris:Get you some iron. No, you were humoring him. Okay, fine. That's called a mensch. Yeah, he's a mensch. All right, I know you've told it before, but I think it would be good level setting if you would just tell a little bit of your personal story. You were raised, the next town over for me, you were raised in Lexington. I grew up in Newton, Massachusetts. Oh, wow. And you grew up in a, as I understand it, a Bible-believing family, an evangelical family, which I didn't know they had in Massachusetts at all. Seriously, I thought that I was surprised to hear that that's where you were from But can you say a little bit about your upbringing?

11:11Pete Holmes:Sure, yeah Well, it's a little bit more complicated than that My mother was more churchy My father went because it's good to be normal That was his quote We went to church because he wanted to fit in and not be a weirdo That's what he said

11:26Dan Harris:Did he have that bad of a boss?

11:27Pete Holmes:Oh yeah I go, Dad, why did we go to church? He goes, you don't want to be a weirdo, Peter I could call my father's bank and get money. It's Jay Holmes. I just wanted to send$500 to 444-8911. And they'd do it. Yes, Mr. Holmes. So my dad was not super, no. He would cry at the music, which I thought was really sweet. But my mother wanted us to go to church. And then I really took to it. Because I wrote about this in my book, just in case the people with restless leg have read it. I just was a kid that I believed grownups. Like if you had a wallet and keys and khakis and you, you know, when the world was just legs, you know, everybody's so big.

12:18Pete Holmes:And they're like, this is what it is. Why would they lie? They know all the things. So I bought into it even more than my mother did. So that's what ended up happening I thought I was going to be a youth pastor Because this is my head I went to a Christian college Technically Harvard was a Christian college But you know what I mean, like a lame one

12:44Dan Harris:I thought you were going to say I went to the Harvard of Christian colleges No, that's Wheaton

12:49Pete Holmes:If you're laughing, I can't believe it Wheaton is the Harvard of Christian colleges I went to the Swarthmore of Christian colleges called Gordon College. I haven't heard of it either. But they had like, you had to take Bible classes and you could major in youth ministry. This is just a long way to say no one's ever asked me for my degree, and thank God. Because it was kind of like a summer camp school. I enjoyed my time there. But that's where a lot of people got married. They called it the MRS degree. because you'll never be there with as many Christian people. That's the thinking. You're going to get out in the world and it's going to be Sodom and Gomorrah, so you marry someone here.

13:31Pete Holmes:And I thought that was really dumb and then I really wanted to have sex.

13:37Dan Harris:And that's what it required?

13:38Pete Holmes:Yeah, you got to get married if you're going to have sex. So that's what I did. I mean, this is a lot of people. You should know about this. There's a lot of people that are like, you can't, don't do premarital sex. So you get married in large part to have sex.

13:56Dan Harris:Divorce rates in that cohort must be unusually high, would you say?

14:00Pete Holmes:Yeah, I think so. Although I know a lot of people that are still together that did that. And I'm sort of joking. Obviously, my first wife and I had a connection. We loved each other. I got married when I was 22, though. And then when I was... Everything was just fine. We moved here to Park Slope because we were lesbians.

14:24Pete Holmes:and my brain was so fast it was like do we do it i was like go go for it go for it

14:29Dan Harris:you don't feel like you broke the ice with diarrhea like i think it's all

14:33Pete Holmes:we talked about sonar pings that was a sonar ping to see where are we what are we and then i was like we're ready for the park slope humor and then when i was 28 i'll really do the broad strokes when i was 28 my wife left me she was having an affair only person i had ever been with and my understanding of the divine was if you don't smoke and don't drink and don't swear and you get married and you don't have premarital sex, I felt like I had done everything right. And then it was like I was paying into a protection service and the mafia still burned down my bakery. So it caused this crisis of faith and I was like, I dabbled in atheism.

15:14Pete Holmes:I was just sort of like, I started by being like, well, maybe it's not. All my friends are comedians. All my friends are atheists. So they were all like, you should listen to this one-woman show, Letting Go of God. You should read The God Delusion, all this stuff. So I looked into it. And honestly, my first takeaway was what a relief it was to not think that everyone who wasn't in my church was going to hell. That was actually, it was a, the chapter in my book is called Heratheist because it was a relief of a burden. It wasn't, oh no, I'm alone. it was like, thank God, we're not all on the brink of being tortured.

15:49Pete Holmes:For real. That weighed on me so heavy. I studied in Israel. I went one of the semesters in college specifically to study hell. I just didn't understand how this religion had gotten so with us, against us, in, out, heaven, hell, all that. But I didn't really get the answer. Anyway, then my wife leaves me, and I started thinking maybe it's not how I thought it was. And then I met really beautiful atheists, which was really confusing to me. I know. I was sheltered. I was just like, why would you be good? There was a story, it was me and I know. You should know that there are people wondering that.

16:32Pete Holmes:Like if it's not the lifeguard God, why wouldn't, the example was we were in a holiday and me and these comedians and there was an unmanned little mini bar and it was just like no one was working it. And it was like two in the morning. We were probably drinking. And I wasn't going to steal it, but I was like, why not just take it if it doesn't matter? And they were beautiful. I just wasn't ready for it. They were like, because somebody is working this shift and maybe they'll get in trouble because things were stolen. Maybe they'll get fired. We're not doing it to avoid punishment. We're doing it because we have to take care of each other.

17:07Pete Holmes:And I was just like blown away. Yeah, you can clap, but that is not my line. But it was beautiful, and it was important. I'd grown up thinking, like, the good people believed in my religion, and so I was getting surprised. And then, and I'm only a little embarrassed what a cliche this is, I did Bonnaroo, and I took mushrooms. And it wasn't that I had a religious experience, it's that mushrooms showed me, it wasn't what I saw, it's that I saw that with which I was seeing if that makes sense you want to do some mushrooms

17:49Pete Holmes:bro I am terrified of mushrooms you don't have to and I'm glad you said that because that is not my message I'm not here I think a lot of people are advocating that Ram Dass was one of my first teachers and and that was a huge part of of that path and I loved it and I I've done my share, but I don't think it's essential. I'm not against them, but I'm certainly not telling people to do them. And we're learning more about them, even though they're miraculous. There are certain neurotypes that do not do well with them. And you might be one of them. So listen to your intuition.

18:22Dan Harris:I think that neurotype is Jewish.

18:28Pete Holmes:Now I think you should do them. But you know, I didn't even take that much. It wasn't a Jesus trip. It wasn't a God trip. It just it felt like I mean I can't really put it any better than that it wasn't what I was seeing I saw myself as a witnessing presence so I got a break from Pete this is it man we're jumping right in when you take away everything that can be taken away what's left and that's what happened on mushrooms and I went to that place and then I was kicked out for wearing the wrong garments. It's a Jesus reference. I know where you are. It's the same people with restless legs. So I had to come back.

19:17Pete Holmes:And then I didn't go to Ram Dass right away. I went to Joseph Campbell because the takeaway was it's ineffable. I had a moment. I don't remember much from that trip that I can tell you about specifically, but there was a moment. Tears are streaming down my face. I'm looking, I mean, I'm emotional. Remember, I'm looking at a tree. I'm feeling no separation, all of these things, just crying in a field at a music festival. And I thought, I'm going to have to talk about this and ruin it. So I came back with this real desire to find a way to talk about things you can't talk about. And it softened me, not just to the tradition I was raised with, which is Christianity, but all of them.

20:05Pete Holmes:And once I found Joseph Campbell, I started to discover that the mystics were way ahead of us. And they were saying, literalism is missing the point. It's good to build a bridge. It's not good to talk about the ineffable. It's good for a doctor. It's not good for a clergyman necessarily. Is that metaphor is the only language we have to speak of the mystery. You could say God, let's just say the mystery, reality, awareness. You can't talk about it directly. So then when I started looking at things like a virgin birth or a death and a resurrection through a mystical lens, I was like, oh, they're trying to evoke something.

20:45Pete Holmes:It's not trying to be accurate. I'm not saying it's not accurate. There's a possibility that that's just literal. That's not my understanding, but I'm saying it's trying to evoke something. It's not to be right or to be in or to win a debate or to convert the most people. It's a personal experience. And whatever gets you there evokes that experience in you. And that there were ways without mushrooms of, and meditation is one of them, but storytelling is another one, contemplation, study, chanting. These types of things would take you to that place. But I had the pathway because I had had the psychedelic experience.

21:25Pete Holmes:There were footprints in the snow and I could go back.

21:27Dan Harris:I don't know that much about Christianity, but is it possible to do a rereading for you of the life and utterances of Jesus and view him as a mystic as opposed to the ways often portrayed now, which is a little bit more encrusted with dogma?

21:50Pete Holmes:Absolutely and that's honestly one of the greatest thrills of my life and I'm assuming some of you were probably raised in that tradition and that's it's been really intoxicating to realize that there were not everything it's Father Greg Boyle who's a hero of mine says you call it he calls it the mystic lens you have to go into these things and look at you know what what do you want what are you going to take and what are you going to leave and I think you have to be careful. But sorry, people have probably heard me say this before, but it's something that I feel very passionate about. I think all of Christianity can be summarized in the prodigal son.

22:28Pete Holmes:And I jokingly say that it's Jesus's closer. That's comedians talk for their best bit. Also, if this is interesting to you, historically speaking, it's the most, what's the word, verifiable, meaning non-religious scholars are like, this was Jesus. Jesus said the prodigal son. Now, to answer your question, I'll do this really quick. what Christ has become, it's called atonement theory. It's this idea that you're a wicked little boy and Jesus died to change God's mind about you. Richard Rohr, my spiritual father, said Jesus didn't die to change God's mind. Listen to those words, change God's mind.

23:06Pete Holmes:Jesus didn't die to change God's mind about you. He died to change our mind about God, that he's in it with us. God suffers in and through and with and as you, that he's involved, that it matters. It's beautiful. So the prodigal son, there's no Jesus character in the prodigal son. You've been told, I'm sure, believe in Jesus. He died for you. He's going to wash away your sins and now you can finally go back to God. That's the main narrative. The prodigal son tells a different story, and I'll tell it real quick. It's not a king. People often say it's a king, and he has two sons. One of them says, give me my inheritance.

23:48Pete Holmes:You know the story. Gives it to him. Loving father gives him his inheritance. He goes off into a far-off land. I would argue that's where we are right now. We're in a far-off land using our inheritance. Life. Give me life. Give me independence from you. Life. Incarnation. What do we do? We do what we all do. We squander it. we end up broken, destitute with the pigs. For a Jew, I'm not trying to be funny. For a Jewish person, that's a joke. He was working with the pigs. It's a way of saying he's down and out. He has no money. He has no prospects. He blew it. He blew it. What does he do? He remembers who his father is.

24:26Pete Holmes:It's a recognition. It's a turning around and going, wait, I forgot my father's a loving father. He'll take me back in as a servant. He goes back, and the father, before the son has even reached the house from quite a distance, sees him, runs out, greets him, doesn't make him a servant, throws a party, fattened calf, all those Bible terms, rings on his finger, special robe, because what has lost has been found. And then the father says to the son, you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. That sounds like what can't be taken from you. Awareness, me, life, the ground of being. I was with you there.

25:05Pete Holmes:You can't become what you already are. You were my son here. You were my son there. All he did was remember. Now, what we've turned Christianity into, and I say this with love for my tradition, there needs to be a Jesus figure. So somebody finds the guy with the pigs broken down and says, I'll walk you back to your father. Now, your father is a vengeful man. Someone needs to be killed for this, for your sins, you wicked boy. We know he won't listen to reason, but I'll let him kill me so he'll take you back because he knows somebody's heads need to roll, but it'll be me. That would be the Jesus figure as we've come to understand it.

25:44Pete Holmes:That's not what it is. He just remembers who his father is. Now, I'm not saying you need to use those languages like I'm God's son. That's a little too religious, I understand. But you go, you can't become what you already are. It's a metaphor. Jesus uses the idea of sons and fathers to say, no matter what you do, you'll always be your parent's child. You can't become what you already are. And to quote Richard Rohr, the whole Christian message is to accept that you are accepted. That's what the prodigal son does. He accepts that he's accepted, that he can go home. That's Christianity to me.

26:21Dan Harris:I think this is a compliment. You have a preacher's style. You do. Well, I watch preachers every Sunday, yeah. Yeah, you come by it honestly. Yeah. For sure. I mean, it's great. I come by it honestly. You do.

26:37Dan Harris:Coming up, Pete Holmes talks about what he means when he uses the word God these days, how awareness differs from thoughts, how meditation works, and why forgetting and remembering is all just part of the practice.

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29:50Dan Harris:so when you say god because you do you you're not um you're not in the same situation now as you were in your childhood in your 20s you're if you're a christian at all you're a different kind of christian but you still use the word god what do you mean by that word awareness and let's unpack awareness

30:13Dan Harris:hostile witness awareness consciousness knowing so i think maybe maybe you gave a a pretty like comprehensible like i got it description when you were talking about your first mushroom trip where you said you took away everything except that's right what

30:34Pete Holmes:But the koan that I like the most, Buddhists, my Buddhists, what is but does not exist? I don't want to say it's the best one. I think it's the best one. What is but doesn't exist? Now, we're supposed to go sit with that for a month. So to exist means to stand out from. I'm getting all of this from my teacher, Rupert Spira, who explains it way better than me. But it's to stand out from. So the awareness is the background. You are aware of your experience. I stand out from it and I seem to exist. So to not exist, it is, but we can't, it's nothing. We can't find it. So it doesn't exist. It doesn't stand out from the background because it is the background.

31:17We're like characters in a movie and awareness or knowing, knowing might be better,

31:23Pete Holmes:is the screen. It's what makes our experience knowable. So clearly when we were meditating, if you look at your mind, you're aware of your thoughts. But a thought isn't aware. There's something aware that's looking at your thoughts. We hear the car horn. It appears in awareness. Mind adds, did you hear the car horns? Mind adds the interpretation far away. But it couldn't be closer to you. It's made of you. It happened in you. That's why we say the nature of existence is love, it let it in. It gave it support. It was there. And we go car horn far away. But it's the background in which and out of which everything is made.

32:14Dan Harris:So the nature of existence is love because love is acceptance.

32:19Pete Holmes:Yeah, this might be a little out of my depth to explain, but I see it as a yes.

32:27Dan Harris:I was just going to say this is a safe place to be a bullshit artist. because it's like, bro.

32:32Pete Holmes:Well, even if you're resisting it, what you're resisting has already been welcomed into awareness. So meditation is trying to not conjure up this thing that doesn't exist. You're trying to mimic your own nature. You know what I'm saying? Like you are this fresh, allowing. Again, Rupert uses the metaphor, the space of this room. We could be fighting. We could be dancing. It doesn't change the nature of this room. And to me, meditation has a lot to do with knowing yourself to be that. And what's better than being spacious? I spent the first half of my spiritual life wanting to be right or persuasive or impressive.

33:15Pete Holmes:And now my heroes are like the space in this room. Accommodating, fresh, clear. and it's not just a thought experiment to go like okay i'm like the space in this room once you recognize that you are like a field of knowing which is a little bit easier to know when your eyes are closed but you can still know when your eyes are open in this field of knowing the second step is to ask what is the nature of that knowing because it's again rupert without agitation so we call that peaceful you know it's happy it's joyful i don't mean the kind of joy you get when you eat ice cream. I'm not talking about oxytocin or whatever.

33:54Pete Holmes:I'm talking about without agitation. So when I wake up at four in the morning, as I inevitably will tonight, replaying moments from our dinner. You will. Yeah, for sure.

34:06Dan Harris:Restless legs.

34:08Pete Holmes:Yeah. Do you know anything for that? No, I'll get up to pee and then I'll get back in the bed and I'll be like, What did I say to Dan? Did I embarrass myself? And I'll just have to go, who or what is aware of my experience? And then if you want to get tantric with it, let's say I do, it's emotional, you feel humiliation. So the Vedantic approach is to step aside from it and go, I am not humiliation. I am aware of my humiliation. But the tantric approach is to go, let's get as close as we can to that and let it in for tea beyond no resistance welcoming and you see this thing that you called humiliation is actually kind of a grab bag of 75 different feelings and in my experience 62 of them are bliss and there are some ones that you you don't know what to do with but they they're like children they wanted you to pat them on the head you know and so you go into it but then you go like there's this experience and then there's the knowing of it that's kind of ramdas's approach rupert would go there's no distance between the knowing of it and the experiencing of it it's made of the knowing of it and then you just kind of fall into that

35:36Dan Harris:I have, I think, two ways of understanding it from my standpoint. So I want to say them to you and then just get a sense of whether what I just said makes any sense. So on the example you gave about humiliation, from my basic old-school Buddhist mindfulness approach, well, anything you're feeling with the microscope of mindfulness can be investigated and broken apart into, what'd you say, 60 constituent parts. you know, it's buzzing in the chest, it's a starburst of thoughts, it's rumbling in the tummy, it's a bunch of stuff. And in this way, I believe, I love this phrase, I believe it's seeing by dividing is the way they describe insight meditation or vipassana.

36:22Dan Harris:And so you see that this thing that feels monolithic, personally monogrammed is actually made up of these fluxing parts. and it kind of loses its power in that way. So that's one way in. I have another way in, but how does that land with you, what I just said?

36:40Pete Holmes:I like that. Yeah, I think we're talking about the same thing. I get a little bit like, what is this experience made of? And there's a comfort to going, it's me. It's a modulation of myself. And there's no distance between. I don't find a knower and an experience. I find experiencing. and it's very intimate and it's very close and that helps me release it a little bit. You know, it's like if you close your eyes and go to the experience of your body right now, you know, you feel your butt on the seat, maybe your elbows on the armrest, you see that there isn't really a body per se, there's just the knowing of these different clusters of sensation.

37:27Pete Holmes:And this either does it for you or it doesn't. So if we stick with that, we have body, we would drop that and we just go, okay, there's a tingling at the bottom of our feet, our face, our hands. And then there's my voice. And then there's your thought. I like this. I don't like this. Is there a distance between where my voice is appearing in this field, this knowing field, and the thought? Now picture Michael Jordan. Isn't he emerging out of the same place that the knowing of my voice is emerging, the knowing of the image of Michael Jordan? This is what Rupert says. He says, put out an imaginary hand and pass through your mind's eye image of Michael Jordan and say, what is this made of?

38:16Pete Holmes:Do that with my voice. What is this made of? And really, I don't want to answer that for you. What is it made of? The thought, the feeling, the sensation of my feet, what is it made of? where is it happening? The sound of a distant thing. Your thought, now a feeling comes up, an emotion. There's something really liberating about going, it's me. It's a modulation of me. It's the knowing of it. Is it? And then do we find a boundary? Can you go somewhere here where it ends? Is there a wall, a divider where you find and on the other side of it, there isn't knowing? Now we kind of start to cozy into the dimensionless quality.

39:08Pete Holmes:You could call that infinite, but it's kind of like dimensionless. It's just kind of spaceless, but it's without boundary. And this is where you get compassion. When we were all meditating, when all our thoughts, let's all say we all got to that thoughtless place, were we different? When you're deeply asleep, everybody's Enya. Everybody's Enya on the inside. Nobody's Metallica. I like Metallica. I'm just saying, if you could calm anybody to zero, same. So when I'm struggling with somebody, we share the same nature. You and I share the same nature, and we can go there. That's what's beautiful about things like this.

40:00Pete Holmes:We can actually go there together. How many boundaryless, borderless, infinite spaces could there be? You know, your house is over there. My house is over there. The empty space inside is the same. It's like the Tao. The vase has a shape, but it's the empty space inside that makes it useful. These are people trying to evoke the importance of the nothing. Does that make sense?

40:30Dan Harris:That's a tough question. Let me give you the second way in, because you used the phrase, we can go there, we can go there together. And in my experience, sometimes these conversations can be beautiful, but also a little frustrating for people because it's like, ah, I can't get there. I don't, you know, like I can't fully grok it or experience it for myself. And so the one technique for me that's been very helpful, and I'm just curious to hear your thoughts on it, is it comes from Joseph Goldstein, who is a great meditation teacher and a great friend. And he has this practice called the passive voice practice.

41:08Dan Harris:So in your beautiful sort of impromptu meditation you were guiding us in you were having us tune into the fluxing sensations that we're calling body so one little linguistic trick you can do is oh um tightness or pressure is being known instead of oh i'm knowing or i'm aware of these sensations oh these sensations are being known and then known by what that's right then you're just like turning the camera back at itself in a way and like, okay, who's taking delivery of these sensory packages? What is knowing it? And there's nothing to find. And that's the finding.

41:48Pete Holmes:Yeah. I never understood those, like Alan Watts would talk about, can a knife cut itself? Or can a flashlight point at itself? And that's kind of the space that we're in. And that's why we want metaphor and we want evocative things. But if our awareness is like the sun and it shines on the earth and it makes things knowable. Even, not even, but science would agree with that. There's consciousness and it makes things knowable. To me, what we're talking about, and I think we are doing the same thing, is the sun does illumine itself. It is self-luminous. Again, this is Rupert. We are self-knowing.

42:27Pete Holmes:Something that's very useful to me is like, am I aware? And if you all ask yourself, am I aware? And you go, you go, and you go, yeah, I'm aware. Where did you go? To what experience, and again, this is all Rupert Spira, to what experience are you referring when you come back definitively with a yes? What was that? And don't say, I have this written on my mirror, don't say I don't know, because you're having the experience right now. That's the issue, is what we're talking about when this starts sounding, and I'm with you, can start sounding a little too out there, a little too weird or whatever, confusing, conceptual.

43:08Pete Holmes:We're talking about the most intimate, familiar experience. And not just to get familiar with it, but to align ourselves with its qualities. It's fulfilled. It's at peace. And when you talk about 10 % happier, obviously I was thinking about happiness. There's different altitudes to answer that question at. And don't get me wrong. I'm all about finding your purpose. I'm all about sharing art, connection, helping all family love we can have that chat the most lasting one is getting familiar with who you are because that's their take it from me take it from an affirmation addict i did town hall on friday it's gone it's gone you know what i mean that's i did a comedy show went great show it to me.

43:58Pete Holmes:I don't buy into the idea. Tony Robbins, who I like, talks about living his life for rocking chair moments. When he's old, he'll sit in a rocking chair and remember all the things he did. With respect, I don't buy it. I don't think that's how it goes. I think what we should be going for is peace of mind, self-abiding, self-remembrance, all of these things, because that's a lasting peace that doesn't even need to be conceptualized. If we're old and falling completely apart, it's still with you.

44:28Dan Harris:What are the modalities for you that help you get peace of mind?

44:32Pete Holmes:I mean, honestly, conversations like this, meditation, obviously. I mean, obviously, meaning I think we have that in common. And then sort of strangely, service, getting... This is fun, but my wife, when she left, she was like, you're gonna love it. You're gonna talk about your favorite thing to talk about. So this is indulgent. And then when I'm with my daughter, I'm not thinking oh we're in God's dream I'm just loving my daughter and that is worth a thousand live podcasts, ten thousand a million, you know what I mean? So we can come at it lots of different ways I'm not quite fully baked yet that I could say there's nothing to the seeming Maya or whatever you want to call it I think it matters that we had a nice dinner I think it matters that we were joking backstage.

45:25Pete Holmes:I think it matters that you're smiling. I think it matters that my wife kissed me before she left. I think it matters that I'm excited that I'm going to see my daughter tomorrow. I think it matters that I did a show, that I did what's written in my bones to give to other people. And I can still recall the faces of the people laughing and the thrill of that connection and that merging. I'll talk out the other side of my face as well. I'm just also very interested in what Jesus called the peace that passeth understanding. That one, too. King James. Both. I'm interested in both.

46:01Dan Harris:You called yourself an affirmation addict. Yeah. I felt seen when you said it. Good boy. Thank you.

46:23Dan Harris:So say more about that. I meant specifically how good a boy I am.

46:38Pete Holmes:Just fabulous. Great, great stuff. You want to talk about that, though?

46:45Dan Harris:I want to talk about addiction to affirmation.

46:49Pete Holmes:Yeah, I think everybody's trying to feel safe. And I think people are using outdated modalities. You like IFS, I like IFS. I say that with no shame. I learned getting laughs and being a golden boy meant less fighting, more safety, more quiet for everybody. so it's a wound but it's not I don't begrudge it and it's useful we were talking backstage I was like yeah there are days where I'm depressed or anxious and then I'm driven into the hands of other people when I'm broken this Pete is only so useful well we're like a screen in the movie that's fine but broken Pete is actually one of my favorite Pete's because he needs you and God, that's, we talked about this at the pre-thing, holy and wholeness, it's the same root, right?

47:47Pete Holmes:We need each other. We belong to each other. Ram Dass would say we're walking each other home. So the Pete that's an affirmation addict, it is like, thank God, you know? How much closer to me do you feel to knowing we have the same thing? I think this whole ruse is an excuse to love each other. It's all an elaborate hoax, and I've had experiences, this undulating, overflowing, gratuitous, almost obscene yes of, ah, can't help. It's its nature to erupt and expand and clash, and we're all going to go backstage and take off our masks and laugh to tears and i'll say thank god i was that guy that just needed people to laugh or he felt like a wicked boy you're ah we wouldn't be talking if we weren't affirmation addicts this wouldn't be happening great it's all an excuse it's a hoax It's a hoax.

48:58Pete Holmes:If we were fine, we'd be at home.

49:08Dan Harris:Right, so our wives... Yes. ...are not here tonight. Not by mistake. Your wife's at a play, my wife's at home, and those people are fine.

49:22Pete Holmes:Valerie, you said it backstage that she's just sunlight. Not everybody sees it. So I think, I'm not just saying this because you like it, but that's a credit to you. There's certain people that can see Valerie and I just think she's incredible. It's funny, talk about happiness, relational happiness. We just uncovered this. I was like, we've been together for 13 years and we really are, I don't know. It's just one of the great loves. I really think it is. And sometimes people say, what's your secret? And we go, I say, find someone who thinks what's annoying about you is funny. And that's Valerie.

50:01Pete Holmes:I do a meditation event. I open by saying diarrhea. She would be like, that's my man. And she wouldn't be faking it. She'd literally, she'd feel embarrassed and she'd be like a warm, she says to me, the most loving thing she says is, because I'm quirky. I'm weird. She'll tell you, I'm 75 people in a day. And she sees all of them. And I say to her, my first wife left me, and I'll be like, please don't leave me. You know, like, I know it's so tender, right? And she goes, I'd be bored with anyone else. Can you hear? Ah, wow. It's incredible. But yeah, she's not here she's at oh mary and i'm proud of her because we both deal with codependence so she she loves being like a support she wants to be there i'd object in with her 12 times she'd be smiling you know she went and i'm proud of her i was like you really wanted to see that show it's the last night go see it so she's doing good stuff too our wives are a little different

51:18Dan Harris:because after one of my events, one of the rare ones that she came to, backstage she said, I like you so much better in public.

51:34Pete Holmes:It's fantastic. It's a great line. It sounds like I'll enjoy her if I get to meet her.

51:40Dan Harris:It still hurts a little, actually, when I tell the story. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

51:44Pete Holmes:Now, Val is incredibly sweet, but I am sort of a little bit of a baby. Again, I'm self-directing back to the topic of happiness. I think there's something about being unembarrassed that that's how I am. I say this to Val all the time. I'm like, I'm not resigned to being this way. You know, like I am working on it. But like, thank you for reassuring me here. All this sort of stuff. We talked about it backstage. It's like, I'll go and entertain a thousand people and really get them. And then I just need somebody to be like, you weren't embarrassing. You don't need to be afraid. It's this real, there's a pendulum swing.

52:32Pete Holmes:And again, thank God. Because if I came home, the guy that was on stage, I mean, I love that guy. But like, he's not a great partner or father. Like, you need a real person. That's the other thing about happiness Is like having outlets We're one of the few tribes that don't do like You know, American tribe We don't do mask work We do Halloween But we don't have a lot of allowances For like New Year's It's kind of wild on New Year's You know It's such a pathetic substitute For cultures that understood The nuance, the dreamlike Ethereal quality Of all the different masks we wear and that is one of the reasons I think I'm a very like a deeply happy person is I have these, can grab this vine and swing to a pirate ship and be a comedian I know it's not all of me but it's this whole other thing and then I also get that psychological need I need to be heard and I need to be understood and people laugh, I like the laugh but I like the connection more I like the understanding more and then I swing back I tell Val after I do the show, I'm like, I won't tell that joke for a month.

53:47Pete Holmes:And those 30 days, I'll just be, you know, a boring dad. I love it. But it's because of that outlet. It could be karaoke. I don't, it doesn't have to be show business, but it could be that friend that I'm so grateful for friends that love salty me. Cause I like being, people know me as like a sweet positive. That's true. But man, I love roasting things. Man, I love complaining. I love being a bitch. And when you find real friends that don't just allow that, but celebrate that, that's like wearing masks. It's like, it's a drinking buddy or it's your choir. These are the people that know this side of me.

54:34Pete Holmes:I find that to be really, and then you're not, I'm not burdening my wife obviously i don't think it's just a burden but like comedy me is like hot takes that's great but like you don't want to be with that guy all the time so when i'm at dinner i'm not doing hot takes like it's like i got it out of my system so outlets could be your baseball team but places where you can do it you know when as you're speaking i'm thinking a little bit about

55:01Dan Harris:RuPaul's brilliant stuff on drag. Yeah. You know, just that is, I mean, it's mask work. It's mask work. Yeah. But most people aren't doing it.

55:10Pete Holmes:And I think that's a real loss. I always thought it was funny or interesting that in some of these tribes that do mask work, they put on the mask of like the misfit, the devil, and they look in the mirror and they go, oh, I'm the devil. And then they get to act that way. and everyone knows it's divine. Putting on a show is divine. I'm not Pete. You're not Dan. I don't know your names, but you're not that. You look in the mirror and go, oh, this. And you go around and people keep nudging you to be what they think you are and what you told them that you are. There's nothing wrong with it, but it's divine.

55:58Pete Holmes:I think one of the reasons why we sometimes way too much but acclaim actors, when Meryl Streep transforms, we go, I knew it. I knew you weren't that last one and you're not this one. We're not that. I think there's more understanding, so-called non-spiritual people. When a baseball player, Red Sox, is traded to the Yankees, like Johnny Damon was on the Red Sox, gets traded to the Yankees. Go to Fenway Park, play the Yankees. Johnny Damon comes up and he's a Yankee. Everybody gives him a standing ovation. That's a divine moment. You're not the uniform. I remember you. I know you. You're the guy's son.

56:43Pete Holmes:You can go home. It was just a game. It's my daughter's name, Lila. It's a dance. It's a play. It's a play of the universe. It's not wrong. I'll be someone you can be mad at so you can learn how to forgive I'll be somebody for you to love it's all an excuse to clash up against each other and it's all uniforms and masks and play and that's why I think comedy is so important we laugh at it nothing essential to me is out there because it's the same we're all the same coming up

57:22Dan Harris:He talks about how these ideas we've been discussing in this conversation hold up in the real world, why having a spiritual practice does not eliminate irritation, judgment, or reactivity, and why saying yes, thank you as a little mantra can have immense power.

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1:00:40Dan Harris:What you're describing is beautiful. I'm interested to hear how good are you at applying it to life? In particular, you exist and have thrived in a hyper-competitive and often quite toxic business, the entertainment business. How good are you at like... I'm in moonshine. I mean, you may have a side hustle I'm unaware of that chatty BT did not alert me to. yeah there's a there's a there's a something doesn't line up no i i'm i think it could line up but i'm curious to hear how how well you think you line it up in in in your day-to-day life

1:01:24Pete Holmes:yeah to steal a line from father greg boyle who if you don't know who greg boyle is you should i couldn't recommend his books more um he founded homeboy industries a charity i really love and i asked him the same question because he I mean he'll make you weep talking about this sort of stuff and I'm like how how do you keep yourself in that space he's dealing with he works with gang members and people are literally dying and people are all these sorts of tragedies and he just goes breath breath by breath he's like with every damn breath and I try to remember that I asked Richard Rohr something similar I was like are you cooked are you converted do you just see everybody is God in drag?

1:02:07Pete Holmes:Talk about RuPaul. Or is it effort? And he's like, it's both. That's absolutely me. We were talking about this at the last thing. Take a couple meals away. Take away my coffee. I was telling you, I'll be on an airplane. I'm like, I hate this guy's head. I hate this guy's head. If we're deplaning and the row behind me tries to leave before me, I'll stand and face them to shame them and then take my bag down while making eye contact with them and then deliberately leave slowly. So absolutely, that's... That's why it's so compelling to have a practice. Even as we're discovering it here together, talking about it, it feels like that.

1:03:01Pete Holmes:It feels like, oh, right. you know what I mean I'm not just holding the diamond in my pocket all the time and Valerie my wife again is just so good at the everything belongs of it all that it's not an error when I spend a week completely forgetting any of this stuff and she's like it's not a it's not a mistake it's not a flaw you weren't good when you remembered and you weren't bad when you forgot because you're always the guy's son. You can't become what you already are. But yeah, I lose it all the time, constantly, every day. After this, I'm going to fight you.

1:03:49Dan Harris:I don't like my odds. You're like 6 '6 and 10 years younger than me.

1:03:55Pete Holmes:You'll be fine.

1:03:56Dan Harris:Grab a bottle.

1:03:57Pete Holmes:Break it.

1:04:00Dan Harris:that was spoken like a guy from boston it was yeah that was the most boston thing i've ever said

1:04:05Pete Holmes:oh but that's good ramdas says if you think you're in light i'm not i'm not saying that i don't think people are enlightened i think awareness is enlightened only awareness is enlightened sometimes it wakes up in me sometimes it wakes up in you deep sleep deep meditation you're tasting you're true that's why i feel so good right so i'm not claiming that but ramdas said if you think you're enlightened, go spend a week with your parents. F minus. I've sat with my mother going, I am loving awareness. It doesn't... She has my number, man. She'll break me out of that spell so fast.

1:04:42Dan Harris:Actually, she'll put you into the spell.

1:04:44Pete Holmes:Yeah, that's right. She'll pull me into it. When I visit home, it's like they give you a play that you thought closed in 1986. Yeah, yeah. They're like, here's your script. And you're like, ha, pop, you're the best. How do you do it? It's brutal. So yeah, I think remembering and forgetting, you know, so much of the, I'm not a physicist, obviously, but so much is the wave, right? And I think we're in that wave. And I don't think it's an error.

1:05:15Dan Harris:I love thinking about, and people who've, if anybody's ever listened to my show before, you've probably heard me say this a million times, but I think it bears repeating like one of the original translations of the word that we now translate as mindfulness yeah the word in Pali which is the language in which the Buddha's teachings were written down is sati and it the original translation is remembering yeah it's like we we're in this and this is actually really helpful to know while meditating um it's like the tide coming and going like you're gonna get lost and then wake up again and in your meditation and in your life.

1:05:52Dan Harris:And so you'll be hating the back of somebody's head and then you'll be loving awareness 30 seconds later.

1:06:01Pete Holmes:Okay, so I think you'll think this is interesting. The way that I've learned to meditate with Rupert is, they call it, it sounds a little pretentious, but it's the pathless path. So a progressive path would be, let's focus our attention. The pathless path is sort of like recognizing that it's absurd to focus what you are. It's hard to explain. But the image that I use is resting, self-abiding. It's like being out all day in the city and then you take a hot bath. You just rest into it. He goes, he quotes somebody as saying, enlightenment belongs to the supremely lazy individual for whom even blinking is too much effort.

1:06:45And I just go, you're always with me and everything I have is yours.

1:06:50Pete Holmes:Ramana Maharshi died. They said, don't die. Don't leave us. And he said, where could I go? Where could I go? So you're meditating. When we were meditating, I do get distracted. It's just, yeah, that too. It's just, I'm so unbearably lazy. It's the opposite. it i'm not i've done the the focusing but like what eventually started to make sense for me was just like just oh and it's it's it's hard to explain and i even as i'm saying it i can't believe it works but that's another self-abiding as as a meditation well this is a big debate um and i

1:07:36Dan Harris:don't take a side in this debate. I have two friends, the aforementioned Joseph Goldstein, and then my other friend, Sam Harris. They are old friends of each other and have been fighting about the pathless path versus the more directed, progressive path. And I actually recently had them on my podcast. And it's the only time in the nearly 10 years of having a show where in the middle of it, I put my head on the table.

1:08:07Pete Holmes:Oh my God.

1:08:08Dan Harris:Yeah.

1:08:09Pete Holmes:I could imagine.

1:08:10Dan Harris:Yeah.

1:08:11Pete Holmes:I, you know, there's a place for both. Absolutely. Yes. And again, Rupert would say, as long as if you feel yourself to be a separate person, if you can't just rest in it, then do a mantra, do breath. It's like, fine. Like it's sort of whatever gets you there.

1:08:30Dan Harris:And, and there are different times in your meditation practice, different times in your life, different people for whom different things work. And it's, I mean, one of Joseph's little expressions is, you know, whatever works. Find what works for you. There isn't, I don't think, better or worse. There's what works.

1:08:47Pete Holmes:Yeah, I think you would be well versed in this. It's a tricky thing, all of this wondering about better and worse. You know what I mean? And then when you're there, you see that meditation being this like gratuitous yes and this the more you try the worse you do this surrendering and this melting and and like we i'm not saying i'm above it i'm not saying it's bad but it reminds me of the church i grew up in it's like was it a literal virgin birth or was it a literal seven day creation it's like we might have lost the plot a little bit if dan's head is on the table maybe we took a wrong turn and i'm not throwing shade on those guys because i do it too yeah i'm just saying when you're there there's a lot of laughing yeah there's a lot of it's a funny thing to try to be what you already are it's very funny okay well you

1:09:47Dan Harris:you brought us to laughter we did do for some of you were there we had a little event before this event. And so I'm going to ask you some of the same questions I've already asked you in the course of this evening, but it'll be due to these folks, the restless leg folks. RLF? RLS. Oh, restless leg folks. Okay, yes.

1:10:11Dan Harris:I'm slow. There's a reason why I asked the questions.

1:10:19Dan Harris:laughter in your view you've already kind of articulated it is kind of an expression of, you didn't use these words, and so I'll check in with you kind of an expression of the enlightened mind, is that your view?

1:10:34Pete Holmes:I think it can help you taste let's say this you don't go along with it when you're really laughing or when you're climbing a mountain with no harness, you go to zero. When you meditate, you go to zero. People dancing, people, line cooks in a flow state, they go to zero. So I'm not saying it's unique to laughing, but I do think one of the reasons we love deep sleep, why would you love something you can't remember, but you love it? It's not for how you feel. You love it. You loved it. I'm looking forward to it. You love being zero. Because it was you. It was you with everything taken away that can be taken away, except that which cannot be taken away.

1:11:23Pete Holmes:So this isn't that exotic. You taste it every night. And when you laugh, I think you taste it. If you're... And I'm talking about my own experience. I can't imagine... I'm not going to guess what my audience is going through, but one of the things that I experience when I'm really laughing is void. It's just nothing. and it's such a, it's like the eye of the needle. You can't bring, that girl didn't say yes when I asked her out. It can't go with you. It was just you. You were naked. It felt good, right? And I think that's why a lot of the things we do, flight suits, you know what I mean? People just want a break from all of this, all of our troubles.

1:12:13Pete Holmes:And it feels really, really, really good.

1:12:16Dan Harris:Yeah, it's in our language. We want to be blown away.

1:12:18Pete Holmes:We want to be blown away. Exactly. And I killed them. I killed them. Yeah, I killed them. Yeah, I killed. I killed. Or I died. If I bombed, I say I died. But the funny thing, it's not adversarial, and I promise not to go on too much about this, but if you're curious what it feels like to do stand-up, it's, again, holy and whole. We want to merge, right? It feels better meditating together. Live comedy feels better than watching it. When we all are laughing at the same thing, it's like a drum circle. It's ancient. It's shamanic. And I'm not the fancy boy as much as I'd like to be. If I fall into it as well, we're all gone.

1:13:02Pete Holmes:That's when it's good. It can be co-opted and then the guy's like, I'm the king and I'm the king. But the best ones, I say it to audiences all the time, you're watching me, I'm watching you. Like you're grading me, I'm grading you. Like what do you think? You think you're off the hook? I'm nervous for you. And it's real. And then we start, I could talk about this forever, so you're going to have to moderate, but it's like, it's hyper attunement. It's sexual. I don't mean that in like a it doesn't have to do with literal sex but it's the same thing as I'm sorry but as a good lover it really is oh hairs on your neck when I oh right I don't want to be too graphic I'm just saying the bad sex you've had somebody was doing a bad open mic you know what I mean like it was they weren't attuning you could make it more church-friendly and just say a good conversation, a good date, attunement.

1:14:08Pete Holmes:Somebody saw your face fall when you said, my dad, something happened to you. What's going on with your dad? Holy, that's amazing. We love that feeling. When we can do it together and when you're, I'm saying something and let's say it's crazy and we're all going with it, you're next to every, It's amazing. None of us were there. Not if it's done properly. And that's why a heckler is so offensive to me because they're saying I resist this merging and I want to hinder their merging. That's why a bad comedian is offensive to me because they're resisting merging with the crowd. They're not listening to the crowd.

1:14:51Pete Holmes:They're not attuning to the crowd. It's interrupting something far more special than a show. That's why a cell phone at a Broadway show is so, you snap me out I need to be away. And then I heard whatever sound brings me back to all the stuff I'm trying to, just a little break.

1:15:17Dan Harris:Let's end on this. You have a little mantra that I really like. And I'd love to hear you talk about what it means and how you apply it. Yes, yes, thank you.

1:15:28Pete Holmes:Yeah, I think you might have added a yes, but I like it.

1:15:34Dan Harris:I didn't ask for notes

1:15:39Pete Holmes:it is yes thank you

1:15:40Dan Harris:yes thank you

1:15:42Pete Holmes:I've heard really good teachers saying if you can just say yes to what is that's all you need I don't know how true that is but I found I wrote a book which I mentioned and they sent copies of it which is funny the book is where I wrote about yes thank you and then they sent copies to all the reviewers. And then I looked through it and it was like three versions ago. As a writer, you can relate to this. It had notes to myself in it. It had a word I used to go, meaning come back to this, which is a silly word, flappy. Just says flappy throughout the whole book. There were chapters that I cut in the book.

1:16:26Pete Holmes:It was just my first book, deeply disappointing. and you feel this like black cloud, you're just sad, then you're embarrassed. To me, it's the feeling and then it's the embarrassment that you have the feeling. It's worse than the feeling. And I find that it really, we don't even have to spiritualize it or philosophize it. It just short circuits your brain if you say yes, thank you to it. And I mean almost instantly. in my experience. Flight is delayed. Yes, thank you. It's so weird. That's why it works. Everything, attraction and aversion, right? So aversion is just charging it with all of this push, like a basketball underwater.

1:17:19Pete Holmes:So you're giving it all the energy when you just, yeah, As if it's what you wanted. And then you realize you're in an airport. You realize you'll be in an hour later. And you know, the brain wants me to be like, and then you recognize somebody you haven't seen in 20 years. It doesn't have to be that. It can just be a clean breath and a recognition that you're alive. And maybe you see the sun coming through the window. And maybe you remember that people used to die in covered wagons on the journey you're about to take in four hours. But that's mind stuff. But it can really be way less than that.

1:18:05Pete Holmes:Really not debating with the bad feeling, just saying yes, thank you to it. That's been one of the most powerful things in my life, for sure. I'm glad you brought it up because it's been really, really helpful. So, yeah, with the book, I laughed because I was like, it's in the book. And I was like, yes, thank you. And I mean, it just lifted. It just lifted. And travel stuff. I travel a lot, so I do it a lot in traveling.

1:18:31Dan Harris:You might think that what I'm about to say is a bit, and I'm not fucking with you at all, as an affirmation junkie. I had high expectations for night, and you exceeded them. You were amazing. Thank you.

1:18:44Pete Holmes:Oh, thank you, my friend. And thank you. Thank you very much.

1:18:54Dan Harris:Thanks again to Pete Holmes. He's my friend now. I don't know if he knows that, but he's my friend now. Don't forget to check out my new app, 10 % with Dan Harris. If you sign up, you and I can be friends. DanHarris.com. There's a free 14-day trial if you want to check it out before you buy. Last thing to say here, thank you so much to everybody who works so hard on this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Kashmir is our executive producer.

1:19:29Dan Harris:And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.

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