The Non-BS Science of Manifestation: How Your Imagination Can Help With Pain, Anxiety, Conflict, and Recovery | Cassi Vieten

28:56This can happen in a relationship and it can happen at a paradigm level and everything in between. And so the rush to make something productive, to move those possibilities into what philosophers of imagination called constraint, not a bad thing. Constraint is actually a good thing because when we move into constraint, which means, okay, but what do we actually have the tools for and what's actually feasible and what could happen in this setting, when we race to that too quickly, we leave out a ton of possibilities that if we were to spend more time with them, we might realize, oh, wait, that could actually be feasible in a situation that could be applied.

29:41So the encouragement is to spend more time in the open field of possibilities. And this moves into VISTA, right? Ideating, sensing, transforming and applying, see if we can move it into creativity. The conditions that foster creativity are not that open, huge mindedness. It's actually how can I make something that will actually work? And that's how we move from imagination into creativity. So places like Pixar, Google, Apple, they've all come to the conclusion that they have to give many of their employees time to just imagine so that they can come up with outside the box solutions and not be kind of harnessed into a productive mindset every minute of every day.

30:31Makes sense. And every time I, you know, give myself time to go on meditation retreat or take a walk or whatever that's or meditate, that's when the best stuff happens, as opposed to when I'm trying to bulldoze my way towards solutions. If you eat well, stay active and still wake up exhausted every morning, the missing piece may not be your effort. It could be your sleep. Sleep sets the stage for the rest of your day. It's the time when your body quietly goes to work to heal your mind and your body, steady your mood and generally restore your energy so you can show up at work, home and throughout life rested and ready.

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33:47I'm so happy that our son is now back from summer camp. He went away for three and a half weeks to make his reentry smooth and joyous. We bought him a few gifts, one of which was a floating basketball net for our little pool in the backyard. And he is very happy about it. And we bought said basketball net from Wayfair, one of our sponsors today. You can find quality materials on Wayfair that stand up to real life. They've got this vast selection, all of it, really high quality. And you can shop with Wayfair Verified, your shortcut to durable pieces, hand vetted by product specialists. using a 10-point quality inspection, testing things like the quality of the materials, functionality and features, and even how long it takes to build.

34:32You can join Wayfair Rewards today to get 5 % back on every purchase and start saving on your next home upgrade. Head to Wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com. Wayfair. Every style, every home. Just take us back through the rest of Vista briefly, just so we know what it is. Yeah, so Vista, visualizing, we've talked about ideating. This is things like thought experiments or imagining counterfactuals or imagining ways that things could be different and using those thought experiments to explore the problem that you're trying to solve, right? So what you're doing is changing the way you think temporarily, letting go of some of the constraints for a little bit and saying, but what if?

35:25What if I was able to do this without anxiety? What if I was able to have a different view on things? I'll share with you a difficult example from my life. I'm in recovery from alcoholism and when I was an actively practicing alcoholic my imagination got very very very compressed and narrowed and this happens for people in addiction, it happens for people in depression, it happens for people in anxiety where the possibilities get very small. So you can drink or you can feel terrible. Those were the two possibilities. And my choice was often to drink, which became untenable over time because it's extremely harmful.

36:10Then my imagination told me, if you tell anyone that you need help, you are going to be blackmarked forever. You're going to be seen as irretrievably impaired. And so the main thing you need to do is make sure that you never let anyone know how bad this is. That became a year, at least, of self-torture and not functioning well, not showing up how I wanted to be, and finally hitting a place where, out of sheer desperation, I called a coworker and said, I can't stop drinking. And they came to my house and said, oh my God, we love you so much. Take the next month off. Find treatment. Don't worry.

36:59We've got everything covered. I mean, that was a year of me imagining that the response would be, we hate you, you're terrible, you're a huge failure, when the real response was, oh my gosh, please take care of yourself, we've got it covered. That's what I mean about opening up your imagination, and we don't want to wait until we're desperate and at the very end of our rope to open up our imagination and say, Is there a different solution for my marriage that feels like it's gone dead? Is there a different solution for my kid who won't talk to me? Is there a different solution that I can imagine as opposed to looping around the same thought patterns over and over and over and over and not getting anywhere?

37:43I'm sorry to hear about that struggle you had. I'm very brave of you to talk about it here. I've never heard anybody call themselves a practicing alcoholic. I kind of like that phrase. Oh, yeah. No, I was definitely actively practicing. Yeah, well, I'm glad you're on the other side of it. So that's ideating now made vividly clear to us through your willingness to be vulnerable. Remind me, what is the S in vista? S is sensing. And so one of the things that can really make your imagination so much more useful to you is to move beyond the visual, as we were talking about, and sense into how might it feel different if I did this in a different way?

38:25How might it feel differently in my body? How might it feel different in my emotions? How might my heart and my state of being be different? And so you can imagine a situation that is not happening right now, maybe one that you want to happen, and instead of just visualizing it or ideating about it, put your whole entire body into the situation. I'll give you a good couple of examples. One is a colleague of mine named Bob Beard is at the Center for the Science of Imagination at Arizona State University. And he's working with veterans who often come out of their time in the military, feeling like they have limited possibilities, like their identity was their military life, they may have experienced a ton of trauma, they're carrying that with them, they don't really know where to go next.

39:18So what he did was paired them with artists. And they sat down and started imagining possibilities for their new life that were unedited. Like, let's not think right now about exactly how this is going to happen. Let's just imagine yourself in a new life where you are the kind of person you want to be. You're showing up, you're in the activities and connections you want to have. The artist sketches it out for them and creates art pieces that the veterans then kind of use as guideposts or a map for how they want to move into the future. It's not that they create a carbon copy future of what the artist created or what they saw in their minds, but it sure gives them a sense of hope and optimism and a compass.

40:01What is my true north and how can I orient all of my decisions around that true north? It helps a lot if they put themselves into the situation. Another example is we have used virtual reality quite a bit in our studies, virtual reality for mindfulness training, virtual reality for awe induction. And during COVID, my colleagues, Patrick Coleman and Origami Air and the Arthur C. Clark Center for Human Imagination, everybody was at home, but they had their VR headsets. And so they had youth from a number of different countries who would join in their VR into an airship that was flying over something like the Pacific Northwest.

40:44And they had conversations in their avatars with each other about what kind of world they wanted to build in the future. Number one, many of these young people said, no one's ever asked me what kind of future I want to build on Earth, in our world, in our society. And so they had to really think about it. They shared it, and then the VR artists were, as they shared, creating that future. And eventually, the airship landed, and when the avatars came out of it, this is all in a VR headset, they saw what they had imagined, the village square, a place where elders were respected, a place where art could be made and shared, a redwood grove where people could go to reflect and be mindful.

41:29It was incredible, you know, that the embodied entry into that kind of place, whether it's in VR, in art, or even just in your imagination, has a whole different power in helping with you being able to hope, have optimism, have a direction, and even create some plans about how you're going to get there. Very practically on the sensing part of Vista, How would I do that in my everyday life in order to access this? Well, I was listening to your podcast a while back and you talked about fear of going into an MRI. And so that would be a really good example of being able to lie down, imagine with all of your embodiment, what it will be like to lay on the table, to be rolled back, to have the huge sounds, doing that over and over and over again, but feeling yourself in it, relaxed, calm, grounded, even fearful, but being able to witness the fear and allow it to be there and return to the breath, doing that over and over and over and over again in your imagination is in some sense a form of exposure therapy, I guess you could call it.

42:49When you do go into the situation, no shame if it's like, sorry, still panicked, still don't want to go in. But it's much more likely that you'll be able to do it in a way that you want to do it if you've imagined it all that time. You know, as I say, it's influential. It's not something that's going to cure everything. But there is now a ton of exposure therapy, using imagination, using virtual reality for people who have trouble with that kind of detail in their imagination, using graded exposure therapy for fear of flying, fear of spiders, fear of all kinds of things. Walk us through T and A, and then I want to ask you about some very specific use cases.

43:30Yeah. So very quickly, T and A are transforming and applying. And this is where we get into the realm of creativity. So you've visualized, you've ideated, you've sensed into it. Then it's like, okay, can I take these imagined scenes and transform them into something that's actually real or actually helpful in my life? Also, So people have had some very interesting experiences where they have done imagination exercises, going back in time to a very difficult part of their lives and meeting themselves in that part of their lives and saying, hey, kiddo, I know that it's really, really hard right now and I'm so sorry you're going through this.

44:13Just know that you're going to make it through this. You are going to make it through it and I'm here in your future. I've got you. I'll see you when you get there. Okay, it obviously doesn't change the past, but wow, it really changes somebody's feeling about the past. And that change in perspective and feeling helps them live into the future in a way that's not hampered or driven by their past. That's a great experiment done by colleagues, Julia Mossbridge and Michael Shapiro. They also have people go into their future and meet their future self and say, you know, this is your idealized future self.

44:51It's somebody who's embodying the way that you want to be in the world in the future and having their future self kind of be like, hey man, I'm up here. You're going to do great. Here's a couple tips for how you get to where I am right now. Those imagination exercises seem like such a fantasy, but when you talk to these folks, they're like, ever since I met that future self, I know where I'm going. I know how to make decisions. I just ask myself, is it taking me closer to that future self or is it taking me further away from it? Did we cover the T and the A there? Yeah. So transforming, that's what transforming is.

45:26And applying is bringing it into the world. You know, whatever you imagined, even if it's something that can't happen right now, can you sketch it? Can you diagram it? Can you sort of write it down? Can you create a poem about it? Can you create a painting about it? Can you do something? Or can you actually create a project? Can you create a podcast? Can you create a paper? Can you create an organization that is going to actually make change based on what you learned through the earlier parts of Vista? If you're a loyal listener to this show, you know that I am an avid worker outer. And if you are going to exercise on the regular, one thing you need, it's a non-negotiable, at least in my opinion, you need quality socks.

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48:12Okay, so let's talk about how to apply our capacity to imagine in some very specific areas of our lives. You write a great deal in your book about using imagination to deal with catastrophizing. So let's get super granular and specific on how we can do that, because I think a lot of people listen to the show, including the host of the show, deal with a lot of catastrophizing. Yeah, I mean, pretty simply, if you continue to catastrophize about an upcoming situation, I'm going to do a terrible job, something terrible is going to happen to my child, this is never going to make it, you know, what I'm trying to do is never going to manifest itself.

49:00you can't really stop that as you know from mindfulness practice we can become aware of those thinking patterns and see them as thinking patterns and stories but you can actually create counter stories and imagine them in great detail i am going to be able to make it through this there is going to come a time when my kid and i are going to be talking to each other again Today, they're going to have a good day. They're not going to have a terrible day. They're not going to fall apart. And sometimes those imaginings are, they hold information for you that you didn't know about before. So it's not like my kid's having a super hard time.

49:40They're struggling a lot. Maybe they're not doing well in school. They're calling me saying they feel depressed. That is understandably terrifying. And you can't get out of it through imagining your way out of it. But you can consider a time in the future when your kid is coming out of it, you're back in connection, they're doing well, and you might say, you know what, that kid, they actually need more structure or they need more time in nature. They need more art. They need more encouragement for their singing. Maybe you're someone who's like, dude, you're never going to make a living singing.

50:16Like, it's not a good idea for me to encourage you to sing. but through your imagination, you say, you know what? It actually is a good idea for me to encourage them to sing because when do I see my kid come alive? It's when they're singing. Let me put more effort and energy into that. I want to share too a great form of therapy called geek therapy that I write about in the book where kids who are deeply into their fandoms, deeply into their screens, you know, obsessed with Fortnite or, you know, the world of Harry Potter, these geek therapists will talk to them about their fandom and they'll say things like, okay, you're having a hard time at school.

50:57Which of your friends reminds you of the villain in the thing that you're this huge fan of? Which of your friends reminds you of, you know, who's the Sam to your Frodo? Who's somebody that you know has your back? All of a sudden, And through these stories, these kids are opening up and this is a way they understand their lives and they're willing to share their emotions through doing it in this mediated way in what they're such a huge fan of. So you said a lot there. I just want to go back to the sort of the base case of me or anybody watching or listening, worrying about a specific thing and then catastrophizing about it.

51:33again, the kind of maladaptive imagination that we talked about at the beginning of this conversation and how we can use adaptive imagination to calm the nervous system. And you said something like kind of imagining it going well. So, for example, if I haven't done a public speaking gig in a long time, usually if it's on television, I'll be nervous for 48 to 72 hours beforehand. And I think what you're saying is I can actually just imagine that it goes really well and that I've helped people and had a good time. When in your life are you the most grounded, comfortable, and in flow? So if you imagine the times in your life when you're most grounded, comfortable, and in flow, when you feel like you are at the top of your game and stuff is just coming through you, you're not having to create it, feels great.

52:25I did this when I had a public speaking fear and I was literally backstage and I'm a soccer player. And so I thought about when are the times when I feel at a very embodied level, the best I ever feel, it's when I'm playing soccer. And so I said, just get out on that stage and put the ball in the net. And that framing of a different way of kind of storytelling, I was like in my uniform, in my cleats, in my imagination, walking onto the stage. And I'm like, hey, everybody, how's it going? You know, it's the bringing in the soccer imagination didn't make me play soccer on stage. It made me speak well because I was imagining a time that I do feel that way.

53:08Okay, let me ask you about another specific use case for the imagination. You say we can use it when we find ourselves in conflict with other people. Obviously, one of the greatest stressors of most of our lives is difficulties with other people. And it's often because the two people in the situation or more than two people in the situation have very different worlds that they're living in. And that really tells you how much imagination is a part of the world you live in. If two of you are having the exact same experience and you are seeing it completely differently, it's not the sensing of the experience that's different.

53:50It's what you're imagining about the experience. so you know a partner doesn't take out the trash for three days when it's their job and it's sitting there smelling and overflowing you're imagining you know this person is just showing me how much they don't respect me they're showing me how much they don't care about our home the other person not doing it is saying, I am so overwhelmed. I'm almost immobilized by life. Like I can't even get myself to face the trash. They're not thinking at all about you. They're not thinking about whether or not they respect you or whether or not they care about their home.

54:32They're like, I can't face it. I just, I can't even do it right now. So you're having two different imagined experiences. And what you can do is become curious. What are you imagining about this? When you don't do this, I'm imagining that you are saying, I don't really care about her and I don't really care about my house. And I want to know what are you experiencing about this? Hopefully people have enough insight to say, you know, I just feel like I can't face it. I can't do it right now. And I don't even, you know, I don't want to ask for help or it's so low on my priority list right now. I'm so stressed about other things.

55:07And as we share what we're imagining with each other, it becomes clearer and the pathway through it can become clearer. You have this term, the inevitability loop, and that we can use imagination to interrupt it. You might have just described it, but just in case you haven't, I want to throw that out there as something you can respond to. Yeah. I mean, it's just that this is the way it is. It's the way it has to be. It's the way it always will be. That thought goes against what you and I understand as obviously the temporary nature of reality. And in order to get beyond that feeling of inevitability, we must sit back.

55:50And if we need to, we can create external conditions for new perspectives and imagination. One of the things I really loved about the acronym VISTA is if you go to the top of a mountain or you go to a place with a huge view or you go to the ocean, even if you look at those images on your screen, it can really help you dial out your imagination to have a sense of awe. You've probably had Dacher Keltner on the podcast. Awe is, you know, your mouth drops open your eyes open your pupils dilate you even make a sound sometimes like ah right you're actually opening to some new possibility and so if you're stuck in a thought of either inevitability or in there's only two choices and i can't decide which one to make most of the time there are many many more than two choices certainly more than one And if you can't bust out of that yourself, you can try going outside, exposing yourself to these huge vistas.

56:52You can try many other ways of delving into your imagination, having something come out of it. All kinds of practices do this throughout the world. And, you know, psychedelics are one of those. Not for everybody, right? But if you've been beating your head against one wall for a very, very long time, sometimes it takes a two by four to crack that open. How can we use imagination to deal with physical pain? Yeah, there are some good studies showing, and sometimes this is with just imagination, and sometimes this is with addition of virtual reality. One of the most powerful studies is when kids, young people have a burn, and it's severe, they have to go through a process of wound debridement, which is one of a very painful medical procedure that has to happen to avoid infection and speed healing.

57:45And so what they did for these kids is gave them a VR headset and put them in a snow cave where they bury their body in snow and there's ice everywhere. While they're doing the wound debridement, which burns and feels hot, they're in this and they showed significant reductions in pain. Now people are using VR for something even like dental work with kids or getting a blood draw, which is very scary for most kids. They're finding, I'm not even sure why they're not doing this all the time now because the data are very clear. That in part because of distraction and in part because you're giving your brain different messages that are pretty compelling.

58:25That kids do much better with blood draws, with dental work, when they're in these imagined worlds. VR headsets are not always available to us. So if I've just stubbed my toe or I'm in an interview and this often happens and my back is hurting, can I use my imagination to reduce the pain signals? Yeah, put a snowpack on your back in your imagination, stick your foot in an imaginary cold, cold, cold waterfall. The reason we use VR is because it's a powerful illusion and it gives your 360 degree. It's a very powerful, like the first time I learned about VR, they asked me to step off a plank that was four stories high and, you know, inside of your mind, you know, you're in a room and if you step off, nothing's going to happen.

59:11But, oh, I had, I got into a cold sweat. I could not step off that plank. Very powerful illusions can be helpful. But if you train yourself in imagination, you can harness the influence that imagination has. It won't take away all the pain. It will not take away all the pain, but it will help you reduce it. Final question for me. I saw something in preparing for this. Marissa Schneiderman, our senior producer, gave me what we call a prep doc. There was something in there about re-enchanting life through what you call glimmers. And I specifically saw a mention in there of how these glimmers can allow you to feel safe in your nervous system, a phrase that really struck me because as somebody who's had quite profound anxiety since sentience, that is not always a sensation I have.

59:59So I wondered if you could say a little bit more about how we could get these glimmers. Yeah, so I'm trying to remember the name of the psychologist or healthcare practitioner that coined the term glimmers, but she calls them the opposite of triggers. So we have triggers throughout our lives. We typically overreact to a cue in our lives because of past experiences, understandably, and those triggers can reactivate some old stuff. So we might get more angry about a situation than we would have been otherwise because it connects to a past one. We might get more reactive or more scared. Glimmers are kind of the opposite of that.

1:00:41Right now there's a bird making a nest on my porch and there's these little tiny birds in it that are meeping. these are like antidotes to find some of the beauty and the mystery of life and they work in exactly the opposite direction telling you hey life is pretty amazing also there's a lot to be grateful for I am kind of in a place where there's so many things in my life that I could be paying attention to that are right and good and true and those things don't always have to be real. You can spend time in your imagination encountering these kinds of glimmers, these things that make your nervous system feel better.

1:01:24Anything from imagining that you're going to a beautiful safe space. People have cultivated these imaginary safe spaces in their minds. Mine is like a mossy bank next to a river. And, you know, I sit there watching the leaves go down the river that can be thoughts or worries, and that can be really helpful for me. And what Rick Hansen calls taking in the good. So you can imagine wonderful things that have happened, that you haven't savored completely, or that you can savor over and over again. I mean, I can still savor when I was home with my daughter 25 years ago as a baby and sitting in a rocking chair with the sunlight filtering through the glass, little motes of dust, and smelling the top of her head that smelled like a loaf of bread and the profoundly powerful love that I had for her in my arms.

1:02:24It can be a long time ago. It can be yesterday. But as Rick says, we tend to ruminate about the negative. We can make the choice to also savor the positive and bring it back to mind and pay more attention to it, recognize that our brains aren't wired necessarily to focus on those things because they're not threatening. But in fact, they can become biochemical antidotes to the stressors in our lives if we take that time to spend time with savoring those experiences. You were just at the end of that answer talking about taking in the good. I'm going to go back to the first thing you mentioned, which is about the safe space, or sometimes referred to as a happy place.

1:03:11And these ideas have been degraded by having achieved Cliché, right? Cliché, yes. I know, I know. Sometimes I cringe myself. I'm like, oh, come on, you just spent five years of research showing things that are common knowledge or were being talked about in the 70s. But, you know, some of them have this very powerful nugget of truth in them, and we need to be reminded. And luckily, now we have the tools of neuroscience to help us see that they're not just fantasies. They are having an impact in our biochemical makeup and our brains. And, you know, I personally believe that our subjective experience is just as important as pictures of brains.

1:03:51But hey, it's pretty validating to see those pictures of brains and be like, hey, it is making a difference. Yes. And I used the happy place imagination technique when I was taking flights with my exposure therapist when I was in the middle of panic disorder on planes, although I still have it, but not as bad. And imagining sitting on the beach with my family actually was quite helpful. Not a panacea, but quite helpful. Just in closing, can you just remind everybody, Dr. Veyton, of the name of your new book and anything else you've put out into the world? Yeah, it's Imagine That. Transform how you think, feel, and live with the science of imagination.

1:04:35You can find us at the Arthur C. Clarke Center for Human Imagination. We'll be having an Imagination Summit August 11th when the book launches. And if you missed that, then you can find that at the Heart-Mind Institute. And I'll also be teaching a workshop on imagination at the Esalen Institute in December. Cassie, thank you. Thank you, Dan. Thank you so much to everybody who works so hard to make this show. 10 % Happier is produced by Tara Anderson. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Kashmir is our executive producer.

1:05:11And Nick Thorburn of the great indie rock band Islands wrote our theme. One last thing I want to say before you go. If you enjoy this show, please do me slash us a solid. Follow the show and leave a rating and a review on whatever platform you watch or listen to us on. It only takes a minute. It's free and it really helps new people find us and spread the good news that the mind is trainable. Thank you. Sincerely, I mean it. Thank you.

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