There's an Off-Switch for Stress. Here's How to Build It | Kelly Boys

28:52Right. There are like levels you go down. First, you just think of yourself as, I'm going to use this word again, this sort of undifferentiated juggernaut, this core entity that's moving through the world. I'm just all Kelly all the way down. And then at the, maybe the next level for some people is seeing, oh, Kelly's got parts, the scared part, the feeling insufficient part, the whatever other parts are there. And then you can work with these ancient neurotic programs in a friendlier way so that they're not just, you know, owning you every time they achieve salience in the magic eight ball of your mind.

29:27And then the level deeper is to see that there's some unnameable, barely knowable aspect of your mind that is simply aware of the whole pageant. And that's emptiness. That's when you see that that awareness you can't claim is yours. And And that's where things get very weird and very interesting and very, like, to use a loaded phrase, liberating. Absolutely. For me, some of those insights came earlier on out of the blue. And so then I got into meditation because I was trying to understand what it was that I had recognized. And it was deeply liberating, but also the integration and the living that out into a human life takes time.

30:14And it took me about a decade. I'm still 15 years in process, but it took me about a decade of a lot of intense practice to look at these essential insights of meditation and what it looks like to actually embody that all the way down, as you're saying, you know, from the level of mind to emotion to how does it live out when something happens at work or in relationship, all of it. And then it's an ongoing journey. But I did have a about decade long time period where it was kind of 24-7 for me. 24-7 what? Doing the work of meditation, I couldn't turn it off. And, you know, I would say that's still true, but it feels more kind of like a calm background operation, you know, rather than what was before a lot of intensity for me.

31:10because I had to really work with anxiety and different things that I was experiencing that were, you know, a challenging marriage I'd gotten out of and that kind of thing. And it took time to be able to integrate these meditative insights into my life and into the lived experience of who I am. You said the meditation was sort of 24-7. What aspect of it was most salient for you? Was it the I contain multitudes part, the Walt Whitman like seeing, oh yeah, there's a lot of different parts of me? Or was it the level deeper of, yeah, what is it? Who is it that's even aware of all of these parts? And that can be kind of a shattering insight because then this cohesive self that we are clinging to has no ground to stand on.

31:55What was the active ingredient of this 24-7-ness? It was mostly the second one, but had to apply to the first. And so, I mean, I remember when I had my first kind of meditative insight out of nowhere, just looking at kind of a calendar on the wall. And I've never done psychedelics. And so I called my, at the time, boyfriend and I said, none of this is personal. It's amazing. You know, it just was this clear as day to me. And then I started getting into going to retreats and trying to understand what it is I'd just kind of seen out of the blue. And so for me, I bet reverse engineered it, whereas typically people would do practice and then come towards these insights.

32:32And I just stumbled upon the insights and then have spent time understanding what that means as a lived, like, how do I live this out? Like, okay, all right, none of this is personal. What does that mean? No, I went way too far to the side of nothing's personal. And then, you know, I've kind of come back more to the middle that, okay, it's personal and not. And I think also the other thing, I couldn't get away from the awareness that I was suddenly in touch with. And it's interesting not to be able to sleepwalk or when you're sleepwalking, you see it immediately, like where you get lost in something and it's just seen.

33:07And the process of that, I don't mind it, but it's like it couldn't turn off. And so it was both the working with my life part and the focusing on the awareness and all of the kind of meditative insights that come from that. I'm not quite sure I understand when you say this awareness that you couldn't turn off, even though you don't mind it. What does that mean that like you couldn't daydream anymore? Well, I did go through a time period where that was hard for me to do. But what I mean by I couldn't turn it off, like it's as if I got in touch with that and then couldn't forget it, including when the moments come in my life when I'm like completely fused with an emotion.

33:59I still, there's some part of me that still deeply knows. And so it's almost like that part turned on and hasn't turned off. If that makes sense, it sounds weird when I say it, but. Okay, I'm going to say something that you're probably not going to want to comment on, but just in case listeners are new to all this and thinking, oh, is Kelly nuts? This maps onto my very weak understanding of what in the oldest of old school Buddhism, Theravada Buddhism, is sometimes referred to as stream entry. It's often considered the first and earliest stage of enlightenment, pretty accessible to mere mortals.

34:41You don't have to have spent your whole life in a cave in order to achieve stream entry. Again, this is my very rough understanding, so Buddhist scholars, please go easy on me. But it roughly is this waking up to the illusion of the self in a way that is an upgrade of the software that doesn't revert. And once you've entered the stream, you are in this lifetime or the next or the next or the next inexorably headed toward full awakening. Now, again, this is not me making this argument. This is me explaining the way it's viewed in this ancient tradition. The thing about stream entry is in some traditions, you're not supposed to say I'm a stream enterer.

35:23So I said all that. You don't have to comment on it, but I will stop talking in case you have something you want to say. Yeah, I started at that meditative insight. And so, it was very much a waking up for me. And then since then, it's been, I think, what some people call waking down. where you get integrated all the way back down into every nook corner and cranny meaning absolutely does not mean that anyone is perfect you know i don't believe anyone has ever been perfect but just there is a feeling like you can't go back to a more fused way of being in the world including when there's fusion that occurs.

36:06Yes, you can get confused momentarily about the fact that your anger is not actually your anger. It's an impersonal coming together of psychic ingredients just the way a hurricane is an impersonal coming together of atmospheric ingredients. You can get momentarily confused, but it's only momentary. Whereas for most people, the untrained mind, we are walking around with this illusion that all the stuff that's happening between our ears is ours, is us. Great way to say it. Okay, so we've achieved two things at this point in the interview. One is I think we've given people a decent understanding of Yoga Nidra and its history and its current iterations.

36:52And we've also, I think, really established a little bit more about your background and why this practice and others have been so useful to you. What I would love to have us move to is this. Since Yoga Nidra does require guidance and we're not going to do that right now, what can listeners learn through your description of the practice that they can take into their lives immediately without actually doing this whole thing? One thing to take away would be, what would it be like to kind of rest back into a quality of awareness? So you could even, right now as I'm speaking, feeling the entire backside of your body and allow a sense of rest as you're aware of whatever it is that's in your experience right now.

37:43It's just really, it's the same process of the mindfulness meditation, but just bringing attention to the whole backside of the body and also being aware of what's present. And then what would it be like, you know, if you were to kind of move through your day in that way where there's this kind of resting or holding presence, your own, that's here, aware of the coming and going. so not needing to hold yourself separate from what you're observing so there's this kind of relaxation in the body that happens you know when that kind of refusal of what's here is dropped and one quick way to do that would be to consistently throughout the day kind of check in return back to this felt sense of awareness and let it be something that isn't necessarily so directed from the mind, but that is a felt sense exploration as you go through the day.

38:48That can be game-changing for sure. So we can every once in a while in the hurly-burly of the day drop out of our spinning stories and into just this very simple awareness of the back of our body, back of our head, neck, our back, back of our legs. That makes a lot of sense to me. in that I get how that getting out of your head and into your body, just in this very simple, accessible way, can cut short the overthinking and fretting that we're often doing. Where you lost me a little bit, and I blame myself, not you, for this, is how that pertains to allowing everything to arise and pass in our experience without either clinging or refusing.

39:40Mm-hmm. So, if you consider that, in some sense, awareness would be like the background to what's coming and going, and what's coming and going is in the foreground. So, it's almost just the somatic correlate of that. So, I'm just going to feel the whole backside of my body, and that there's something that as I do that, there's like a nervous system downregulation. Kind of, someone's got my back, or I've got my back, or life has my back, you know? And as the nervous system can downregulate, then much more likely to be open and curious to whatever it is that is arising, much less likely to get lost or confused.

40:22or when I do have that just immediate kind of kindness and rested awareness that receives that. So it disrupts this idea that, you know, I have to go through my day being perfectly mindful, but rather what would it be like to go through my day just like deeply rested and aware of what's here and also taking a spontaneous action to whatever it is that I do see. So no doormat. this is not a doormat practice. It's very active and engaged. But it lets our nervous system know, I don't have to do this. I don't have to be in control. Actually, I'm not anyway. It's kind of an illusion. So it just cuts through that mind illusion and brings your attention to the body.

41:02And it might be a practice to try for some people and it might not resonate with others. Yeah. And we'll give people a menu. But just to stay with this one, there was a metaphor you were using there that's not uncommon in contemplative circles, which is the stage. If you watch a play, there's a stage, and then there are all these actors and the scenery, the set, the props on the stage. We tend to get totally lost in the actors and the dialogue and the scenery and forget that it's all playing out against a backdrop. And when you can get in touch with the backdrop, then you can see, yeah, this is all a play of light and sound.

41:41It's real on some level, but on another level, I don't need to be as fused with it or entangled with it or confused by it. And if I'm hearing you correctly with this practice, you're kind of getting our body to do that work for us. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And then the neat thing is when you do that, then you have more choice and agency on the things that you do want to focus on in that play, You know, and it's like, hey, okay, I've noticed that I'm really noodling on this meeting I had last week and I can't let it go and there's something going on here. I'm going to zoom in on that in meditation practice and really work with what's here and what that brings up for me.

42:21But it's all in the context of being in touch with this background awareness. And so when our nervous systems are settled, we're way more curious about our actual experience and we're way more likely to see clearly. You know, it's kind of common we've all gotten triggered and then totally misperceived, right? And I think of meditation as helping us see where there is misperception and rest more in the clear perception and let that guide our actions and behaviors and how we live into the world. Coming up, Kelly Boyes on how to create and cultivate a reliable inner resource, how to work with opposites as a way to get unstuck, the value of setting intentions and how cheesy it sounds and why we might want to do it anyway, and what she calls the blind spot effect after this.

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45:58A few minutes ago, I interrupted you as you were trying to move on to another practice as we tease out some of the active ingredients of yoga nidra. I apologize again for that interruption. Where were you trying to take us? Well, there are two more. Okay, we'll do one. This relates to the feeling into the backside of your body, and it also relates to the downregulation of your nervous system. And I think it's coming to me to share this because some of these practices aren't necessarily embedded in straight-up mindfulness. And they are in some places, I'm sure Tara Brach works with this, where you create an inner resource.

46:33or a place internally where you feel safe and secure and a sense of well-being. And I mean, I've taught this in prisons and jails and UN humanitarian workers, and it's pretty universal that we all share a need to access quickly a sense of safety and ease in the body so that when we're triggered, we can more quickly downregulate back to kind of like a baseline of ease and well-being. so a practice that you could consider would be you know what memory do I have or you know maybe it's a place in nature it's a place I build in my mind and my imagination that when I'm here I feel truly at ease like I can completely be myself no social face I'm just me and words may come to you like safety and security or it may be just like okayness or peacefulness but that when I have this image and usually one or two images pop up.

47:32I have worked with people where it's been harder and then we have to really ask a lot of questions to get to what would feel like a good image to use. But then you feel the correlate of that in your body, remembering how you felt when you were there. Eventually in time, you let the image go and you just stay with the felt sense of that. And so this is a really important practice as well, because if I can embody this kind of ease and well-being and safety, and I know that it's accessible to me at any moment, then perhaps when I'm facing life's toughest challenges, this might co-arise with the challenge because I've done so much practice.

48:14and that I'm not necessarily faking myself out with it, but my mind doesn't know the difference between when I was in that experience and when I'm bringing it to mind now. And so just the power of being able to connect with the sense of inner resource. And that's a part of the Yoga Nidra training that I did with the iRest method, where they use that. And that's very effective for people like veterans that have PTSD, but really anyone, You know, because we're all going to face life's hardest moments if we haven't already. And this gives a sense of resource and resilience to face what comes. So I'm trying to think about how, well, first of all, just to say that, you know, I mean, the thing that has excited me from day one as I've gotten interested in meditation is the notion that all of these mental states that we want and need to do life better are skills and that you can really get better at them.

49:09And so what you're talking about here is a sense of okayness as a skill so that when things get turbulent, you have the okayness as a refuge. I like that. So I'm just trying to think, how would I practice it? For me, the place where I think okayness is most easily accessed on a day-to-day level is I have a seven-year-old son, homie gives great hugs. So hugging my son feels like, for me, like the epitome of okayness. So if I could just a couple times during the day, or maybe even as a formal part of my meditation practice, conjure that and see how long I can abide in it, then I'm doing what you're describing.

49:53Absolutely. It's a great example. It's a great example. And I would say if you can incorporate it into your meditation practice, and if not, then yeah, a couple times during the day, if we don't return back to it again and again and get that body feeling of it, it won't be as likely to arise when something challenging happens. But when the next challenging thing happens and you go, oh yeah, that's right, my son's hugs, and immediately you have a different felt sense in your body. Now, the work with yoga nidra, you can do opposites. So, you go back to the original trigger, feel that, and then you go back to your son's hug, feel that, and then you kind of go back and forth.

50:34And as you kind of titrate back and forth between the challenge and the resource, then it brings you more back into that quality that we were talking about of the compassionate awareness. You mentioned there was a third practice that we can extract from overall yoga nidra and apply sort of in a free-range context. Yes, opposites. So, that was actually a good segue into it. So, I think it was Jung that said there wouldn't be sadness without happiness, or maybe he said there wouldn't be happiness without sadness. Everything co-arises with an opposite, but what happens is we just get fused with one end of the spectrum.

51:14And so, if I could give a tool around opposites, and this again is going to have a body correlate. So, if you could just consider kind of your left hand and maybe squeezing and releasing your left fist and then feeling any tingly or sensation, whatever's present in your left hand, and then gently bring attention to your right hand, maybe squeezing, releasing your right fist, noticing like all of your attention absorbed in your right hand okay now both simultaneously both hands you've just done kind of an opposites practice so consider doing this with something that you're experiencing during the day so disappointment and you would consider the emotion of disappointment maybe consider your left hand as if you're holding disappointment well what would be in the opposite hand what would be in your right hand if you weren't disappointed what would be there.

52:01And this isn't kind of trying to delete your experience and replace it with a positive one. You're just reminding yourself that there's this whole spectrum of emotion and on the opposite lives something called satisfaction or pleasure or whatever your opposite is. It doesn't have to be the right opposite. And so, if you're experiencing the disappointment and you're kind of stuck in it, you would kind of hold it in your left hand and then consider your right hand holding the opposite of satisfaction. And then do the same thing, go back and forth between the two and then holding them both simultaneously.

52:36And the interesting thing about holding opposites simultaneously is that your mind can't very easily be on two objects at once. So often there can be like a relaxation or even an insight, like a third more true insight, Like, yeah, I'm disappointed and I'm starting to see this other person's perspective or whatever it is. Just kind of helps us get unstuck. It could be with a thought, it could be with an emotion, or it could be just with the palms of your hands. But opposites can be really powerful to help us realize that whatever it is that we're experiencing isn't the only thing going. Yeah, I can see how that would be kryptonite for stuckness.

53:16It could just be a pretty healthy dose of perspective. Yes, inducing cognitive perspective taking. Yes. So we just went through three practices that we can do, but it strikes me that there might possibly be a few more. You talked about a key ingredient of yoga nidra being setting intentions. And now I want to own that for people like me who are incurably skeptical, the term, even just the terminology setting intentions might sound a little, I don't know, twee. But I believe actually there's quite a bit of evidence both in contemplative traditions and and now I'm a little over my skis here, but I think also in the research that setting intentions can actually really be quite helpful.

54:04So what say you about intention setting, even if we take it out of the context of yoga nidra? It's very powerful. I definitely have felt like you, I, the cheese factor, you know, when I think of setting intentions, it's like, you know, for me when I first came to the practice and I actually didn't really do it that much. I just skipped that part of the practice and then I came to see the power of it. So I think what's important about setting intentions is it's kind of building, it's like if you look at it, like you're building self-trust. So set an intention to do this or to practice in a certain way or to be more mindful when I'm talking to my partner or whatever it is.

54:50And then I get to check in with that and see how am I doing, it does set me up for behavior change and for self-awareness. And when I do the thing that I set the intention for, it builds a self-trust loop. Like, oh, okay, I actually set that intention and did it. That means I can do it again. And so I think it could be applied to many different situations. But if you're wondering where to apply the setting of intentions, it would be, what is it that's most important to you? And how can you set intentions around that? Because it's so easy to get distracted these days. And it can really help, especially when you self-critic doesn't check in for you.

55:34But you're just curious, how did that go? I didn't do that at all. Or that intention was actually not really aligned with what I'm wanting. Or I find that I've just ignored my intention because I want to keep doing that thing that is feeling good to me. And so it's just an inquiry, like a lived inquiry that we make. And so I think it would be really powerful to do. I like setting intentions in the morning. I'm a journaler. I got that from the Search Inside Yourself program at Google. That was the first time I journaled. I think that was eight years ago or more. And I've journaled almost every day since then.

56:07And I set intentions. And I better believe that I definitely do more follow through than I would have prior to the setting intentions days for sure. And it can go all the way to setting an intention to inquire into some aspect of meditation that I'm really curious about. Plus wanting you. When I can remember, try to set an intention first thing in the morning. And yeah, it's helpful. It's a North Star. And I might forget to set my intention for weeks. It's always the same intention, just like to do good work and not be an asshole. But I can forget to do it for weeks. I can forget to touch base with it.

56:51But it comes back. And I'm actually thinking about getting it tattooed on my arm because, you know, remembering is the hardest part of this whole thing. Absolutely. I love that. Yeah. And I think what you're speaking to, actually, there is one aspect of the intention setting where you work with what's my heartfelt intention? Like, what is it that's actually going to be kind of my same daily intention for a long period of time? And you might phrase that differently, or it might be just exactly as you phrased it, but that's getting to the core of really what you're here about and your purpose. All of these words wade into a territory that for me, I'm uncomfortable with because they can sound cheesy, but I feel like they're so powerful in the application.

57:31So I'm a convert to setting intentions for sure as well. One of the chapters in this book that I've been writing is called Embrace the Cheese. I love it.

57:42I look forward to reading that. I look forward to being done with it. Speaking of books, you wrote a book called The Blind Spot Effect. What do you mean by that term and how does it relate to everything we've been talking about today? Yeah, I think of the term as kind of the impact of these unconscious impulses that we have that are related to core beliefs that we're holding or attendant emotions that are driving us unconsciously. And that make kind of messes in our lives where we're kind of living out these patterns that we don't even consciously see. Other people around us can see or maybe we see some of the effect, but we don't quite know the core.

58:19and so I do think it relates to yoga nidra and the practice of meditation what we're talking about today because for me meditation is being able to kind of illuminate where we're misperceiving and as we do so we can kind of integrate these different impulses and beliefs and core ways of holding the world together that weren't totally true. As we do that, we get more whole. And I think that matters for how we are in the world. And there's, I don't have to tell you, you know, there's so much happening in the world right now that the invitation for us would be to get out of our own way more and more.

59:05And so, the blind spot effect is exploring, how can I get out of my own way? You know, how am I in my way that I don't even see and know? I wrote it because I I was uncovering my own and I feel like it's been a helpful process for me. So I wrote a book with being able to look at some of these emotions and beliefs and the core blind spot of me at the center of my world. That's the core one that if you hack that one, then, you know, it kind of filters up. And yet, as we discussed earlier, you can hack that core belief, but it needs a lot of integration. It can be confusing, scary. Absolutely. Yeah.

59:36I have often talked about being a 14-year-old kid having just smoked a joint and the bleachers of Newton South High School freshman basketball game and realizing that the self is an illusion and it being distinctly uncomfortable. So ease into this stuff, people. Yeah, absolutely. So there you go. I think it's beautiful. You know, when you look back on that moment, probably it was so uncomfortable at the time. But how amazing that that was elicited in you. and where you are now. I think it's amazing. Yes, but now my brain has gotten very good at panic, unfortunately, so there's that to deal with.

1:00:14In any event, I want to get to a phrase that you've used a lot in the course of this conversation and see if there's a practice that you can recommend for us, even if we're not going to do Yoga Nidra. Just to say, before I let you go, we're going to go through in detail ways for people to access yoga nidra practices from you and others. But just say somebody's listening to this and, you know, they either don't have time for it or they, you know, they want to get a little taste of it right now before they go explore it or they know they're never going to explore it, whatever. You've talked a lot in this conversation about core beliefs.

1:00:50I might have just articulated one when I said my brain is very good to panic, right? So that's maybe one of my core beliefs that could be limiting or could be a blind spot for me. Do you have any thoughts on how we can work with these core beliefs as they float up through our mind through the day? Absolutely. Yeah, I have a chapter or two in my book about some ways to do it, but I would say it's similar to what we described where when you hear yourself kind of saying some of the similar things again and again, and as you said, you were kind of catching yourself going, oh, my brain's really good at panic.

1:01:27And then you might inquire, how is that related back to a core belief I might be holding to be true about myself, about who I am? And notice throughout the day, what are the other kind of beliefs or thoughts that you have that seem to have a signature to them of, well, who knows what it is in your case, but of something that kind of leads itself back to a core belief that says, I am this, or I'm not this, or I need this, I'm not that. And the way to work with it is gently to inquire what feels most salient, most true when I believe it. So, if it's something like, I use mine, there's some way that in a core way, and I don't always feel this, I don't feel this right now, but I can feel this way.

1:02:16So, that's another key, is it's not that you always feel it, but that when you believe it, it's very believable. So for me is I'm not safe. I'm not safe, going back to the mosquito in the cabin. And what you want to do is get to the core. So say it in one sentence if you can, and then start to welcome it in just as you would anything else in meditation and emotion, whatever is present, the movement of the breath. So, oh, there's this thing here. It's I'm not safe. And if I do that parts practice, what'd she say? Oh yeah, she said like, open the door and see what comes in. Okay. If I open the door and see what comes in, it's myself at this age that felt this way.

1:02:53And then I just do that same practice where I'm encountering this core belief. But the key with that is it usually has a message. And so you want to ask, what is it that you want? What is it that you need? And is there an action I can take to give you what you need? So you're really interacting with this personified core belief in a way that is getting to the root of the misperception. in the belief. And so you don't just go to the opposite. I'm safe everywhere. That's not true. I won't be able to believe that. But, oh, maybe mine is I'm safe with myself. And I start to discover, oh, okay, when I feel unsafe, that's a message for me to know I'm safe with myself and to welcome this part in more.

1:03:36It's a little tricky. Our core beliefs can kind of hide. They usually have to do with lack or deficiency, one or the other, sometimes both. And when we're able to name them and welcome them and then really get them messages and interact with them, they become these allies. So that would be what I would say. Kind of overhear yourself as you go throughout the day. What are the ways that you express about yourself that might be related to a core belief? And it could be helpful to have people in your life who are willing to point that out. I remember being in a one-on-one session. For many years, I went through it.

1:04:09I was a volunteer in a hospice, and it was part of a Zen program. And I was having a one-on-one session with one of the teachers, a guy who's been on the show many times, Koshin Paley Ellison. And he asked me a question about why I had done something. And I just said, because I'm an asshole. And he said, that's shtick. And I was like, oh yeah. And then I've had other people point out, like you rely on that. You know, my wife will point out that I often make a joke when she complains about my behavior. I'll say, I can't help it, I'm a bad person. Which, you know, is like me making a joke and trying to deflect.

1:04:43But it is actually something, a story that I was telling myself. And having that pointed out to me led me to interrogate it. And clearly, I mean, yes, I have the capacity to be a schmuck, but it's not always true. And so I can see through the lie as soon as I interrogate it. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, that's a great example. And then going, where did I first pick that up? And is that internalized voice from someone else? Or did I just do that as a defense? Like you say, you start to do all of that inquiry. And then you get more clear on where it's coming from and on what message and how it can be an ally.

1:05:22So it's like, oh, when I do that thing, this is actually what I'm wanting or feeling underneath. And as I get in touch with that, then that action that I take out of that insight can change things. Yes, the brain, as Dr. Judson Brewer points out all the time, is a pleasure-seeking machine. So if we're doing something, our brain thinks we're getting a benefit out of it. It serves some purpose. So, you know, the brain is not always right. In other words, you might be doing something that feels pleasurable to your brain in some twisted way, but it's actually totally stupid. But it's worth interrogating it so you can be less stupid.

1:06:00I love that. Can you hold forth on, for those who are interested in Yoga Nidra, how we can access it? And please start with your resources that you've put out into the world. Sure. So I have a YouTube page that has some guided yoga nidra practices on it that are audio. And I also teach a class every week through the Alembic in Berkeley, and it's online. And so then those classes are put onto my YouTube page as well. So every single week, there's a new video of me doing a teaching and then a yoga nidra practice. I'm also on a bunch of apps in the Oura Ring and I think people are falling asleep to my voice in a lot of different places with the Yoga Nidra.

1:06:42And yeah, there are other resources so you can check out. As I mentioned, I had worked previously with the Irest Institute and one of the teachers there I would recommend is Fuyuko Sawamura Toyota. It's quite amazing. And then there are other teachers out there that teach Yoga Nidra that Kamini Desai is a woman in the States, Ann Douglas in Canada, James Reeves in the UK. So these are some names of people I recommend. But also I would say, you know, just get into it and see what voice resonates with you and the style. And there's plenty to be found out there for sure. We will put the links in the show notes, everybody, so you don't have to have your pen out, especially if you're driving.

1:07:19Kelly, thank you very much. Really appreciate it. Thank you. It's really nice to be here with you.

1:07:27Thanks again to Kelly, boys. Since this episode originally aired back in 2022, Kelly has partnered with Professor John Cow at Yale to create deep rest practices for his creativity class. She also co-designed a mindfulness and stoicism program with a few former congresspeople and delivered it to public employees in New York. And Kelly is going to break down the science for better sleep and rest in her upcoming book, which is called Deep Rest. And that will be out in 2027. You can find much more on all things Kelly Boys at KellyBoys.org. Finally, thank you to everybody who worked so hard to make this show.

1:08:07Our producers are Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasily. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Kashmir is our executive producer, and Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.