Think You Suck at Meditation? This Conversation Could Help. | Ofosu Jones-Quartey

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32:08There are also these three marks of existence in the classical Buddhist parlance, meaning there are these three non-negotiable aspects of reality that you can see quite clearly in a practice like this. One is impermanence. Everything changes all the time. You were referencing that. And that can be terrifying, but also liberating because all of the stuff that's dogging you is just coming and going. The second is suffering, which is, sounds a little bit more dire or dour than it is. It's just that if you're clinging to things in a universe characterized by impermanence, you're going to suffer. And so you can see how a pleasant state arises and you're clinging to it and it goes away and you suffer.

32:57And so you can watch that in an open awareness meditation or really, honestly, almost any kind of meditation, You're watching the mind. You can see this. And the third, which is directly pointed at through the phrase, this is nature, is what is often called not self or emptiness, which essentially just means there's nothing in your mind that you can claim as yours. It feels like it's yours, but as you examine it, you realize that claiming it as yours is, in the words of one great monk, a misappropriation of public property. There is all just nature. It's all just the universe playing itself out.

33:37And that sounds trippy or weird, but it's actually really comforting that once you see your emotions as passing meteorological phenomena, then you can work with them and not be so caught up in them. Yes. Things stop being so life or death. And the feeling that the way life is, is somehow a personal attack or affront on me or you, that begins to dissipate. The five remembrances that the Buddha talks about, that we are all of the nature to be impermanent, the nature to grow old, the nature to experience illness, the nature to die, and the inheritors of our actions. pieces of that or all of that can be seen in an open practice and it's not about taking anything on or believing anything but kind of making peace with how things are and that peacefulness is something that we can carry into our relationships for instance like yesterday i was feeling really good, which is not always the case.

35:00And I found myself like starting to worry like, oh man, you know, how long is this good feeling going to last? And resting back in the openness that I've been working to make a relationship with, you know, I kind of was able to say, you know, it's here right now and that's enough. And I really have no idea what's going to happen next. And then giving myself that space of like, I don't have to cling to this good feeling. I don't know what's going to happen next, but I know it'll change. I feel like it gave my sense of well-being a little bit longer lifespan because I wasn't trying to hold on to it or push it away or worry about it.

35:44Just like kind of letting it be and letting the mystery of life just be a mystery. You know, yeah. In my experience, being mindful of something, being mindfully aware, meaning I'm seeing it clearly. I'm not trying to cling to it. I'm not trying to push it away. I have a sense of warm curiosity about it. There's no suffering in those moments. You can be mindfully aware of something deeply unpleasant. I'm not saying I can always do it. If I'm in a panic attack, that's very hard for me to muster mindfulness. But when I'm mindful, or actually, one of the things I often say to myself when I'm on retreat is if I'm suffering in any way, it just means there's something I'm not being mindful of.

36:37And to me, that's one of the benefits and beauties of open awareness practices. Every time you wake up and start being mindful again, it's like you're the suffering goes away. Yeah. You realize that the edges that you have are imaginary. The resistance that you have, you can go right up to the edge of that resistance and just rest there. And then in my experience, it fades. And my capacity to be with reality as it is, not how I want it to be, not how it just was, but just as it is, it opens. The horizon extends. and it's not this kind of like super blissful experience. It really just feels more open and more peaceful.

37:27I think a part of maybe how greed, hatred, and delusion manifest in our experience is in trying to forecast how things are going to be or plan. And obviously this is built into our evolution, you know, all of that. but life really is. When you think of like impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, non-self, I mean, to me, that says that life is a fucking mystery. And to the extent that we can be at peace with the mystery is the extent that we are going to have a better time in it. And I feel like this practice gives us an opportunity to witness the mystery unfold in real time and to learn how to make peace with it.

38:18I believe the word that Buddhists use to describe what you are describing or to capture what you're describing is equanimity. It's like, can you have a generalized okayness with whatever is happening? Yeah. And I think there's a misinterpretation that we have to be even keeled in an otherwise topsy-turvy world. And I don't think that's what equanimity is asking us. No. Yes, I agree. It is to allow our peace to match the dynamism of life. It's like, okay, now, okay, well, this is really great. Okay, it can be great. I just know that greatness isn't forever, but I can embrace the greatness for as long as it is.

39:06I've been reading Everyday Zen by Charlotte Joko Beck, and she's been talking about two ways that we can suffer. either like skillfully or unskillfully. And in the skillful model, we actually just embrace and become fully aware and fully enmeshed with the experience of suffering so that there's an intimate relationship with it. And then it passes, then it changes. And we haven't made anybody else suffer more because of it. We haven't infiltrated it with our own ideas. We just say, okay, this sucks and I'm with it. And then, then it changes and then it's like, Oh, okay. Yeah, that's right. It always changes.

39:52And, you know, unpleasant experiences are just a part of the game, but we can make them so much more unpleasant when we start adding all of our stuff. So let me see if I can tie a bow around at least this part of the conversation, And open awareness practice or choiceless awareness practice is where you sit and just try to be as mindful as you can with whatever's happening. Of course, you're going to get distracted. And that's cool. You can just, when you wake up, start again. And if you wake up with a big blast of self-directed judgment, you can just make a little mental note of judgment. And speaking of notes, like that's a little mental noting is a way to keep yourself in the game.

40:32You could also start with what's often referred to as classical concentration practices like loving kindness or focusing on the breath and then open up to open awareness. The use case here is if you've got a solid meditation practice, this is one way to diversify it. Or if like a FOSU, you find that you've been actually really struggling with trying to grit your teeth, bear down and do breath based or loving kindness meditation because, you know, it's quite restrictive on the mind. Well, then this is an option that might be a useful lowering of the bar. Exactly. I love Buddhism. I love the practice of meditation.

41:18I so wanted to continue my practice, but my practice was so uncomfortable. And when I say my practice was hell, I really do mean it. Like sitting and just the entire session, I would still learn. I'd learn a lot, you know, but I would just have the worst time. I didn't want to give up on my practice. And so for me, this approach was really a lifeline to staying in the game. It's made me love meditating. I'll say that because I walk past the cushion and be like, okay, here we go. It's time. It's time to go back into the depths. But now it's time to just sit and be open and just have a relationship with the mystery.

42:05something that I am kind of intuiting in this practice is that there actually isn't that much to do this reflection that this is nature in my approach to this practice I'm coming to terms with that more and more and just allowing nature to be nature instead of yeah filling it with my own ideas and then chasing after those ideas, et cetera. So there's a sense that the Mahayana tradition talks about that we are already perfect and we're just not seeing it or relating to ourselves and the universe and reality in a skillful or yeah, in the proper way, so to speak. This approach to practice has made me realize that I don't have to put some massive goal of achieving deep states of concentration or becoming like a superheroic meditator.

43:08I can sit and just let everything be and that's enough. And there's actually something miraculous and beautiful in bearing witness to all of that. A couple of phrases that came to mind as you were talking. These are phrases that I've heard elsewhere and I don't remember who I heard them from, but occasionally I will remember to say them to myself in open awareness practice. One is nothing to do, nowhere to go. It's already here. Meaning that your awareness is already here. The point of practice is already here. Often it's papered over by, you know, planning a homicide or wondering about what's for lunch or whatever.

43:49But this ability to just be aware in a raw, bare way of whatever's happening in the mind, in the body, in the space around you, it's already here. There's nothing you have to go do. You just got to let go. And then the other phrase is you don't have to chase the Dharma. The Dharma is chasing you. Absolutely love that. I have not heard that second one. Yeah. I mean, I was so rabidly chasing the Dharma and there's just no need to do that. It is this very moment. There's so much beauty, so much mystery, so much truth. Maybe beauty and mystery aren't always available to our perception, but the truth, the raw truth, which can give way to beauty and mystery is always right here.

44:46Yeah, that phrase, nowhere to go, nothing to do, this is it. Yeah. Going back to the beginning of the conversation, I was saying how when Eleanor, who's producing this episode, asked you what you wanted to talk about, he said self-compassion and open awareness. And to me, and you just tell me if you think I have got this right. There is a self-compassion in this lowering of the bar for meditation. It's baked right into this entire approach. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think there's so much in the culture of meditation and mindfulness, both the ancient culture and the modern culture that suggests that we have to be overachievers.

45:37it's another thing for us to become experts at, to become masters at, to get straight A's, to get a PhD in, you know, whether it is the stories of great masters who have accomplished these incredible feats of mind and heart, or whether it's maintaining your streak on a meditation app, there's still this, I think, a pervasive, maybe misinterpretation of what we're actually up to here. And that, you know, if I do a hundred days, which is great, I'm not, please do a hundred, do a thousand days. But the attitude that comes with it, I think, can end up being another stick that we end up whacking ourselves with, or another measuring tool that we feel that we're falling short.

46:33I hear it all the time. I don't do it enough, or I can't do it, or I just don't think that my mind is capable or all that. And with a practice like this, it's like, no, just have a seat and let yourself be. We can just take a few breaths or just notice how the body's feeling, notice what sounds are there, give yourself some space to settle. And then you actually don't have to do anything at all, but be present for your life in this moment. So I'm navigating this neurodivergent mental health condition that I have, that not necessarily everybody else has, but I have heard anecdotally that folks deal with the same thing that I'm about to mention.

47:17I set up my meditation session to last 15, 30 minutes, whatever. And then the goal is just to have the best 15, 30 minutes I could possibly have mentally, emotionally, spiritually, whatever. Like, let's just carve out this perfect 30. And God forbid I have a negative thought, or in my case, I have a barrage of really crazy, unpleasant, intrusive thoughts. Oh, and what if you have a bad thought right before the bell? Oh, then the whole thing is just, it's a failure. And in this practice, I've been seeing that every moment is complete, whether it was great, whether it sucked, you know, it came and went.

48:02I don't have to judge my life by, did I accomplish a great slice of time? Or was I the most optimal for this window of time? Every moment is complete. It's all coming and going. So then the pressure lowers and counterintuitively the length of time I spend just feeling a little bit more chill, you know, extends. So yeah, I do think that in lowering the bar, we do ourselves a great kindness and there's a lot of wisdom that's available to us there when we're not pressing ourselves so hard. Yeah. It's this strange paradox of meditation, which is, I often describe it as a fucked up video game where you can't move forward if you want to move forward.

48:53So it's something about like the necessity of surrender or dropping your expectations. Or another thing I often say is meditation is where perfectionism comes to die. Oh man. Yeah. Or another little saying that's on the wall at the insight meditation society where you and I have both done retreats and you've taught retreats, stop expecting, and then the whole practice will unfurl for you. Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. I think the whole of the Buddha's diagnosis and prescription for life is so counterintuitive. And the fact that it appears so deeply counterintuitive to us or to me is evidence of the condition that many of us find ourselves in, the unenlightened condition that we can't immediately see that what we habitually go to for happiness ends up disappointing us.

49:52That chasing after things or harshly rejecting things or just trying to pretend like something's not happening doesn't give us a joyful relationship with reality. I love that video game analogy. It's like, if you want to move forward, you have to stop. Yeah. And I know that can sound frustrating to people, but it just means like, can you be okay with whatever's happening right now, instead of leaning into the next moment or trying to achieve something or expecting a certain outcome. The point is not to feel a certain way. It's to feel whatever you're feeling clearly so that your feelings generally don't own you as much.

50:36I mean, simple, but not easy. Simple, but not easy. Something that I think I'm noticing is how much I have believed that my thoughts and feelings are my only reality. But as I engage with this practice more, the quality of awareness, which is, in my experience, peaceful, vast, stable, underlies the tumult of my joys and sorrows. And it's another quality that is a part of me. You know, me in air quotes. So it's not just my thoughts and feelings, but I can actually have, there's actually a deep source of peace and stability underneath all of it. And that quality of awareness comes to the fore, you know, more and more in my life as I engage with this practice.

51:42Yeah. I mean, just to put, see if I can, again, I'm always trying to identify or get myself into the minds of anybody listening who might be struggling in some way to understand this. But yeah, we all know we have thoughts and that we have sensations. We hear stuff, we see stuff, we taste stuff. We all know we have emotions, but we're so caught up in all of the thoughts and urges and emotions and sensations that we rarely turn around to look at like, what is knowing all of this? and there's a vast reservoir of equanimity and peace to be had and just realizing that there's something mysterious that is aware of the sound of my voice right now of whatever sensations are happening in your body right now and just check that out yeah as the buddhists often say, the not finding, because you won't find anything.

52:38The not finding is the finding. That's the point. Yes. Yeah. Bingo. Coming up, Afosu talks about the relationship between neurodiversity and meditation, how to not take your suffering so seriously or personally, the practice self-assessment tapes that we all run in our mind about our meditation practice. And we also hear some of Afosu's music and talk about the life experiences that inspired it.

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55:46and then get you to kind of unpack it on the other side. Wrote a hundred rounds like a hundred times Blew a hundred lines like a hundred times Listen for the sniff, I ain't hard to find Walking in the dark, I was colorblind I lived a hundred lives like a hundred times For every pot of gold, I found a way to undermine Almost lost my wife like a hundred times What do you see in me? She told me love is blind Hundred hours of meditation like a hundred times I must have cried at least a hundred thousand times Attempted suicide a couple times Saved by the power with understanding and love combined All the shit I did to numb my mind So many bottles, vampires, and my blood was wine Or rather Tito's, shout out to my amigos who took the nine For coming in and clutch like a hundred times Call my therapist, discussion time Turns out the pain that I was holding really wasn't mine Still I had to heal from it for the hundredth time Underlying fear turned to thoughts and become the mind From Noah's Ark to Napoleon Bonaparte I was blown apart, a hero in disguise like I'm Joan of Arc I know the feeling when it's cold and dark Spiritual surgery prefer me with an open heart

56:54I mean, that's, first of all, I wouldn't call myself an expert in rap history, but I've listened to no small amount of hip hop in my life, dating back to when I was a young boy. And I don't think it's super common for rappers to be as open as you are and, you know, numbing your mind. And so if you're comfortable saying more about your life experiences in this regard, I'd be interested in hearing it. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, I appreciate you playing the song. I was really, what's the word? I was proud of myself when I put that verse together because I think it really captured a lot of what my life had been like up to that point.

57:44So that song is about a year or so, a year, maybe two years old now. I referenced that song in the opening of the book because it is kind of like a thesis statement for how things had been going for me in my life. And going for 20 plus years with a really difficult undiagnosed mental health condition, thinking that it meant that I was a bad meditator, that I was a bad person, having terrible intrusive thoughts, terrible anxiety, and being confused about what all of that meant and having a lot of self-hatred around that and trying to meditate my way out of it only and not seeking some additional help for it.

58:30While seeking additional help from unreliable sources like, you know, drug dealers and liquor stores and the implications that that had on my relationship, on my relationships, on, you know, in deteriorating my mental health, etc. I fell into being a Dharma teacher really by accident, but it's been many years now that I've occasionally held the teacher's seat. And I wanted my lives to not be so separate, my music life, my practice life, my artist life, my teaching life. So I've been working on just making everything a part of the flow of one expression. And as a teacher, I don't want to sit in front of people and pretend that I am some super realized person or that my life is this super clean story.

59:26I'd rather speak from a place of someone who's suffered quite deeply in ways that were out of my control and in ways that I exacerbated through my own actions. and if my practice and my art are going to be the same, then I have to do the same in my art and speak from what's real. I think hip-hop tends to speak to a lot of pain and I think more and more people are speaking to the pain that they personally experience. But I think hip-hop also, the type of hip-hop that is championed or that is mainstream is usually talking about the ways in which people are trying to hide from their pain through sex, through drugs, through materialism, through violence.

1:00:11And I'm interested in what's the root, what's the root of our suffering? And can we talk about that so that we can become more liberated from it? You mentioned on a TikTok that your mom was like, hey, why do you have to mention this unpleasant part of your own history? You know, wouldn't you want to keep that private? it. And you said that, you know, you can't make connections with people. If you're hiding parts of yourself, people will make a connection with you if you can be real with them. And when I saw that, I was like, okay, that actually gave me a lot of confidence while I was writing this book.

1:00:48Cause there were some chapters I was like, oh my God, my mother is going to read this. My kids are going to read this eventually. And like, oh, should I do this? Should I say this? I'm like, man, there are so many people who could either relate or who I know for a fact, you know, have had similar experiences that perhaps this could be helpful. And for me, it's my way of saying that these stories don't have control over me anymore. You know, they are now the mud from which a lotus is beginning to arise, you know. So, so I'll pause there. Well, I think it's awesome you're doing it. I think your kids will thank you for it eventually.

1:01:28Thank you. There's a line in here that might be worth dwelling on just because it definitely rhymes with what we were talking about earlier about not self or impersonality. Call my therapist, discussion time. Turns out the pain I was holding really wasn't mine. Yes. Okay. Yeah. And that was a line I was like, oh man, you wrote something cool. I was talking with a monk named Brother Phap Lin at Plum Village Monastery when I was there about a year ago. And I had asked him, do people who have mental health conditions or mental illness or neurodiversity, can they achieve enlightenment? And I loved his answer.

1:02:09He said, I don't know, which is always a great answer. He said, I don't know, but I think the question you're asking is too small. So I think you have to go big or go home. Consider the type of suffering that you're experiencing and consider all the beings who have experienced a similar type of suffering from the beginning of time, or at least the beginning of humanity up until now. Now consider all of the people who are dealing with that type of suffering around the world right now, and now consider everyone who might experience or who definitely will experience some form of this type of suffering in the future, how does that make you feel?

1:02:52And I said, well, it makes this experience that I'm having feel less personal. And he was like, yeah, you know, suffering sort of moves through each of us in this kind It's kind of like a wave that moves through the human condition that we each can do something about, but we don't own it. We didn't curse ourselves. It's not ours. It's not personal. It's a part of the relationship that we have with reality. It's also deeply a part of our conditioning, who our parents were, who their parents were, where we grew up, what gender we were born in, what gender we identify with, what our skin color, all these different factors.

1:03:38None of it really belongs to us. And so if we can depersonalize our experience of suffering, we can start to be liberated from it. So the line says, call my therapist, discussion time. Turns out the pain that I was holding really wasn't mine. Still, I had to heal from it for the hundredth time because underlying fears turn to thoughts and become the mind. So even though it's impersonal, we still have a responsibility to take care of ourselves and make even a small pivot towards something more liberated if we can. There's a quote you use that really lands for me. I don't know who said it, you'll tell me, but here it is.

1:04:18If we don't transform pain, we will transmit this. Yes. Yeah. And the name of this teacher escapes me also. Maybe I'll find it and we can maybe put it in the show notes if it feels good to do that. But I know I referenced it in the book. And it's just one of those things. It's like, no, the trauma you experienced was not your fault. But it is your responsibility to do your best not to re-traumatize yourself or other people around you, especially if you can remember how much it sucked to experience that trauma. Do your best to not wreak havoc on others. And it's so hard to do that no matter what, whether you have a practice or not.

1:05:07But if you don't have a practice that puts you in touch with the felt sense of your own experience, it's hard not to transmit your trauma to somebody else. That quote is often attributed to Richard Rohr. That's right. Yes. Yeah. I mean, it's a kind of a cousin of the cliche that hurt people hurt people. Hurt people, yeah. I know from my own experience that I've been the hurt person hurting others. And I've been on the receiving end of a hurt person's hurtful actions. I can see in the arc of my life, I was reading something. Frank Ocean, the artist, the singer Frank Ocean, had written a letter to himself, to his five years younger self.

1:05:58And he was writing about all the experiences that he had just been through over the last five years, but telling his younger self not to give up because he's on a plane right now to go into the studio with some major artists and everything is going to work out. I was talking with a nun, a Tibetan nun at the Hospital for Sick Children in Canada. and she was talking about, you know, you don't really know how much you've changed until you look back at the last five years. Like we might be judging ourselves like, okay, I'm not as good as I was yesterday or last month. But like, if you really want to see if your life is bending towards something, just think about where you were five years ago.

1:06:39So thinking about where I was five years ago. Wow. Very different trajectory and even 10 years ago, et cetera. So I do feel like my practice is bending the arc of my life in the direction that feels healthy and that feels good and more healed, but it takes time. So I'm just trying to write about that and just, I don't think I could write about it if I wasn't in a better place. And so that's another part of the celebration of this book and the accompanying album coming into the world. I mean, you're, you're pointing at something I think that will resonate with a lot of people, which is we, I think Joseph, the aforementioned Joseph Goldstein often refers to them as the practice self-assessment tapes that we run in our mind.

1:07:26Like, how am I doing? Am I good? Am I, am I doing this right? Am I doing it better than I was doing six months ago? Is any of this making any fucking difference, et cetera, et cetera. When actually you want to take the long view. The Dalai Lama has talked about this too. Are you losing your temper? Did you used to lose your temper 10 times a day? And is it now three or even seven? That's improvement. And it's meaningful improvement. It's not nothing. It's not nothing. Yes. That incremental self-assessment tape, it's a part of it, but it shouldn't drive us. It shouldn't make us suffer. I think the incremental self-assessment tape can be repackaged or re-approached as a simple mindfulness practice.

1:08:13Like how's my state of mind right now? How are my actions right now? And then say you make a mistake, say you do get angry or you do have an outburst or you do have a relapse or you do have, you know, whatever. Say you stumble really hard. How many times have you stumbled in the last five years. Are you one perpetual stumble or is this kind of more of an anomaly? Is this the exception and no longer the rule? And I'm finding that for me, more and more certain things that just even my relationship with my kids, you know, stuff that I didn't have patience for. I've got a little bit more patience and that little bit more patience makes a big deal.

1:08:56Yeah, so it's those small victories and taking the long view can be another important self-compassion practice. Yes, yes. Do you think your improvements are from your practice alone or from your practice plus having finally been diagnosed with OCD and getting treated for it? Oh, I think that it's all practice. what I did, what I, what I used to have a much more narrow view of practice, which, which was like practice means meditation and reading Dharma books and having Dharma conversations and doing walking meditation and, you know, going on retreat that's practice. But, you know, practice is really taking care of your life, being aware in my children's book.

1:09:41I say that mindfulness is a way to be aware and to care and it's knowing what's happening in your life. And then, and then doing the skillful, having a skillful response to it. So knowing that I was suffering deeply, the skillful, compassionate response, which is born out of practice is to get some extra help. So I think that having expanded my view of what practice is made it okay for me to get additional mental health support. And all of that has made my life a lot more manageable. Yeah, I'm just feeling happier, definitely. I'm definitely feeling better. And there is trepidation, like, am I allowed to say that?

1:10:28I think it's A, much cooler to be like, I'm fucking suffering. and B, I don't want someone to, I don't want to invite disaster by saying I'm doing, but I have no idea what the future is going to hold. In this moment, I'm feeling grateful for being alive and for having a practice and that's enough. I love to hear it. Two questions I ask at the end of interviews. One is, is there something you were hoping we would get to that we didn't? Oh, this was such a great conversation. Only that, I guess one thing that I'd like to let folks know is that my, I guess my book, Lyrical Dharma, is out. And I also released an album right next to the book.

1:11:14It's called Como Rebbe. And I am very proud of that album. And there are songs from that album that are in the book and songs from my previous two albums that are in the book. So if you go to borneimusic.com slash lyricaldharma, all of the songs that are in the book in the order that they appear in the book will be in that playlist. So enjoy. It's funny. You answered the second question when I asked the first, because the second question was going to be, can you just remind us of the name of your book and other stuff? But it sounds like the answer is the new book, which I will have mentioned early, early, early on is lyricaldharma.

1:11:52and there's an album that comes with it. And if you want more information, borneymusic.com. Yes, perfect. If you, dear listener, do not have a pen in your hand, all that information will be in the show notes. So come back to it at your leisure. Oh, one last thing. Tying a bow on what I'm always wanting to share is that life is strange and mysterious. You didn't make it strange and mysterious and you didn't make it challenging. Now we can all make it more challenging, but it's not your fault that life is weird and difficult. And as far as I can remember, nobody really signed up for this. We all just sort of emerged in the space and we got to deal with it.

1:12:35And that's not your fault. So be nice to yourself. Just cool it down. We're all going to die. So while we're here, let's just try to keep it chill. Be aware. Take care of your life. Be kind to yourself. Yeah. That's the main thing I always want to leave people with is just that. A big, big plus one to that. I like that. It's also really helpful to just hear you say it. On the promotional tip, I do want to say one other thing that Fosu is doing is with me. Yeah. He's going to be part of the meditation party retreat that I will be co-hosting with Sabine Selassie and Jeff Warren in October at the Omega Institute in upstate New York.

1:13:28You can get more information by checking out eomega.com or eomega.org, I think. Anyway, I'll put a link to that in the show notes and of those who's going to be there. And so come say hi. It's going to be awesome. Yeah, I can't wait. I'll play some songs, share some thoughts about the book, and I'm happy to be a part of the retreat. Thank you for doing this, but great to see you, as always. Yeah, always, always. Thank you, Dan.

1:14:01I just want to remind you of a couple things before I let you go. So first, Afosu is going to be part of the meditation party retreat that we're doing at the end of October, October 24th through 26th at Omega Institute, which is in Rhinebeck, New York. And we'll be doing that with Jeff Warren, Seven A. Salasi. It's going to be great. You should come. We call it meditation party because we do a lot of meditating, but we also hang out, socialize, eat good food, et cetera, et cetera. I'll put a link in the show notes. Also, as I mentioned, we've got a guided meditation that comes with this episode.

1:14:31Kyra Jewel Lingo is going to teach you how to do open awareness or choiceless awareness meditation. If you want to access that guided meditation, you got to sign up at danharris.com. When you sign up, you'll get all of our past and future guided meditations. We are now, as part of our workflow here, going to be releasing guided meditations for all of our Monday, Wednesday episodes so that you can pound the wisdom from the show into your neurons, as I like to say. And if you sign up, you'll also get live guided meditation sessions with me on video several times a month. I do these live video sessions where I guide a meditation and then I take your questions.

1:15:08The next one is coming up tomorrow at 4 Eastern, as a matter of fact. So sign up at danharris.com. Finally, thank you very much to everybody who worked so hard to make this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan, and Eleanor Vasili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Kashmir is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.

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1:16:54Thank you.