When Life's Not Working, Don't Try Harder. Change Your Situation Instead. | Angela Duckworth

27:12Angela Duckworth:And sure enough, drink will follow you too. You will find it. I believe that the person, places, and things advice that you should think about the persons, the people around you, the things that are around you, the places that you live, you know, I would say that it may not be a magic cure, but I think living in a dry town like Ocean City, New Jersey, certainly tips the scales in your behavior. There is actually research that Wendy Wood, who is, I always think of her as the queen bee of habit research. So in the academic community, Wendy Wood is, you know, the pioneer in the research on habit.

27:53Angela Duckworth:It was, you know, her study that's widely quoted that nearly half of human behavior is habitual. So she has studied addiction and good habits also. And she points out that even living closer to a store that sells alcohol in a liquor store, like that's a risk factor for developing alcoholism. So absolutely, it's not a magic wand. I do think you have to resolve your own problems, but why not make things as easy as possible, live where things are going to be easier, put objects around you that are less tempting in ways that you're going to regret, and absolutely the people around you. When I got into the research on Alcoholics Anonymous, because I think, Dan, that there is no more psychologically wise organization in humanity's history than Alcoholics Anonymous.

28:51Angela Duckworth:I got curious about what the scientific research said. I mean, how can it be that a circle of folding chairs in a church basement is like the most effective and enduring cure or treatment for alcoholism? I found my way to Harvard Medical School, where a lot of this research has taken place. And one of the findings is that what happens when you join Alcoholics Anonymous is that you replace your peer group. Your peer group may have been other people who are drinking the way you've been drinking. And with the introduction of this entirely new social network into your life, you have people around you who know exactly what it is like to suffer as you've been suffering, but are on a journey.

29:36Angela Duckworth:And they ask you to join them if you would like. And so that is, again, a way of replacing the people who will, you know, tell you more about how they've replaced the things and how they've gone to new places. So people, places, and things, I think, would not have been a terrible title for the book. Not at all. And just to pick up on the people part of it, you know, I often say that life is better in the carpool lane. And I believe, and you'll correct me if I'm wrong, that that's an evidence-based assertion. What we know about the quality of a human life is that, based on the Harvard study for adult development and other studies, is that it is largely determined by the quality of your relationships, not only the quality of your life, but the length of your life.

30:18And then further, just on habit change or general human behavior change writ large, I guess the term of art, and again, you'll correct me, is social support. The people doing it with other people who share your goals and values is immensely powerful. So AA is tapping into both of these things.

30:39Angela Duckworth:You are on firm ground, Dan. And, you know, whatever terms you want to pull out, social support is actually, I think, very often how scientists refer to a life where, you know, it's not you as some individual who is trying to like solve every problem that you as an individual have. But you have this, you know, paradigm shift where you don't think of like Dan Harris Dan Harris in relation to these other things, but like Dan Harris as part of something larger than Dan Harris. So you're part of an organism. You're part of a family. You're part of a team and you do your part. So hopefully you do everything you can do to advance the goals that are important, but you're no longer thinking of yourself in isolation.

31:27Angela Duckworth:And you're also on firm ground, Dan, to talk about the power of relationships to improve your life. And I think the Harvard study, which is, you know, very important, has made a lot of contributions to that finding or that conclusion. I want to mention a more recent study, which is that when you look at how people spend time in America, and much of this research has been done by scientists who didn't start this survey, but who just use the data from the American Time Use Survey. One of the findings from Dunnigan Folk, who is a postdoc in my lab, but he did this research prior to joining me, is that you can code what everyone is doing on any kind of dimension.

32:06Angela Duckworth:You know, are they eating? Are they resting? Are they playing a game? Are they watching something? You know, whatever it is that you want to ask the Americans what they're doing. Like, whatever it is, they're happier if they're with another person. Whatever it is, all functions of life. And so what that suggests is that life is better in the carpool lane. And the reason why I think that's not an obvious observation is that we are spending less time in the carpool lane. If you ask the question, like, how can my situation be better? It's not just whether you're going to pick these people or that people, it's that you are also going to pick people at all.

32:46Angela Duckworth:because Americans in particular, but around the world, were spending more and more time with no people around us. And in one analysis of the American Time Use Survey that Donegan cannot take credit for, this was done by a Princeton sociologist, and I apologize, I can't remember the name of the author. He looked at the data in the American Time Use Survey over the last decade or two and found that the number of minutes that we spend inside the home versus outside the home for any reason, work, play, etc., has skyrocketed to something like an hour and 50 minutes a day that we are spending inside versus venturing forth, you know, beyond our own roof.

33:36Angela Duckworth:And so I think one of the ways that we should be observant first, and then perhaps agentic if we choose, is to ask, you know, how much time am I spending with any other person? And then, of course, which people am I spending it with? That's crazy. So the amount of time we're spending alone indoors has skyrocketed? And it's not just the pandemic, Dan. I was like, oh, the pandemic, you know, no, no, no, That's why it's so important that the trend began before 2020. You know, there has been a rising tide of time spent alone. And I don't know, I think Bob Putnam, when he wrote the landmark book, Bowling Alone, now more than 20 years ago, I think when he looked at trends in this country that preceded social media, that preceded the COVID-19 pandemic, that preceded, you know, know, remote work as a practice that is common.

34:35Angela Duckworth:You know, he really put his finger on it when he said, we are spending more time alone. We are retreating from society, if you will. If you think about what society really is, society is, you know, a community. And I think that some of the things that I mentioned may have exacerbated or accelerated those things, but I don't think they're all like in the last few years. I think that you have to look at how this country and many other countries have changed culturally in the, you know, the decades I've been alive. I'm 56. And I think this country is different from when I was born. In the meantime, as we've become more isolated, we've become, and I believe I'm right about this, more anxious, more depressed, more lonely, more addicted, more likely to take our own lives than we've ever been since we started keeping records.

35:29Angela Duckworth:kind of all the good things are like sex is down reading is down uh you know spending time goes on helping other people in our family outside our family is down yeah the trends are not great and i am an optimist by disposition like you i think no some fundamental no are you not an optimist which i was i was not dan harris fundamentally was i was like looking for the silver lining. Wait, update my Dan Harris beliefs. I mean, I know, no, I think by nature, I'm anxious and pessimistic. And so I'm doing this work as a way to override my nervous system, which is which is on a hair trigger for a threat.

36:14Angela Duckworth:Oh, interesting. I'm reading a biography of Lincoln right now called Lincoln's Melancholy, which I recommend to you if you haven't read it. But Lincoln apparently also was maybe not blessed with a super sunny, optimistic temperament, but then sort of made his life about fighting it and using it for the betterment, I guess, of his community even more than himself. I am not like Lincoln. I don't think I am a melancholy person. I think I'm like, you know, like a bunny rabbit, really, like temperament-wise. Um, so take it from the bunny rabbit. Like I look around and I think, you know, every time I go to an airport, Dan, and you know, we just talked about privilege a moment ago.

36:57Angela Duckworth:If you're in an airport, you have some privilege, right? Cause you know, flying is not cheap and you're going somewhere. Um, so, so we're not talking about like abject poverty, but I'm still depressed when I walk through an airport because every human being, no matter their age, they could be like 95 or five months old. I feel like every human being, it seems, is on a screen. And when you're on a screen, you really are alone together. So there are some, you know, worrisome trends that whether you're an optimist or a pessimist, I think if you're a realist, I mean, you just have to, you know, look at these things.

37:30Angela Duckworth:And I think looking at the default settings of society, you know, what is the default for the situation? Like, what if you just relax and just like kind of like do what everyone else is doing, eat what everyone else is eating, watch what everyone else is watching, Do whatever. I don't think these settings are great. I don't think they're great for most people. If you are doing the work, meditating, managing your stress, getting to bed at a reasonable hour, and you're still waking up like you didn't quite recover overnight, our sponsor, BiOptimizer, says that might not be a discipline problem. It might be a nutrient gap, specifically magnesium.

38:06magnesium. They say magnesium plays a key role in how the nervous system relaxes and recovers, and that when people don't consistently hit their daily intake, sleep, mood, and stress tolerance can all take a hit. Most people, they say, are not getting enough through diet alone. That's the thinking behind their newest formula, Magnesium Breakthrough Advanced 10. It features 10 bioavailable forms of magnesium, plus active vitamin B6 and ionic trace materials to support absorption. their most complete formula yet, they say, for sleep recovery, stress, and metabolic support. As always, you should talk to your doctor before adding any new supplement to your routine.

38:42But if you want to explore it, every order comes with a 365-day money-back guarantee. Head to buyoptimizers.com slash happier and use the code happier for 15 % off your order. Use my link and code and you'll unlock exclusive discounts for friends of the show. Plus surprise, free bonuses and bigger discounts. BuyOptimizers rolls out during certain windows. You can also get free shipping on select orders, and every order is backed by their 365-day money-back guarantee, so you can try it with confidence. You won't find this on Amazon, in stores, or anywhere else. That's buyoptimizers.com slash happier.

39:17Use the code happier. There are a lot of things that AI can replace. Teamwork, however, is not one of them. Which brings me to one of my sponsors today, Notion, a product that I have used in my own workplace, and it is really a great digital solution to help you work better with your teammates. Notion is the AI workspace where your team's knowledge, projects, and agents all come together in one place. Teams using Notion move faster, cut friction and costs by consolidating tools and staying aligned. In Notion, your docs, meetings, projects, and more all live in one connected system where AI has the context it needs to help you do your best work.

39:57It's seamlessly integrated, infinitely flexible, and beautifully easy to use. Because everything lives together, Notion has the context it needs to answer questions instantly, automate busy work, and keep work moving. It's AI designed to strengthen teamwork, not replace it. With over 100 million users, Notion is trusted by 98 % of the Forbes Cloud 100 and 95 % of the top 50 AI companies, including OpenAI, Cursor, Lovable, and more. Learn more about how Notion can support your business at notion.com slash happier. That's all lowercase letters, notion.com slash happier to try Notion today. And when you use our link, you're supporting our show.

40:37I'm holding in my hand, and if you're listening, instead of watching, you can't see this, but just trust me, I'm holding in my hand a really cool gadget that just came in the mail. This is called the Fitnexa Somnipods 3. Essentially, they are earbuds that you can wear to sleep. And unlike other earbuds that are a little clunky if you're lying on your side, these are designed for side sleepers like me. And I have fit them into my ear and they slide in quite nicely and are comfortable when you slide onto your side, which is a requirement for me if I'm going to be wearing anything in my ears at night.

41:13Fitnexa actually provides a couple of cool benefits. First, these earbuds block noise that can be distracting when you're trying to fall asleep. That's a huge problem for many of us, especially if you sleep next to somebody who snores, as is the plight of my wife. Also, though, you can use these earbuds to pipe into your noggin soothing sleep sounds, calming audio or other nighttime content through the Fitnexa app, which I have downloaded and is very clean and smooth and easy to use. They've got guided meditations and nature sounds and all the stuff that many of you like to use when you're trying to fall asleep.

41:51You can learn more about the Fitnexa Somnipods 3 at fitnexa.com and use the code HAPPIER10 for$10 off your order.

42:06This is a bit of a non sequitur, but you mentioned marriage earlier, and you do a very brave thing in your new book, which again is called Situated. You talk about your own marriage. You're certainly under no obligation to do that here, but let me check in with you. Are you cool talking about what you wrote about?

42:22Angela Duckworth:Yes, I am. And not only am I comfortable, Dan, I have the permission and maybe even the enthusiasm of my husband and my daughters who are young women now, but I never told them about the things that I ended up writing about in the book. and only when I finished the draft of the chapter did I like push it across the table. I was like, read this. They're like, ah, I'm busy. I'm like, get on busy because you're going to want to read this before like many, many other people do. So I'm very comfortable talking about the problems and also the solutions that my husband and I encountered together. Well, I'm glad you are.

43:05I think it's a service that you're willing to talk about this stuff. And so you hit a little bit of a rough patch in 2008 after and during the financial crisis. How does what you went through and how you handled it, how is it relevant to the core thesis of this book, which again, is that you have agency to change your situation as a way to change your life?

43:26Angela Duckworth:One reason I think that we overlook opportunities to change our situation is that we're so busy doing something else, which is just trying harder and just trying harder, not changing the situation, but just trying harder in that situation is what got me and also my husband, Jason, through the first decades of our lives with great success. You know, neither of us were smartest kids in our schools. Neither of us were like reliably selected into the gifted and talented programming. Nobody said, oh, you know, watch out for that one. You know, they're a prodigy. But man, we worked hard. And when we met, and I think we were in our mid-20s, we sort of recognized each other.

44:12Angela Duckworth:We were like, oh, you're a striver. Like, you also get through life by trying harder. and when we got married, I mean, it was a real fairytale romance. I mean, the head over heels doesn't even begin to describe, I think, how each of us felt about each other. You know, the kind of try harder philosophy was still going strong. It was like, great, now I'm going to try hard to get tenure at an Ivy League school and you try hard to be a real estate entrepreneur and, you know, we'll have these like beautiful kids and then we'll try hard to be perfect parents and, you know, try hard to get our workouts.

44:48Angela Duckworth:I just try, try, try. And I will never take back my avowal that trying hard is part of success because it is. I mean, there's just no way around effort in the equation of achieving anything, whether it's raising a great family or doing well professionally. But one of the reckonings that really, you know, hit us sideways was that we found ourselves in a situation, and it is around 2008. I know so little, Dan, about the economy that when I made the very, very first draft of this chapter and showed it to Jason, again, not only his endorsement, but his encouragement, I think I got the year of the financial crisis wrong and gently pointed out that, you know, anyway.

45:33Angela Duckworth:So I'm doing what I'm doing as a professor. He's doing what he's doing in business. I'm obviously a little bit oblivious, but we really did. We worked harder and longer. There were times that he was working 100 hours a week. I felt like I was doing the same if I counted the hours that I was working, plus, you know, shouldering, you know, many of the parenting responsibilities. And frankly, it just stopped working. I mean, the wheels were falling off the bus. You know, the harder he worked, it's not like his company started to do better. Like, it was not doing better, even though he was, you know, putting in ungodly hours.

46:04Angela Duckworth:My own research, it's like I woke up earlier, or tried harder to do each study, and they just kept failing. And we had a breaking point in our marriage, really, because of me. I mean, I had this husband who was never home. I mean, when he was home, he was exhausted, always kind, but he was miserable. And I had this, you know, workaholic, miserable husband who was never home. And I felt like, you know, trying harder wasn't working. And And I, at that point in our marriage, girls were, you know, very young, you know, beginning of elementary school, I think. I thought the solution was to just give up and to get divorced.

46:50Angela Duckworth:And I thought maybe I'd be happy that way. And, you know, every child deserves a happy mother. what we discovered uh and it took a while and a lot of therapy um uh was that if you try hard in a no-win situation you know like 100 hours isn't going to do it but neither is 110 hours you know like we had to fundamentally shift let me be very specific about what that meant because in the abstract it's like okay you change your situation but what does that even mean Jason stopped working 100 hours a week. He also not only subtracted hours from his work week, he added in mentors. You know, something he hadn't done until that point in his career is to reach out to more seasoned veterans of real estate development.

47:38Angela Duckworth:And in this crazy economic crisis, ask for their advice. He created an advisory board. I know young people talk about having a brand and so forth that can make our eyes roll into the back of our heads. But one thing I think young people ought to do is what Jason did during that crisis. He had this advisory board of mentors who would convene about every six months and give advice on the problems that Jason was encountering at work. It was this game changer because it wasn't just Jason Duckworth trying to figure things out. It was Jason Duckworth in the company of these, you know, more experienced, seasoned business people who only wanted the best for Jason Duckworth.

48:20I'll give you a tactical change on my end.

48:24Angela Duckworth:You know, when I was failing in these studies, you know, one of the things that made it even harder was that they were just my ideas I was executing. and what I do now Dan and began to do at that point was to not think of myself as Angela Duckworth psychologist like Angela Duckworth individual inventor and genius but Angela Duckworth part of a chorus or a team who in collaboration with a bunch of other people who are trying hard like we're going to get something done and what I have found in my research is that I am dramatically better as a contributor to a team than I am as a solo performer. So all I do now is team science.

49:08Angela Duckworth:I mean, when I work with economists, like they're better at the things that they do. And I'm, you know, making my contribution as a psychologist, etc, etc. And the final thing I'll mention, Dan, is that we went to therapy. And I know that that is a whole long conversation. I'm happy to have as much of it as you want. I'm not trained as a clinical psychologist, but I also was not raised in a family where you go to therapy. So it was with great apprehension and reluctance that I began seeing somebody to talk about my problems, that Jason began seeing another person to talk about his problems, and the two of us went to go see a third therapist to talk about our problems.

49:47Angela Duckworth:And when we, you know, applied effort, less effort than we had, but in this new situation with an advisory board and collaborators and therapists and, you know, finally opening up to our family so that they could be the cavalry that came in at critical times, it changed everything. And so I still believe in effort. I will never not believe in effort. But one of the great Achilles heels of people who have spent their whole life getting where they are because they are strivers is to ignore the power of the situation and to forego the opportunity to put yourself in a situation where all your effort is paying off.

50:33Let me pick up on what you just said, that you still believe in effort. You know this, your emphasis on grit has garnered some pushback, especially from people who say it's kind of unfair to focus on perseverance and hard work when you've got a lot of low income people in a very inequality, in equal society who, you know, can try as hard as they want, but the deck is stacked against them. And so I'm just wondering, like, is part of this new work you've just produced motivated by responding to those critics in some way?

51:10Angela Duckworth:I mean, I'll be honest. I don't know if it's motivated by responding to those critics, but I hope it does respond to those critics. I won't say that I got a lot of criticism, then it made me think harder, then I decided to address it. It's more that the critics had a point. And I do think I was right to try to write a book about one thing. A book about everything is a book about nothing. So in grit, I focused on quality of effort, quantity of effort, the difference between effort and talent, the mindsets that incline you to put in effort, the kind of practice that experts do. I don't think that was a mistake, because I didn't want to write a book about everything or nothing.

51:49Angela Duckworth:I wanted to write a book about something. And I think the psychology of effort is a worthy subject, especially if you, you know, write yourself out of, you know, the game, you know, early on because you're not talented. but where the critics are right i'll give you a story um i mean just a vignette i remember sitting down at a conference it was somewhere in california maybe it was in stanford or something like that and there was this sociologist there now i'm a psychologist i study the individual sociologists do not take the individual as the unit of analysis they're they're studying societies groups culture i sit down next to the sociologist that i had never met before but you know how it is the norm in these little meetings is like you're friendly and you ask people what the best salad is on the buffet bar.

52:36Angela Duckworth:And wow, this woman was so angry at me. She was practically shaking. And I had to ask, I was like, I'm sorry, have we met? No, but I know your work on grit. And I said, well, I'd love to hear what you think. And she said in so many words, I think it is racist. I think it is classist. I think you're ignoring from your state of privilege the realities that the majority of people in this country and elsewhere have to reckon with, and a pull yourself up by your bootstraps mantra is inaccurate and irresponsible. And I want to say that that perspective has legitimacy. And here's what I would say to you today, Dan.

53:32Angela Duckworth:I think that she was right, that there are situations in which effort doesn't pay off. Bridget Terry Long, who was for a time the dean of the Graduate School of Education at Harvard and a very distinguished economist by training. You know, she said to me when I was, you know, talking to her about her own story, she has a bit of an American, you know, like rags to riches story and her parents are very hardworking and they had a great amount of social mobility and economic mobility in her lifetime. Her parents had moved her to a suburb of Chicago, and when her father took a new job, I think it was at Xerox, he put the pin of a compass to where his work was, and then he drew a circle, the radius that he thought was a reasonable commute, and then systematically the family visited every school in that circle to find the very best school for Bridget and the family.

54:32Angela Duckworth:And so she really understands, I think, at many different levels, you know, what opportunity and lack of opportunity are. And from her own experience, I think she would say that hard work does pay off more in certain zip codes and in certain classrooms and in certain stations of life or, you know, the role you're born into. That is why I think it is important to talk about the situation. Where I may differ from some is that when I talk about the situation, and I'm sure a lot of people will criticize me for this too, but I will say boldly that we shouldn't only think about aspects of the situation that are beyond control.

55:11Angela Duckworth:It is equally important, I think, for any person, whoever they are, their privilege or their lack thereof, to just ask what they can change. Because assuming that somebody born into a low socioeconomic status community or family that is not privileged in any way that the word means, it's almost always that there's something they can change. Not everything. Not as much as the, you know, people like you and me, maybe, Dan, but something. And maybe that is the optimist in me. But I do think there's agency if we look for it.

56:16Listeners can get up to$200 off Square hardware when you sign up at square.com slash go slash happier. That's S-Q-U-A-R-E dot com slash go slash happier. Visit Square to get started because the right tools make all the difference. I always smile when I'm patronizing a business and I see when I'm at checkout that they use Square, not just because Square are longtime sponsors of the show, but also because their interface is nice. And I know that they can really help small businesses. I was checking out at a coffee shop in lower Manhattan recently in Tribeca, to be specific. I'm very pleased to pay through Square.

56:51And it's not just payments. They also help small businesses manage staff, payroll, and schedule all in one place. They help businesses sell online or in person with synced inventory. And they can help you access your money instantly with Square checking. Square launched its most powerful tools yet designed to give local businesses a competitive edge without the complexity. If you're ready to sell smarter, run faster, and stress less right now, you can get up to$200 off Square hardware at square.com slash go slash happier. That's S-Q-U-A-R-E dot com slash G-O slash happier. Run your business smarter with Square.

57:28Get started today. We're about to leave on a family beach vacation, and my wife, in an act of kindness and generosity, went on quince.com and ordered me some more of my favorite shorts. so I'm never out of shorts to wear. A couple weeks ago, I got this pair of shorts from Quince, and I've just been wearing them like all the time. So now, thanks to Bianca, I've got three pairs, which I'm very excited about. Quince focuses on high-quality wardrobe staples made with premium materials like 100 % Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and merino wool. Their styles are timeless, versatile, and designed to become the dependable pieces you reach for day after day.

58:09Their 100 % Mongolian cashmere sweaters start at just$60. I think I have three or four of those. They give you the softness and quality you'd expect from a luxury brand without the luxury price tag. Quince also makes premium pants, fitted tees. I've got a bunch of their t-shirts and also polos and breathable activewear. Quality basics designed to work across your wardrobe and hold up to everyday wear. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80 % less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen, so you're paying for high quality, not brand market. Find your next fall favorites at Quince.

58:46Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com slash happier. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. That's quince.com slash happier.

59:06Is there something about your openness to these critiques that jibes nicely with the thesis of your new book? Like one way we can boost our mental strength and odds of success is to be open to and indeed even surround ourselves with our critics, not in a self-flagellating way or a masochistic way, but really as a way to, you know, make our ideas and workflows and processes bulletproof.

59:39Angela Duckworth:You know, Dan, I first of all, don't want to paint myself as a saint, like, you know, always open to criticism, like, what a good point. Let me go write this down and then reflect. Like, I'm as defensive as the next person. I could be as small minded as anyone. I think it's been helpful for me to understand the research. I mean, human beings do not learn without feedback. and the most valuable feedback very often is not what you're doing right, but what you're doing wrong. Actually, both kinds of feedback matter. One thing I have observed, because in the position of somebody who studies greatness, I get to study people who have a lot of power, fame, and money.

1:00:22Angela Duckworth:And one thing I've noticed is that when you just spend time with those people, they are typically surrounded with people who tell them that everything's great. you know like there's just not a lot of tension friction or criticism and and the very wise ones recognize that and they do what you're i think suggesting which is they intentionally place themselves shoulder to shoulder you know nose to nose sometimes with critics because who's going to give you the feedback on what you have missed or gotten slightly wrong or very wrong other than somebody who identifies themselves as your opponent as opposed to your advocate.

1:01:03Angela Duckworth:So I think the more privileged you are, the more difficult it is to do exactly that. Maybe the more urgently we need that. For me, I will say that I probably should get more criticism than I do. I get like 10 emails in my inbox that say, I loved grit and here's why and thank you for every one that says like, I don't like this message and I think you're wrong. Maybe it's 100 to 1, but the value of that one is priceless. And I guess the question is like, do I have the courage to read it or respond to it? So this book, I do think, was a way for me to widen the aperture to point out what I think a lot of critics have usefully and correctly pointed out.

1:01:51Angela Duckworth:They may not like that I have pointed out that there's an agency element to this. So maybe I'll get another, you know, sociologist who sits down next to me at a meeting and is still shaking with anger, maybe a different kind of anger. But it is important. And this topic, Dan, I think is overlooked. I mean, if you want to talk about ratios, I think there are 100 books on like how you can change the inside game of your thinking for everyone that talks about how you as an individual can start to change your situation. Let me pick up on something you mentioned earlier about your husband in the wake of the financial crisis, reaching out and surrounding himself with mentors, because this seems simultaneously really important, but also touches on a subject we've been weaving in and out of throughout this conversation, which is privilege.

1:02:41Mentors are incredibly important. I'd love to hear you say more about that. But not all of us know the right people to create an advisory board. So yeah, how would we go about doing that if we're not super well connected?

1:02:56Angela Duckworth:You know, Jason, I have to say, was privileged to have a father who was also a real estate developer, who was still alive at the time of the financial crisis and was, you know, rather beloved in that community. And so that did open, I think, doors that wouldn't have been opened to somebody else. We're on theme here if we're talking about privilege. Many of my mentors I met through my very first psychology mentor, Marty Seligman. You know, when your PhD advisor is the father of positive psychology and the author of learned optimism and, you know, the ideator behind many, many important discoveries in psychological science, you find that the doors are open when you introduce them, yourself as their student.

1:03:42Angela Duckworth:So how do you do it if you don't have, you know, that kind of network already? Well, let me tell you about some emails that I've gotten, Dan. They come sometimes completely out of the blue from strangers that I've never met. So it's not like my aunt says that you could talk to me or, you know, your old college roommate while I happen to be their nephew. You know, these are emails that reach me. I mean, sometimes I'll be completely honest. I try to make my email address relatively obscure on the Internet because I am an inbox zero girl. And the more widely my email is circulated, the longer it takes me to get to inbox zero.

1:04:24Angela Duckworth:But these individuals sometimes introduce themselves to me with no personal connection and nothing more impressive other than to share with me what they're thinking. I'm thinking of one I just got the other day, a young man named Miguel. He wants to be a real estate lawyer. I don't even know what that is, Dan, but I think I could figure it out from real estate and lawyer. He's of Cuban descent. He has, you know, a very strong connection to his Cuban heritage. He has these sort of business ambitions that are related but separate from real estate law. He writes me this very beautiful note. And at the end, you know, he says, like, thank you so much.

1:05:03Angela Duckworth:Just wanted you to get this. I wrote back. I will also say that if Miguel asks for a conversation, the answer is yes. there is this way that you can meet complete strangers, which is to ask them for what the Hollywood producer Brian Grazer calls curiosity conversations. Will every Dan Harris write back to your email and say, absolutely, I will spend 15 minutes talking to you about whatever you want and however I can be helpful for those 15 minutes? Not every Dan Harris is going to write back to you. Not every Oprah Winfrey is going to write back to you. But I think you send out 10 of these emails that introduce yourself and make a very humble request for five minutes, if 15 seems too much, with your cell phone number and, you know, just why it is that you think that would be so helpful.

1:05:54Angela Duckworth:I will be shocked if you get no positive replies, particularly if you shoot slightly more to the level of like people who probably don't get 100 emails a day like that. But I think the power of that is illustrated nicely, but by an email that my husband got, I don't know, five or more years ago. Young man, played football at a local college, was interested in getting into real estate, didn't know anything about it, asked very politely for a quick conversation where if Jason would be so generous, he would love to learn about Jason's own path. Jason took the call. He liked this guy whose name is Colin, so much that by the end, Jason heard himself saying, do you want to come work for me?

1:06:44Angela Duckworth:I mean, oh my gosh, let's see. I don't have a job. How about for the summer? That summer internship became a longer internship, and now Colin is working with Jason full time. So I'm not saying that every fairy tale ends this way, but you don't have to be famous. You don't have to be wealthy or super educated to send a polite note to someone that you want to make a connection with. I guarantee that somebody, if you send out enough of those notes, will reach back and say yes. We have this new closing segment that I want to get to in a minute. But before I get to that, let me ask you this. Is there something you were hoping we would get to in this interview that we have not yet?

1:07:25Angela Duckworth:You know, we could talk about like Viktor Frankl if you want, or Maslow. But no, I mean, I think every conversation, Dan, is like, it's best to be whatever it is. So I personally don't feel like the goal of this conversation is to like give the readers or listeners like a complete outline. So, you know, I think this has been great. Really, really fun for me. That's not the right word. But I, yeah, I think it's been great. Let's do this little segment that we're calling What's Good, where we talk about like something, you know, could be a book, could be a, you did mention a book about Abraham Lincoln earlier, It could be a TV show, could be a song, could be, I don't know, some new little habit you've integrated into your life that you think is worth recommending.

1:08:06Angela Duckworth:Toni Morrison. Toni Morrison is good. I just finished Song of Solomon. Toni Morrison is the kind of writer I would not consider myself literary enough as a reader to read Toni Morrison. when I was a freshman at Harvard, the book that we were all supposed to read was Beloved by Toni Morrison. I read that and I was like, what? Like, is this baby alive or is this not what? Like, I just, it was too hard for me. But a few months ago, maybe weeks, actually, I was riding down the elevator from my publisher's office at Simon & Schuster to the lobby of Rockefeller Center in New York City. And the young editor who happened to be also riding the elevator with me was introduced in about two seconds as, oh, by the way, this is the most promising new editor we have.

1:08:57Angela Duckworth:Elevator door shut. So I'm turning to this young woman who's decades younger than me. And I said, okay, well, if you're the most promising young editor here, what should I read? And she said, Toni Morrison. I told her as we were descending down. I was like, you know, floor 22, floor 21. I was like, I am not good enough as a reader to read Toni Morrison. She thought for a moment, she said, start with Song of Solomon. Got down to the lobby and I just finished it two days ago. And it is a beautiful book. I won't say that I completely understand it, but I decided to start at the beginning and read it again.

1:09:30Angela Duckworth:It is a beautiful book. It is a beautiful, beautiful book, which we don't have a lot of time to talk about. This is I think we've done this segment now like three or four times. And every time the guest has recommended something high minded and I've replied with something not at all high minded. So I'm going to keep that tradition going. Also Trader Joe's Spanakopita. How's that for low brow? Trader Joe's Spanakopita. Amazing. I love sneaking in a supplemental recco. And so, yes, that's awesome. Trader Joe's Spanakopita. Yes. Duly noted. Make sure you cook it enough. You know, put it in the oven.

1:10:06Angela Duckworth:Make sure it's really brown. Let it cool. Don't burn yourself. It'll be great. That would be a good accompaniment for what I'm about to recommend, which is a new, well, I don't know if it'll be new by the time this airs, but a new, as of this recording, docuseries on HBO called Monsters of God. Wait, what's that about? It's a crazy docuseries. I loved doing this as a journalist when I was a journalist, and I love watching what I'm about to describe, when somebody, when you dive into a subculture, and this is by the guy who made Tiger King, which was on Netflix and got huge during the pandemic about a guy who was doing what I found to be some pretty abhorrent things with animals and became known as a Tiger King and then went off to prison.

1:10:52Anyway, he now dives into, in Monsters of God, into the illegal reptile trade. And if you're sensitive to the plight of animals as I am, there will be some things in there that bum you out. But mostly, it's just an incredibly well made dive into a world populated by beautiful animals, but really quirky, unusual, kind of broken human beings. And like I said, the filmmaking is incredible. And I highly recommend it.

1:11:26Angela Duckworth:Monsters of God. Okay, noted. And documentaries are my favorite genre. Dan, I hope that's not too highbrow to say. But, you know, documentaries are like pizza. I mean, how bad can they be? There's like a base level, which is pretty good. My son was watching it. My son's 11, who was watching it with me and my cousin Andy, who was staying with us. And he was complaining about how he hates documentaries. What? Yeah, I know. But I agree with you. And maybe because I kind of was in the documentary business for so long, essentially, I love watching them, especially music documentaries. But I'll take reptiles.

1:12:01Angela Duckworth:He'll grow into it. He's 11. Let's give him a little time. Yeah. Yes. For now, it's Marvel. Angela, such a pleasure to talk to you. Just please remind everybody of the name of your book and your prior book or anything else you want people to know about before I let you go. Dan, the new book is called Situated. find the people and places that bring out your best. I have really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you so much. Total pleasure. Great job. Always great to talk to you. I want to thank everybody who worked so hard to make this show. 10 % Happier is produced by Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasili.

1:12:35Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Kashmir is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands, wrote our theme. Also, one quick ask before I let you go. Head on over, please, to danharris.com to sign up for my weekly newsletter. Every Monday, I drop a little bit of goodness into your inbox. Mondays, especially Monday mornings, can be super stressful. So that is when I drop in one useful nugget that you can operationalize in your life immediately, either from ancient wisdom like Buddhism or from modern science.

1:13:15It's short. It's easy to read. It's worth it. It's free. Sign up at danharris.com.

1:13:25Insurance is not one size fits all. That's why drivers have enjoyed Progressive's Name Your Price tool for years now. With the Name Your Price tool, you tell them what you want to pay and they'll show you options that fit your budget. So whether you're picking out your first policy or just looking for something that works better for you and your family, they make it easier to see your options. Visit Progressive.com, find a rate that works for you with the Name Your Price tool. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates, price and coverage match limited by state law.

1:13:59Angela Duckworth:Cozy season is ahead and you'll be spending way more time inside. Is your home ready? Don't worry. With Wayfair, you can upgrade your space without breaking the bank. Score up to 70 % off during their Labor Day clearance on furniture, area rugs, mattresses, and more. Plus, surprise flash deals you can't miss. Whether it's one room or the whole house, Wayfair has pieces for every style and budget. Shop Wayfair's Labor Day clearance now through September 7th at Wayfair.com. Wayfair, every style, every home.