When You're Afraid to Slow Down — Even Though You Need To

0:04This is the 10 % Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris.

0:18Okay, everybody, how we doing? Today, we're going to talk about how to keep your mind calm in a chaotic world. What you're about to hear is an interview with me, actually. It was conducted by my new friend, Hoda Kotb, who's another veteran of network morning television. Hoda was, As you may know, for many years, the co-anchor of the Today Show on NBC, which was our arch rival when I was working at Good Morning America. Now, among other things, Hoda hosts her own podcast, which is called Making Space. If you like it, you should go subscribe to the show. Before we dive in, just a lightning quick reminder to come check out what we're doing over on danharris.com.

0:53If you sign up, you get custom meditations that come with all of our full-length Monday, Wednesday episodes on the show. Those meditations are designed to help you take what you learn on the show. and as I like to say, pound them into your neurons. If you sign up, you'll also get invited to our weekly live meditation and Q &A sessions, which we do every Tuesday at 4 Eastern. All right, we'll get started with me and Hoda Kotb on making space right after this.

1:26Have you ever met somebody and then you realized, hang on a second, Their path is almost parallel to mine, except they are ever so slightly ahead of me time-wise. And then you just want to know more. You want to ask more. You want to seek more. You have all the questions. Well, that's the deal for me today. So Dan Harris was a TV news journalist who covered everything from war zones to hurricanes to daily topics. He devoted a lot of his life to journalism. And then he felt a calling to explore the wellness space. Does that sound familiar? Oh, yeah, it does. Dan spent 21 years on network news. From a career standpoint, he had it all.

2:07But on the inside, it was a very different story. Dan was quietly struggling with anxiety, depression, and addiction. He masked it well on the air until one day he suffered a panic attack on live TV. And that was the moment everything shifted. Dan ultimately decided to step away from television to explore a different path, one of wellness and treatment. He then wrote the best-selling book, 10 % Happier, which has since become a hit podcast. The success, a testament to his commitment to not over-promise happiness, but instead offering guidance on how to get just 10 % closer to happy. Dan joins me today in a very introspective and raw way.

2:52He'll share what he's learned from stepping away and leaning in. I've got my pen and paper ready, and I hope you do too. I'm Hoda Kotb. Welcome to my podcast, Making Space.

3:11So I've been waiting for this interview for a while because I feel like you and I are living parallel lives. You're way ahead of me, but I'm on your track. And I just wanted to ask, like initially, when you made the leap from ABC to this whole new world in wellness, were you terrified midair or did you know like, okay, I know exactly where I'm going and I know why? I'm still terrified every day. Are you? Yeah, I mean, there's a great quote from, I'm forgetting her name. She's a female painter who said she's been terrified every day of her life, but she never let that stop her from doing anything.

3:51Oh, I like that. And, you know, I live with anxiety and panic disorder, and it is a big part of my life, and I do all the s*** I want to do. That's how you do it? Yeah, you just have to do it anyway. You just got to do it anyway. Yes. Okay, I want you to take me back, because I knew you from turning on the TV and looking at the competition on ABC, and there you always were. Was journalism your thing since you were young? No. No. I had journalism and the movies mixed up in my mind. When I was young, I thought I wanted to do something glamorous. Yeah. And I went to film school here at NYU in New York City for a semester.

4:24I went to a liberal arts college in Maine, but I took a semester and went to film school and realized very quickly I was bad at the movies. I had no real talent for that. But I took a documentary class when I was there, and I got very interested in the news at that point. And then I, as you know, it's not that glamorous of a profession, especially at the beginning. Yeah. When I was a local news reporter in Bangor, Maine, right out of college. And then I kept moving south to Portland, Maine, and then Boston, and then finally New York. But I loved it. And it was an incredible career until I decided to do something else.

4:56Until it was. Yeah. Yeah, for you. So let's go back a little bit further, because I want to know about you before I get into your kind of career path. So when you were just a kid, what was your upbringing like? How would you describe your childhood? Very cushy, sort of leafy suburb of Boston. And parents were academic physicians, and they're now retired. I had all the advantages one can have in life. My parents loved each other, loved us. They were super supportive. We were upper middle class. Was it an open kind of house where you could tell your parents when something was bugging and all that stuff?

5:30When I think back, we all have either capital T or small T traumas in our childhood. I definitely don't have any capital T traumas. But to the extent that the world became scary for me, I don't recall it being at home. I recall it being as I moved through the world. You know, I'm 53, so growing up in the 70s and 80s as a boy, there was a lot of bullying and, you know, the sort of lesser versions of masculinity that I encountered. And that was where I found the struggles of being alive. But I remember home. It's possible I'm idealizing this, but I remember home as a very comfortable place. Were you an athlete when you were a kid?

6:09I attempted it, but I wasn't very good. Did you have a high school superlative? How were you viewed in school? I had a really successful weed business in my freshman year. Did you really? Yeah. I was really into music. I played the drums. I still play the drums. Oh, really? I have a 10-year-old son. He also plays the drums. So the way other kids kind of knew the shortstop for the Milwaukee Brewers or whatever, I knew the bass player for, you know, the Minutemen or whatever it was. I was really, really obsessed with indie rock or alternative rock. And what about the selling weed thing? What was going on there?

6:43You know, this was an era where we were not in the helicopter parent era. So we were feral kids, latchkey kids. My parents both worked. Did you do it for the money? Is that why you did it? You wanted to make cash? I really had a lifelong interest in pushing the limits of... It's funny because I have lifelong anxiety too, but I also got really, I really liked the idea of breaking the law, breaking the rules. And that was what got me interested in covering combat too. It felt like you were, you know, you should not be here. Yes. You know, and when I first got into covering combat, like we didn't have rules around you should wear Kevlar, you should wear a helmet.

7:21I didn't wear a helmet. This is embarrassing. I didn't wear a helmet because it didn't look good on TV. Yeah. So like, I've always had these two tracks of one being, you know, terrified on the regular and the other track of just being interested in seeing how far it can push things. Did you ever get in trouble for any of the stuff in school? Did I ever get in trouble? Yeah, I got in trouble a little bit, but I got arrested a few times. Yeah. And not for weed. By the way, I thought you were just this total Roger Strader kid who got A's and B's in school and went on to J school. I did terribly in high school.

7:52Did you? Yes. And I got into college because I cleaned it up toward the end. And also my dad knew the dean of the college where I went. So I had like when I say I had all the advantages in life, I really had all the advantages. And I try to keep that in mind now. It's something I talked to my son about because he has even more advantages than I did. We talk about Peter Parker's uncle, Spider-Man's uncle. He said, with great power comes great responsibility. So I don't lecture my son about many things. But that's one of them. Both my son and I came out of the right wounds. We just got really lucky.

8:25And there's responsibility that comes with that. He can choose how he wants to give back. I've made my choices. That's the rule. That's a must. Yes. So if you didn't do well in high school and you go into college, because your dad kind of helps you, how do you do well in college? Like what turned it around or did it get turned around? No, I really did turn it around. I remember the first time I called my dad and told him what my, he was on a business trip in Puerto Rico and I called him because I got my report card from my first semester at Cobley College and it was all A's and he cried because I was such a rotten kid in high school.

8:58I have chills. And I made a decision. I remember exactly where I was. I was driving my crappy Honda Accord. I was a pizza delivery man in the summer between high school and college. And I was driving somewhere and I decided, you know, I'm going to crush it in college. Just like that? Yeah. And I just went for it. That's shocking. I know. So sometimes you think that if you just make a decision, it can happen? I mean, just like that? I mean, you have to do the work. Yeah, you got to do the work. Yeah. I didn't know that I was going to get straight A's. I just knew that I was going to apply myself for the first time, really.

9:33And the thing about college is, unlike in high school, you can study what you want. So I was picking the courses that I was immediately interested in. And honestly, if I had worked harder in high school, I might have gone to a different college. There was a little bit of innate unfairness there. When did you think or when do you think your dad was proudest of you in your life? That's a really good question. I don't know. That moment for sure. I was going to say that sounds like one of the top. Yeah. I graduated with honors and that was, although I graduated with honors. My parents were really excited.

10:06And when they read out my name for the diploma, they called me David Harris. They were really pissed. I thought that was funny. My parents were really pissed about that. I don't, you know, they were reluctant for me to go into news because they had come up through this sort of buttoned up medical school training. But eventually they got very excited about my being a newsman. They were not happy about me writing a book that talked about cocaine. So that was a dicey moment. When you talk about the drugs, you mentioned high school you were selling drugs. When did you first use drugs yourself? You know, it's funny.

10:43I sold weed in high school and smoked a little bit of weed in high school. But I actually wasn't, I didn't really, I still don't like marijuana. And so I was not a real drug user at all between college and my early 30s. So my 20s were really, what did you think I was before? Roger Straight Arrow. Roger Straight Arrow. I was Roger Straight Arrow in my 20s. I was a local news anchor, and then I got to ABC News at 28. Wow. And I was a really, I was pretty straight edge. I drank a little bit, but nothing really more than that. And then after 9-11, I spent a lot of time in Iraq and Afghanistan and Israel, the West Bank, Gaza, that whole thing.

11:24And then I got depressed and started to self-medicate with the rec rate. That's when I did cocaine for the first time. So the depression came from witnessing things overseas or just processing 9-11? I think the depression really was a kind of addiction to the adrenaline of being overseas and feeling like, what could be more exciting? What's the expression? Commonly attributed to Winston Churchill, there's nothing more thrilling than the bullet that misses you, and the bullet's all missed. I had a lot of friends who got hit, who either died or got badly injured. So witnessing horrible things, covering horrible things, and all of those things, but it was the adrenaline rush of that.

12:09I would get home, and even though my life was pretty exciting, I was in my early 30s and then covering presidential campaigns and all that stuff. Everything seemed gray compared to that. I remember one time I was, it was in the middle of the second intifada, so early aughts. And I was kind of cycling back and forth between being in Israel, West Bank, Gaza, and being at home. And I came home from one trip and I was irritable. I was getting in fights with my bosses. And they actually sent me back because I was being a pain in the ass. and I landed in Tel Aviv. I was jet lagged and we went right into the West Bank to cover this big protest that was happening and we covered it and there were gunshots and I had to dive into a ditch and then I got in the car and we were driving back to the hotel in Jerusalem.

13:03We stopped by the side of the road to eat some watermelon, fresh watermelon and I was eating watermelon somewhat dazed from the jet lag and I was like, oh, I feel better. Isn't that so crazy? It's crazy. So you needed that adrenaline. Yes. That's a hard thing to keep, I mean, to keep that level high. It's a drug. It is a drug in and of itself. And I think a lot of people in our industry get addicted to it and we see, you know, their private lives can be tumultuous as a result. You weren't married at the time. That was... No. Okay. I was aggressively not married. So you're going home and that's when you decide to try cocaine, just something to give you that rush that high.

13:43I felt, I had an extended period of time where I felt off and I was doing all these medical tests and in hindsight, it's a little funny because I was really convinced I had some sort of physiological problem. I felt terrible all the time. Yeah. And I was at a party and somebody offered me cocaine and that had happened before, but I had always said, no, I was terrified. I grew up in the just say no era. And I said, yeah, I'll try it. And it made me feel better immediately. The next morning, it didn't feel good. But in that moment. So that's when you started? Yes. Okay. Yeah. How bad did it get?

14:15Not that bad, honestly. It wasn't like, I wasn't high on the air when I had my now infamous panic attack. But it was kind of ambient use. I would use it on the weekends and not every weekend because often I was still traveling and covering big events. But yeah, once in a while I would use cocaine. So you're using and the infamous panic attack that you referred to, if people don't know, you had been anchoring. So it wasn't like it wasn't your first day. We weren't just, you'd been doing it. But for some reason on that day when you filled in for Robin Roberts, something inside you, just something happened.

14:48What went down? What happened? It's crazy. I was at ABC News for 21 years. That's the best known thing I ever did. And you will find this too. I mean, I know we're going to talk about your career transition, which I'm really interested in. I've been out for three and a half years. To the extent that anybody ever comes up and talks to me, it's never about the news. Never. Never. That's so interesting. It's always about the other stuff. Wow. It's almost like it didn't happen. Like it happened for me but like it's not part of the consciousness. To the extent that anybody knows who I am I don't think that's what they think about.

15:22Wow. Well I want to get to what they do know you for now. You really can change what you're known for? Yeah. Absolutely. Okay. Anybody can change. I mean for anybody listening who may or may not have a public profile to the extent that that even matters like you can reinvent yourself anytime.

15:43We'll be right back with more from Dan Harris after this.

16:00So you're a news person for all these years. Yes. Tell me about The Leap. Why don't we just go there? Tell me about The Leap. Well, it's honestly less courageous than what you're doing because I really was clinging to two things at the same time for a long time. So I wrote a book about meditation in 2014. It's called 10 % Happier. It basically told the story of me having this panic attack on the air and how I learned that it was the result of cocaine afterwards. And then I did therapy for a couple of years and through that got interested in meditation. It had a big effect on me, although I guess that might be belied by the title 10 % Happier.

16:34But I was trying to come up with a title that would counter program against some of the over promising that I see in the self-help world. And just for the record, I do believe that 10 % compounds annually that there's a mysteriously cumulative nature to meditation and many other forms of self-development, self-growth, self-improvement. So anyway, I wrote this book, came out in 2014. And I did not. Barbara Walters literally told me, don't quit your day job. so I did not think that it was going to do anything but I had the backing of the biggest media company in the world Disney and they promoted the hell out of this book and the book got really popular oh yeah and I did not expect that and it was great it was really cool and then I started a podcast and a meditation app and giving speeches and writing more books it kind of swallowed my life but I also really loved being a journalist and I had this cool job at the time I was anchoring the weekend editions of Good Morning America, sort of like the B team.

17:33You were on the A team. And I was also anchoring Nightline. And they gave me kind of carte blanche to go all over the world and do these investigative stories. And so I really loved that. Great gig. And I was also afraid of giving it up. So it took seven or eight years of doing two things at once before I ultimately quit. What was the tipping point? Realizing that I would be financially safe. Oh. I just, I somehow I just came to the realization that what I had built in my side hustle was enough and I could leave and it would, I wouldn't. I do have part of my anxiety and I've learned a little bit more about this in recent years is around finances, even though it's irrational.

18:14Like I never had any financial problems in my life and this is part of my good fortune for which I'm really, really grateful. And yet I have this kind of ambient financial fear. I learned a little bit about my family history. I had a great grandfather who was a Russian immigrant and a hustler and a con man and got indicted in the 30s and lost everything and took his own life in a family kitchen. And I realized like that kind of, that's in my nervous system. And it's really helpful to know that actually. And anyway, so once I kind of realized that I was safe, I made the leap and I went to ABC and I said, can you let me out of my contract?

18:55and can you also give me my podcast? And there was some back and forth and some negotiation and ultimately they let me go. So, I mean, you talk about how profound meditation was. I know that people listening have either, some have tried it, some have heard about it, some say I can't sit still. I mean, there's a million reasons people don't do it. How profound was the impact it had on you? Really profound. You know, it's, as I said before, it's cumulative. It's not like the first time I did it, I was, you know, transcending or something like that. I also want to be clear, I'm really not dogmatic.

19:29People should do what works for them. And over time, while I started out as the meditation guy, over time on my show and in my public pronouncements, I've really moved to like all forms of doing life better. You know, meditation, therapy, relationships, that I think is actually probably the most important thing. Sleep, exercise, diet, like the whole package. and I like to present a menu and to be really relaxed and gentle about it. It's hard to form new habits. So I get all of that. And so I'm not trying to make people feel bad about what they're doing in their life now. I would like to say that there is a lot of evidence behind meditation as a modality.

20:08And a lot of people have tried it and feel like they can't do it, but that's because we're teaching it wrong often. And actually pretty much anybody can do it and we can talk about how if you want. But for me, it really, what was profound at the beginning and still now is to learn to not take my thoughts so seriously. And really by extension, not to take myself so seriously. And that kind of easing up, lightening up has a big impact on how you are with other people and it changes your relationships. And that's a positive cycle, a virtuous cycle. Anger was something you wanted to get to the root of.

20:43You wanted to get rid of that. and you went on a silent retreat. How many days and what impact did that retreat have on you? Just to be clear, I don't think you get rid of things, aspects of your personality. I think you just come into a different relationship with it. It's like, all right. So my great-grandfather was a con man who took his own life and I have a lot of fear partly as a result of that. There are many other factors. But do I want to exterminate it? No, that will just make it more powerful. I just want to have an easy relationship with it so that when it rears its head, I'm not owned by it.

21:17And that, I think, is the nuance that I think is really important and helps people ease up. If you're getting tense around things, it's really hard to, and I still do. I have the capacity to be a schmuck in many ways, hence the 10 % happier. You asked something, though, that I forgot. About the silent retreat. Oh, the silent retreat, yeah. I'm curious about this. So I just want to be clear. I went on this retreat because I knew at this point I was writing a book and I needed some stuff to write about. So I don't think people listening need to feel that meditation necessarily entails a 10-day silent meditation retreat.

21:51I was looking for, you know, in our training as TV professionals, we're always looking for the extreme things to do. Having said that, it was transformative for me. I hated it at first. I hated everybody there. And I hated everything about it. So you're just not taught? What is it? You're not talking at all? You talk to the teacher every other day for like 15 minutes, but most of the time you're in total silence with a bunch of weirdos in Marin County, and it's everything you think it would be. Are you journaling? What are you doing? You're meditating all day long. I mean, I took a few notes, but they tell you don't write anything down.

22:23Oh, so you just meditate all day? Yeah, that's hardcore. You wake up at like five in the morning, and for a session of seated meditation, then you do walking meditation, then there's breakfast, then walking and sitting. walking, sitting, walking, sitting, maybe some chores like you help out in the kitchen, lunch, walking, sitting, walking, sitting. And then there's like a snack in the evenings and more walking and sitting. And then there's a Dharma talk where they talk to you about Buddhism and then more walking and sitting and walking and sitting until you collapse every day, all day. That's just one day you just mentioned.

22:55Yes. Wow. And now I do this at least once a year. Wow. Yes. So what came out of it? Like what, what did you discover? I think it's just a deepening of what we described before that you can, you start to see aspects of like, I'm going to be a little grandiose here, reality that everything's changing all the time. So we all know that everything's changing all the time, but we don't live our lives as if we know that. And we are shocked when our faces look different in the mirror and when our friends die and when our parents die and when the careers we train for get upended by new technologies. And when you sit and just all the distractions, you know, the distractions are there.