You Need A Code: Scott Galloway On Men, Risk, Rejection, and Kindness

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28:19The interesting thing about the book is you speak both on a macro level, as you've just done, and also on a micro level. Like, what can an individual do? And you you lay out this three legged stool of core responsibilities for men as you view it. And they are protect, provide and procreate. Can you walk us through those? Yeah, and I'm being serious here. I'd love your feedback because I'm not sure I nailed it here. And I've gotten some really positive feedback. So I think you have to be, I think at the outset of your career, a man should assume that at some point he will have to take economic responsibility for his household.

28:58And sometimes that means getting out of the way and being more supportive of your partner who happens to be better at that whole money thing. My partner was working at Goldman when we had our kids. I was an academic. I wasn't making very much money. So I picked up the slack at home. And I think that's also part of taking financial responsibility is figuring out who is going to actually make money here But I don't think it's a bad idea for a guy to assume that in a capitalist society He's going to be disproportionately evaluated on his economic viability I think that the society disproportionately and unfairly evaluates men on their economic viability I'm, not talking about the way the world should be i'm talking about the way the world is I think a man will disproportionately evaluate himself On his economic viability and also to be blunt 75 % of women saying economic viability is key to a mate.

29:42Only 25 % of men say that. In some, and this is snarky, but I think there's some truth to this, what Chris Rock says, Beyonce could work at McDonald's and marry Jay-Z. The opposite is not true. I think men need from a very early age to decide that they're gonna be economically viable and have a plan. I think you need to be a provider, or at least assume at some point you'll need to be a provider. Two, protect her. I think the whole shooting match, The reason why you get skills, strengths, economic security is such that you can protect people. You want to protect yourself. You want to protect your family.

30:15You want to be in a position to protect your neighbors, your country. That is the whole shooting match. And what is so disappointing, I think, about some of the people we would naturally look to as roles of masculinity, whether it's the president or the wealthiest man in the world, I think where they absolutely trip over themselves in terms of a scorecard around what it means to be a real man is they do not use their resources and talent to move to protect people. protection when you remove funding for hiv positive mothers when you punch down when you mock the disabled there could not be anything when you implement policies that that prey on some of the most vulnerable in our nation there is nothing that could be less masculine real men break up fights at bars they don't start them and if you think about the most traditionally masculine jobs, firemen, cop, military.

31:05What do they do? At the end of the day, they protect. And I think we have to train our boys from a very young age that you are bigger, you're physically stronger, you're blessed with incredible, this incredible substance called testosterone, which means you move to action, but it is always in the context of protecting others. It is a tragedy that women don't feel safe on the subway in New York. Women should be able to cross the street because they see men on that side of the street. So I think from an early age, we got to say protection is the whole shooting match. And then the third and final thing, and this is more controversial, procreation.

31:45I don't think there's anything wrong. When I found my partner or saw my partner, I wasn't thinking I'd like lower rates on auto insurance. The reason I took a risk and approached her is quite frankly, Dan, I thought I would really like to be physical with this person at some point. point. And I think that wanting to have romantic and sexual relationships with people and learning the skills to express interest while making someone feel safe is something a father and a mother need to treat their boys. Women still expect men to make the approach. They still expect men to show that initiative. And the most rewarding thing in life is getting a chance, my view, is getting an opportunity to partner with someone and raise a family and build something with someone.

32:33And it starts with being attracted to somebody and making an approach. And our young men aren't even making an approach. 42 % of men 18 to 24 have never asked a woman out in person. 62 % of men aren't even trying to date. So I think we need to stop demonizing the romantic and sexual interest of young men. The vast majority, there have been some very high profile instances of men abusing their power, and those men should be brought to justice. But at the same time, I think that wanting to have a relationship with someone, expressing romantic interests, taking chances, taking risks, getting used to rejection, showing some perseverance, developing excellence, I think that's a wonderful thing.

33:20And a movement I hate is the incel movement, somehow that it's a badge of honor to be involuntarily celibate. Have you followed this movement at all, Dan? Yeah, of course. I think it's one of the darkest aspects of the so-called manosphere. Well, and here's the bottom line. For 99 % of history, 99 % of men have been involuntarily celibate. I was involuntarily celibate for the first 19 years of my life. I really wanted to be incelibate, but no one would participate in my program. So what did I do? I leveled up. I went to UCLA. I got a plan. I started working out. I started dressing a little bit better.

33:54I got girl friends that could help me figure out how to behave around women, maybe introduce me to some of their friends when they saw I was a good guy. I learned how to endure rejection. I learned how to have a sense of humor. I mean, all of these things, a kindness practice. But I think that fire of desire, it can be destructive or it can be put into a casing where a fire cylinder and creates incredible progress. But I think young men wanting to have romantic and sexual relationships is a gift when it's channeled correctly. And I think men should embrace that and be motivated by it. So you say you've gotten some pushback on this three-legged stool of protect, provide, procreate.

34:38Is it that people, and I get this, think maybe it's retrograde or old-fashioned or that there are many men who just don't fit that paradigm? The criticism that's valid is the criticism that hurts. So I'll tell you the criticism that hurts. That, Scott, getting money and a mate worked for you, maybe that's not the solution for everybody. Not everyone like you, Scott, is obsessed with money. I wouldn't say I'm obsessed with it, but I'm a little bit addicted to it. It's been a very focus of mine because I didn't have a lot growing up. and that relationships, romantic and sexual relationships, aren't the end-all be-all, that you can be happy without those.

35:17And sort of this get out, kill it professionally, get laid, that there's got to be a more modern vision of masculinity. And I think there's some validity to that criticism, but I would argue in what I would call as an emerging cult of therapy, where every one of life's obstacles is translated to trauma and someone else's fault, that not all, but many of these problems amongst young men, if we can give them the context, the skills, and the resources to find a good job and be more attractive and viable mates, that a lot of these issues won't go away, but will be lessened, if you will. So I've gotten a lot of feedback on these men need to work on themselves more.

36:03Can't women be providers and protectors? And to your point, I think a lot of these attributes are important and valuable for women. And I don't think masculinity or femininity, their social constructs, are sequestered to people born as men, as males or females. I think a lot of women demonstrate wonderful masculinity. I think a lot of men demonstrate wonderful femininity. I personally am drawn to men. Most of my friends are more feminine in nature because I have men in my life, quite frankly, that take care of me and are just very nurturing. That's the kind of man I'm attracted to as a friend.

36:35So these attributes aren't sequestered to either gender. What I would argue, though, is that from a very young age, in utero, when you have that burst of testosterone, that there are certain behaviors that men have an easier time leaning into and that there's nothing wrong with them embracing it. And then maybe it can serve as a code. I think everyone needs a code. Some people get it from the religion. Some people get it from the military. I got my first code from my first job, actually, or from their family. I think for a lot of young men who are struggling, I think an aspirational code of masculinity can serve as a real guide point.

37:08But I've gotten a lot of, you know, mostly I would say 90 % support, but the 10 % criticism weighs large on you. And also, I think when you enter, I'm not saying I'm entering the culture wars, but I'm making statements here that are cultural. As a middle-aged white dude, I just think people are a little bit suspicious of whatever you're going to say. And there's been so many unproductive voices that claim to be advocating for men, but what they're really advocating for is their stupid crypto scam or saying that masculinity is about performative virality or dominance that have been just so unproductive in the space that they're generally speaking is kind of an understandable gag reflex.

37:48One of the most frustrating things that I hear and I have never said once is that men's dissent is women's fault. It isn't. Women's dissent is going to be a key component of how we fix this problem. If we hadn't put women in the factories in World War II, the war would have taken longer to win. I still think we would have won it. But if we hadn't provided some workplace protection for women in the 60s, 70s, and 80s, we'd be a second-rate economic power to China. And as someone who has always had partners and spouses who've worked, I think women's assent is to be celebrated, and we should do nothing to get in the way of that.

38:25And the majority, if you notice, of my policy solutions are focused on empowering young people, not just men, but empowering young people. And I think that the constant tilting of economic power away from young to old has been really hard on men, young men. But the bottom line is the majority of my policy solutions are on lifting up all young people. You have taken some hits during this press tour, which, by the way, the book has been incredibly successful. So congratulations on that. I'm curious, have you learned anything about dealing with criticism? I want to put the question back to you. I'll answer it, but I want to hear your view.

39:08I'd like to say, well, okay, I know theoretically that if you're never getting any criticism, you're not saying anything. And one of my heroes is Margaret Thatcher, and she has this wonderful quote about anyone who hasn't made enemies hasn't really said anything. I like what Sam Harris said, that if you're economically secure and have people who love you unconditionally and have both those things, you have an obligation to speak your mind. And I think in academia, we have a tendency to find out what the orthodoxy is and that we all bark up the same tree. And as my colleague, Jonathan Iade says, when you do that, you get stupid.

39:38So I purposely try to wade in dangerous waters. I enjoy it. I enjoy the attention. On a regular basis, I say something indelicate or just baseline stupid. And the internet is happy to weigh in and just clock you. and I'd like to say it bounces right off of me. I learn from it. I move on. It hurts me. It damages my mental health. I'm much better at it. I used to freak out when I'd get attacked on Twitter. I actually decided to get off of Twitter because I just found the algorithms were just promoting, constantly yelling, fight, fight, fight. But I've learned that this too shall pass. One of my big sources of trying to deal with stress I get from criticism or when things just generally go wrong for me is I get a lot of power and comfort from my atheism.

40:29I believe at some point I'll look into my son's eyes and know our relationship is coming to an end and it's empowering for me because what I remember or try to remember is everyone I'm worried about what they think about me because shame is a powerful feeling, right? Shame could get you killed. If you were shamed or expunged from the community just a hundred years ago, you're probably gonna die alone in the forest. So it's a powerful emotion. but what helps me is the belief that everyone I'm worried about, their view of me, is gonna be dead soon and so am I. And so why wouldn't I say what I think, take some risks, take some hits, try and move the ball forward.

41:07I'd like to think my heart is in the right place and I'm more data-driven than most people. I'd love to say, oh, it rolls right off of me. I know I'm making progress. It upsets me. It ruins my weekend sometimes, quite frankly, Dan. It takes a real toll on my mental health. How about you? How do you deal with criticism? Well, I'm not as courageous as you or Sam Harris. I don't always agree with you or Sam, even though I have a ton of admiration for both of you. My admiration comes not only from the fact that I often do agree with both of you, but even on a deeper level from your willingness to challenge your own tribe, which is really hard, counter evolutionary.

41:46And yeah, I've made the decision thus far, and I may change my mind. It's not really part of my job on the planet to be provocative. And I'm not sure anybody really cares about my views on policy issues. I'm more of the human Xanax and trying to provide people with tools that they can use in their own life to cope with all of the opinions they're hearing and all the news they're dealing with. And I think another part is that my training for 30 plus years was as a journalist, it's not really in my nature to have hard and fast views on things. I'm often, you know, because of my training, living in the ambiguity because my job has been to hear from many, many different sides on all issues.

42:33I assume you occasionally stumble on one of my pods. I'm pretty profane and vulgar. And there's a strategy behind it. I very much believe And that is, I think the left has really given up and ceded a lot of ground and power because of being overly sensitive and having what is perceived as just no sense of humor. And if you look back on some of the social commentary that was most powerful from people like Richard Pryor or Lenny Bruce or George Carlin, they were progressives and they were really profane. And I think on the left, we would be well advised to take back profanity and be seen as people who see that part of accepting and tolerating each other is the ability to rib each other.

43:14And that being profane and vulgar sometimes is just really funny. Yes. And it doesn't mean you're mocking anyone. It doesn't mean you're diminishing anyone. People say to me, why are you so profane? I'm like, there's a strategy here. We need to take profanity back from the right because we're seen as overly sensitive. And quite frankly, it's really unattractive. I'm with you on this, and I suspect some of my audience will be mad. I think the one asterisk I would put on it is, and you already said this, but I just want to reemphasize it. As long as you're not punching down and as long as you're not erasing the humanity of people who are weaker than you, then, yeah, I personally am all for it.

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46:19Before I lose you, there are a bunch of really, I think, hard won nuggets of wisdom in your book that I'd love you to run through. Not only because I think they're really important for young men and the type of things that I would say to my son, but also I think they're helpful for anyone. So I'm just going to read a few of them to you and then just pick the ones you want to talk about. Get out of the house. Avoid isolation. take risks be willing to feel like an imposter be kind i've heard you say that one of the biggest mistakes you made earlier in your career was not not being kind be reckless with your emotions be willing to show some emotions follow what you're good at follow your talent not your passion acknowledge your blessings and create opportunities for others okay so i listed a bunch of things there.

47:10Any of those strike your fancy? Men ages 20 to 30 are spending less time outdoors than prison inmates. Nothing wonderful is going to happen to you on a screen. And you have to acknowledge as a young person that 40 % of the S &P is 10 companies. And those 10 companies have one objective, and that is every day get you to spend one, two, three more seconds on your phone and sequester you from the most important rewarding thing in life, and that is relationships. and they'll make it easy and they'll make it seductive and addictive. And you have to fight that power and get out of the house and touch grass and meet other people.

47:49If you're a young man and you find you are making progress, if you want to be in the top 5 % of young men, you only need to do three things. And I have data on this. One, work out at least three times a week. I think physical strength is incredibly important. It's been my antidepressant for 40 years. I've worked out four times a week for 40 years. And when I don't work out four times a week, I start feeling it. I start feeling sorry for myself. I start thinking really negative thoughts. Yep. So work out three times plus a week. It worked at least 30 hours a week outside of the house. Remote work is a disaster for young people.

48:22You need the guardrails and the learnings of being in an office and putting up with that BS and having to dress a certain way, having to behave a certain way. You need that training and those guardrails. And then at least three times a month, be in the agency of strangers doing something bigger than yourself, nonprofit, church group, sports league. And then what I tell young men is once we do that for a couple of months, we're gonna make an approach. We're gonna express potential friendship to somebody. We're gonna maybe even ask someone out for coffee. And this is the goal, no. I'm gonna call you the next day and most likely I'm gonna find out they said no.

48:55And that's the point. And then the next day you're gonna find out you're okay. And you're gonna get used to no. You're gonna get used to applying for jobs you don't deserve. You're going to get used to approaching and expressing interest in friends that you perceive as cooler than you. You're going to get used to asking people out who you think might be out of your weight class. And the key to anyone who is punched above their weight class economically or personally is no. Your ability to mourn and move on and endure rejection is the key to success. I ran for 10th grade, 11th grade, and 12th grade presidents.

49:27I lost all three times, and based on my track record, I decided to run for student body president, where I went on to wait for it, lose. But my ability to endure rejection is my superpower. I applied to a ton of colleges. I got rejected from all of them. I got in on one on appeal, applied to nine graduate schools, got into one. I can't tell you the amount of rejection I've endured from women. But the reason I'm economically secure and get to hang out with someone much higher character and much hotter than me is I have never been afraid to know. Get out of the house, take more risks outside of the house, take fewer risks online.

50:04Don't be mean or aggressive to people. Don't engage in conspiracy theory. Don't gamble online. Take risks outside of the house. Approach people. We talked about the incel movement. I hate that movement. I hate remote work. Follow your talent, not your passion. Young people, the worst advice they get from luncheon speakers at colleges is to follow your passion. Anyone who tells you to follow your passion is already rich. And the guy telling you to follow your passion made his billions in iron ore smelting. This is your job in your 20s, find something you're good at and could be great at in an industry that has a 90 plus percent employment rate.

50:38You want to be an actor, own a restaurant, a nightclub, a jewelry designer, a fashion designer, fine. But if you're not getting bright signals, you're in the 1 % fast, find something more boring where the top 50 % make a good living, in the top 10 % fly private, which is what tax lawyers get to do if they're just in the top 10%. And then the accoutrements of being in the top 10 % of anything, camaraderie, relevance, influence, money, will make you passionate about whatever that thing is. Forget the rest. Oh, kindness. Let me go to why women are attracted to men. Number one, we don't like to talk about this, is the ability to signal resources.

51:17The key word there is signal. You don't have to have a Range Rover and a Panerai. You have to have a plan. I'm in school to learn how to install HVAC energy heaters. I go home at 11 because I got shit to do the next day. I'm responsible, right? That is attractive. You are signaling resources to integrity and hard work and discipline. Two is intellect. The person who makes the best decisions for the tribe, the tribe lives longer, so it's hardwired into us to be drawn to intellect. The fastest way to communicate intellect is humor. If you can make a woman laugh, she will have coffee with you. And it's hard to tell someone to be funny, but what you can tell someone is have a good sense of humor.

51:56Laugh at yourself. Laugh at other people's jokes. Smile a lot. Don't be afraid to laugh out loud. And then the third thing, and this is the secret weapon in mating, and there's data around all of this. The secret weapon in mating that dudes don't figure out is kindness. Women instinctively believe they will be vulnerable at some point during their life, likely during gestation. They are smaller physically than men. They notice when men practice acts of kindness towards people who can never pay them back. And I was not naturally a kind person. I was not born kind. I saw everything as a transaction.

52:33I wanted to get more than I was giving. And what you recognize as you get older is that a kindness practice can create a muscle of kindness where it becomes natural. So every day as a young man, try and think, at least a few times a day, I'm going to try and express kindness, whether it's saying something nice to an old couple who look good on the street, whether it's helping someone put their overhead bag, whatever it is, right? Complimenting someone, having the confidence. This is really hard for men to say to other men. Wow, that was so impressive, that presentation. Just expressions of admiration, just small acts of kindness.

53:10That is the secret weapon in mating that most young men haven't discovered. And it's also the secret weapon professionally because you want to be put in a room of opportunities when you're not in that room. And the way you do that is at every opportunity you have to do a solid for a friend, you do it. You hear about a job, rifle through your contacts. Does anybody I know be good for that job, right? When something happens bad to a friend, you run towards them. Anyways, I think these are all things, the book is more about where I screwed up than what I got right and where I recognized I had screwed up.

53:45But I think I covered about half of them. I figured what the rest were, Dan. You did great there. I'm looking down at my list of questions. I could go several more hours with you, but we are unfortunately out of time. I just want to say in closing, I view you very much, Scott, as a man in the arena. You're willing to go out there, mix it up, say what you think, fuck up, clean up after your fuck ups. And yeah, I just have a ton of admiration for that. And I'm rooting for you. I appreciate that, brother. It means a lot coming from you. I also I've learned a lot from you. I've struggled with some of the same anxiety you struggle with.

54:26And you've been more vulnerable than I am. And I appreciate that you're out there with it because people look at you and they think this is the shit together, handsome guy. And I saw that video of you getting off a plane because you couldn't handle it. and that was a real unlock for me it was like okay if that happens to that guy when it happens to me it doesn't necessarily mean i'm weak and not worthy so i think i really do appreciate how transparent you are thank you scott i want to remind everybody um of scott's many contributions to the media universe you should check out his podcast with kara swisher pivot he also has several other podcasts including the prof g podcast he does a lot on youtube and on social media and his new book is called Notes on Being a Man.

55:07And it's just the latest of many, many books. I will put links to everything Scott Galloway in the show notes. Go binge. Scott, thank you again. Thank you, brother. Thanks, Dan. I want to thank everybody who worked so hard to make this show. 10 % Happier is produced by Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Kashmir is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme. Also, one quick ask before I let you go.

55:43Head on over, please, to danharris.com to sign up for my weekly newsletter. Every Monday, I drop a little bit of goodness into your inbox. Mondays, especially Monday mornings, can be super stressful. So that is when I drop in one useful nugget that you can operationalize in your life immediately, either from ancient wisdom like Buddhism or from modern science. It's short. It's easy to read. It's worth it. It's free. Sign up at danharris.com.

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