Your Mind Gets Stuck In Four Ways — Here's How To Break Free | Pascal Auclair

30:16So I can see that I have a lot of work to do around the views and opinions around that. Especially, and that's a particular aspect of this that the Buddha highlights, and I'm so, so thankful for this. He says, it's clinging to any view, right view, helpful view, unhelpful view, confused views is going to be painful. But clinging to wrong view is even more painful. and there's in right in there there's a few suggestions of things that we could look at tendencies that we have to you know wrongly understanding what is happening the nature of reality and i can name a few if you want please well the most classic wrong view that we cling to so we tend to project on things permanence so the wrong view of permanency solidity stability so we tend to very easily our mind will make something permanent you know i feel like shit i'm gonna feel like shit for the rest of my life you know i succeeded it should continue or i'm great i'm great forever or you know this this is good this is a nice place it's gonna be nice forever this is a good situation it's gonna be forever this is bad it's gonna stay like this So our minds have the tendency to make things permanent, solid in this way.

31:45And we don't question this. We just view this as reality. So that's a type of clinging. We buy into, we adhere to this view. At some point, we have a little bit of a shock, we could say, because something falls apart, a relationship, a situation, something starts to not be so, we give it less value, suddenly it changes. It changes in some ways. And so clinging to permanence, the view of permanence, the Buddha seems to say that's going to make things really painful when you know suddenly the aging starts to show in the face or health goes, you know. And often we are in shock, you know. We can't believe that this thing suddenly disappears, starting to crack, crumble, you know.

32:42And we're very shocked, but we shouldn't be because it's in the nature of things to be. So there's a lot of practice here to recognize that, to let go of that, of clinging, adhering to that view. Okay, so that's one kind of wrong view, the view of impermanence. Are there others that we should be on the lookout for? Another one is the view of satisfying. That's very tricky. The view of like when we project on something, when we perceive in something, satisfaction, like complete satisfaction where there's no nuance. You know, we don't think it can be slightly defective or unstable or changing. And we do this, you know, we'll be just on the internet and we'll see a little something somewhere and we'll, oh my God, I need to get that.

33:32You know, that's what Amazon lives on, you know, the fact that we'll project satisfaction. And what's the actual experience? You know, you actually get the thing the next day in the mail, you know, you open the box and you're like, oh, okay, oh, well, well, that might be useful, you know, but it's not what I projected, like what I thought it was. And so we can be awake to this. We can be not so duped, not so fooled by that and learn by paying attention. We can learn that things are not exactly as we project, what we project on them. And it made me laugh because I was listening to somebody saying, you know, when I return an article that I bought online, you know, and they say like, sometimes I don't know if they still do, but why are you returning this?

34:24They're like, well, you know, I was drunk last night, feeling lonely at home, you know, and I bought a bunch of things, you know, trying to solve my problem, you know, and yeah now i'm not so drunk anymore and you know and i can see it's not that satisfying you know and so and it seems like a bad news you know i'm saying things are unsatisfactory you know and it would be good to see this for for what it is you know it seems like bad news but actually when you're free from that kind of uh allure that you tend to put on things you know and and uh that a lot of corporate stuff is trying to have us buy into the idea of satisfaction with things.

35:12When we're freed from this, it feels so good. There's so much joy that we have access to. There's so much freedom. So when I say things can't satisfy us completely, relationship can't, come on, let's be honest. And, you know, in any situation, in career camp, and, you know, and you see people, you know, some of the richest people in the world, you know, they look miserable, you know. They got everything they want, but they still, you know, they're not happy. And so, we can be aware of this and not cling to the idea of satisfaction and in this way gain into joy and peace and inner freedom. It's a lot of good news in there.

36:01We're talking about the second way of clinging, which is clinging to views. We talked a little bit about the kind of wrong views that can be particularly painful to cling to. But if we think about clinging to view writ large as a way in which we suffer, what is the antidote? what practically, where is the good news? Yeah, with every one of these ways of clinging, I would think that I would like to suggest that becoming aware of how we're holding, how we're holding pleasure, how we're holding displeasure, how we're meeting or holding a view can be really helpful. So to know that, you know, I might have views about what's happening in the world, you know, about, you know, different conflicts that are happening in the world or things that I care a lot about for my society, injustice and this.

36:56And I can get all worked up. If I cling to these things in an obsessive way, I'm going to lose sleep. I'm going to lose appetite. I'm going to lose hope. I'm going to lose vision. I'm going to get depleted in all kinds of ways. And this might be another way to hold these views with care, with clarity. I find inspiration in the Buddha. The Buddha had a lot of views. He spent 45 years sharing his views about stuff, but he was not clinging to them. He was not getting upset about them. And so the way to work with this, I think is to actually notice, oh, Pascal, my love, you're getting all worked up about this.

37:45you're really very very engaged with this is there a way to maybe come back to the body to feel the body breathing here to maybe notice something else you know notice the what's happening around the space around this things around and do a little bit of a titration you know like instead of like fixation you know to relax a bit and to me one of the ways i i'll think about this is to think, is this, the way I hold this, is this leading me to freedom? Is this leading me to ease? Is this leading me to engage? Or is this making me, you know, all worked up so that I'll be depleted later, you know? So to actually take note of the mind state, the way I'm relating to this, you know, and bringing curiosity.

38:36I like that question. Is there another way to hold this? And I might be doing this in the middle of a conversation. You know, I'm with somebody and I want to speak over them to convince them of something because I have a view about this. And if I notice this, Pascal, is there another way? You know, and then I can relax my body, find my breath again, maybe hear the other person. And usually I find myself more intelligent because I have access to more information of what's going on. I'm a little bit more relaxed, maybe, so that my mind is more flexible. I can actually engage with the person at the right level instead of trying to kind of force or, you know, control the other's point of view.

39:23You know, I can actually listen. Maybe I'll hear some nuances that I haven't considered, you know. Maybe I'll get interested in the person. And it seems like suddenly it's possible. there's possibilities it's another field you know so i'll leave in a way conflict you know and so becoming aware of myself my mind state my body and then i can uh you know reorient it's possible the minds have that capacity to re we're not stuck with our mind states you know there's a possibility when we become conscious to say hey there might be another way to go about this. Let's try. Let's try. Maybe I'll ask a question to the person.

40:05I'll get interested in their point of view, you know, and I'll see what thread we can bring here or make or something like this. It's such good news that we can change the channel in our minds. No question about it. That said, we live, as everybody knows, in the middle of what a friend of mine has called a pandemic of certainty. A lot of people in this polarized environment find it threatening to say that we shouldn't be so attached to our views because the stakes seem so high. You know, all of the fears about AI, possible authoritarian slide on and on. And I'm referring specifically there to the United States.

40:50What say you to folks who have that concern of like, yo, don't tell me to ease up on my views. Like my views are really important and righteous here. Yeah, everyone will, you know, do what they want with this, you know? So I'm totally okay with somebody not agreeing with any of this and deciding to keep clinging to their views. That's an absolute possibility. I think that I come back to this same phrase here. I'm sorry, but it's like there might be another way. So I see some people who are activists, or fighting for things they value. And I can see that some of them are able to do this with vision, led by love, led by clarity.

41:39And they can engage a lot of energy, a lot of time. But it's not in hatred. It's not in closing down. You know, I was hearing somebody recently were saying, I'm going to keep speaking up because I know we can do better. And I thought, this is so beautiful. It's not like you, other people, you're so wrong and I hate you. And you're, you know, it's like there's vision, there's beauty in this. I don't know if somebody would make the difference between the two. I do. To me, like I want to go about things like this with vision, with clarity, with love, with creativity. I want to, you know, I don't want to be eaten up inside by something.

42:23I want to, yeah. And so I think that not clinging to a view doesn't mean that we're not going to engage a lot of energy into something that we care about. But it's a different way to go about it. And again, the Buddha taught for 45 years. It's not like he said, oh, I'm not going to cling to anything and just stay under a tree. He engaged in conversation and with people who didn't agree with him. But he seemed to be saying all the time, I will never quarrel. I will never hate somebody. I will never cling to a view. I will have exchanges. I will spend a lot of time explaining my views. But yeah, so it's for everyone to see what's possible here.

43:13I have found personally that being open to other points of view as it pertains to our current domestic political scene here in the United States or on global issues like AI, being open to other points of view is, and this is a little counterintuitive and again, maybe idiosyncratic. It's calming in some ways because I don't I don't feel so locked in on one one point of certainty. OK, let's talk about the third way of clinging in this list of four. And this one, I'm not even sure exactly what's being pointed to here, but it is clinging to rites and rituals. What does that mean? Yeah, at the time of the Buddha, I wasn't there.

44:01So as I heard or understand or it's been described to me, people would have rituals that they would perform thinking that the ritual themselves would liberate them. So standing on one leg and never putting the second leg on the floor would be a good practice to liberate the mind. you know or that you know it could be all kinds of things but really about ways to do things and not questioning what's happening in the mind that questioning nature of reality for example but just behaving in a certain way yeah so this is where it seems to start from and then it goes even And further than this, the way I reflect on this, the way it touches me in a kind of contemporary way when we think about this, to me, is I think of norms, clinging to norms, clinging to ways of doing things.

45:03And, you know, these four aspects, they can be close to one another. They can connect to one another. You know, like we make four kinds, but there's a play between them. You know, because why do we cling sometimes to ways of doing things and norms? Because they're agreeable, they're comfortable for us. You know, so it touches on the first list, the first aspect maybe. A lot of racism will be based around this, you know, like the way the norms that are established by a lot of the white people, you know, of ways to do things. We see this in, for me, I spend a lot of time in the spiritual realm, in Buddhist realms, in retreat centers, you know.

45:50In the West, you know, there's a kind of a white way to do things. And we're not willing to question this, we cling to this, you know. And I remember I was at a conference and there was a woman who said, What's wrong with you? You don't dance your dharma? you know and i was like oh yeah look look at this you know like look at how like in that milieu you know this is what the dharma what the meditation or spiritual practice looks like and it's not danced you don't dance it you know or you don't sing it with gusto you know and so and i think it can be so enriching for us to question these and you know other ways that i see this is about how to do things at work, for example.

46:38Oh no, that's not how to do this. The step one is this, the step two is this. It's as if there's no space for creativity or how to raise a kid. You have kids, you'll know what I'm talking about. People will tell you, this is the way to raise a kid. This is the way to, you know, to, I do that. Sometimes I, you know, I have this in my house with my partner, you know, it's like we start to make a meal. And I'm like, no, the onions go first. You know, that's why I want to bring this list here today, because I think it's very applicable. I'm like, oh, why do I suffer in my relationship? Because I cling to rites and rituals.

47:18I cling to the way we're going to do this meal. And I don't seem to care about the relationship for a few moments here. I care about the order of the vegetables going in the pan. And I'm miserable, and I make the other miserable, and there's another way. There's another way. And becoming aware of this, I'm like, oh, maybe I can let go a bit of my clinging to ways of doing things here, and maybe I'll find some joy and connection. There's so many ways this is applicable in my mind. You know, that's a very rich field. Do you think I should start telling my wife that she should stand on one leg? If she puts the onions first before the meat.

48:07I don't think any of that would go over well in my house. Yeah, I think I like this a lot. And especially as it pertains to an organization, I say this as a small business owner, like the most dangerous phrase is, yeah, but we've always done it this way. And that kind of calcification can be like the enemy of growth.

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50:40up. I'm going to move on to the fourth, because this is the biggest, in my opinion, maybe I'm clinging to view here, but in my opinion, this is the most interesting part of the list. So with your permission, I'm going to move on to the fourth way of clinging, which is it's going to sound a little technical, but it's to self-doctrine or just clinging to the self. Please hold forth. I love that fourth aspect of experience, fourth way of clinging. I love to study this. I find it very, very juicy. I find it very kind of demanding, profound, counterintuitive, and so rich in the possibility of freedom and joy and love and compassion.

51:33And so it's just the Buddha saying, look, I'm going to add a fourth chapter here. I'm going to give it its own chapter because it's very rich. The Buddha agrees with us, Dad. And he's saying, you know, there's a particular way we cling. There's a particular way we fixate. There's a particular way we take up something. And it's this very usual, habitual, very common way that is identification. When we take something to be me or mine, as soon as we make something me in an absolute way, this is me. the Buddha says this happens a lot and a lot of our suffering, trouble and being away from the experience of freedom lies there in that little movement of mind.

52:31And in all these ways, it's interesting to notice that this is a movement of mind we're talking about. Clinging is something that happens in the mind. And it seems like not clinging brings freedom. And so what I hear in that is that the absence of freedom or the freedom lies into some mental activity. That is amazing to think of. It's something that happens inside of me. It's not something outside. If it's something outside, I'm in deep trouble because it's the outside world that will define if I'll be free or not. And in these teachings, it says, no, it's an internal event and there's something to do about it.

53:17And in that particular aspect here, it's that equating something to be. So something is happening and I make it mine. I make it me. I make it in me. I view it as inside of me or I'm inside it. And in any of these views, if we made them too solid, not relative, relatively mine, if we make them absolute, we're going to suffer. So, for example, the body. Let's just take this, the body. So, the body, if I make mine, me, it's me, right away, there's going to be, I think, fear of death. You know, because if this is my body, what's going to happen to it at the time of death? And in spiritual practice or meditative practice or kind of in the inquiry we're doing here, we're actually questioning this.

54:15And I feel that we're, in a way, we're just bringing back a little sanity here. It's not that far out. It's not esoteric. it's just a simple recognition that this body is made of physical elements you know it's made of the stars you know it's made of you know if we put it in an archaic way i would say it's it's made of water fire earth and air you know and so it's mine yes it's mine but it's not absolutely mine or me, you know, it's relatively mine. Yes, I want to decide who touches this body, it's mine, you know, in this way. But of course, it came to be, it was offered by nature, made by nature, and will be taken back by nature.

55:06And in this way of reflecting, I'm making peace with the world, you know. Oh yeah, I'm not mistaken, you know. Yeah, of course it came to be. Of course it's subject to disease. There will be disease. Let's not be in denial here. It will age. The different senses will lose their sharpness in some ways. It doesn't have to be a problem, but it's not mine. This face is not exactly mine. It will change. It is actually day by day. There's something natural about this body. It will naturally change. And so releasing some of the holding here, some of the equating or appropriating. I have a little cabin in the woods where I go often.

56:00It's by a lake and it's a little piece of land just a few hundred feet this way and that way, you know, by the lake. It's my cabin, it's my land, and it's not, you know. You know, a tree can fall on my little cabin, you know, it can burn. At some point, something might happen that I, you know, I'll have to sell it or, you know, things can happen. And so it's not absolutely mine, it's relatively mine. I think what you're pointing to here is crucial for people who struggle with this brain breaking Buddhist notion that the self is an illusion. A lot of people, as I often say, like come to Buddhism for stress release and then just wash up on the rocky shores of non self, as it's often called.

56:53And I think what's, for me at least, what's crucial, the unlock that allows me to understand this very counterintuitive notion that the self is an illusion, you know, because we live in this world where we build everything around ourselves, you know, like my body, my Instagram page, my career, et cetera, et cetera. The crucial unlock is understanding that it's a paradox. Two things are true at the same time. your house by that lake is yours legally but on a deeper level it's all just a manifestation of nature and if you took a high-powered microscope to the house you would see that it's not as solid as it seems it's actually mostly subatomic particles spinning through empty air and and that is, I think, what the Buddha is talking about.

57:48How am I doing? Yes, so true, so right. Exactly, the paradox, the kind of two-level, you could think conventional reality and ultimate reality. Like, it's not ultimately mind. So we're just bringing a little nuance in, you know? We're like, hey, honey pie, be careful because if you totally buy into it totally, you're going to suffer. So it's good to bring a little wisdom here. It's not totally yours, you know? and this with the body and physical things and also with the rest. So I teach meditation. I see this all the time, this gradual letting go. It's not even, to me, it's like a regular thing that I see all the time.

58:30And you know what happens is, and see if you recognize this, but we start meditating. We go to a first class meditation class or something like this. And it seems like everything is referring back to me. It's my breath, my body, my posture, my mind is agitated. And why is my mind like this? And everything, we take everything to be mine. And it doesn't take so much time, a few months of practice. And people report this all the time. They probably don't even notice so much, you know, but I notice because the way they report it, they'll say like, you know, oh, I don't make a story so much out of it that the fact that my mind doesn't stay on the object, like the breath, for example.

59:11I used to make it a really personal thing, you know, but now I don't, it's natural that it does that, Pascal. You know, I won't be able to stay on the breath for an hour and a half, you know, it's not possible. You know, so do you see it's a little bit less personal, it doesn't refer back, it becomes a wider view, it's another vista, I love this. It's, so it's not like, oh, my mind, my thoughts, it's like, oh, there's a lot of thoughts in here, oh, there's a lot of emotional life happening in this system, you know? And, you know, and yeah, at the beginning, I think my breath, and then later I think, oh, the breath is a little, you know, congested or contracted, you know, or the breath is, the breathing is happening easily today, you know?

59:52It's not so much referring to me. And in an experiential way, also, people will be sitting, you know, and at the beginning, you might feel my hands, my hands are resting on my lap, you know? And at some point, very naturally, you're like, ah, it's just a field of tingling, you know? So it's just a slight different view. It's not suddenly the hand disappeared, you know? But it's experienced slightly differently, not as the concept, my hand, the idea, my hand, but a little field of heat or a little field of tingling, you know? And it's so beautiful when there's some release around emotion, because my fear and my agitation and my aversion and my hatred and my impatience.

1:00:36And Pascal, there's a lot of impatience. There's a lot of anger running through the system right now. That opening, that not being so fused and identified, it really has a taste of freedom. And it's not like it's not happening. so it's not the extreme of denial it's not the extreme of uh totally identified it's the middle path of recognizing what is there oh you know there's a body it's important to take care of the body to love the body there's a mind it's important to take care of it but um and the same with thoughts you know at the beginning i'm thinking about this and at some point it's like it has a lot of things to say in there it keeps commenting all the time while i'm meditating You know, it's not so personal anymore.

1:01:30And, you know, joy appears and more ease appears, you know, and less guilt, less shame, less anxiety. The selfing, you know, this activity of owning, appropriating leads to all these things, guilt, arrogance, shame, greed, hatred. This is, you know, it leads to obsession. That's a direct path to obsession. and i'm so happy these teachings are there and these invitation to go question this because yeah we're in the world now of like self self-promotion self-made i'm self-made and you know everything i'm i can say like this is all me saying this yeah it's all me pascal saying this but thank you joseph thank you dan's podcast and thank you thank you you know you know like i'm totally related to all the people who have taught me like i'm not separate in this way um yeah so interconnection less separation in that view you know that um that we can uh we can you know discover for ourselves when when uh marissa uh who's producing this episode reached out to you to ask you to come on the show and to talk to you about being teacher of the month on the 10 % app.

1:02:57She asked you, like, what's up in your practice? Like, what are you thinking about the most in your practice? Where are you focused? And you mentioned this non-self concept as being the thing that was really like on your mind. How does it play out in your life where the rubber hits the road? Practice. So meditation for me is the field of research. It's a very particular field in a way it's protected environment, you know, where I can actually go more minute and see what's happening in the mind and the body and see how this clinging happens, how this definition of self happens. So that's in the field of practice.

1:03:33And I'll give you an example just to highlight this before we go to the rubber that hits the road. I heard your question. But the other day, I think it's a good example of this. Maybe, we'll see. I was teaching in a retreat, you know, and it was the lunchtime break, and I'm lying on the bed, and I'm resting my hands on the, so I'm laying down on the bed, and my hands are resting like this, and I'm just, you know, waiting to go back to teach more or sit with people. And I'm sitting there, and I was thinking like oh where is this you know this identification thing happening like where's the eye where how is the eye happening if it's happening and then i was like well i'm lying down no actually the body is lying down this is the body that's lying down but these are my hands these are my hands you know and then i just paid attention a little more and i was like no there's there's these sensations there you know they're not mine exactly you know and then i was like yeah but this is me this is my face you know and then i stayed there just just attentive to that i said oh no there's particular sensations that i felt you know like lips sensations and sensations and i tend to make this mine you know but these are just sensations of heat or you know and and voila and then i was like but i'm aware of this i'm aware of this and then i just relaxed and stayed there like and then there's like no this is known there's a knowing happening there's a knowing of hands knowing of breath this doesn't have to be me but it still is happening you know so this is the field of you know exploration you know questioning going underneath the you know the preconceived ideas like i think this is my hands let's see what's that oh it's just tingling that is happening you know and so this is the field of research and then i go back to um i go back to my life and then i i don't know you know somebody's talking and i can't interrupt them because of the whatever the situation is you know i have to let them talk and i don't agree you know and it's good that i can't stop them because i notice what's happening And I'm like, you know, I go from, they're annoying with their view, you know, this is wrong.

1:05:56This is not the way, you know, I want to correct this. This is the true, you know, I want to, like, they're wrong to, oh my God, I'm very agitated here. I'm very agitated. And if I stay with this, oh, there's a lot of agitation here. There's a lot of agitation. And then something relaxes in that. And then there can be, care can arise. That's what I see, you know, either joy, like it's not that important, you know, it's like I don't have to be so identified. They're saying this to me and, you know, there's just this happening and this relaxation and some space can open up, maybe joy or compassion.

1:06:35Like, oh, it's a difficult situation, you know. And what I see is the mind can become more creative. It can be more creative and appropriate. instead of barging in, you know, or like it'll be more, it'll remember, it'll remember the values, it will remember respect, it will remember that things are, that I don't have control, you know, that I cannot control the other's view, the other's words, you know, but I can engage, that's a possibility, you know, there might be the possibility of contribution or participating, but not control, you know? And so by just releasing some of the self-identification and just recognizing what is happening.

1:07:18So it's not like it changes everything. There's still, you know, the person is still saying what they're saying, but it's not, I'm not like totally fused with this. This is happening to me, about me, referring to me. You know, it's a different vista again. It's a different view. It's not, events are not about me, for me, referring to me. It's a whole different view. It's, oh, there's a conflict happening or there's something happening that is delicate. Somebody's saying something that is not agreed upon. So it's a delicate situation. So that's the best I can do with this just now. I want to click on the practical elements of what you were saying there, specifically to build on the investigation you described of lying in bed and, you know, just kind of looking for the self and in the many ways it might instantiate in your mind.

1:08:16And then as soon as you look, you see, well, I can't call that self. That I think would make a great meditation. Maybe it will get you to guide one in that spirit for us on the app. But another practical way to explore this idea of non-self until I get it into your molecules in a deeper way. And this is really non-esoteric. It's just to get better at generosity. That you can, you know, if the Buddha talks about letting go, well, generosity is that. Yeah, that's so right. And you know what I think immediately about? Because I've been watching the Artemis, the Orient, the astronauts, in April that were flying in the sky around the moon and stuff.

1:09:07And to me, it was kind of a whole teaching on not-self in this way, because they kept talking about the overview effect. That's an amazing thing. And they were all kind of reporting on this in different ways, the four astronauts. And seeing, I think it was Christina, one of the astronauts, called Christina, she was saying the sense of belonging, like, oh, this is like a little raft floating in space, and we're the crew, we belong to each other. So that's the cutting of the separation, like we belong to each other. And when they landed at some point, when I think the commander or the reed, I think his name is, was saying, like, now we belong to each other.

1:09:56I can't remember what was the exact sentence, but we're linked together now forever, you know. There was this understanding. And what happens is, if you watch, you know, as they were going around, there was a lot of joy, there was a lot of love being expressed, and a lot of taking care of everyone, you know. Suddenly, it was not me going around the moon and I did it, it was we're doing it for us, you know. where we need each other. And there was less self and more generosity. There was more love. There was more joy. There was more gratitude. It was releasing all this, the knowing that we belong to each other, that we have to, we cannot be there just for ourselves here.

1:10:40You know, there's a common objective, Christina was saying, of surviving, you know, and we're a little capsule. And this other guy, also this other great astronaut, not Victor Clover, I think Clover, was saying, we're a capsule, but you're also a capsule on earth. You belong to each other. So generosity can lead to less selfing, and less selfing will lead to more generosity. They kind of play together in gratitude and joy and love. And so they're kind of expressions of each other. If there's less self, there'll be more generosity. And if there's more generosity, it's a really good practical way to let go of self-referencing.

1:11:26What about me? Will I have enough? Opening up to the other, to the other's point of view, needs, etc. Yeah, I think it's a beautiful way to explore that generosity. Interesting linguistically that in English we talk about selflessness as generosity. In Buddhism we talk about selflessness as a reference to the fundamental illusion of the self, but in the end they're both pointing to the same thing. I do want to say in closing that it's just always such a pleasure to talk to you. You do such a great job explaining the Dharma. Thanks for making time. Thank you so much. Really a pleasure to be having this exchange with you and knowing that people will consider some of this stuff and it might be helpful.

1:12:15And if people want to get more from you, where can they find you? Yeah, so there's a website called pascalauclair.org. And I think that's a good hub to find out opportunities for practice, you know, and things like this. And yeah, I think I would invite people to go visit there. Okay, we'll put a link to that in the show notes if anybody wants to dig in a little deeper. But in the meantime, Pascal, you're the best. Thank you. You too. Thank you so much. I want to thank everybody who worked so hard to make this show. 10 % Happier is produced by Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People.

1:12:58Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Kashmir is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme. Also, one quick ask before I let you go. Head on over, please, to danharris.com to sign up for my weekly newsletter. every Monday. I drop a little bit of goodness into your inbox. Mondays, especially Monday mornings, can be super stressful. So that is when I drop in one useful nugget that you can operationalize in your life immediately, either from ancient wisdom like Buddhism or from modern science. It's short. It's easy to read.

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