Zen Ways To Build Routines, Concentrate Your Mind, and Simplify Your Life

28:57Jo Confino:So it'd be lovely to hear a little bit about, maybe even about that moment where those cushions were used in that way. But what it is, how Zen allows us to be present for even a simple object, for a single flower, that we don't need to have a field of flowers to see beauty, that sometimes in the midst of a sea of thorns, one flower can be as beautiful.

29:29Brother Chan Phap Huu:Sacredness is very alive when the practice is alive. and that definition comes into play when we were in a space that has cultivated this energy of mindfulness, concentration, insight, such as coming into Thay's hut that we're sitting in. We have a mindful manners. So mindful manners are instruction of how monastics should behave in our daily life. and there is a particular manner that we all have to restart to learn. So just like as when we are, let's say, professionals in a teacher, we have a particular manner when we are business people, there are boundaries, da, da, da. So in the training of a practitioner, especially monks and nuns, But I'm slowly, as I'm developing classes here, I also want to teach to the lay people, the monastic, the monastery culture.

30:36Brother Chan Phap Huu:There is a way of how we conduct ourselves and hold ourselves in our way of being that embraces sacredness. And some of it is culturally influenced. So for example, the meditation hall that we are talking about, for us in the Eastern, Southeast Asian culture, there's a lot of reference towards our practice of ancestral worship. So like our head, for example, our shaven head, in principle, nobody's allowed to touch it. like when kids come to Plum Village and you will see monks if like a kid try to touch a monk's head and if he's especially from Asia he won't allow the kid to touch his head and the kid may not understand the meaning of it so we're not here to judge people when there's not understanding there's not understanding but for us in our culture like when they ask us do you love your parents, for example?

31:49Brother Chan Phap Huu:You said yes. Where do you put your parents? And we don't say our heart. We say on our head. Because our head is like the highest point in our body. And it represents the ancestral continuation. So when our head is viewed in that way, so there's this kind of like respect to it. So our practice, it helps generate different meaning to a cushion to the altar. We are trained, whenever we pass the altar, we bow our heads. It may look like it's a worship practice, but there is just this element of, because we pass the altar where the Buddha, there's maybe a statue, or not even a statue, but an incense holder that represents our gratitude towards our ancestral lineage.

32:48Brother Chan Phap Huu:And so when we pass it, we would lower our heads as a gesture of gratitude, of humbling oneself, thanks to the previous human beings and teachers that we have these practices today. And when something is practiced in this way, suddenly there is a reverence, there is a respect. And this respect offers this energy of sacredness. And it comes into reality when there is sacredness, our whole bodily relationship to a space changes. And I always see this when new friends come to Plum Village. For example, that practice of bowing when we enter the meditation hall and bowing when we leave the meditation hall.

33:36Brother Chan Phap Huu:So Fridays are normally our arrival day. And we always start with a meditation in the evening, or sometimes it is a total relaxation. It's something always in the big hall that we start off with. And a lot of a lot, we are also always learning by what we see, right? So when there are practitioners that have been here for many times and they practice that reverence that has a big influence to the people around them and someone who just arrived will just by being here will also follow that practice. Maybe at the beginning not knowing what it means, but now you know, thanks to this podcast. But it is this bow when we leave a space and we enter a space, it is like the acknowledgement of our presence that we have been here and we're grateful for being here and now we're leaving the space.

34:32Brother Chan Phap Huu:And for the monastic, we also have, whenever we leave the monastery for any sangha services or home visit, our practice is to inform the three jewels. So we would get in front of an altar and we would like just join our palm and declare like in our hearts, like we're about to go on a journey to, let's say, to Canada. And we will have a tour for two weeks to offer our retreat. And we ask our patriarchs, our ancestors, the three jewels to be witness to our deepest aspiration and to support and protect our journey. And that becomes a very sacred moment for us as an individual, that knowing that we are about to step out of the monastery, knowing that we're not going to be in our safest environment.

35:27Brother Chan Phap Huu:And our mindfulness practice has to be leveled up because we're entering into the world of no practice. And therefore that can penetrate into our way of thinking, being, and speaking. So these very concrete practices become sacred actions for us to prepare ourselves. And then when we come back to the community, we also come in front of the altar and we touch the earth to declare that we have returned home. And we also learn to not take our community for granted. So there is a practice. every time you come home from somewhere, you have to announce to the community that you are here. And you have to say these particular words, and I would like to ask permission to enter into the stream of practice here.

36:25Brother Chan Phap Huu:So not to take for granted, even me as an abbot, when I leave and I come back to the sangha, I still have to ask permission to re-enter into the sangha. So this was built in our culture. And for me, this is something that is very sacred practice to not take for granted of what we have. And so the sacredness is developed through our energy of awareness of a space, how we relate to it. And the meditation hall is very sacred. And at the same time, we are so flexible, especially in Plum Village, because we are limited in our space. So sometimes we turn it also into a place where we would offer a mindful poetry and concert, for example.

37:17Brother Chan Phap Huu:But the way that we conduct ourselves in it changes, right? And sometimes when the World Cups come around, we would organize to watch the finals in the big hall. So there is this understanding of what the hall is. It's a holder for us. It's a sacred holder. But we're flexible enough to also arrange so that our community activity can still run through the programs that needs to run. And so this is where I really like Plum Village. And this is a spirit that I try to hold, like the flexibility of a community and the flexibility of what is sacred. And because somebody once asked us, why do they think when monastics play music, it's not sacred.

38:11Brother Chan Phap Huu:Because sometimes they see us rehearse, but then when they see us do it, they're like, oh my God, that was so beautiful. So the idea of sacredness is a very interesting idea to visit and to see what it defines. And of course, yes, like when, I think that was two years ago, Joe, actually. Oh, right, yeah. Yeah, or was it two years or even three years? Time, time, time. Another Zen thing. That's another Zen thing. Time is just, it's just a practice here. But I do remember that moment. And it was Brother Spirit who, I think it touched a button in him where it's like, we cannot be disrespectful in this space.

38:53Brother Chan Phap Huu:And I think because there was no understanding of what it means. And so the cushions were being just thrown here and there. And Brother Spirit was just saying, he's like, as a Westerner, I know our relationship to objects is very, I don't know the word he used, but it was saying it's very worldly. Like these are just for us to sit, but he said in the spiritual dimension and in the spiritual practice, there is a reverence to everything that is in our space. Even a cup of tea, even a candle, even when we sweep the ground, like even the dirt that is there, it can be very sacred because thanks to the dirt, we're able to sweep.

39:47Brother Chan Phap Huu:And thanks to the sweeping, we have our practice of simplicity.

39:52Jo Confino:Beautiful, brother. And just, you talked about watching football competitions in the big hall. And I wasn't there, but I've been told that at one of these big events, I don't know if it was the World Cup or the European champion final, that Tai came into the hall and that while everyone was watching the football, he was watching all the monastics.

40:15Brother Chan Phap Huu:Yes, it's true. He's so cheeky sometimes. Actually, one time he always comes at the beginning just to like, just as a teacher, you know, showing that he supports this. And, you know, because by him showing support to it, it means that even a Zen master, for the sake of titles and the sake of like reverence, his showing up means that this is okay for us and and one time he even took his chair and he sat in front of the um of the of the projector to look at the whole community it was so funny and but he you know because Tai Tai does it as a joke so he comes and he does it and then he laughs and he goes back and he sits for just a little bit and then he would leave the hall he wouldn't mindful

41:08Jo Confino:Cheerful, cheering, mindful, competitive spirit

41:10Brother Chan Phap Huu:But then, you know, Tai, he's so cheeky So in some of his Dhamma talk, he's like Sometimes, because as a teacher, he has to also remind us of our practice And he's like, you know, sometimes it's so difficult to get all of you to sit in stillness for 30 minutes But you can sit there and watch a game for 90 minutes without moving Even if you need to go to a P, you do not move That's how exciting the game is. He's like, we have to make our meditation that exciting. Like we have to see that being aware and having the ability to take care of our self in the practice of sitting is as exciting and challenging as scoring a goal.

41:56Brother Chan Phap Huu:Oh, nice one, brother.

41:59Jo Confino:so i just want to come on to um to how uh sort of zen shows up in our everyday life yeah so you've mentioned uh sweeping and cleaning toilets and uh and brother i uh about three weeks ago i saw a film which is still resonating in me and it's a new film i think it's from last year called by Wim Wenders called Perfect Days. And it is the most Zen film I've ever seen. And it's about a toilet cleaner in Japan. And on one level, it looks like the most boring film, because every day you just see him get out of bed, roll up his mattress, drive to work, clean toilets, and then come home at the end of the day.

42:48Jo Confino:And then at the weekend, he goes to a little cafe, every time and they greet him. And on the surface, as I say, it's like, why am I watching this film? It's like watching paint dry. But actually, as I watched it, what you realize is he's living a perfect life because he's finding meaning in everything. The way he cleans the toilets is as a service you know he he uses a mirror underneath to make sure everything is perfectly he puts his heart and soul into it he goes every day and sits on a bench and eats a sandwich and just looks at the shimmering leaves of the tree and takes very artistic photos and and every day he goes and has a drink at the same bar but every day they welcome him and as you see the film develop, you see actually he's leading this incredibly rich life.

43:46Jo Confino:And everywhere he goes, he's welcomed as someone with real stability and people treat him with great respect. And it's sort of resonating with me because I see such truth in that. And as you were just talking now about the meditation hall you know one of the joys that people had when ty was live was just to see him enter the hall to see him open a door i remember someone saying i arrived for the first time in plum village i saw ty open a door and i i learned everything i need to learn and um and you you've talked yourself in a past episode about your joy of sweeping and that actually we can find meaning in everything.

44:39Jo Confino:But most of the time, especially in the West, these so-called menial tasks, we try and get them over as quickly as possible. We don't enjoy them. They're just a distraction from what we want to be doing. So can you just talk about, and maybe through you seeing Thai as well as other things, why is it so important and how can we find the joy in how we open a door

45:10Brother Chan Phap Huu:that's very zen by the way it's super zen it's zen plus um being mindful is to establish yourself to be so alive in the present moment that nothing becomes boring. And a part of our practice of stopping is learning to have a routine. And this gentleman that you spoke about in this film seemed very content with a routine. Very content. And I think this contentment, it gives you so much freedom. And there's a precept in our 10 novice precept. Precept means it's like one of our rules that we live by and that we practice by. And precept is also our guidelines for us. And it's a sixth precept in the novice precepts.

46:07Brother Chan Phap Huu:And it speaks on not being caught in using cosmetic or wearing jewelry. So it's about the outer appearance. And I think it will, it speaks about this beauty and our teacher translated it so that it's modern to our time. The sixth precept on not using cosmetic or wearing jewelry. Aware that the true beauty of a monk or a nun is found in his or her stability and freedom. I vow to adorn myself and my sangha, sangha means community, with the practice of mindfulness made concrete by my trainings in the precepts and mindful manners at all moments. I realize that cosmetic and jewelry only bring about an outer show of attractiveness and foster attachment and infatuation.

47:04Brother Chan Phap Huu:Therefore, I vow to live simply and dress neatly, wearing clean clothes. I resolve not to use perfume, powder, or other cosmetic or jewelry. So this is a training to see and to revisit what is our definition of beauty. What is our definition of life? and as a practitioner when we enter into the monastery you have to prepare yourself to come in a way you want to bring yourself to a practice where you are slowly let the saying in Vietnamese is like you are letting the dust of the world settle so you're empty so that you can just experience the present moment, the teachings. And when we speak about teaching, like what that friend has shared to you, just by seeing a monk open the door is a training in itself.

48:12Brother Chan Phap Huu:It's a teaching in itself. And when we speak about finding the attractiveness to life, it reminds me of this love letter that Tai wrote to Mother Earth and his encouragement to everyone is like, we have to refine our love to Mother Earth again. It's like we have to love Earth again in order to live and care for it deeply. So I think the art of Zen and the art of meditation is seeing the mundane thing, like seeing the simple everyday life, it becomes a sacred action. and because our relationship to what we are doing has deep meaning. And that deep meaning, it represents our inner beauty, our inner contentment to this life.

49:09So when you have something and you know it is enough,

49:14Brother Chan Phap Huu:you don't have to chase anymore. Your life suddenly becomes so much more deeper and relaxed. like how many of us like i because i i remember this like um um when what when you know one of your laptop is it's not good enough anymore you have to have a you you're geared you're getting ready to buy a new laptop you you go down 20 different channels of youtube of reviews you go on the internet, you type down, what do I need? Then, you know, you get all of this information and it's this constant energy of like looking for the one machine that does it all, right? And then suddenly you finally buy this machine and you have it, it's enough.

50:07Brother Chan Phap Huu:Then suddenly you don't look and you don't chase anymore. That's like, that's a feeling of you have enough now. So I think part of our practice in the simplicity of practice is to know what we have is enough. It's to arrive there, even in the state of the practice. Knowing that this moment, who you are, still not able to sit still, still agitated, that is still enough. Because there is a practice. and Thai was he was so simple I mean his hut here is just it's just everything in one it's so compact and it's so difficult to buy something for Thai I've seen so many people give Thai gift and as a monk our our practice is we we have to receive all the gifts unless it is totally inappropriate.

51:09Brother Chan Phap Huu:But the majority of the time, we accept all the gifts. And, you know, people would buy Tai a new jacket or buy Tai a new sweater, even the monastics. Because sometimes we see Tai has an old jacket and we want him to have something new. And he always accepts it with grace and he gives it to me. And he said, now give it to the sangha. And I never tell the person though you know unless one day they come into the monastery they would have hung it up on the wall yeah they see someone wearing it um but yeah so it's it's you know for the longest time like kai only had two long robes and we traveled everywhere with two longer robes and for him that was enough.

51:52Brother Chan Phap Huu:You have enough. So in the maturity of the spirit of living deeply this moment, when you have enough, you stop running and chasing after something. You have such freedom. but that doesn't mean you have to enforce others so we have to be very skillful here so Tai was a very simple monk but he's a very caring teacher so when those of us who don't have enough he was like you know one time he's like Siko Chang Kong which was like his his personal assistant like go buy the community jackets for example you know so there is there's Submit away to everything and even to the practice of having a routine.

52:47Brother Chan Phap Huu:Routines are so important and are so practical and the schedule, it becomes our teacher because it helps realign our energies. But we also have to have the flexibility to not be so caught in form. Form is important. Form can support us But form shouldn't entrap us

53:15Jo Confino:Beautiful brother And for those Many listeners who haven't been to Plum Village And particularly haven't been in Plum Village In the Lunar New Year Which recently happened The monks and nuns for one day Each open their rooms For visitors And I remember the first time we arrived and were living in Plum Elisha, we came to visit your room's brother and the rooms of your monastic brothers and sisters. And there's nothing there. I mean, each, you know, first of all, the monks and nuns share rooms, sometimes up to five or six nuns, monks less, two or three normally. But it's a small room that you share.

54:06Jo Confino:There's just a single bed for each of you. And normally the monks will just sleep on the floor on a wooden board. There's no luxury mattress or anything. There can be a couple of bookshelves, but often those are half empty. And that's pretty much it. And then under the bed, there's normally a box where keepsakes are kept. And I remember the first time I came to visit, I left so embarrassed because I thought, oh, my God, I have so much. You know, it's just like I don't need any of this to be happy. And it was such a lesson in how little we need. But also, brother, I want to bring in that Zen doesn't mean not appreciating beauty.

54:59Jo Confino:Yes. And so one of the things I know about you, brother, is you don't have very much, but everything you do have is very beautiful. That you have a style about you. You have a deep appreciation of beauty. When you do get something, I always know that you recently got a coffee machine. And it's like such an elegant coffee machine. You know, it's just so simple. It's such a Zen machine. It's just so simple. and yet it has great beauty in it. And even, you know, you have a pair of Birkenstock shoes, which are brown suede, but they're very elegant. And I think that sometimes people mistake Zen for the need to be dishevelled.

55:45Jo Confino:And in a sense, Tai, you know, you could call him a bit dishevelled. He had one jacket and as you described, you know, when he was going to important events like meeting famous dignitaries or going to speak in global events, And he just had this, he looked like sort of someone who maybe was homeless or didn't have a home. And you wanted to smarten him up. And he said, no, I've got enough. So I really like the fact that you're giving that sense of freedom, that just because one person is one thing doesn't mean then to be a student of that person is to be exactly the same with them. because I really appreciate your sense of beauty and that whenever I see you, you have an elegance about you, even though what you have is so simple.

56:33Brother Chan Phap Huu:Well, first of all, thank you so much, Joe. Oh, yes, I've never told you that before.

56:40Brother Chan Phap Huu:Yeah, I think part of Zen is learning oneself, is learning who we are, like how we want to represent ourself every day. And the elegance, I owe the credit to the mindful banners, really. And I really owe it to also the elders that I have in the community of their way of upholding themselves and their elegance in being. And sometimes the elegance is so powerful. It's their way of just sitting and listening and their way of showing up. And what I like about this community is we have a range of brothers and sisters and we all carry our society with us, our heritage with us. and we all also carry our lineage from our parents, like how they show up for themselves.

57:46Brother Chan Phap Huu:But what you mentioned is very true though because even in this precept, it says, I vow to dress neatly wearing clean clothes. Isn't that interesting as in here? That means that as a monastic, we live simply but it doesn't mean we don't care. And the caring is not just about you. Because when you care for how you dress, you make sure that you don't have odor, for example. You're caring for your community. When you are taking care of how you show up, you want to take care of your health. You want to take care of your eating, your sleeping, your well-being. So that has an impact to the whole community.

58:30Brother Chan Phap Huu:and our teacher also said that each and every one of us, whether we like it or not, we are representing the three jewels. That represents the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha, which is a tradition or a religion. So it is more than you. So when somebody bows to you, they're not bowing to you as an individual. Tai said this very strongly. He said they're bowing to what you represent. So the way you're conducting yourself You want to remind yourself That what you're representing And that is why we have different clothing as monastic We have a robe In our tradition is the color brown Because that was from the time of the peasants And the farmers of Vietnam Brown was the color that represent like the working class in a way, and it represents simplicity.

59:29Brother Chan Phap Huu:So the monastic took on the color brown. So for us to have a robe, it is to remind us of the precepts that we have made vows to practice. Why do we shave our head? It's the motion of cutting through our affliction, transforming our suffering to be of service to the world. And it's a very clean sign. like i am a monastic like leave me alone and don't touch my head don't intoxicate me you know it's like don't don't don't bring worldly things to me that is not appropriate like it's just very clear signs and tight you know when the kids ask thai this in in in the summers thai would also say and like don't ask me to be your boyfriend or girlfriend you know because sometimes monastic are like exotic fruits.

1:00:23Brother Chan Phap Huu:It's like when - Just out of reach. Yeah, it's like when something you cannot reach, you fall in love with it. And I think, I know that there are people who have shared like, wow, the way that monastic is so beautiful. I'm like in love with that beauty. And the beauty that they're in love with is the simplicity. It's their presence. It's their way that they can listen. Their way of showing up is so gentle. you know and as monastic we do have very concrete practices to take care of our boundaries and to protect our deepest aspiration because we're very human and attraction and sexual desire is still very real and we have to be mindful of our energies our approach our physical contact our attention to the details, the most smallest detail.

1:01:17Brother Chan Phap Huu:And that's why in our mindful manners, how we present ourselves is an art in itself. And Tai is very, he pays a lot of attention to this. I remember one of the attendants who came to be his attendant, forgot to shave his face, Tai said, go back and shave and then you can be my attendant. But it's because like, you're going to be like, Tai, he's a teacher to so many. So if you're going to be with me, you have to show up correctly, you know? And it can be, sometimes it can be quite strong, but I think sometimes, especially for the brothers, I think the sisters are much neater than us. The brothers, sometimes they just let go and they just let their hair grow.

1:02:12Brother Chan Phap Huu:Like we have a rule, like in two weeks you have to shave your head. But on tours, in retreats, for example, like every few days, like we shave our head just to show up neatly and be presentable. And when we go out into the public, we always have to have our long robes on. For example, like these are very sudden, subtle gesture and practices, but they inform our way of being. So I think if we are to dress and I would love to work with fashion designer to create Zen Plum Village wear because I do believe that how we adorn ourselves can represent our inner space. And Tai also encouraged us, your room represents your mind.

1:03:02Brother Chan Phap Huu:How do you take care of your bed? How do you take care of your desk? how do you tidy up like i like sometimes like i think it's part of my nature to be like a mad scientist like sometimes my desk is just like covered with like so many things and and honestly ties desk too because i was his attendant so i could say this is like notes everywhere there's notes everywhere and and we we we can just make things tidy but then from time to time when you clean your desk and then your desk is just empty. It's, ah, I just feel so good. And then I know the impermanence is going to get messy again. And then you just practice with it and then create a discipline, you know.

1:03:48Brother Chan Phap Huu:Like these are very concrete habits that we can train ourselves in. Like I have a knack, like I love folding clothes, like when it's like nice and my OCD kicks in, is like clean, perfect lines. You know, like I love doing that. And that becomes, instead of looking at it as something that maybe, yeah, maybe not wholesome, I change that into a practice. Like every time I fold, like I'm just really present for it. The clothes I get to wear, the monastic robe. So thank you for addressing that and thank you for like bringing that up. be but I do see how form can play a role in our way of showing up yeah

1:05:08Jo Confino:Thank you, Brother. And one of the things I always liked about Tai was that as a journalist, he would not let someone interview him unless they were taking part in a retreat and had tasted the practice before they met him. And it made me think that sort of if there are any wonderful designers out there who may say, oh, well, I'd like to help who design some clothes, that one has to embody the practice to be present for the practice. So I think what I'm saying is if someone came along who was leading this mad cap lifestyle, said, yeah, I'd love to design some clothes and I've got some designs already here.

1:06:00Jo Confino:What do you think of them? It's not really what you're looking for. What you would want is someone who has understood the practice, who is centered, who sees the design as an embodiment of the practice, not that they're just trying to create a beautiful set of clothes.

1:06:18Brother Chan Phap Huu:100%. And because the creation has to come from the insight of understanding what it is we are manifesting together and how it can be a support for the practice. Tai did write in 2014 a letter to the community and to the wider community in his envisioning of the Plum Village tradition taking root in the West. He said, Thay believes that one day all of our monastic uniform will change here because it will take root into a new generation. But when we design the rose, it has to embody humility, simplicity, and it's a definition of practitioners. It helps define that. for the monastic and for the lay, I also think that there can be something that helps us also touch that freedom of, of, of being alive.

1:07:22Brother Chan Phap Huu:You know, like the suit gives you a particular energy, the jeans give you a particular energy. When you go to the gym, you have a gym set, right? When you go to work, you have a work set. When you're at home, you're in your comfy pajamas. So I think Like to create something. So it's, so that is embraces, it bridges the world and the spiritual practice together. Like, and Plum Village is very open. Like, you know, I don't want suddenly like everybody to have been the same dress because that's really scary. You know, that's very cult energy, but that's not what we're aiming for. But I just envision like, because Thay said like, every home, should have a breathing corner as a zen space in your own home.

1:08:11Brother Chan Phap Huu:So when you're angry or when you know that you need to cultivate your inner peace, you come to that space. And so many friends have set it up. They have bought a cushion when they come to Plum Village. They bring it home. They set that corner or sometimes it's a room even. And that becomes a space that you create in your own home a sacred space. So I think the body, when we look at the body, the body is very sacred. And how do we adorn and how do we present ourselves can be very sacred also. Thank you, brother.

1:08:47Jo Confino:I just want to bring in, you talked about the couplet of simplicity and humility. So I just want to talk a bit about humility because one of the things I've noticed is that actually something you and I share, brother. So if I'm invited to go to a conference or I'm running a workshop somewhere and I turn up and it's not prepared, I don't say, oh, it's not prepared, who's doing this? But I will always join in. There's something for me about not having a sense of superiority. I'm too important to do something. And I always remember when I worked at The Guardian, there was a there was this horrible sense of superiority between let's say the journalists who looked down on everyone else so if the people who looked after the building were considered inferior to the journalists because the journalists did that and i would say no then that is not true because if your toilets are all blocked up and your electricity isn't working or the and the computers are down, you have nothing to offer.

1:09:58Jo Confino:So in other words, the people who were considered to have inferior jobs, their job was actually just as important. And I've noticed this too about you, brother, that you are the abbot. You have an abbot card you can pull if you want to. But when there's work to be done, let's say in the meditation hall, doing all the Christians, you are there helping, that you've talked in the past about, that outside your office is the sort of recycling and the bins, and that if you see something he's doing, you'll do it. You don't just walk past it and expect someone else to do it. So for me, Zen is also about the humility of always helping out and not seeing one job as being superior to another job.

1:10:50Jo Confino:and I'd love you to talk a little bit about that in general but also you personally that, you know, and coming back to this film that, and I'm not very good at this, I have to admit, but, you know, when I do the washing up, it's normally to get rid of it, get it over with as opposed to really investing my time. You know, that's still such a learning for me. So I'd love that sense of, you know, your take and the Plum Village practice of humility.

1:11:22Brother Chan Phap Huu:I think humility for me is one of the most beautiful quality of a human being. Because humility in some way, it transcends all the three complexes, whether you feel inferior or you are superior or you are equal. Because humility is just this space of wanting to be there. and it's like this openness energy like you can be of service anywhere and humility has to also come with responsibility so for me at the beginning like on a personal level like it was very easy for me to practice humility because I came in when I was 13 years old so definitely I didn't know anything. And so I was, I was trained to be a listener, a follower, and to have my own awareness, to be mindful of, you know, learning from the good habits and not the bad habits of also my brothers and sisters, right?

1:12:26Brother Chan Phap Huu:And when you are humble, then your ability to, to learn is incredible. and I always remind the practitioners that come to Plum Village like brothers or sisters or lay men or lay women or lay person don't just learn through the classes and the Dharma talks or the workshops here, you learn much more by paying attention and that's how I learned in the early days of Plum Village we didn't have classes, if you had a class it was like oh my god we got a class today because the Sangha was still so young at that time. And the elders that we had weren't so many. But as we've all aged, so we've gained experience and we try to articulate the teachings into different pots so that we can teach.

1:13:23Brother Chan Phap Huu:And we help our teacher. Thay wanted us to help him in training also. And humility is when you know how to be a younger sibling. and you can only be an elder sibling when you know how to be a younger sibling. You can only learn to be a leader if you know how to be a follower or else you're leading with your crazy ideas, with being out of touch of reality and then you don't have compassion. You don't have empathy. So humility practice for me is the part of the beginner's mind layer. And when I am now in the community where I am at, I'm always humble because of the life I get to live. And today in one of the classes I was teaching to the bhikshus-to-be, there are groups of monks who are about to be fully ordained in a few months.

1:14:29Brother Chan Phap Huu:So once a week we dig into the precepts of the big shoes. And there was a precept today. It sounds very simple, but it's like, I'm paraphrasing. It's like our practice is to never take for granted our parents, our teacher, our community and the benefactors, the people who offer donation to the community, not to think that we are above them, that because we're monastic, so therefore we get all of this. And I shared to them, it sounds very simple, but it's very easy to take for granted what we have. It's very easy to think that we can outdo each other. and like I've had, okay, like this is spilling some tea in the podcast.

1:15:24Brother Chan Phap Huu:Listeners will love this. One time I was traveling with a monk, an elder brother. We were on a trip to Italy and he is a Dhamma teacher and he was starting to write books for people. and it was in Vietnamese, and his target audience were young people. And I was just a curious younger brother. I was like, so, you know, how do you come about with the books? Like, where is your aspiration? Like, what informs you and what aspires you to? And I was just curious, and we had a wonderful conversation, and at the end, I think he let it slip. I think he let it slip. And he said, I think my books are better than Thai And I was just I just sat there and I'm like, this is awkward And I was just silent And I'm like, you know, I couldn't say anything I was just nodding my head I'm like, hmm, if you think so, you know But I was so young back then And like, Thai, I just want to say this It's like Thay has always wanted us to be better than him.

1:16:40Brother Chan Phap Huu:Because there's a saying in Vietnamese, meaning like if the children are more talented than the parents, then our whole lineage has good merit. Because we continue our parents, right? We continue our teacher. So Thay have said to the monastic in monastic talks, if you are better than Thay, Thay will be so happy. you know and that's an encouragement for us that's a a boost a motivation that tai is entrusting the future to us but i think there are some things you just never say you know as as as as a practitioner to be humble and to and you know and and i i i was curious so i read you know some of chapters of of the book and i mean everything is plum village like this is literally Thai.

1:17:33Brother Chan Phap Huu:Like this book, like you're a continuation. And I guess like as an individual, like you let other people say that it's good. You don't beat your own chest. And that was a brother who I have a lot of respect. And unfortunately, down the path, he's not a monk anymore. So our humble mind and our intentions, we have to be very mindful of them because it can damage our gratitude. And I share this to the young novices who are going to become bhikshu because sometimes don't take lightly the words you announce. they come with particular energies that will come into play. And for this particular brother, his self was so big that when he came into a crisis, he didn't listen to the community to realign on the path.

1:18:42Brother Chan Phap Huu:And he found himself leaving the monastery and disrobing and so on. And he was such a bright brother, so talented. And there's a saying in the Zen school, talent has to go with virtue. If there's no virtue, put that talent away. Like we was like, we'd rather have you than that talent. We'd rather have you as a monk than that talent. Because if the virtue is not there, then the talent only becomes pride and self.

1:19:12Jo Confino:Thank you, brother. There's one final thing that's on my mind, which I'd like to explore a little bit. And that is about sophistication and intellectualization. And this is particularly true in the West. And also, I find in some of the Western monks and nuns, that people often intellectualize the practice rather than be in the practice. And then also beyond that, in normal society living in cities, there's this sort of appreciation within the culture of the more sophisticated we are, the more intelligent we come across, the more we have esteem, and the more complex the words we use, the less understandable it is, the better it must be.

1:20:07Jo Confino:And yet for me, Zen, and coming back to simplicity, is about coming, is that actually the less sophistication, the better. And Thay would often say that actually some of the worst practitioners are the intellectual, the people who are researching Buddhism or professors of Buddhism, that often they're the poorest practitioners because they're stuck in their mind. so I'd love you to share a bit about that place of simplicity because again you know sometimes things are about coming with age and experience but but the older I get the more I appreciate simplicity and and and that that if I'm speaking to someone that there's a power in the simple words in the heartfelt message, in the fact that I'm looking someone in the eye, and that half of the conversation, if not more, is in the knowing rather than in the verbal expression.

1:21:16Jo Confino:And yet so many people, and as I say, including some of the young Western monks, so much is based in trying to work it out in their mind and creating complexity and then often getting lost. so I would love you just talk about you know zen as a place of in a sense knowing and then as a

1:21:38Brother Chan Phap Huu:place of thinking yes sophistication and simplicity I think the two of them also have a deep relationship to each other because sometimes thanks to studying something that is so sophisticated you have the aspiration to make it simple that's true and I think that's what Thay experience, you know, in Thay's journey of renewing Buddhism and making Buddhism alive again was to bring back the very core essence of the practice that has to do with our everyday life, like our emotions, our feelings, our well-being, and then accepting it and then just channeling it. And then here, then you have the simple teaching becoming sophisticated.

1:22:32Brother Chan Phap Huu:So, oh, I have all these emotions. So what do I do with this emotion? Would I bring da-da-da-da? And then you create a whole story out of it. And sometimes it's just like, no, no, no. Stop and just feel it and just be with it. And then just channel it to something that is very simple like action. Like coming back to what we said at the beginning, like part of Zen is bringing into motion the simplicity of life. Like when we are watering a flower, we know we're watering a flower. When we're washing the dish, we know we're washing the dish. So when we're sophisticated, it's good to go into something that is simple action to directly bring it there.

1:23:22Brother Chan Phap Huu:because our mind is a magnificent storyteller and creator of so much more. So I think we do need the scholars. We do need the poets. We need some sophistication, I would say, that are able to articulate the Dharma, are able to articulate the situation of the world in the here and now and present it in a dhammic language. For example, Sister True Dedication is a magnificent speaker and the way she's able to articulate something. I am always in awe. I'm in wonder every time.

1:24:17Jo Confino:Whenever we have her on the podcast, we just zip it, Joe.

1:24:21Brother Chan Phap Huu:Zip it, Fapu. Let our sister give her the mic and let it run. And it's true. But Sister Trudy also has the deepest practice of simplicity. So I think it's also by nature. Like Tai is a scholar. He would never call himself a scholar, but he is a scholar. Like Tai, he's a poet. He's an author. but the way he carries himself, I think that is what we remember, I remember. But I guess like when you only have the intellect, then we become only attached to the intellect and we want to be remembered by the intellect. And I think, I know that Tai was trying to bridge the academic space of Buddhism into the practical space.

1:25:18Brother Chan Phap Huu:And that's why his aspiration in the European Institute of Applied Buddhism, at one stage as it evolves, it would have a branch where it is geared to have classes. It can teach Buddhist psychology, Buddhist history, different sutras. But then it always has to go hand in hand with a practice. like a living practice. And part of the living practice is monks and nuns that commit their life to the Dharma. So that sacred energy that we've been speaking about is carried through, and it's not the academic space that is carried through. And academic has its role in the world and in history and in culture.

1:26:06Brother Chan Phap Huu:But it's almost like we all know our lane in a way. Like I, you know, Joe, like I've always had a complex of like not having higher education. Like I was finished at, I finished grade eight and that was it. And then I came and became a monk. And then in the monastery, you know, you have monks and nuns with PhD. You have monks and nuns with career, worked at the BBC, was a composer, da, da, da, da, da, da. Like we are a garden of so many human beings here. And to be honest, sometimes I would feel inferior to these siblings because they have so much more world experience. And during one of my crises, I was just like, dude, maybe I just need to go out and get in touch with this other aspect.

1:26:55So I was painting a different picture.

1:26:58Brother Chan Phap Huu:And fast forward, last year, I think I had a realization that I'm so grateful yeah i'm so grateful that i stopped at grade eight and i found a school which is plum village a school of life that this is my this is my language like there's no grades here there's no tests here um but there's always learning and for me i've tried to be sophisticated honestly like i've shared this to like some of my closest siblings like you know how thai and And some of my brothers and sisters, whenever they give teachings, they always use the whiteboard. I barely use the whiteboard. I always have it there. And in my mind, I'm like, yeah, you know, I'm going to write something to sound smart.

1:27:46Brother Chan Phap Huu:But that's not me. And I'm just like, no, who I am is like, I'll just share from experience and I can thread in the Dharma. And that is my greatest strength. and knowing oneself has been a part of the sophistication, but then becomes the simplicity. So I think in the two, they hold something that is so beautiful, but what is most beautiful is the simplicity. And I think of designs, right? Like coming back to fashion, when you want something that is so tailor-made and so clean and neat, it's sophisticated because you have to measure, you have to take care of every angle, You have to make sure that it is all done so beautifully that when someone wears it, it looks so simple and so beautiful.

1:28:36Brother Chan Phap Huu:The same thing with architects. I've been working so much for architects, so I'm a little well-versed in this particular world. But also in language, you have to read, learn, study. And I like the sophisticated stuff. even though sometimes I don't understand it, honestly, but they're watering something and maybe just a curiosity, but then not to be lost in it, I think is the greatest art. And for me, like knowing that simplicity is something that everybody can be close to has been very empowering for me because I think I am someone who's quite simple. but I am in wonders and I am in awe of people who can be in the sophistication, adapt to the sophistication as well as make it so simple.

1:29:37Jo Confino:And we love it that you're not that way and that, you know, my wife, Paz, calls you a dharmic jukebox. She said you could just pop a coin and press any button and you know it because you've learned it by soaking it up and refining it. And it's a bit like looking for gold where you have the sieve and you have to sift through a lot of mud to find the nuggets. And I feel you've been spending your life sifting through a lot of mud but finding those nuggets. And when you find them, they're your nuggets. Whereas I think the problem with the intellect is that people can learn about a nugget, but that's not the same as knowing it.

1:30:45so

1:30:47Jo Confino:So, brother, I want a bit of fun just before we end. So I started out by saying that I see Zen everywhere. And I mentioned two examples, I think. I mentioned about seeing packets of crisps, which are called Zen crisps. And also there's a hairdresser in our local town of Bergerac, which says Zen hairdresser. Really? Yeah. So I want to ask you a question from a Zen perspective. So let's just pick those two examples. So if you were eating a pack of Zen crisps, what would it mean to eat them in a Zen way? That's my first question.

1:31:25Brother Chan Phap Huu:I love crisps, so I would enjoy it to the fullest.

1:31:30Jo Confino:Okay, that'll do. So, and the other one which made me laugh even though I was thinking about it was if you were a Zen hairdresser. Which I'd love a Zen monk to be a hairdresser. Just look at my hair, you can trust me. But if you were a Zen hairdresser, what would it mean? What's the difference between just any old hairdresser and a Zen hairdresser? What would it mean? If you were cutting someone's hair, what would it mean to cut someone's hair with Zen?

1:32:01Brother Chan Phap Huu:Well, I've had the privilege of shaving my teacher's head many times. You are a Zen hairdresser. So Tai would call me his barber

1:32:15Jo Confino:So this is something I've not heard before

1:32:18Brother Chan Phap Huu:I even have a video of it One time we recorded, Tai Toad, one of the sisters, attendant sisters with me We're in Singapore to record this conversation I had with Tai when I'm shaving his head And I think a Zen barber is somebody who is a community bridge. Like they can offer the care and the tenderness of a mother, of a father, of an elder brother. Showing affection, showing care to the head, the hair that is being attended to. I think when I was a kid, one of the greatest feelings was having a fresh haircut and leaving the barber, showing off to your friend your newest hair. It's your identity in a way.

1:33:13Brother Chan Phap Huu:So a caretaker like a barber is a lover, someone who is loving their career as well as offering this tenderness to someone. And when I was shaving Tai's head, like, we would just enter into conversations. And it becomes very informal. So the informal moments can bring out, yeah, the very human side of a teacher and a student. And at the end of it, we always look, I would always save all the hair. And Tai was like, he wants to see how much hair his head still produced because he was in his, you know, in his late 80s back then. and his hair was quite black, you know, for someone of his age. So I always make a joke.

1:34:05Brother Chan Phap Huu:I'm like, Ty, you're still young. Your hair is very black. And we always just have a laugh out of it. But it's also like these very simple moments to create something very sacred out of it. And the sacredness, it doesn't mean just stillness and like all like bowing our heads to something. But that moment when I get to shave my teacher's head is very sacred because once again, like it's very rare that we touch somebody's head. But this is a moment I have permission to touch my teacher's head and to shave his head. So it's a very sacred moment.

1:34:42Jo Confino:Wow. Beautiful. I'm glad I asked. I wasn't expecting that. So, brother, we have traditionally ended episodes with a short guided meditation. And the last two or three, we haven't, which is wonderful because now we can come back to it feeling freshness. So if you have the capacity, it'd be lovely to just finish today with a short meditation that brings us back to simplicity, humility, and to Zen.

1:35:16Brother Chan Phap Huu:so dear friends wherever you find yourself sitting on a chair on a train on the bus on an airplane or in your living room or if you're going for a jog going for a run going for a walk or even cleaning your house if you just allow yourself this very short brief moment to touch stillness, you can find a comfortable position to sit still or even to lay down or just to stand still and start to feel the earth underneath our feet, underneath our buttocks, feeling our body connected to the earth, just to establish our posture. And let us become aware of our in-breath and out-breath. As we breathe in, we know this is an in-breath.

1:36:18Brother Chan Phap Huu:As we breathe out, we know this is an out-breath. In-breath, out-breath.

1:36:49Brother Chan Phap Huu:Breathing in, I follow my breath from the beginning to the end. breathing out, I follow my breath from the beginning to the end, fully dwelling in the present moment of the breath, fully present with the out breath.

1:37:15Brother Chan Phap Huu:If it is long, let it be long. If it is short, let it be short. We don't have to force our breath. That breathing is happening already.

1:37:41Breathing in, I become aware of my whole body.

1:37:47Brother Chan Phap Huu:Breathing out, I smile to my body. Aware of body, smile to body.

1:38:01Thank you body for being, for allowing me to walk, to eat, to move, to be engaged, to

1:38:14Brother Chan Phap Huu:offer my presence.

1:38:31Brother Chan Phap Huu:Breathing in, aware of body. Breathing out, I relax my body. offering care, offering stillness. I don't have to keep running. This moment is a moment I can be proud of. I am here for my body. I am here for myself.

1:39:18Brother Chan Phap Huu:Breathing in, in touch with the wonders of life around me. Breathing out, I am grateful to all the conditions that support me to be alive, to understand, and to love.

1:39:42Brother Chan Phap Huu:Aware of the wonders, I am grateful to all the wonders.

1:40:02Brother Chan Phap Huu:Breathing in, I enjoy the simplicity of breathing in. Breathing out. I enjoy the simplicity of breathing out. In. Out.

1:40:34Brother Chan Phap Huu:Thank you, dear friends, for practicing.

1:40:37Jo Confino:Brother Fapu, thank you. I was just deep in quietness there and stillness. So beautiful. Thank you. So, dear listeners, now I've woken up again. Dear listeners, we hope you have enjoyed this episode. If you did, you can find many more in this series. So you can find it on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, on other platforms, as well as our own Plum Village app and also the Plum Village website.

1:41:06Brother Chan Phap Huu:And you can also find all previous guided meditation of different episodes in the On The Go section of the Plum Village app. And this podcast is co-produced with Global Optimism and the Plum Village app with the support from the Ticking Han Foundation. And dear friends, please continue to support and donate to the reconstruction of the nunnery in Lower Hamlet that burnt down three weeks ago. We are very grateful for all your generous donation as we continue to build our spiritual refuge for the world. And we want to thank all of our friends and collaborators, Clay, aka The Podfather, our co-producer, Kata, our producer, our other friend Joe, our audio editing, Anka, our show notes and publishing, Jasmine and Cindy are social media garden angels.

1:42:00Brother Chan Phap Huu:And today, Georgine on the sound engineering. Thank you. And we'll see you next time.

1:42:08Jo Confino:The way out is in.

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