Checking In On The Federal Workforce As The Government Shuts Down

0:00With the rise of prediction markets, you can bet on anything, from weather to what President Trump will say in his next press conference. I'm not a fan of Trump, though I do spend most of my day listening to him and tracking what he's doing. On the Sunday story, who's winning big on these apps and who's losing? The Sunday story from the Up First podcast. Listen now on the NPR app.

0:30My parents are both federal workers with long, successful public service careers. Both of them have decided to defer any resignations or force retirement because the deals just weren't good enough given their pensions. Additionally, my parents both believe that they can make significant impacts within this administration. My worry is that they're going to go out quietly, be forced into retirement or even fired with the shutdown. And I don't want that to happen. I'm really scared about what this shutdown will bring and worried about what it means for my family as well as the future of our government.

1:06Thanks for that message. The government shutdown has begun and the Trump administration is continuing its mission to hollow out the federal workforce. Here's the president speaking to reporters on Tuesday ahead of the midnight shutdown deadline. Well, the Democrats want to shut it down. So when you shut it down, you have to do layoffs. So we'd be laying off a lot of people that are going to be very affected. And the Democrats, they're going to be Democrats. More than 150 ,000 federal employees leave the U.S. government payroll this week. It's the largest single-year exodus of federal workers since the Second World War.

1:40Workers who opted into a deferred exit program formally quit on Tuesday. Workers who didn't take the buyouts were threatened with dismissal. Today, we check in on the state of the federal workforce, what happens now that so many workers have left, and what life is like for federal employees who remain at their agencies. We get into all that and more after the break. I'm Jen White. You're listening to the 1A Podcast. Stay with us.

2:08Life Kit can help you change your life in record time. In just about 20 minutes, a Life Kit episode gives you evidence-based tips you can put into practice that day. No fast-forwarding to get to the good stuff. Just smart, straightforward advice right away. Listen to the Life Kit podcast in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. Joining us in studio is Lisa Desjardins. She's a correspondent for PBS NewsHour. Lisa, welcome back. Thank you. Good to be here. Also with us, Max Steyer. He's the CEO and president of the Partnership for Public Service. That's a nonpartisan, nonprofit advocating for better government.

2:45Max, it's great to see you again. Thank you for having me here. And Eileen Sullivan. She covers the federal workforce for The New York Times. Eileen, welcome. Hi, thanks so much for having me. Lisa, let's start with the government shutdown itself. The deadline for a deal was last night. Right. By 12.01 a.m., what happened? We went into a shutdown. And as much as people think that this happens frequently, this kind of shutdown is actually quite rare. This is most every agency in the U.S. government. Some have some fee structure that they can use to go for a little bit longer. But in general, most every federal worker has been affected by this.

3:22It is a wide and full shutdown. We heard the president say Democrats will be affected by these layoffs. What does he mean by that? And what does it say about how the White House spent those hours ahead of the deadline? That's right. The politics here are thick and important and have a lot of meaning for what happens next in this country. The president is trying to get across the message that he thinks Democrats will get the blame for this shutdown. They are the ones making demands in this shutdown. It's over health care. We can get into that if we want. But it is clear that in the last day, the president and many agencies spent a lot of time talking about that blame game mission, including the Department of Housing and Urban Developments, which used a taxpayer-funded website to blame what they said the radical left for this.

4:05That may be a violation of U.S. law, but this is something that was a focus of the White House yesterday. The Hatch Act in particular. The Hatch Act in particular, exactly. Now, this decision to shut things down comes after Monday's meeting between President Trump and congressional leaders from both sides of the aisle. On Tuesday, the Senate voted on two funding bills. Both failed. What have the conversations between the president and congressional leaders looked like heading up to this shutdown? There's only been one. There was only that meeting on Monday between the Democrats and the Republicans and President Trump.

4:38Now, Democrats, I think, would love to have more conversations, but the Republicans think that's not to their advantage because they say they have a clean funding bill. Now, behind the scenes, here's what I understand is going on, that the leaders in Congress, John Thune in the Senate and Mike Johnson in the House, are very resistant to talking about the Affordable Care Act subsidies, which are at the heart of this right now. They have split conferences about this. Republicans in Congress are divided over whether to extend those or never extend them. However, my reporting is that President Trump is concerned about them and wants to talk about extending them.

5:15So there is some internal dynamics for Republicans here, and that's why Democrats are focused so much on President Trump. They think he's the one that may help them get toward their goal. That's a concern because that extension affects people on the Republicans. That's right. Thank you for helping me explain. Exactly, that those Affordable Care Act subsidies expire at the end of the year. And we know millions of Americans will lose health insurance or see premiums skyrocket because of that. Now, it's a much larger debate, but that is something that that's why the president is concerned. Max, ahead of the shutdown, the White House said the ensuing lapse of funding could cause federal worker layoffs.

5:51And earlier in the month, the White House told federal agencies to prepare for the potential firing of many federal workers without pay beginning October 1st. Tell us more about this ultimatum and what kind of pressure it puts on congressional leaders on both sides of the aisle. So I think taking a step back on the context, you said it earlier, we've seen an unprecedented firing of or constructive firing of a huge number of federal employees. We're over 200 ,000 with the OPM director saying that he expected 300 ,000 by the end of the calendar year. There's been nothing like this. And it's important to understand that this is not about getting rid of waste.

6:26This has been non-strategic. It's fire, fire, fire, not ready, aim, fire. And it has caused enormous, enormous trouble for not the government, but for the American people, which is ultimately what the government is there for. You asked the question, what does this shutdown mean with respect to additional firing? I think that this administration is mixing two very different things right now. They actually had directed agencies to put together RIF plans, plans to fire additional federal employees that coincided with the end of the fiscal year. They are now making the threat to use the shutdown as a rationale for additional firing.

7:06They have no additional authority to fire because of a shutdown. It's very important for the public to understand that those that are forced to work without pay and those that are forced to stay at home, they're all essential. It's not about essential and non-essential. And you can't really, you know, figure out who you want to get rid of on that basis. And, you know, one of the best stories that I've seen recently was one that's saying, why do we have flight delays? It's because of prior shutdowns. These shutdowns create long-term harm. It may take a while for the public to feel the impact of the shutdown, but they're losing a ton every day in their long-term safety, their welfare, and a whole bunch of things that they care about.

7:44Well, and Eileen, tell us a bit about how federal agencies typically prepare for a shutdown and what you've seen in the walk up to this one. Well, from what I've heard, this is very, very different that the guidance they've been given, if at all, has come really late in the game. I was speaking with someone earlier who said that, you know, usually a week ahead of a potential shutdown, they would start to get some information about where things stand in Congress, whether, you know, anyone is close to a deal. But what we've heard from some agencies is that, you know, they said we won't even tell you who's furloughed until there is a shutdown.

8:22And that's a lot for people to process, you know, in the middle of the night and then come in and take four hours to wrap things up. Here's a message from Christine in Delaware and her reaction to the government shutdown. I'm very concerned since Trump says that the shutdown is the cause of the Democrats when that's absolutely not true. since the Republicans control the Senate and Congress. It's, you know, the Republicans and Trump's doing. It's like Trump is holding the nation hostage unless he gets what he wants. And I feel it's the antithesis to democracy. Thanks for that message. Here's the message we got from Christina sharing her reaction to the shutdown and what it will mean for her.

9:06Well, I was a government worker that was actually laid off back in April with the mass layoffs at the Department of Health and Human Services. I've been job hunting ever since with no success. The market's really not that great. And now my husband, who is an essential government worker, is working without pay because of the shutdown. And our family income, the remaining of family income, has basically evaporated overnight. Puts us in a very tough position with house and two kids. and I just worry about the future for our family. Christina, thank you for that call. Lisa, Christina's call there really points out the very human impact of this shutdown, but also the human impact of what we've seen since January and how it's affecting the federal workforce and the D.C.

10:01region more broadly. Economically, there's some real fallout. In the modern era and arguably in the entire history of the United States, the federal workforce, the ones who keep government going, have never seen this kind of disruption and sort of chaotic push to dismantle what they have built over generations. And it is not just a morale issue, but it is a human issue and it's an economic issue. We've seen the numbers show that clearly the economy is right now in a difficult position. And often, you know, probably on this show, I know you've had many discussions over, is a president to blame for the economy either way?

10:43Is it larger forces? Here we know these are layoffs that are Trump administration related and have to do a lot with the federal workforce. Let's head to a quick break here. We'll be back with more from you and our guests in just a moment. Stay with us.

11:01Let's get back to our conversation with a message from Laura in Maryland. Laura took part in the Deferred Resignation Program. I worked for the General Services Administration, and I accepted the Deferred Resignation Program, mostly because I knew that my department was going to be laid off no matter what, and that's exactly what happened. I took the DRP, and within the next couple weeks, my whole department lost their jobs. And I've been looking for work ever since and have not been very successful. And while, one, I'm concerned with the government shutdown, I wonder if I'm going to get my last check, which is supposed to be my annual leave that I accrued.

11:44I wondered if I'm going to see that come in. And two, I just spent over$850 on health insurance just for the month of October, just for me, just a single person,$850 for one month. So, you know, I'm very concerned about my own, you know, what's going to happen to me looking for work in this area. And I'm also concerned just about the health of our whole area. You know, the job market is saturated. So many people are looking for work. There's just not a lot of jobs out there. And I just wonder how our area here is going to survive. Max, just give us some insight into what Laura's saying there and how closely her experience mirrors that of other federal workers who have either taken that resignation or are being fired.

12:35It's a terrible situation. And it's true over thousands and thousands of people in this area and in others. I mean, as you know, while we have a huge concentration of federal employees here, 85 % of the workforce is outside the D.C. area. So this is harm to the people's workforce happening across the entire country. And really important to underscore, for no reason, no good reason. And that's something that I think we really need to appreciate here. Lots of people look at this and say, well, the government was bloated. We needed to reduce it. The workforce size was the same size as it was in the 1960s.

13:09It's not the workforce that needed to be cut, and it did not need to be cut in this way. So the harm that is being described is one that unfortunately not only is being experienced now, but it's going to accelerate as that 135 ,000 to 150 ,000 people hit the rolls. The process that people are experiencing is also awful because so many of the people that are needed to run these processes of helping people leave the workforce effectively, they're part of the people leaving. So, you know, there were old systems. It was chaotic before. And, you know, this is chaos being put on top of chaos. And with the shutdown, you see this as an even larger problem.

13:44And when you see the administration saying they're going to keep on the people who are necessary to riff additional people, you have to ask, really, what are you doing? And why are you doing this? Because it's not helping the public. It is furthering an agenda that is actually not good for our country. Well, Eileen, pull on that thread a bit. When we talk about the people responsible for processing the paperwork, the retirement paperwork, I'm thinking about, for instance, USAID, an entire agency dismantled. Do we have enough federal workers to process this in a way that is timely and responsive to people's needs who are exiting this workforce?

14:27Well, I mean, I think that that question could apply to the government a year ago. I think that there has been staffing issues in that space for a while. OPM has struggled to keep up with retirements. I think that the additional numbers is going to be inevitable as far as backlogs. I've seen a lot of people talking about how long it's taking to hear back from somebody from OPM about when they can expect their checks. I think it's very difficult. And when you talk about executing this RIF process, I mean, if you look at health and human services alone, so many people reported having information that was inaccurate on their paperwork.

15:11So this is before the people, you know, the people doing this are furloughed. So if they can't get it right the first time, you know, who knows what's going to happen this time. There's also this question that I have about, you know, some agencies are bringing people back that they rift. So, you know, the General Services Administration asked around 400 people in one division to come back. And so where are you going to do more cuts there? I think the deferred resignation program just, you know, became so popular because of all of the uncertainty surrounding what would happen next that agencies had to kind of recalculate additional layoffs.

15:57And if we hadn't heard, you know, before the shutdown that agencies were planning on cutting out, you know, other swaths of people and programs, I'm not sure where they're looking now. I mean, Lisa, this extension of the health care benefits, what argument are Democrats making for why this is something the U.S. can afford and needs to afford? That's right. I mean, this is billions of dollars. It depends on how long the extension would be for, if permanent or a year or so. Their argument is that the long-term costs of not doing this are much greater because you have basically taxpayers maybe in local and state areas footing the cost of people going for emergency services who cannot afford it.

16:41It speaks to the much larger health care crisis this country has. And they say the more people who are insured, even if it's costing federal taxpayers more, that it is bringing down the cost overall of health care in America. It's adding more preventative care for a group that, frankly, is more at high risk and has more expensive health care. If they're getting preventative services, is the Democratic argument, then it brings down the cost for everyone. Well, Lisa, I just wonder if we should look at these health care subsidies in context of the other spending the Trump administration is supportive.

17:13Well, absolutely. And it's interesting if you go through these contingency plans, which tell us what agencies are keeping open and what they're not. For example, the Department of Transportation, they are keeping air traffic controllers on the job, but they are stopping, for example, some random drug testing of non-safety personnel. But I noticed in there that something they are keeping going is anything related to the One Big Beautiful Bill Act. All of those functions will continue during the shutdown. And that's really kind of indicative of how the Trump administration has done this. All of their priorities going forward, all of the spending they want, they will continue.

17:49But I think to Chris's bigger point, the caller, we do have a huge and crushing national debt problem. But think about it this way. If you got rid of all of the federal workers' salaries, all of the civilian workers you stopped altogether, shut all of them down permanently, you would save like 4 % of government spending. It is not really about dealing with our debt problem when you talk about that. It's about something else. It's about institutions and power. And do you want a civilian workforce that is dedicated to a meritocracy and perhaps Republicans argue are too bureaucratic? Or do you want a political force having more power?

18:31Let's go to this message we got from Michelle in D.C. I'm actually a fired federal worker with HHS for 15 years. And my question is related to whether severance payouts and appeals with the Merit Service Protection Board can continue with a shutdown. So thinking about both kind of current federal workers, but also those of us that were fired in the last few months and are still relying on severance payments. Lisa, what can you tell us? I just pulled up the Merit Systems Protection Board, their shutdown guidance. And of the 163 employees that they have, they plan to furlough 162 of them. So that tells me that it's unlikely that they will be doing very much work at all.

19:19I don't know what that means for payments that are already in the works. But I think that the appeals process, you should expect it to grind potentially to a complete halt. And it's just worth noting that even beyond that, the administration has now taken the position that they should be able to fire people at will and they should be able to control the makeup of the board itself. So the whole process of internal appeals of firing may be turned upside down by this administration. Here's an email we got from one of you. I'm a federal employee currently furloughed. I just want to put a fine point on the failure of the job market to support employees who took the DRP.

19:59The initial email encouraged us to find, quote-unquote, higher productivity jobs in the private workforce. There are no higher productivity jobs to be found. Federal jobs are high productivity because we keep this country going. The suggestion that we note is incredibly disrespectful to Fed employees and the American people who rely on our civil services. And Lisa, this brings us back to a point you made earlier, which is what this uncertainty, this chaos has meant for the economy at large. This assumption that federal workers would just be able to quickly find jobs in the private sector has absolutely not panned out for many workers.

20:37That's right. It's completely disruptive, and especially we've seen that in Virginia and Maryland. Virginia, we saw the economy actually shrink, and potentially that state may be going into a recession. that has political implications as Virginia has a gubernatorial race right now as well. But I think overall, this is an economy that already was, as Trump himself said during the campaign, had some issues. And he said he was running on the economy. Now we're seeing his numbers on the economy going the other way. It is not a strong issue for him anymore. That is unusual for a Republican president.

21:12And it's a response to what's happening in the economy. Now, inflation is another topic, it's another issue. And that is a factor for all of these workers that are worried about when they will get a paycheck. We think of federal workers perhaps as someone who are upper tier, making$100 ,000 and up. But no, many of them, including some in our military, are making just above minimum wage, some of them trying to get help from social services. So for those folks to miss a paycheck, if they do in just over a week or so, it will really put a huge burden on them and on their local economies. And again, this isn't just limited to the D.C.

21:46region. this is happening across the country. 80 % of federal workers, Maxine, correct me, something like that work outside of the Washington State. 80 to 85%, yes. Thank you. Let's take a quick pause here. We'll be back with more in a moment. Stay with us.

22:03I want to get to this email from Jason who says, people get laid off all the time and nobody says a thing, but when it's federal employees, we're supposed to care and be concerned because people don't have money. And this has been a common sentiment among some. since the Trump administration began these actions? And Max, I'm just curious to hear your response. Well, I think it's a really important insight that many Americans don't understand what our government does for them. And we've been doing research at the partnership for over six years to understand why trust in government and other institutions has been going down.

22:39And largely it's because, again, of this lack of information. When you say federal government, people think bickering politicians in Washington. and they don't think about them as their neighbor in a small town in New York. And so that lack of information, federal employees have been invisible. That's been a real problem for a very long time. What's worse today is we have an administration that's trying to erase them, and that is a much, much more prominent and difficult problem to have to address. Now, the quote you read there I think is fundamental. It is different when federal employees are fired because they are there for the public good, And it is different when they're being fired for bad reasons.

23:17As you just heard, someone who's trying to get rid of waste, fraud, and abuse has been fired not because they were a poor performer, not because the job is not important, but because there's a larger point that needs to be made by this administration, and that is they want to convert a merit-based, nonpartisan civil service into one that is pliant to this president's personal agenda. That's taking us back over 140 years to the spoil system, to a world in which we had a government that was incompetent, corrupt, and that ultimately led to the assassination of a president. It is not the world we want to live in.

23:47It's not the world that I think the American people actually voted for, not according to what our polling shows, but that is where we're being driven towards. And this shutdown is a big step in that direction. Eileen, just give us a little more insight into some of the agencies that have been impacted by these layoffs and that are having direct impact on Americans' lives, whether it's through the description of, you know, trying to make sure SNAP benefits aren't being abused or it's, you know, food being checked for safety. What can you tell us? Well, I mean, I think that's a really good question.

24:25And I get the sense that agencies are still trying to sort of piece together where the vacancies are, because when people left, It wasn't in an organized way where we're losing this percent from this program and this percent from another. So everyone's really trying to figure out how to fill these vacancies and what to do. And so questions about safety inspections, it's not just whether the inspectors are still working. The fact that a lot of them have, in one agency, have lost their right to collective bargaining changes the way they raise concerns about food inspections. So normally they would feel protected by their union that they could say, I'm concerned about this product, please pull it off the line, and not fear repercussions from their managers.