'If You Can Keep It': The Layoffs At The Departments Of State And Education

0:07This is the 1A Podcast. I'm Jen White. And I'm Todd Zwilich, back again for the latest in our If You Can Keep It series, where we explore what the political news you hear means for our democracy. Two Supreme Court decisions this month allowed the Trump administration to move forward with significant layoffs, including at the Departments of Education and State. They're part of an ongoing reduction in workforce across every agency. More than 100 ,000 federal jobs have been lost so far. And it's all in the name of reform, according to the Trump administration. but it also signals major losses of institutional knowledge and highly specific expertise.

0:45For example, the State Department laid off senior intelligence analysts specializing in Russia and Ukraine right as the U.S. ramps up its maneuvering to encourage Vladimir Putin to agree to a peace deal. And at the Department of Education, the Federal Student Aid Office, they're responsible for administering student loans and Pell Grants, they lost hundreds of people. how will they manage the government's$1.7 trillion loan portfolio? That's where we'll start today, right after this.

1:19Let's get into it with our guests. With us from New Jersey is Rachel Gittleman. In March, she was laid off from her role as an analyst in the Ombudsman's Office of Federal Student Aid at the Department of Education. Her official last day will be August 1st. Rachel, welcome to the program. Thank you for having me. And joining us in studio at WAMU in Washington, Laura Meckler, National Education Writer for The Washington Post. Laura, great to have you back. Thanks for having me here. And we invited representatives from both the Departments of Education and State to join this discussion. Neither responded.

1:53So, Rachel, just first walk us through a typical day in your role at the Ombudsman's office before the layoffs in March. Sure. I think you started it perfectly by saying, you know, it's a$1.7 trillion debt load and 42 million borrowers. That meant that each day was different, right? We helped borrowers. My job was in the ombudsman's office. So what I did was help borrowers navigate that system. I like to refer to the ombudsman's office as the backstop of the federal student aid system. We were there when and borrowers had nowhere else to turn. So we helped borrowers navigate public service loan forgiveness.

2:33We helped borrowers apply for and get total and permanent disability discharge. We helped borrowers who had been misrepresented or misled by their schools apply for borrower defense discharges. We helped borrowers get out of default, right? Something that is really important right now. And we helped borrowers who, again, had been failed by the system already, right? These were not borrowers who had, this was their first interaction with the system. They had tried many times to get the help and access the programs that they are entitled to and had been failed by the system already and were turning to us as a last resort.

3:22So, Laura Meckler, Rachel is among the nearly 1 ,400 workers who were initially laid off by the Trump administration in March as part of a broader effort to ultimately dismantle the agency altogether. That's ongoing, and we'll talk about that. That was about a third of the education department staff at the time, and those layoffs were put on pause by a judge in Massachusetts. Then the Supreme Court stepped in and said that many of the layoffs can go ahead, and that's happened in the last couple of weeks. bring us up to date on the administration's effort to dismantle the Department of Education in its entirety?

3:58Well, the administration acknowledges that they cannot actually close the department without an act of Congress. The Congress created the Department of Education back in 1979, and only Congress can eliminate it. That said, they're working hard to try to, as you said, dismantle it or diminish it from within. And that has taken a bunch of different forms. most dramatically has been this massive reduction in employees. Because in addition to the rifts, the layoffs that we were just talking about, there's also where voluntary departures. So when you add that all up together, about half of the workers at the Department of Education are gone.

4:37Some of them are still being paid, but none of them are actually on the job. So that's obviously whenever you cut half your workforce, that's going to have a significant impact. They also have unilaterally canceled a lot of grants and contracts, and that has had an impact on a variety of programs. Now, we should say that the big programs that they administer, certainly on the K-12 side, such as Title I, which aids high poverty schools or aid for students with disabilities, those are still going on, and they're not trying to cut those. But the education department has dozens of other types of programs that support mental health, English language learners, teacher training that do research.

5:18All of these things have been, if not completely eliminated, then, you know, massively shrunk. Rachel, you told us your office had a backlog of 16 ,000 complaints when you were laid off. So what does that mean for the people who filed those complaints? They're still waiting. They're still waiting for answers. They're still waiting for assistance. They're still waiting to get help navigating the system. And I think it's important to add to what Laura was just saying, that, you know, in addition to, so a lot of the programs that have been allegedly untouched by these RIFs, right? FAFSA, for example.

5:53The FAFSA team did not see any actual RIFs. But the thing about a system as large as the federal student aid system or the Department of Education in general is that no one operates in silos. All of our systems are incredibly intertwined and interconnected. And so even in our department, you know, I answered borrower complaints, but I worked with people throughout the entire federal student aid system to execute that relief for borrowers, whatever that relief was, whether it was navigating a forgiveness program or discharge program or even just trying to access an income-driven repayment plan.

6:28And so even though some of the external talking points have said, you know, this department is untouched by the rifts, first of all, every department was affected by one of the voluntary buyout programs or VERA or just attrition because of the climate at the department and the pressure to leave, right? There was a lot of pressure to leave voluntarily. And then I think the other thing to keep in mind is that none of these systems operate in silos. And so even though there are some grant programs that are completely, quote unquote, untouched, they can't operate as effectively as they once did because they fired most of our general counsel.

7:17They fired a lot of our IT divisions, right? Some of those really critically important people who help support these programs. Well, Rachel, let's hear from the people in charge. Linda McMahon used to be the CEO of World Wrestling. She's now the Secretary of Education, and she was on CBS News last week. The Department of Education doesn't educate anyone. It doesn't decide on curricula. It doesn't hire teachers. It doesn't buy books. It's a pass-through agency for money that is appropriated by Congress. Rachel, your reaction to your former boss there?

8:00I had not heard that yet before. The Department of Education does a lot for a lot of people across the education system, everything from pre-K through adult education, through federal student loans. And even if it's not directly educating people, it has a massive impact in the ability to educate people. Well, Laura, I want to bring you in here because this is something we hear from the Trump administration often about. We're returning education back to the states. Just dismantle that idea for us and help us better understand the responsibility states already hold over their public school systems.

8:42Yeah, I'm always a little bit puzzled by that, which President Trump says that a lot, that he's returning education to the states. I mean, it's important to note, as Secretary McMahon said there, I mean, education is run by the states and local school boards. The federal government plays a supporting role, but we aren't really returning education to the states exactly. There have been times in our history, such as during the No Child Left Behind period, where there was a much more active federal role, but that has already been rolled back. So I think there's a little bit of a misnomer here about what we're returning to the states.

9:16That said, there is a role for the federal government. So it's interesting what Secretary McMahon said in that soundbite that you played that were there to where a pass through for money appropriated by Congress. But yet there is a lot of money that's been appropriated by Congress that they are stopping and they are not, in fact, passing through. And I would just make one other point, which is something we haven't talked about yet. A major role that the Department of Education has is to enforce civil rights laws. It's against the law if you receive federal funds to discriminate on the basis of race, sex, disability and other factors.

9:48And it's the job of the Office for Civil Rights to enforce those laws. But the Office for Civil Rights has been cut in half through these staff reductions. And there are massive backlogs. There already were case backlogs that were pretty big to start with. And obviously, those are growing. Seven of the 12 regional offices have been closed. And at the same time that we do see the Trump administration sort of aggressively enforcing civil rights laws when it comes to higher education and, say, anti-Semitism or their interpretation of race discrimination, i.e. DEI. So there is a lot going on there, too.

10:27Rachel, in just a quick sentence or two, what's next for you? I take it day by day trying to figure out that exact question. That's Rachel Gittleman. She was recently laid off from her job as an analyst in the Ombudsman's Office of Federal Student Aid. Rachel, thanks for sharing your story with us. Thank you. Let's go back to our inbox. This comes from Chris, who's worked in the federal government since 1987 collecting and analyzing education data. The thing that keeps me up at night isn't the loss of my job. I mean, I had to take care of myself, sell my house, work on my finances so that I will be able to do this years earlier than I had planned.

11:05But the thing that really bothers me is the loss of decades of work. And this goes on before the actual establishment of the Department of Education. The statistical agency actually existed before the founding of the Department of Education. And so we've been collecting data for decades. And these data, you know, are threatened, but they will be eliminated as they eliminated most of the staff. Basically, the cut was 97 % of the staff. So that's pretty shocking in an organization that was understaffed to begin with. we're all really bright, really motivated, mission-driven people wanting to serve the public.

11:44That's what public service means. Chris, thanks for sharing that with us. Laura, we hear there from Chris concern about a loss of data and information. Help us better understand the role the Department of Education played in collecting data, helping us understand where American students were in their learning processing around reading, writing, math, etc. Yes. I mean, she's absolutely right. There was a severe cut to the Institute for Education Sciences, which is the data collection and analysis wing of the department. There are just a handful of people left now. And they also severely cut the contracts that they had out.

12:25Much of the work was done by contractors, and they eliminated a lot of these contracts just sort of on a dime. So in some cases, those are research projects that are looking to try to answer a question like, what's the best way to teach reading in this situation? Or how is this cohort of preschoolers doing who had this particular intervention? In some cases, you had research projects that were meant to go over, say, a seven-year period, and they were canceled in year six, which a lot of people thought that doesn't make a lot of sense. We've already invested money in the first five, six years, and then you're just going to not see it through.

13:01So there's that side of it. On the other side, there's this core data that the department collects that tells us sort of just the basics about American schools, the demographics of schools, how many schools there are, how many teachers there are, what kind of classes are offered. This is how we're able to analyze our schools and know, like, for instance, about racial achievement gaps. We know that because we know what the racial breakdown is of the student body, and we know what those test scores show us. And that, I should say, is another piece, testing, which is the National Assessment of Educational Progress or the NAEP, sometimes called the Nation's Report Card.

13:39Now, they are continuing with the NAEP. They have had some cutbacks on it, but the core of it is continuing. But there still is a lot of concern because there's almost nobody working at the department itself to help manage it. So the contract is still in place, but you need someone at the agency to review what they do to make sure it gets disseminated to Congress and to the public. So there is a lot of concern about very deep cuts at that research arm of the department. Now, in March, President Trump signed an executive order to eliminate the Department of Education entirely. Here's what he said.

14:10We're going to be returning education very simply back to the states where it belongs. And this is a very popular thing to do. But much more importantly, it's a common sense thing to do. And it's going to work. Absolutely, it's going to work. Now, Laura, you've already described education is already controlled in the states. We sort of talked about that a few minutes ago. But beyond the layoffs, what additional steps have we seen the president take toward his stated goal of eliminating the department entirely? And I just want to add in terms of, yes, it is largely in the states. But there is a federal role, and the things that the federal government does, the states really can't do on their own, most of them.

14:50The states can't enforce federal civil rights laws. The states aren't going to run the federal student loan program. The states aren't going to distribute Pell Grants. So, you know, there is that just because most of it's run by the states already doesn't mean that they can do everything. The federal government has been withholding, as of earlier this month,$6 billion in federal grants for after-school and summer programs. I think a small part of that was released. Yes. That's a lot of money. The after-school money was released. But yes, it is a lot of money. So this is money that the states are counting on.

15:23They also, there was money, the tail end of the COVID relief money that they had, and they still had a little while longer to spend it. They said, nope, you're done. And they cut it off just like as of that day and said, we're no longer. That was billions of dollars as well. There are other programs that they have just sort of unilaterally terminated. So, yes, those are all the ways that they're working to do it. They're also – they often talk about moving core functions of the Department of Education to other agencies. For instance, President Trump has mused about moving the student loan program to the Small Business Administration.

15:57There's also talk about maybe moving it to the Treasury Department. And it actually also takes an act of Congress to do that. But they – nonetheless, they're a little less eager to acknowledge that. And they do seem to be talking and working behind the scenes to try to see what they can do to start moving some of these things. So, for instance, they disclosed in a court ruling that there are nine education department employees who work on the student loan program who have been detailed to Treasury. So, now that isn't moving the whole thing, but you can see perhaps the breadcrumbs of laying the groundwork to try to do that.

16:35Laura, how are states responding to these changes and what it may mean for the way they function or are able to fulfill the needs of their students? Well, I think you certainly see concerns in individual school districts when they were benefiting from these programs. So if you're running an after-school program and suddenly, which also, by the way, runs over the summer, is a summer learning program, and suddenly that money disappears on you or you're trying to plan for the fall and you don't know whether you're going to have funding for your program, Yeah, you're concerned. If you're using your COVID relief money because you have physicians that are funded as a reading interventionist to help kids try to catch up in reading or in math, and suddenly that funding is just pulled, how are you going to pay those people?

17:16You were counting on that money. So I think that that's where we're seeing the response on the local level is that, you know, all of these programs are talked about in sort of billions here and billions there and this topic and that topic. But all of that money does actually go down to actual school administrators, principals, teachers who are trying to do this work. Is that response at the local level happening in red states too? Like I get the politics that you just mentioned. Red state legislators and governors are loath to criticize the president. We get that. That's the politics. But they rely on this money too.

17:47Their constituents rely on this money too. And their county supervisors and superintendents rely on it. Is there any upward pressure in those places? You know, I don't think it—they're not happy about it either, obviously. You know, the individual school district, doesn't matter what state you're in, if you lose funding, you're not happy about it. I don't know if it would necessarily have translated to the level of pressure. I think part of the reason is because there's so much happening in the Trump administration right now. There's so many things that people are upset about. You're talking about two of them on this show, but there are, you know, dozens of things on—it seems like any given day that I think it's sometimes hard to break through.

18:24So what are you watching next as this story continues to play out? I mean, all of the above, everything that we've talked about here. You know, I want to see, first of all, will the Trump administration try to even get more aggressive by moving some of these major programs into other agencies and really challenging? Now, again, a lot of people say you can't do that, but they've done a lot of things that people say you can't do. And some of them, they've been allowed to continue by the Supreme Court. They've won more than they've lost at the Supreme Court. So I'll definitely be looking for that.

18:53I'll be looking to see whether these programs get restored or whether they just sort of disappear. And also, specifically, I'm very interested at the Office for Civil Rights. You know, how is this going to, as those backlogs grow, you know, what eventually we are going to start seeing impacts, I think we already are, on individual families, individual cases. And, you know, what is the ramification for kids who can't get the help that they need? That's Laura Meckler. She's a national education writer for The Washington Post. Laura, thanks so much. Thanks so much for having me. We have to take a quick break, but when we come back, we turn to what cuts at the State Department mean for U.S.

19:34diplomacy. Stay with us.

19:40Let's turn now to the latest at the State Department. A week and a half ago, workers gathered there in a show of support for the more than 1 ,300 employees who were laid off by the Trump administration. Akbar Shahid Ahmed, senior diplomatic correspondent at HuffPost, was there, and he joins us now from St. Louis. Akbar, welcome to the program. Thanks for having me. So take us to the scene on July 11th at the State Department. It's downtown Washington, D.C. What struck you as you watched career state employees carry their belongings out of the building? It was an unbelievably stunning scene, Chan, because this is the heart of American diplomacy.

20:17You know, this is the building where foreign leaders and officials come. This is where presidents visit. And to kind of talk about the importance of American foreign influence, national power. And you're seeing people just coming out, many of them weeping. Some of them striding out quite confidently. But essentially, it's one by one this really brutal ejection, you know. And that kind of mirrored the way this whole process went, where people were not even laid off in the same moment. It was throughout the day. You had a large group of former State Department employees, some of whom had already taken a buyout offer, some had left previously, outside kind of waiting to receive some of these people.

21:02And some people did walk directly out of the building into that kind of crowd that was holding up signs, saying things like diplomacy makes America work, talking about the importance of expertise, career service. But you really had some people who just seemed overbound. And that also reflects the fact that while there had been rumblings of a mass layoff at the State Department and plans underway, many of the people who were fired on that day were not expecting it and did not have time to prepare it, to pass on their knowledge, expertise, contacts. And it was just kind of unreal to even talk to.

21:40I spoke with some of the employees who walked out. And these are people who did not go into their jobs expecting some big paycheck, right? They sort of thought of themselves as real public servants, many of them weeping, some of them angry and defiant. And that scene will stick with me as a moment of also solidarity. You had a lot of USAID employees there. Well, Akbar, let's actually hear from one of the employees who was there with you when you were reporting. Michael Duffin worked as a senior policy advisor at the Bureau of Counterterrorism. counterterrorism. And he was laid off from the State Department.

22:14And he spoke at that rally that you described in support of laid off employees. No one at the State Department would disagree with the need for reform. But arbitrarily laying off people like me and others, irrespective of their performance, is not the right way to do it. Like others impacted by these cuts, I have two young kids at home who depend on my salary. The mass firing of federal employees and overall cuts and foreign assistance has made it difficult for many of us to find employment in the private sector. But we are resilient and will roll up our sleeves. We have no alternative. Now, the Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, he disagrees that the layoffs are, quote, arbitrary.

22:53He spoke to reporters in the days after the Supreme Court gave the go-ahead for the cuts. Our reduction in force was done, I'm very proud to say, I think, I would argue, probably in the most deliberate way of anyone that's done one. We went very specifically through and reorganized the State Department. And when you reorganize the State Department, there were certain bureaus we wanted to empower the regional bureaus. And there were certain bureaus, these functional bureaus that were closed. And so it made sense. So that's been notified to Congress and to the workforce for some period of time. So Akbar, Secretary Rubio says these layoffs were strategic, deliberate, all part of the plan, and not arbitrary.

23:33Does that square with what you found in your reporting? That's not the case, Todd. I mean, the State Department itself has conceded that at least 3%, so that's around 130 at least of these firings occurred in error. And the department has said, well, when you do a mass layoff, that's going to happen. We've also seen Michael Regas, one of the advisors, Secretary Rubio, testified in Congress last week. And he kind of put forward a number of inconsistencies. He said that the department cut no consular officers. In fact, 104 were terminated. Nearly 100 had already left. So I think while the administration is certainly tapping a longstanding and quite accurate narrative that yes, the department could be leaner, slimmed down, more focused, the fact that they did it in this rushed way makes it hard for them to defend what's happened.

24:25And I think you're going to see that play out in the next weeks and months because a lot of these people want to try to get their jobs back. And once these functions are not being performed, I think the U.S. government is going to start missing them. Well, that echoes a message we got from Pat in Michigan who says, years ago, my late husband and others were retired by a major corporation. They were told they could hire recent college graduates for less. Five months later, they contacted my husband and others to please come back to train those new hires to show them how to get the job done. He said, No, thank you.