Surveillance: What Fleets Of Flock Cameras Mean For American Privacy

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0:31If you've driven lately, or maybe you're driving right now, there's a good chance your car's license plate has been snapped by a Flock camera. The small black solar-powered cameras are typically attached to poles or stoplights near local roads. The private company behind them, Flock Safety, has amassed more than 120 ,000 surveillance cameras spread across every U.S. state but Alaska. Flock scans and records tens of billions of photos of license plates each month. And with the help of AI, police can search by color, make, model, even bumper stickers, all without a warrant. I'm Jen White. You're listening to the 1A Podcast.

1:12As the backlash to Flock cameras grows, how are cities responding? And what does the debate over Flock cameras tell us about the balance between public safety and privacy rights? That and more after this.

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2:07Drivers who save with Jerry could save over$1 ,300 a year. Don't overpay. Download the Jerry app or visit jerry.ai slash npr today. This message comes from BetterHelp. Imagine carrying a backpack every day. It is easy not to notice how heavy it is until someone asks if there's a desire to put it down. Therapy can help lighten what has been carried. Visit BetterHelp.com slash NPR. Let's meet our guest. Joseph Cox is an investigative reporter and co-founder of 404 Media. Joseph, thanks for joining us. Thank you for having me. And we'll note we did invite Flock Safety to take part in this conversation, but they declined.

2:48Automatic license plate readers aren't new, Joseph. That's the technology highway authorities use to bill drivers on toll roads. Parking garages use them to track cars when they enter, how much they should pay when they leave. But FLOC cameras are different because they record every license plate that drives by and puts them in a searchable database that allows police officers across the country to quickly see a record of where that car has been. What case does FLOC make for that level of surveillance? I mean, the argument from Flock is that it is basically offering a very new, interesting capability in that rather the ALPR data being restricted to one police department or one state or one jurisdiction, you can have a cop in, say, Texas perform a search of cameras nationwide.

3:35nationwide. And of course, that will include cameras not just in their own state, but potentially in California or Illinois or anywhere else across the country. That is sort of the real benefit that Flock believes it brings with this product and this technology. Of course, also that national network that other surveillance vendors don't offer is also somewhat the center of the controversy around this company as well. And explain more. Well, there's another company called Axon, which is a very large law enforcement contractor that makes the taser that I'm sure people are familiar with. And they sell license plate readers as well, and they're very big as well.

4:14They don't have a national network. Agencies can share between different departments if they wish to do so, but Flock has this network in that, as I said, you can have a cop in one jurisdiction search cameras in another. What we found is that local cops were then using that national network to do searches on behalf of ICE, for example, or for a Texas cop specifically to search cameras nationwide for a woman who self-administered an abortion. And that's really the crux, I think, that started off this national conversation about license plate readers, is that some states don't want that. Some states don't want cops from other jurisdictions reaching into their cameras and searching them.

5:00Well, DFLOC is this open source map where volunteers can identify and document the locations of automated license plate readers like FLOC cameras. Here's what the site's founder, Will Freeman, told CNN. There are instances, quite a few instances of stalking by users of the FLOC system and also people being falsely implicated in crimes. It happened here in Denver. It wasn't too serious. It was a package theft. But they relied entirely on Flock evidence and not any of the other evidence. And that ended up with a woman having to prove her own innocence. And there have been more serious incidents where people were held at gunpoint on the ground because they thought it was a stolen car.

5:40So, yeah, you see law enforcement rely very heavily on Flock and similar vendors rather than doing like a full investigation. Joseph, how did Flock become the dominant automatic license plate reader in the market? I think it's really interesting because they actually kind of started with homeowners associations. And this technology used to really be only available to federal government agencies. Then it did become available to, you know, highway patrols and state agencies and eventually local ones. FLOC did it the other way around where they started with homeowners associations. Then they branched out into local departments as well.

6:18They sort of tackled it the other way around. And they are very much focused on that local angle. They don't really have many federal contracts at all. They have done some pilot programs with federal agencies, like giving ICE direct access or the Secret Service as well. But they did it much more from sort of the ground up. And I think that was probably pretty effective for FLOC in building such a very large footprint across the United States. And when we think about that footprint, Block doesn't publicly share the locations of all of its cameras, but there are volunteers who are recording and publicizing the locations of those cameras.

6:56How are they finding them? Yeah, so people either just identify themselves visually when they are driving or walking down the street or whatever. The cameras are pretty distinctive looking. Or you can also do public records requests like we did and researchers did as well, which can give you the location of all of these cameras. It gives you the location, potentially, and also the reason that these cameras are being used. To Flock's credit, that is because the company is quite transparent when it comes to its auditing tools. You know, the company is creating this paper trail that us as journalists can then go and request from police departments and use it that way.

7:36It's just that, you know, I imagine Flock isn't so happy with its transparency approach now because it is causing a lot of focus to be on this company. While we're hearing from you, so many males, the only ones that have to be concerned about these cameras are the people who are doing something wrong. So what's the problem? Now, we should note that in recent months, at least 50 police officers have been charged with or accused of misusing FLOC's database and other surveillance systems. That's according to an analysis by The Washington Post. And more than half of those incidents targeted women.

8:07We'll talk more about that in a moment, Joseph. But what are some of the legal ways police departments use FLOC cameras? Some of the legal ways are that, you know, it would be a very useful tool for finding a missing person, maybe somebody who has been kidnapped. Flock says it has been used in murder investigations as well. And I think that brings up, you know, a pretty important point, which is that, yes, it's really, really good, apparently, for finding missing people. And a key part of that is that it does not require a warrant. There is no sort of judicial approval going on here. You're not going to a judge and saying, hey, please approve this search so I can do that.

8:50So they're able to move very, very quickly when a law enforcement officer uses this tool. But as you allude to some of the abuses, it also leaves plenty of room for cops to abuse access to this system because they don't need to go get a warrant. Well, for instance, a police officer in Texas used Flock's cameras to track a woman across state lines who he suspected of receiving an out-of-state abortion. And at least 50 law enforcement officers across the country have been fired, and they're facing criminal charges for misusing Flock, including for stalking women. At this point in time, what safeguards, if any, does Flock have in place to prevent that sort of conduct?

9:25Yeah, so in June, we've reported that this was really a national issue when it came to police officers abusing access to their flock cameras. Since then, and since the Washington Post report as well, flockers introduced more safeguards where it's going to hold onto data for a shorter amount of time. So theoretically, if there is abuse, you know, abusive police officers are going to be able to access less information about their ex-wife or girlfriend or boyfriend or whoever it is they're stalking. They are mandating the use of auditing tools as well, so police departments will be in a better position to find employees and co-workers who are abusing their access.

10:05Of course, that doesn't address the fundamental concern that I hear from civil rights experts and libertarians and liberties experts in that there is still no sort of legal requirement to use this tool and capability. is it is really at the whim of the individual user, in this case, a police officer. Well, you might not have noticed a flat camera on your local roads, but you may have come across videos on social media of people vandalizing the cameras. One of those vandals is a young man who goes by the name Nomark. He's amassed nearly a million followers across Instagram and TikTok, posting videos of himself disabling flat cameras in the Minneapolis area while he's masked.

10:45Here's what he told 1A. My name is Nomark. I'm from Minneapolis and I've been fighting against Flock cameras for about three months now. I've been doing a lot of different things like posting videos online, talking about what they're doing, trying to bring awareness to it, and then actually going out and doing stuff to get rid of Flock. I've hosted protests. I had one here in Minneapolis earlier in the month where a few hundred people showed up protesting against these cameras. There's people very passionate about wanting to get rid of these cameras. I don't like what Flock is doing. I don't like how they're kind of essentially setting up a surveillance state.

11:24They track, you know, everybody, you know, regardless if they're suspected of a crime or not, they're being severely misused and no one wants them. And yet they still keep popping up in our city and we can't get rid of them. Like no one, no one chose, no one voted for this. No one chose to have these. They just appeared without our consent, and we can't get rid of them. I know there's so many cities that are pushing back against its own citizens to keep these things up. But that's why there's people like me out here who are pushing back, fighting back, because they're so hated. We'll hear more from No Mark a bit later.

12:00We're talking to Joseph Cox. He's an investigative reporter and co-founder of 404 Media. And we're hearing from you. Emily emails, I live in Newport, Kentucky, right across the water from Cincinnati. While Newport recently ended their contract with Flock Cameras, the city of Cincinnati continues to use them, as do other cities in the area. Like many in northern Kentucky, I work and spend quite a bit of time in Cincinnati. It almost feels futile to end a contract with Flock Cameras in one small town, only to cross into another town and be under the surveillance from those cameras. Are there conversations happening on a regional basis or even on a state and federal basis to address this on a larger level?

12:38Well, coming up, we get into the response at the local, state, and national levels. Stay with us.

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14:11We've dropped the Dolly Fresh Air interview on the NPR app and wherever you listen to podcasts. Let's get back into the conversation and add another voice. With us now is Michael Seufer. He's an attorney at the Institute for Justice. That's a nonprofit public interest law firm. Michael, welcome to 1A. Thank you for having me. Katie emails, I live in Columbia, South Carolina, and my job requires travel. So now I see new cameras going up every week at the main intersections around and outside the city. There was a city hearing in Irmo the other week where a man spoke out against the camera installations, but it was barreled through regardless.

14:47When I hear people tearing them down, I can't help but feel vicarious satisfaction.

15:04So Katie there describes Irmo pushing through a plan to put up block cameras. But Joseph, since the start of 2026, more than 160 cities have canceled their contracts with the company. 90 of those cancellations happened in August of this year alone. That's according to Secure Justice and Anti-Surveillance Advocacy Group. Why are so many cities cutting ties with bloc right now? It really is a culmination of all of the issues that we've been bringing up in our coverage and then other outlets as well. ICE performing these lookups through cops, the abortion search, the abuse by police officers as well.

15:42And, you know, you did mention that a lot of people are vandalizing these cameras. I would say the vast majority of people opposing them are simply going to city council meetings or voicing their opinion that way. The vandalism is spreading, but I still think that most people are voicing them in sort of more ordinary ways. Although while some cities are ditching flock cameras, often because of this national network I mentioned, several of the cities that we found are switching over to Axon now. So a lot of residents of some of these cities are still going to have license plate readers in their local communities.

16:19It's now sort of up to them to decide, well, do we also want an Axon camera here as well? Well, we should note that Block told Ars Technica, quote, So far in 2026, new city partnership have outpaced non-renewals by approximately 10 to 1. So, Joseph, what does that signal to you about the demand for this technology and especially access to that national network, despite documented cases of misuse and community pushback? Oh, I think law enforcement agencies on the state and a local level especially really do value this technology. It absolutely does afford them all sorts of surveillance and investigative benefits.

17:00Again, they can just tap into the system essentially whenever they want without a warrant. I can absolutely see the investigative benefit and why agencies would want it and why the cities would want it as well. it's another question of whether residents are going to be comfortable there as well. Michael, the law firm you work for represents several clients who are challenging the government's power to deploy license plate readers across their cities. Walk us through what's at issue in these cases. That's right. So the Supreme Court has said that people have a reasonable expectation of privacy in their physical movements.

17:35And over the past roughly eight years, it's sort of developed a test in a series of cases to try to distinguish you know, conventional police surveillance techniques from unconventional dragnet surveillance technologies that just conflict with our expectations of privacy we have in our public movements. The Supreme Court has made clear that, you know, it's not the case that the second you leave your door, you're just open to any and all police surveillance. And so the claim in our cases is that these cameras, when they're set up in extensive systems, they're collecting troves of information about lots of totally innocent people's movements.

18:18That violates the Fourth Amendment. It violates a reasonable expectation of privacy that we all have in our physical movements. We got this question from Dick who emails, why don't police limit the camera data to local only? Or would that be possible? And what I'm hearing, Joseph, from you is that in some cases, Some cities are going with companies that do provide only that local footprint of data. There are some companies that are still going to FLOC for the national database as well. Has FLOC put in place any parameters around what police are able to access? Yeah, I would say that if you're a police department or a city that is using FLOC, You can still sort of opt out of the national database that is an option for these agencies and cities to do.

19:08That said, when we were reporting the story about cops doing lookups for ICE, we were calling police departments saying, hey, we have your license plate reader records here. It shows that cops are searching your cameras from across the country on behalf of ICE. And frankly, these police officers had no idea what we were talking about. They did not understand the power of the national network, and there was clearly an education problem here from Flock to some of its law enforcement customers where, yes, these law enforcement agencies could opt out of the national network, but some of them don't even know that's a possibility.

19:42So there's also an issue there. Well, and Michael, is the case you're making with your plaintiffs, is it the issue of surveillance or is it at all, like even at the local level, or is it really this concern about this national surveillance network? it's about the surveillance regardless of whether it's national or local um you know people who aren't reasonably suspected of any crime are being surveilled or having their movements tracked and collected in an ai-assisted database um that's oftentimes accessible to every single police police officer in a department um it's obviously worse if it's accessible to police officers all across the country, but it's a Fourth Amendment violation, whether it's our own local police doing it or it's a police department somewhere else.

20:34We got this email from Susan who says, I live and work in Louisville, Kentucky. I honestly don't understand all the uproar over this issue. Here we have children killing children with guns at bus stops. A flat camera was able to assist in finding the perpetrators in the most recent incident. I just feel that if you carry a cell phone, and who doesn't, you are trackable or traceable. If you aren't doing anything wrong, why would it matter? Michael, what do your plaintiffs say in response to that sentiment? That's just fundamentally inconsistent with our values, the values embodied in the Fourth Amendment.

21:07The Fourth Amendment requires police to have suspicion before they collect information about us, before they invade our privacy, not the other way around. Flock cameras turn that upside down. As for the point about cell phones, yes, your cell phone is tracking you. That's going to a private company. It's not immediately accessible to the government. And over the past eight years, the Supreme Court has repeatedly said that if the government wants to track your location using your cell phone, they need a warrant. Well, a few weeks ago, Flock issued new guidance for police departments who use its license plate database.

21:41Here's how Flock's founder and CEO, Garrett Langley, described the reasoning behind the update. Without a reasonable doubt, Flock has helped so many cities, thousands of cities, reduce their crime. And the question people are asking, which is right, is what is the cost of that crime reduction? And I think as we continue to evolve as a business, as we continue to grow in our response, we want to continue to push privacy forward too. And so for us, these changes are the next chapter of a long book I hope to right on how we build a better version of America that's both safer, protects our privacy, and holds those who have power accountable.

22:21And we should note that there are currently no publicly available independent studies analyzing the effect of Flock cameras on crime. But Joseph, walk us through what these recent changes entail. Yeah, so the recent changes are very much about the amount of data and the time at which Flock is going to hold on to this information. It was traditionally around 30 days, and now it's going to be reduced to seven days. So if an abusive cop is going to log into the system and start stalking their ex-wife or boyfriend or husband or whoever, there is going to be less data there to obviously follow this person's movements.

23:00So I would say that Flock has a habit of doing this in that there will be coverage like ours or the Washington Post or other outlets, and then they will introduce changes, such as when we reported on the ICE and abortion stuff, they removed California from the national network entirely for some time, and Illinois as well, and I think Virginia, if I'm remembering correctly. So Flock has a habit of doing this, of turning what is a scandal into essentially a PR opportunity where they can position themselves to say, hey, actually, look, we are much better than our competitors when it comes to this sort of thing.

23:34Michael, right after those updates were announced, Your organization, the Institute for Justice, issued a statement on the reforms calling them, quote, yet more window dressing. What were your critiques of these new safeguards? They don't really address the fundamental problem, which is warrantless mass surveillance of every driver in the country. Even with these changes, they're still feeding troves of data into an AI-assisted database. They're still making it available to police without a warrant. The fundamental reform that we need is the one that's spelled out in our Constitution, which is requiring police to go get a warrant before they invade our privacy.

24:16Even with FLOC's reforms, that just isn't required. Police still have the discretion to search for whatever they want whenever they want. We're hearing from you, Sean, in Kansas emails. What bothers me most is how easily people accept increasing levels of surveillance as long as they're told it's being done for public safety. History has repeatedly shown that governments usually introduce restrictions on privacy and individual liberties gradually, justified as necessary for security, safety, or the greater good. And once surveillance becomes normal, the conversation almost never seems to be about giving that power back.