The Fifth Anniversary Of The Jan. 6 Capitol Riot

0:00Support for NPR comes from NPR member stations and Eric and Wendy Schmidt through the Schmidt Family Foundation working toward a healthy, resilient, secure world for all. On the web at theschmidt.org.

0:21Five years ago today, on January 6th, 2021, thousands of rioters stormed the U.S. Capitol. Jimmy, get him to the back. Get him to the back. Get him to the back. Let's get some fresh faces up front.

0:41More than 170 rioters faced charges for assaulting police officers with weapons. Some of them called for war, revolution, and political executions, and even looted the Capitol building or used drugs inside of it. That's according to thousands of videos presented in court reviewed by NPR. One former federal prosecutor who led the Justice Department's investigation into January 6th called it the, quote, most televised crime in American history, if not world history. But the narrative around what happened that day continues to shift. I don't take any part in whitewashing January 6th. It wasn't a stroll through the Capitol.

1:19It was an attack on our Capitol. The people involved in violence should go to jail. Any effort by a news organization to try and portray what happened here is anything other than And a violent, disgusting attack on our nation's symbol of democracy is outrageous. I would like to begin by addressing the heinous attack on the United States Capitol. The demonstrators who infiltrated the Capitol have defiled the seat of American democracy. That was GOP Senator Lindsey Graham and former Senator Mitt Romney speaking in 2023, and President Trump the day after, January 6th, 2021. But here are more recent remarks from President Trump and House Speaker Mike Johnson from 2024 and 2025, respectively.

2:05The people that don't support a very small portion. That was a day of love from the standpoint of the millions. It's like hundreds of thousands. It could have been the largest group I've ever spoken before. Everybody can describe this however they want. The president has the pardon and commutation authority. It's his decision. And I think what was made clear all along is that peaceful protests and people who engage in that should never be punished. There was a weaponization of the Justice Department. There was a weaponization of the events, the following, you know, the prosecutions that happened after January 6th.

2:41President Trump pardoned or commuted the sentences of nearly every January 6th defendant. That includes granting clemency to more than 1 ,500 people in his second presidency, ending the largest criminal prosecution in U.S. history. What are we still learning about January 6th, five years later? And how is that day still shaping U.S. politics and the country? We get into it after the break. I'm Jen White. You're listening to the 1A Podcast. Stay with us. We've got a lot to get to.

3:12This message comes from the BBC with their podcast, The Global Story. With Asma Khalid in D.C. and Tristan Redman in London, The Global Story brings you daily news from where the world and America meet. Search for The Global Story from BBC Podcasts. Let's meet our panel. Joining us now are three journalists who were at the Capitol on January 6th. Mary Claire Jelanek is a reporter for the Associated Press. Her new book, Storm at the Capitol, An Oral History of January 6th, is out today. Mary Claire, welcome to the program. Thanks for having me. Also with us is Lisa Desjardins. She's a correspondent at PBS NewsHour.

3:51Lisa, it's always great to have you. Same here. Thank you. And Igor Bobik. He's a senior reporter for HuffPost covering Congress, the White House, and political campaigns. He was also in the 2021 documentary, Four Hours at the Capitol, about the January 6th insurrection. Igor, welcome to the program. Thanks for having me. So as I said, each of you were at the Capitol on January 6th when rioters stormed the building. And I want to start by hearing what you saw that day. Mary Claire, what do you recall? I was in the House Gallery. I think we were all in different places, actually, that day. I was in the House Gallery covering the certification, and we were sort of moved into another gallery as we were watching people try to beat down the doors below us with police, with guns drawn at the door.

4:39We were, you know, police were shouting at us to duck, trying to take video of it all happening as it happened. We heard Ashley Babbitt being shot as she tried to get into a rioter who was shot by police as she tried to get near to the House chamber as members were still inside. So it was definitely a dramatic day. Lisa, what about you? I was on the other side of the walls that Mary Claire was on. I was in the hallways with the rioters. At one point, I was watching them break through those thick brass doors on the east front steps that lead to the center of the Capitol. And I remember standing there, getting on my phone, trying to talk through it on television, not really understanding what I was seeing.

5:26And I remember standing there feeling safe because I knew how thick those doors were. I saw them crashing through. I saw the poles. I heard the screams. And then I saw that door start to buckle from the weight of the mob. And I had to recognize that they were about to break in. And so from that point on, I was basically with the rioters and interviewing them. My story gets a little complicated, but I was out in the hallways until eventually I too evacuated with lawmakers. Igor, what about you? What do you remember from January 6th? Well, I was in the Senate press gallery covering the certification as well, and I remember watching Senator James Lankford of Oklahoma thrown on on the Senate floor about why the election results ought to be thrown out when I heard this commotion and yelling and screaming, which was the moment when the first rioters had breached the Capitol.

6:21And I remember running downstairs and whipping out my phone and just recording this really historic moment of a lone Capitol Police officer confronting the mob, Eugene Goodman confronting the mob and eventually, you know, running with him alongside him as he led heroically the mob away from the Senate doors where the Senate was barred inside. And I remember interviewing some of the Capitol Police officers there and the rioters and kind of following them as they made their way, chanting for these lawmakers' heads. They were screaming, where are they? Where the bleep are they? Running around, slamming on doors, and eventually made it onto the Senate floor with them where they got up on the day where the vice president at the time, Mike Pence, had presided.

7:14screaming Trump won that election. It was all so horribly surreal. And it was definitely the scariest day of my professional career as a journalist, most of which has been spent reporting on Congress. And I don't think I've still fully processed it, honestly. Mary Claire, even though you were at the Capitol, you say there was still a lot you didn't know until days or even years later. What new information have you learned in the past five years about that attack. Yeah, I think what Igor said, I think, you know, still processing it. I think everyone is still sort of processing it just because there have been so many different narratives around this.

7:54And I think still reckoning with it in a lot of ways. When I compiled the oral history, I did it hour by hour. So I really had to sort of figure out exactly what happened in every hour. And I did learn a lot about exactly how the rioters approached the building, about how the police tried to defend it and how, you know, they found holes in those police lines. And they sort of exploited the vulnerabilities of the police to get in, you know, first in one entrance. And that's where Igor actually confronted some of the very first rioters to get into the building. But then as the day went on, more people got in through different entrances.

8:34So really reconstructing that was, I learned a lot. Has that reconstruction process helped you make sense of the day a bit more? Somewhat, yeah. And also just talking to lawmakers. I interviewed a lot of lawmakers for the book, including a lot of lawmakers who were there about three dozen Democrats who were up in the gallery with us because they were spacing for COVID, which is so unusual for any lawmakers to be in the gallery. And just talking to them about their experience, a lot of them are a lot more experienced in security matters than I am, should you say. you know, like Jason Crow is a former army ranger.

9:09Val Demings is a former Democratic congresswoman, and she was the former chief of the Orlando police. They all knew exactly what was happening, and they could sort of look at the situation and know where the rioters were, and they knew where the gunshot came from. I'm pretty naive, and you know, I'm used to covering policy and legislation. That was not my, you know, I didn't really totally process what was going on in the moment. So really being able to interview them and, you know, learn more about what they knew at the time and how they felt was interesting. Well, I want to play a clip of D.C.

9:39Capitol Police Officer Daniel Hodges, who was assaulted at the Capitol on January 6th. Here he is recently describing that experience to NPR. I could, you know, feel getting weaker and weaker, and I was afraid that I might, you know, lose consciousness or be killed there. You were afraid you could be killed? Oh, sure. Yeah. I was unable to help myself. I did the only thing I could do at that point, I started calling for help.

10:11More than 140 officers were injured on January 6th with some suffering traumatic brain injuries, crushed spinal discs and lacerations. Some were forced to leave the police force as a result of these sustained injuries. Lisa, what are you better understanding now about the longer-term effects of that attack? I think I'm with Igor. I'm still processing it to myself. I have actually never looked at my coverage from that day. You know, I've looked at a lot of material. I've had to, but I don't really—I just haven't wanted to look at my coverage. You know, if I had to, I would. But I think that, for me, there's still question of the fact that Congress and Republicans continue to want to ignore that day.

10:55And that is really part of the trauma that continues for Capitol Police especially. A President Trump has pardoned or commuted the sentences of nearly all January 6th defendants, effectively ending the largest criminal prosecution in U.S. history. What does that mean for the country's ability to fully reckon with the crimes committed that day? Rod writes, as someone who voted for every Republican presidential nominee from Reagan to Romney, I watched in horror on January 6th, knowing that Donald Trump was inviting and inciting the attempted overthrow of our government to stay in power. Anyone who still believes that Donald Trump was justified in his plot needs to realize that of the more than 1 ,000 witnesses who testified under oath for the January 6th committee, only two were not Republicans.

11:37We'll be right back.

11:43Let's get back to the conversation. And Igor, I want to take a moment and revisit the facts of what happened on January 6th, considering the way the narrative has shifted over time. Yeah, absolutely. I think that these anniversaries come and go, but it's important to talk about it because the ongoing effort to rewrite history is still before us. Even as we speak, the president is still punishing those who are daring to tell the truth. Right now, he's using his powers to strip funding for federal programs and protest of the state of Colorado and its decision not to transfer to federal penitentiary.

12:33Somebody who, one of his allies, Tina Peters, who sought to protect his interests there in terms of voter fraud and things like that. And you see to this day, just a couple of weeks ago, So people testifying, Trump nominees testifying at the Capitol for judicial postings, people looking to be judges who are afraid or unwilling to say that Joe Biden won the 2020 election fairly. And it's really this kind of heartbreaking trend that we haven't really fully reckoned yet with. And I worry about where we are as a country going forward when truth becomes eroded like this because it sets such an awful precedent.

13:19And Lisa, we should remind people that the January 6th Select Committee did an extensive investigation. They shared that with the public. It was televised. So there was opportunity for people to see a full TikTok of what happened across that day. But what do you think are the most important facts for people to remember? There was a large mob that approached the Capitol, and it came after President Trump spoke to them about, with his lie about the election being stolen. We know that they crashed in and broke into the Capitol. We know they had weapons. We know some of them had guns. Not saying that all of them or many of them had guns, but we know some of them had guns.

13:59We know that they used anything they could as weapons to violently attack the Capitol and police. I will also say, yes, we do know that some of them weren't violent. I saw many walking around who were in a daze, didn't know what they were doing. But the point is even those people were participating and I spoke to them, wanted to illegally take over the US Capitol. That is, I don't know how else to put it, a threat to democracy and the running of democracy. We know they were there for hours. We know there were battles on the West Front, on the East Front, where I saw it also entering the Capitol Rotunda and in the Crip, violent battles inside the Capitol.

14:37There could have been very serious danger to the Senate had not Eugene Goodman led away a mob, as Igor bravely filmed. But in the end, they left, and we have video evidence of them deciding to disperse after President Trump told them to leave. Well, earlier this week, we spoke to Kate Woodson. She's a journalist and the founder of Invisible Threads Impact Lab for personal and civic resilience. She explores ties between mental health and democracy. And during her conversation, she said this about the motivation of January 6th rioters. I was at the Capitol on January 6th five years ago. All of the rioters that attacked that Capitol felt that democracy was under threat.

15:16All of them had economic insecurity or ruptures within their lives that they wanted repair for. We need to invest in well-being. Now, Mary Claire, as you said, you spoke to rioters. What did they tell you about their motivations that day? I think one thing that we found is there are a lot of different motivations. Some people came to Washington with the intent of violence. Some people came and were stalking guns in Virginia just in case a battle happened. And there were people who wanted to stop the certification, obviously. There were a lot of other people who, as Lisa said, were sort of wandering around in a daze.

16:00I spoke to one man, Jason Riddle, who spoke of it being like euphoria, like a party. He ended up in the Senate parliamentarian's office, which was being ransacked. And he found some wine and he started drinking. and he stole a book and he went outside and he talked to someone. He actually sold the book to somebody and the person told him they'd seen someone taken out of the Capitol who had been shot. And I assume that's Ashley Babbitt. And he said, no, no, no, no, that's not happening in there. It's a party. And they said, no, I saw it. Someone was shot. And he said in that moment, his whole life changed.

16:38Like he realized that he was doing something wrong. he could be in a lot of trouble and he just ran away. He just left. And so I think that was a really interesting example of someone who sort of later figured out, you know, kind of what he was doing was wrong. But I think there were a lot of different people there with a lot of different motivations. And I think that's why, you know, an oral history is a good way to do it because there were a lot of different types of people there. You can't really put anything into a box here. I mean, a lot of people, you know, had different reasons for wanting to be there.

17:17Well, we got this question from Pat who asks, what happened to the boy who said his father participated in the riot? I believe his father went to prison. I assume he was freed by Trump this past year. And Pat is referring there to Jackson Reffitt. Now, Reffitt reported his father, Guy Reffitt, to the authorities leading to the latter's initial arrest. And Reffitt was the first defendant to be convicted for his participation in the insurrection. He was convicted of civil disorder charges, obstruction of an official proceeding, entering and remaining on restricted grounds with a firearm and obstruction of justice.

17:50Now, we've spoken with Jackson before, but we wanted to check in with him again. Here's what he said. I haven't really processed too much. I've really just let time heal a lot of the things that's gone on between me and my family. We've gotten really far, I think, especially with my mom and my sisters. It's still scary with everything going on nowadays, especially with Trump reelected. There's a lot of validation that kind of comes with everything that leaves everything up to paranoia from now on. I mean, a lot of people acted on Trump's words without even a glimmer of anything returned. And, you know, a lot of these people have gotten it.

18:31So it kind of gives me worry, but at least when it comes to my family, it's been really peaceful. They've given me some space to try to also work out everything through a lot of time to heal a lot of wounds. I've heard healthy things about my father and how he has improved as a person, but it still worries me. Some of the discourse online with my dad, it's scary, but I'm doing okay now. And we should mention that President Trump did pardon Guy Reffitt. Lisa? My understanding is the Reffitts are in town, I think at least his mom, for their planning March not long from now from the ellipse with maybe some Proud Boys as well in a memorial for Ashley Babbitt.

19:17So we're monitoring that today to see how that turns out as well. We got this from Barbara who writes, as I watched what was happening live at the Capitol, I was appalled, sickened, horrified, and certain that those involved would be held accountable that this horrific event in our country's history can be whitewashed and excused is unbelievable, but sadly, it is being deemed acceptable behavior. I fear for the future of our country. Now, as we said, President Trump pardoned over 200 people connected to January 6th during his first term. He went on to pardon or commute the sentences of more than 1 ,500 others in his second term.

19:50And some of those people went on to commit other crimes after those commutations. Lisa, what message do you think these pardons send about how the administration views the crimes committed that day? Well, to those who were pardoned, and most of these were pardoned. There were just 14 that were commutations. But most of them were pardons, including those who harmed police officers. To them, you know, there's a complicated message. And we saw the New York Times, I think, this morning had a story talking about how they think, okay, if we were right, if we were pardoned, if we were patriots, maybe the government should pay us restitution for what's happened to us.

20:26They feel like maybe they were the victims. And that's the message he's sending, is that those who actually caused the harm were the victims here. He's also sending a message that whatever you do in my name is fine. It doesn't matter if you're breaking the laws. As long as you're doing it for me, then the laws don't matter. And I think that But to others, those who oppose Trump, they see this as obviously signs of sort of authoritarianism. Within the Trump, I think within his own mind, it's hard to say what he thinks, but I think he does see these as his supporters. And we know that he's a loyalist who likes loyalty tests.

21:02Igor, what are the broader implications, though, of these pardons and the commutations when it comes to the country's ability to fully reckon with what happened that day? Well, it makes it extremely difficult when you have the president of the United States, somebody with all this tremendous power and a total control over Congress telling you that what you saw was false. What you experienced was not true. I mean, it's complete gaslighting. And it normalizes, to Lisa's point, it normalizes political violence, further undermining the rule of law. It reinforces this idea of selective justice, that the pardons are not about traditional considerations of justice or rehabilitation, but about just personal loyalty to Trump.

21:52It's something you see in authoritarian states. I was born in Bosnia, a second, third world country with a similar corrupt system of justice. And that's the first thing I thought when I, you know, when those rioters first broke into the building, I was like, this can't happen here, right? This is the United States of America. I left a country where this kinds of things happened for somewhere better. And yet, and yet here we are. And, you know, it's hard not to be cynical and worry about where we're going, knowing where I came from. Mark writes, as I watched January 6th unfold, I thought, what if this was a bunch of black folks?

22:31they are protesting and then marching on the Capitol, whether peaceful or not. Just how would that situation have been handled from the security standpoint? How would the military have been activated, not only in D.C., but throughout the country? Then to see all those folks walk away free and clear when I know they would have thrown black folks under the jail quickly. Now, this summer, President Trump deployed thousands of National Guard members to democratically controlled cities, including Washington, D.C., Chicago, and Portland. And he justified this move by citing alleged violence and crime in those cities.

23:00But on January 6th, it took hours for the National Guard to arrive at the Capitol. And we should note that the D.C. mayor does not control the National Guard the way governors and states do. The president does. But, Lisa, what broader questions has this brought up for people around the way the Trump administration chooses to crack down on crime or alleged crime and when it doesn't? Well, I think, yeah, you're asking that exact question. And I think Mark's raising a question, too, about the role of race. But we also now see the president retaliating directly against Democratic cities, but also Democratic states withholding funding now from five different states for some grants.

23:42You know, I think if this were the president of a different country, if we were looking at this from the outside, we would look at it differently. But it is Trump for whom more than half the country voted. And so I think when you, let's say, are loyal to a sports team, you sort of see that team in a good light. You want that team to be good. And I think Trump supporters are already starting with the view that whatever he does is good because he's told them that. But in reality, what he's doing here is supporting his own hold and expansion on power. And that includes January 6th. So a really important question here is the role of Republican leaders at the Capitol, who in that clip you played from Speaker Johnson, they are looking the other way, which is exactly the opposite of what they did in the hours after January 6th.

24:27And one more quick note that's happened at the Capitol. You know, Mary Claire, Igor, and I, we're all still proudly there, but we lost a lot of great journalists after January 6th who really became so disillusioned and felt like the battle for the truth was physically in front of them, and they left to go cover other things. Yeah. Mary Claire, I think it's important to also remember that while the attack was at the Capitol. The Capitol exists in D.C. and people live in D.C. There are neighborhoods around the Capitol. And I'm curious how you're thinking about the impact on the city more broadly, the fact that people were witness to not just what happened on that day, but how the Capitol changed after.

25:17Yeah, I think everyone forgets, probably because, especially because it was COVID, and so people weren't out and about as much. But there was the biggest black fence you've ever seen around, like, several blocks around the Capitol. You know, we all kind of returned. Yeah, for several months. And, you know, we all returned pretty shortly afterward, and you had to, like, drive through checkpoints to get anywhere near the Capitol. And the Capitol is an open area. You know, and that's very important to all of the leaders, I think, in Congress is that people are able to walk around the Capitol and walk on the plaza and watch the sunset and whatever you might want to do.