The Ongoing Fight For Justice Of Jeffrey Epstein Survivors

0:02Hey, it's Todd. Just a heads up before we start the show. This conversation might not be suitable for younger listeners. We'll be talking about Jeffrey Epstein and survivors of sexual assault. If you're a survivor of sexual assault and would like support, you can reach out to RAINN. It's free. It provides confidential services over phone, chat, or text. You can find out more information at RAINN. That's R-A-I-N-N dot org or call 800-656-HOPE. That's 800-656-HOPE. If you want to skip this conversation, you can find a lot of other great ones at the1aid.org. And as always, thanks for listening.

0:50Virginia Jeffrey's memoir, Nobody's Girl, shined a light again on justice for the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. Maxwell is serving a 20-year sentence for sex trafficking while the Justice Department says Epstein died of suicide in his jail cell while awaiting trial on sex trafficking charges. Over the summer, Maxwell was moved to a minimum security prison in Texas after meeting privately with Trump administration officials. In her book, Jaffray recounts how she was lured into Epstein's world after meeting Maxwell at Donald Trump's Mar-a-Lago spa at the age of 16. Jaffray was then subject to years of abuse where she was sex trafficked, including to England's former Prince Andrew, who had his title revoked last week due in part to allegations in the book.

1:39Jaffray took her own life earlier this year, Even before her memoir was released posthumously, she was one of Epstein's most outspoken accusers. Later on, we'll hear from Giffray's brother and sister-in-law about her story and their call for justice. But first, Jen White sat down earlier with Marika Chartouni, another Epstein survivor who was friends with Virginia Giffray. Chartouni says she was recruited in 2000 and was sexually assaulted by Epstein. We bring you that conversation after this break. You're listening to the 1A Podcast. I'm Todd Zwilich, in for Jen White. Stay with us.

2:22Let's start today with the conversation between Chartouni and Jen White. She begins the conversation by telling Jen what people should know about Epstein's world during that time. There were so many moving parts to it, and there were so many people involved to it. It just, it wasn't just him. And I think that's why this call to action and call to releasing these files and asking for the quote unquote list is so important to hold everyone accountable. You were recruited in 2000. Who brought you into this world? It was a friend of mine. And was she, she was also involved? Yeah. I mean, she was, yeah, she, I don't know how to like put it.

3:08because she was also a victim too. And there's some accountability, but there's also a place for them, like where they are victims as well. Yeah, and as you said, she's a survivor. And so it sort of uncovers how complicated that world was. The Department of Justice and the FBI released a memo in July saying they found no evidence that Epstein had a client list or that he blackmailed prominent individuals. In August, the House Oversight Committee subpoenaed the DOJ for files relating to this investigation. And the congressional investigation is on hold because of the government shutdown. How do you feel about the efforts being made at the federal level to investigate Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell's associates further?

4:02You know, for decades, you know, the Epstein survivors, we've all like spoken out the names of the people. who were involved and the people that abused them, and they should face justice. And I think the attempts by some politicians to show, and they have some transparency, is noble, but I also believe that, you know, I think they're also leveraging our trauma for their own ends. Have you been contacted by the DOJ or Congress about these investigations? No. What would it mean to you to have access to the DOJ, to speak to congresspeople about your experience? I think holding the government accountable is first and foremost, you know, what everyone's goal is.

4:53And since this goes back so many years since Maria Farmer reported it, and was it 1996? And she reported it to the FBI. And nothing had been done for so many years. And there's only one person who's been held accountable since. you know, it just leaves us with so many questions. When you first decided to share your story, what did you think or imagine might come from that? Well, when I first decided to share my story, it was to support the other survivors and to heal and to, you know, I just felt like coming forward would give a voice to so many other people that were too scared to come forward or not comfortable coming forward for what other reasons in their life.

5:56But I did not expect this to be still such an ongoing thing in the news. on, yeah, here we are six years later from 2019. You said you wanted to support other survivors, ones who perhaps are afraid to speak out. What kind of support have you found among the survivors who have decided to come out publicly? We have a nice little network of support with each other. We connect with each other. We talk with each other. And we have this unspoken understanding amongst each other that you don't get from anyone else. Even with the political pushback, there is a lot of public pressure to investigate Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell further.

6:54You said, you know, you've been in this now for six years. What has it been like to witness that swell of support? It's kind of surreal like how many people know about this case and how it's taken on such its own identity, if that makes sense. And as for the support and people wanting to release the files and have accountability for it, it's nice to feel like you're heard. Recently, Virginia Giuffre's memoir was published posthumously, and she was a vocal accuser of Epstein. In Nobody's Girl, a memoir of surviving abuse and fighting for justice, she details her experiences with Epstein and Maxwell, along with Prince Andrew and her own father.

7:44And as you know, Giuffre died by suicide in April. You were friends with Virginia. What do you want people to know about her? um well she changed history and i think the sales of her book are testament to everyone believing her and wanting to hear her story and it's too bad that she's not with us to see this what do you wish people perhaps better understood about the toll sexual abuse takes on a person and their mental health? Well, it's with us every day. It doesn't go away. We have to live it and breathe it. And it's also in the news. It's on social media. It's everywhere. And so Virginia's bravery and her ability to speak out the way she did and be attacked by everyone for years.

8:46You know, it's incredible that she was able to do that. As you describe her, she was brave and she took an enormous risk in coming out about her story and sharing her story. What do you want people to know about Virginia that's not related to this part of her life and her story? What kind of person was she? She was very warm and very nurturing. She had a wonderful sense of humor. She was fun. She was just, you know, could be very lighthearted and giggly. And like, we just hang out and just talk and not talk about this case. Just talk about our pets, our kids. Just talk about normal things. And she was so, you know, relatable as well.

9:39She, and approachable.

9:44what's the thing or perhaps there are multiple things that you feel you don't get to talk enough about as people are asking questions about this story something perhaps that you think is overlooked or ignored people are so often focused on making this political and it's not a political issue. I mean, yes, there are people in politics involved, but the people that were harmed by these people still have to live with that wound. And this is their day-to-day reality. So it's not a political story. It's a human one. Yes. Yeah. Marika, the criminal justice system, as we know, it can re-traumatize survivors and most perpetrators of sexual abuse walk free.

10:44According to the Rape Abuse Incest National Network, only one in three survivors report their sexual assault to law enforcement. What changes would you like to see to the criminal justice system so that more survivors feel they can trust that system? um well i'll start by saying that there's a lot of mistrust in the system and that goes back to when maria farmer first reported this in 1996 and her not feeling like she was heard or believed and and i believe that she still feels like she's still waiting for justice and waiting for accountability and you know i believe that comes back to the idea of institutional betrayal and I think what the institution fails to prevent and address wrongdoing, it only re-traumatizes victims and survivors.

11:43And I believe it sends a message when you're not hurt and you're not believed that you don't matter. That was Marika Chartouni. She's an Epstein survivor who spoke earlier with Jen White. Coming up, calls for accountability grow louder after the release of the late Virginia Giuffre's memoir. In Nobody's Girl, Giuffre recounts abuse at the hands of Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. She also writes about the threat she received after speaking out about Epstein. We'll hear from her brother and from her sister-in-law. Stay with us. Back with more in a moment.

12:23Let's get back to the conversation. Do you think that Prince Andrew will ever be held accountable? I'm going to try my damnedest. That was the late Virginia Giffray speaking to 60 Minutes Australia. We're talking about the fallout from Virginia Giffray's new memoir, Nobody's Girl, which reached number one on the New York Times bestseller list this week. It was published after she died by suicide earlier this year. She was 41 years old. The book also comes at a political and a bipartisan moment calls from Republicans and Democrats. especially in the House of Representatives, for the Department of Justice to release files from its years-long investigation into Jeffrey Epstein's sex trafficking operation.

13:08Now let's hear from Virginia Jeffrey's brother and sister-in-law, Sky and Amanda Roberts. Welcome to you both. Thank you. First, I just want to say that I'm so sorry for your loss, Skye and Amanda, and we appreciate you taking the time to join us to talk about Virginia today. So thank you for that. We just heard Mareka talk a little bit about who Virginia was. So putting aside the news and the politics, which we'll get to, what do you want people to know about who Virginia was, Skye?

13:49Oh, well, I think Marika hit it on the head. I mean, she was just this fun, outgoing, goofy person. Sometimes she'd say some things, sometimes inappropriately is the way I put it, where she'd make that inappropriate crack joke that you're like, really? Like, but it's just somebody that was so relatable. And, you know, I think the strength that she had to come forward, not just for, you know, not for any other reason than just such a human level. I mean, when she held her daughter for the first time, she knew this could never happen to not just her, but anybody's daughters or women out there, men out there.

14:28And so she just had this incredible strength to come forward as just a beautiful human being. And so, you know, we're just so proud of her, proud of what she was able to accomplish. Amanda?

14:43Man, I think people, she was a mother, you know, first and foremost. She loved her children. They were the purpose in her life. they are what gave her the strength to to live a life of purpose but she was a sister and she was a mentor and she was funny and she was graceful and I think the thing that always gave me shock about her was her capacity to still see the best in humanity even after she has seen the worst in humanity. And she still had that belief that people still cared and wanted to fight and wanted the best for the world. And that was just amazing to see that from someone who has seen the worst in humanity.

15:37Amanda, would you let us know a little bit what conversations were like with Virginia in the days before she passed?

15:50who um she was really struggling I think we talked about earlier that survivors live with you know the trauma every day of what happened to them but what people don't understand is that there are three levels of trauma that Virginia had dealt with she dealt with child sexual abuse that led her into the arms of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell and then she married which should have been the escape. It should have been the fairytale ending. And in some ways it was. I think two things can be true at the same time. And there was love in that relationship. But towards the end of that marriage, she really started to come forward with the domestic violence that she had been occurring in her home.

16:37And that was the straw. And it was just so difficult. We were on the phone with her, trying to rally her to get her home. She was physically in so much pain. She was mentally struggling because she couldn't speak to her children. And we just kept trying to encourage her, like, we can do this. We can get you home. We can rally. We can fight with you. We can get them back. and um every moment that she had hope and she wanted to come home and she she believed that she could do this and that hope was taken away from her by the Australian system um so you could you you get like these glimmers of her and her personality but you could see behind her eyes that she was losing that hope and it was it was really hard to see I want to say again how much we appreciate you joining us to share your story to bring us inside the loss of your sister and your sister-in-law, Sky and Amanda.

17:47It's very meaningful. So let's talk about accountability now. Now, revelations in Virginia's book led to the former prince of England, Prince Andrew, losing his royal title and his privileges, being evicted from his Windsor mansion. He is now just Andrew Windsor, no longer a prince. Now, he's denied any wrongdoing. Sky, what's your reaction to that fallout and that news of accountability from the UK? Well, I think at first and foremost, we need to give the King some credit for taking some action. It's a stark contrast to what we're doing here in the United States. It's the fact that he is giving some type of account and belief structure to survivors out there.

18:47But I think it would be remiss to say that this is justice, right? This is just accountability. This is holding somebody to account. However, we need to see this action go further. What we would actually like to see is a formal investigation take place, not just there, but here. I mean, there's so many more other than Prince Andrew. But for him directly, this is an acknowledgment. This is an acknowledgement to my sister, to survivors out there. And yes, it does feel like a win in a lot of ways, but there's so much more we have to do and to keep fighting for, to truly bring justice. So yes, he should be stripped of his title.

19:23He's already been stripped of his titles. Like you said, he's just Andrew. And it shows that your voice, if you use the power of your voice, advocation can turn into first thing, which is accountability. Second thing, which is justice. And I would like to see more be done in terms of getting some type of action to take place there. Let's talk more about it. Here's more from Virginia's conversation with 60 Minutes Australia. I hope and I pray that the FBI and the international world as well can start standing behind us victims, us survivors. Give us a hand. Do something about it this time. Don't let them keep getting away.

20:07Now, President Trump comes up a couple of times in Virginia's book. He was not accused of any wrongdoing, but Virginia noted his nomination of Alexander Acosta to be labor secretary. His approval, in fact, in 2017. Now, Alexander Acosta negotiated when he was a prosecutor, negotiated a sweetheart deal for Jeffrey Epstein in 2008 when he was the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of Florida. And that allowed Epstein to avoid a federal trial and serve only 13 months in county lockup on two charges of prostitution. And, of course, Epstein died in jail in 2019, awaiting a new trial. Now, Sky, it's strikingly different than what happened in the U.K., as we just mentioned.

20:52The former Prince Andrew stripped of his title and his privileges. The U.K. ambassador to the United States, Lord Mandelson, was fired a couple of months ago after the release of supportive messages that he sent to Jeffrey Epstein, even after he was charged with sex trafficking. There's a big contrast here in accountability, it strikes me, between how the U.K. is dealing with this for public figures and how the Trump administration in the United States is dealing with it. On the one hand, powerful men stripped or fired. On the other, Alexander Acosta, who had a role in a sweetheart deal for Jeffrey Epstein, was rewarded with a cabinet post.

21:35Go ahead, Sky. Yeah. I mean, I can say I know my sister was very, very hurt by the Acosta deal. That was the sweetheart deal that was struck by Acosta. I mean, it really is disgraceful. It allowed Jeffrey Epstein to continue to abuse young women and children for another nine years, which is just absolutely mind-blowing. And his excuse is that, oh, well, we had to do something, and it proved a point of putting him behind bars. He was on work release. He was able to go to his supposed work and continue to abuse young women and children. He was still doing that, and it's proven to this day. And so I don't know how Acosta sleeps at night, to be honest with you.

22:17He showed no remorse when he spoke in front of the House committee, and it's disgraceful. So I think the UK, on one hand, we need to commend them. We need to say, you guys are setting a roadmap for us to be able to follow for survivors out there. And I would employ the rest of, you know, I would employ our own government to stop safekeeping these documents. They're in this little Pandora's box. And to my sister's point, she gave these documents to the FBI. She gave them to the DOJ. They have them. And now they're saying, oh, wait, don't look over here. There's nothing to see. So, I mean, there's it does.

22:54You said it earlier. It does stink of a cover up. We need to continue to demand the fact that this political environment is changing. Today is a great example of that with the elections that had just transpired. It shows you that people are saying enough is enough. And I think it's putting a lot of people, it doesn't matter, again, left or right, but it's putting Republicans on notice to say, are you really going to stand behind this administration? Are you going to start doing something about it? Because your words mean nothing without action behind them. I just want to note as we round out our conversation here that in 2020, Donald Trump was asked about Ghislaine Maxwell and her charges for sex trafficking.

23:33He said that he wishes her well and that over the summer, the deputy attorney general met privately with Ghislaine Maxwell in prison in Florida. And afterward, she was transferred to a minimum security prison in Texas after that conversation. We're going to take a break in just a minute, but Sky, I want to give you the last word and just let us know what you hope we learn from Virginia's story. Well, I think first and foremost, I think it's, you know, I think we're incredibly proud of her. Her book is now the bestselling book in three different countries. There's absolutely, there's a big reason for that.

24:12I think people are starting to say, we believe you, we hear you, and we see you. And I want to say that to the survivor community, that we are here for you when you're ready. There is a big community of people that are here for you. So we're here for you when you're ready. That's Skye and Amanda Roberts. They are the brother and the sister-in-law of Virginia Giffray, who was an Epstein survivor. Her memoir, Nobody's Girl, was recently published posthumously. Thank you both so much for speaking with us today. We'll be right back.

24:45Let's get back to our conversation on the continued fight for justice for the victims of Jeffrey Epstein and the ongoing push to release documents from the Department of Justice's investigation into Jeffrey Epstein's sex trafficking operation. The call has been reignited after the publishing of Nobody's Girl from the late Virginia Jaffray. Of course, we just heard from Virginia Jaffray's brother and sister-in-law. So let's talk about the law. Let's turn to her attorney, Sigrid McCauley. She's the managing partner of Boy Schiller Flexner and has represented multiple Epstein victims and survivors.

25:25Sigrid, welcome to 1A. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Well, let's talk about the law. Great to have you on the show. You brought the lawsuits against the former Prince Andrew, who we talked about, which alleged that he sexually assaulted Virginia multiple times when she was under the age of 18. This isn't just a powerful family. This is the British royal family. I mean, in many ways, it doesn't get more powerful and more establishment than that. That case was settled out of court in 2022. What kind of challenges did you face in bringing on this case against somebody so very powerful, so very famous?

26:03It's really interesting because I think it sort of makes a profound statement about the difference between our justice system and what we may see over in Europe and in the United Kingdom. When I brought that case and our firm brought that case, there was a very strong reaction that it was something that was impossible or couldn't be able to be done. And that mostly came from comments out of the UK. But I, having grown up as a young lawyer in the litigation system in the United States, I mean, one of the things that I felt most empowering while I was in law school to learn about was how we can use our law to help others here in the United States and that there is justice.

26:47And so I was fairly bullish about the fact that we could sue him and hold him to account here in the United States. It was not a small task, to say the least, but I felt very comfortable that we had, we certainly had the evidence, we had a significant amount of information about his culpability and his conduct. And I wasn't going to be, and we weren't going to be deterred, and Virginia was not going to be deterred simply because he was, at the time, a prince. Well, Virginia called you at one point a superwoman. she was a vocal accuser of Jeffrey Epstein, probably the most well-known at this point.

27:29What can you tell us about her motivation to join you and fight on this stage against somebody who in some ways couldn't be more entrenched and more powerful? Virginia was so remarkable in many ways, but I think what's most interesting about the allegations relating to Andrew is that Virginia's whole focus when she started the relationship with me was really about stopping the sex trafficking operation. It was really about stopping Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. She was certain that they had continued to commit crimes and that the people surrounding them had continued to commit these crimes.

28:08And so that was really her focus. She was much less interested in the bad actors who had assaulted her in the process. They were certainly important. They were part of the story. But from her perspective, she was much more forward thinking about worrying about the other survivors that were out there and making sure that she put a stop to that. And, you know, you heard her brother and her wonderful sister-in-law talking about the fact that, you know, at this moment in time when she first had her daughter, you know, reflecting on that and really becoming motivated in a way to stop the trafficking.

28:47And that's not easy for any survivor, as you can imagine, to take a moment in time to say, I'm going to put aside the personal anguish that this would cause me, and I'm going to focus on going after these individuals who I know are continuing to commit these crimes. So it really shows you just what a remarkable nature she had, what an incredible human being she was, she had that fight. And it was a very, her thought process was very logical. It was very driven. And it really wasn't until that moment when Andrew came out in the news and called her a liar to the public that Virginia then, you know, she and I had that conversation and she said, I'm ready to go after him.