Hurt People | Fifteen

0:00Starting something new isn't just hard, it can be terrifying. In fact, I have friends that have started small businesses who were constantly second-guessing themselves early on, asking questions like, what if no one buys my products? Or what if I make a fool of myself? Get rid of those what-ifs with Shopify. The e-commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10 % of all e-commerce in the U.S. Get started with your own design studio with hundreds of ready-to-use templates. Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store that matches your brand's style. Accelerate your efficiency, whether you're uploading new products or trying to improve existing ones.

0:42Shopify is packed with helpful AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines, and even enhance your product photography. Get the word out like you have a marketing team behind you. Easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling. It's time to turn those what-ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your$1 per month trial today at shopify.com slash 48 hours. Go to shopify.com slash 48 hours. That's shopify.com slash 48 hours. Reaching your weight loss goals doesn't have to mean completely changing the way you live your life. What if you could make healthy progress with a treatment plan that included medication, access to 24-7 support, nutrition tips, and more.

1:34That's possible with Weight Loss by HERS. Through HERS, you're connected with a medical provider who determines if treatment is right for you. These licensed providers learn your story and create a personalized plan to deliver healthy progress you can maintain. HERS offers access to ongoing care, dosage, and medication adjustments, plus lifestyle and nutrition tips. Feel your best self again. Visit ForHers.com slash 48 hours to get a personalized, affordable plan that gets you. That's F-O-R-H-E-R-S dot com slash 48 hours. ForHers.com slash 48 hours. Weight loss by HERS is not available everywhere.

2:16Prescription required. See website for full details, important safety information, and restrictions. Before we begin, just a trigger warning. The following episode contains references to graphic physical violence and suicide. Please listen with care. Well, it was late at night and I was finishing up some work at my computer and I said, well, how bad could this be? You know, never a good thing to say to yourself. Four years after Daniel Marsh had been sent to prison for murdering her mother, Claudia Moppen, Victoria Hurd was sitting in her office, preparing to watch a YouTube video. I came to realize that there are no such things as evil people in this world.

3:05Only damaged people. There on the screen, suddenly, was Daniel Marsh. It was 2018, and Daniel was now 20 years old. I did horrible things to people who never deserved to be hurt. In the video, Daniel was standing on a stage, delivering a TEDx talk organized by his correctional facility. His short hair was slicked back, and he wore a blue prison shirt and sweatpants. And I'm watching it like a deer in the headlights, you know. I can't pull my eyes away. It's a mature, self-assured Daniel Marsh telling his story. In all his previous interviews with law enforcement and psychiatrists, Daniel had denied being sexually abused.

3:58But that story had now changed. In his TEDx talk, he claimed he had been sexually abused as a child, although he never named the culprit or provided any details about the alleged abuse. Growing up, I felt like there wasn't a soul in the world that I could tell. He also admitted that he hurt people, but he never apologized for murdering Chip and Claudia. I just went into a rage immediately. I went into a crying rage. What bothered you? Tell me. It was his arrogance. It was his minimizing, not talking about what he did, you know, and not showing any kind of remorse. No remorse. But Daniel said he was changing, finally learning how to connect with others and let go of hate.

4:59We must always, always embrace our humanity.

5:14The audience was celebrating him as he spoke. Good job on your recovery. And you could feel that coming from his audience. Victoria says she couldn't quite believe her eyes. the audience rose to its feet and applauded. This was not a man she believed who had changed. I felt like, no more, no more from you. We did a loving thing by putting you behind bars. This is a loving thing to our family and our community that's suffering. And then you're going to keep coming? No.

5:54Chip and Claudia's family wanted to move forward and heal, so they pushed to get the video removed from the internet. And it was. But that video wasn't the last they'd see of Daniel Marsh. New laws in California intended to rehabilitate young offenders were about to put Daniel's case in the spotlight again. This was a massive undertaking to essentially reopen the case. It had been five years since Daniel Marsh had killed two people. Was it possible that in that time he had changed? That certainly was his contention. I'm not who I used to be. And if so, could he walk free? The fear was overwhelming.

6:54I'm 48 Hours correspondent Erin Moriarty, and this is 15, Inside the Daniel Marsh Murders. Episode 6, Hurt People.

7:15In his TEDx talk in March 2018, Daniel Marsh talked about why he believed he had changed for the better. And there was a reason for that public appeal. It was because of a new state law that might give Daniel a chance of freedom. One of the most controversial propositions on California's ballot would impact the state prison system and some say public safety. A ballot proposal called Prop 57 reformed the state juvenile criminal justice system. It would allow only judges, not prosecutors, to decide whether certain juveniles would be tried as adults in court. And among those who had voted for the new law were Chip and Claudia's children.

8:06Victoria explained why. Of course I want our children to be rehabilitated. I think that there's a lot of young criminals in the adult system that shouldn't be there. So, yes, I want to support any kind of rehabilitation for young people. But did you think that might include any more? I did not think that would include Daniel Marsh.

8:33But Daniel's attorneys argued, despite the violence of his crimes, he should benefit from Prop 57. And an appeals court agreed and granted Daniel a new hearing at the Superior Court of Yolo County. Now, a juvenile court judge would go back, listen to the evidence, and decide if Daniel Marsh should have been tried as a juvenile instead of an adult. And this is what was at stake. If the judge ruled in Daniel's favor, he would then be tried as a juvenile. And even if he was again convicted, the state could be forced to set him free on his 25th birthday. Okay, Madam Clerk, let's go on the record in case JD18-332 in the matter of Daniel William Marsh.

9:35The judge had to weigh several factors, including the sophistication and gravity of the crime. prior juvenile delinquent behavior, and the probability of rehabilitation. You know, of course, my memory of Daniel is him telling me he wants to put a pen in my neck and crush my head with a laptop. So, right, I was skeptical.

10:06That's Dr. Matthew Soulier, who took the witness stand for the defense. He's the psychiatrist I spoke to in the last episode, who was first asked to evaluate Daniel Marsh in 2013. Five years after the trial, he had received a call from Daniel's defense team asking if he would meet with their client again. We were being asked for the first time as child forensic psychiatrists, is Daniel amenable to rehabilitation? And this was new. quite frankly. And why start with this guy? I mean, this guy is extremely challenging. And I said, I'll, you know, I'll give it a shot. I'd like to see what he looks like five years later.

10:51And I went and met with him. And was the same Daniel Marsh sitting in front of you when you walked in? No, he was different. Well, he wasn't a boy anymore, obviously. So he was, you know, more grown up. He had more of the appearance of an adult. He was much warmer. immediately he remembered that he had threatened to harm me he without me prompting expressed remorse for it said he was sorry and then proceeded to tell me how he had grown how he had changed how he had so-called done the work and that he had gained a lot by being around people who had been compassionate towards him

11:37In his testimony, Dr. Soulier said Daniel had begun his rehabilitation early on in juvenile hall. He's still not out of the woods. He's still got some definite growth and maturation to do, but he's grown a lot emotionally. As for Daniel's past fixation on killing others? The homicidal ideation, those thoughts, imagery, intentions to kill other people have completely ceased. per his report. Daniel told Soulier that he had never felt better. It was his opinion that he could live violent-free, that he could be set free at 25 and that he could live without violence. I first spoke with Dr. Soulier a few months after his 2018 testimony at the hearing.

12:31But you did testify that you thought he could be rehabilitated. I did and I didn't. I was struggling because, of course, I was struggling with just the nature of what he did. It was horrific. It's hard to contemplate that the mind behind that crime is changeable. He did a horrible crime. He's a psychopath. Let's throw him away. Why are we even having this silly hearing? And I, too. I grappled with it, too. He is an extreme. You wrote in your report, Mr. Marsh is manipulative, intelligent, and capable of deceiving this evaluator and others. I did. And if he is in fact lying to you, wouldn't that make you more concerned about his ability to be rehabilitated?

13:18It would be. If he was lying and being disingenuous about everything, then right, that would be a pause for concern. But there are some things that he can't lie about. There are other factors to consider as it relates to transfer. There is the absence of his delinquency history. There is the absence of a court reaching out to him and trying to help him before he did this. There are things that he can't lie about that help his cause and gave me reason to go in and try to opine that he should go back to a juvenile jurisdiction. Chime is changing the way people bank. They offer fee-free, smarter banking built for you.

14:03Unlike other banks that may saddle you with overdraft fees and monthly charges, Chime makes everyday spending work harder by delivering real rewards and real financial progress. You get fee-free banking with overdraft coverage you can count on, tools that help build credit history and savings that earn up to 3 % APY. That's seven times higher than a traditional bank. And because you're a 48 Hours listener, you can earn up to$350 by joining and making qualifying direct deposits. Chime also just launched the Chime card, the cashback card that helps you build credit with your own money. No annual fees, no interest.

14:43And with qualifying direct deposits, earn one and a half percent cash back on eligible purchases every single day. I think I know a few friends who could have benefited from using the Chime card when they were just starting out. Chime is not just smarter banking. It is a rewarding way to bank. Join the millions who are already banking fee-free today. Head to chime.com slash 48 hours. That's chime.com slash 48 hours. It only takes a few minutes to sign up and 48 hours listeners can earn up to an extra$350.

15:30Chime card on-time payment history may have a positive impact on your credit score. Results may vary. See Chime.com for details on applicable terms. A thoughtfully built wardrobe comes down to pieces that mix well and last. Quince offers premium essentials designed to do just that. Their collection includes lightweight cashmere sweaters, short-sleeved Mongolian cashmere polos, linen bottoms and shorts, and tees in 100 % Pima cotton and European jersey linen. Versatile pieces that work season to season. Quinn says they're able to provide high-quality clothing without the traditional markup by partnering directly with trusted factories that uphold strong standards for craftsmanship and ethical production.

16:10The cashmere is 100 % Mongolian. The cotton is long staple and resistant to pilling. And the European jersey linen is breathable, lightweight, and durable. Every piece is built to hold up to regular wear and maintain its appearance over time. Stop over-complicating your wardrobe. You don't need a closet full of options, just pieces that actually work. Right now, go to quince.com slash 48hours for free shipping and 365-day returns. That's a full year to build your wardrobe and love it. And you will. Now available in Canada too. Don't keep settling for clothes that don't last. Go to quince.com slash 48 hours for free shipping and 365-day returns.

17:00quince.com slash 48 hours. Dr. Matthew Soulier was hired by Daniel's defense team, so when his testimony wrapped, the prosecution called its own expert on psychopathy, forensic psychologist Matthew Logan. While Logan had never met Daniel Marsh, he did examine his records and saw that when he had turned 18, Daniel had scored a 35.8 out of 40 on a widely used psychopathy checklist. It was one of the highest scores Dr. Logan had ever seen. In other words, according to this assessment, Daniel Marsh had nearly all the traits of a psychopath. Some of the traits are glib superficial charm, grandiose sense of self-worth, pathological lying, criminal versatility, lack of responsibility, inability to feel remorse.

18:08Dr. Logan also highlighted a psychopath's ability to con and manipulate. Well, they have an uncanny ability to use their charm and use a lot of real savvy, as opposed to just straight intelligence, but street smarts in order to con and manipulate police, psychologists, National Parole Board, the courts. Logan told me at the time that releasing a psychopath like Daniel Marsh was dangerous. It definitely means that this person is not going to be easily rehabilitated or not rehabilitated at all by any means that is being used within the correctional system. I think this is going to be something that he's going to be dealing with the rest of his life.

19:01Do you believe that Daniel March could kill again and will kill again? I believe that he could kill again. And if I was being asked to make a decision on the likelihood, I would say it's more likely than not that he would kill again. This was the chief concern for Claudia and Chip's family members when they were allowed to give impact statements at the hearing. Here's Chip's daughter, Mary Northup. I was raised to believe that people deserve a second chance. But a second chance is really only worthwhile if one acknowledges and understands the issues that caused the failure in the first place and has the desire and ability not to do the same thing again.

19:50Mary acknowledged that no punishment would ever bring back her father. But the one thing this court could do is protect all the other families from suffering as ours has suffered at the hands of this defendant. As she spoke, Mary alternated her gaze between the judge and Daniel. He didn't look at anyone that gave a personal statement. I was surprised because if he's a really good manipulator, He at least looks and tries to be empathic, but I think he didn't look because he realized he couldn't feign empathy. After the victim's statements, the judge requested a brief recess, and Daniel's defense team returned with a surprising announcement.

20:48Daniel himself was going to testify.

20:57Daniel described his time first in Juvenile Hall and then an adult correctional facility. He admitted to taking drugs inside prison and that he had been hospitalized after cutting his wrist. You know, again, when I first came in, I made a lot of mistakes. and one of those mistakes was experimenting a little bit with meth and then a lot with heroin. And I ended up using heroin pretty consistently for a little over a year. That ended up injecting it? It did. Yeah, eventually it got to the point where I had my own rig, as they call it, syringe. But Daniel said he stopped using drugs when he became involved with groups like TEDx inside the prison.

21:53Have you learned anything in any of these groups about responsibility for your own behavior? I have, yeah. That was mainly through errors in criminal thinking. Can you tell the court a little bit about what you learned? Sure. I guess what it comes down to is like the main errors in criminal thinking is like the selfishness behind it and the self-centeredness behind it, not taking into account how your actions affect those around you and affect other people in negative ways. You know, again, like feeling entitled, you know, feeling like it's all about you or feeling like you can like the rules don't apply, I guess.

22:35and part of breaking that way of thinking is accepting responsibility for your mistakes and for your actions, you know, and acknowledging and beginning to, you know, like work through what the things that you've done have done to other people, I guess. Daniel Marsh insisted that he was a changed man, no longer the troubled child who had viciously murdered two people. I mean, it's night and day, man. It's completely different. You know, I no longer struggle with mental illness. I've worked through the vast majority of my anger and hate. And for the first time, he addressed his victims' families.

23:28Nothing I ever say or do will ever be enough. But I'm sorry.

23:41I'm sorry. I'm sorry I took them away from you. I'm sorry for all the pain that I've caused you. I'm sorry for the pain that I'm sure I'm still causing you. I'm sorry for every horrible thing that you've gone through because of me. I'm sorry for everything, and if I could undo it, I would. And I know that until I truly process what I did, then I can't really give you the apology that you deserve. I can't even bring myself to look at you. And I know you don't think I'm being genuine, but I just really hope that at least to some extent you're able to receive this because I'm truly sorry. But for Chip's daughter, Mary, that apology didn't sound sincere.

24:40For me to be convinced that he's sorry for what he did would be for him to talk about it and to say, I did that, and that was awful. And he really, even in his apology, All he said was, that was another me. That was a dark me. You know, that's, he wasn't willing to embrace it. That really was him.

25:14Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile, with a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop. With Mint, you can get premium wireless for just$15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments, but that's weird. Okay, one judgment. Anyway, give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of$45 for a three-month plan, equivalent to$15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only. Then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See full terms at mintmobile.com. It is not hard to destroy a college.

25:48Last season, the podcast Campus Files brought you stories of fraternity drug rings, stolen body parts, campus cults, and more. And now Campus Files is back for another season. There's a guy screaming into his phone. He's like, I just saw Charlie Kirk get assassinated right in front of me. Every week is a new episode and a new story. It was so chaotic. It's almost like a university on a siege. Listen to and follow Campus Files. Available now wherever you get your podcasts.

26:18At the opening of the last day of the hearing, Daniel Marsh smiled and exchanged pleasantries with his lawyers as they waited for the judge to enter the chamber. Okay, Madam Clerk, let's go on the record in the matter of Daniel William Marsh, case JD 18-332. And what I have before me is a written court order. Daniel looked down as the judge read from his order. The legal basis of the remand was the November 9, 2016 passage of Proposition 57. After going over the details of the crime in the case against Daniel, the judge announced his decision. In conclusion, the seriousness of the offense, both in terms of its sophistication and the gravity, along with the finding that Marsh has made little progress in rehabilitation in the past five years, support the ultimate ruling in this court to transfer the case to a dull criminal court.

27:26Daniel's original sentence, a minimum of 52 years in prison, would stand. As the judge announced his verdict, the courtroom remained silent. Daniel kept his eyes locked on the floor and didn't visibly react. But Claudia and Chip's family members did. They gathered to hug each other and cry.

27:56We did it. We did it. You did it. You did it. And yet, it was still not over. Daniel's legal team continued to pursue appeals in the wake of yet another new California state bill that went into effect in January 2019. This one would prohibit 14 - and 15-year-olds from ever being tried as adults, even killers. To me, this is terrorizing. Although Victoria had voted for Prop 57, she actively protested against this newest state law, known as Senate Bill 1391, with Daniel Marsh on her mind. I realize that this man is not the typical juvenile offender. However, the passage of this bill will make all juvenile offenders one and the same.

29:00There will be no discernment and no responsibility. If 1391 is passed, the man who murdered my parents and many others like him will be released into society at age 25. In response to Senate Bill 1391, Daniel's defense team appealed his 52-year prison sentence, arguing that this latest new law should be retroactively applied to his case. It raised the possibility that once again, Daniel could be eligible for an early release. He was not giving up on getting out. The overwhelming amount of fear that I had of him knowing, first of all, knowing us. That's Sarah Rice, Claudia Moppin's granddaughter.