Beautiful Conflict with the poet Yung Pueblo

0:05How are you feeling? It's such a common question that we ask others that we really don't even care if we get an honest answer anymore. I'm fine, is usually how a lot of people answer. But here's another question. How am I feeling? And that's a question we rarely, if ever, ask ourselves. But that's exactly what Diego Perez did. He asked himself, how am I feeling? And he was so honest with the answer, it transformed his life. You may know him as Young Pueblo. the poet and author whose books and poetry enlighten us and challenge us to answer that question, how am I feeling honestly? We sat down and had what can only be described as an enlightened conversation.

0:51We talked about beautiful conflict in our relationships and cosmetic spirituality, all of it grounded in being able to answer that question, how am I honestly? Lastly, this is a bit of optimism.

1:10Were you a poet before Young Pueblo? No, absolutely not. Did you know you could write? No, certainly not. No, it was, I think, accidental. You know, it's a long story, but when I was so heavy into just constantly intoxicating myself as a means to get away from my emotions, it reached a breaking point where, like, my body was like, we cannot, we cannot do this anymore. It's either stop or die. Those are your options. Literally stop or die. Like there was one particular night in the summer of 2011 where I hit that rock bottom point. My heart felt like it was going to explode. I felt totally, it was literally just on the floor, like on the floor for like two and a half, three hours, feeling like I'm at the edge of life.

1:54In that moment, I was like, if I keep going, I'm just, I'm going to die. Like my heart can't take it anymore. So from that moment, I started, you know, reshaping my life, changing my pattern, started telling myself the truth, which was like the crux of all of the personal transformation that started happening because what got me there was lying. I didn't want to admit to myself that - Like I can stop at any time. Yeah, I can stop at any time, but also that the reason that I'm doing this is because I don't feel good. You know, that there's all this sadness and anxiety that I'm not acknowledging.

2:24And once I started accepting like, oh, there's something here that I need to look at. That's when my life started turning around. But through that process, and then when I started meditating, my mind slowly became lighter, and then creativity started bubbling up. That wasn't there before. The drugs were simply to help alleviate or numb just personal pain. Yeah, personal pain. I think it was a long journey to being okay and actually settling in the United States. You know, we, so I was born in Ecuador and my family, we moved here when I was about four years old and we just experienced the worst poverty.

3:05Like it was like, it was so rough for such a long time. And my mom, she worked cleaning houses. My dad worked in a supermarket. So we were really stuck in the like classic American poverty trap. So what I saw was like a lot of, I saw them fighting, trying to figure out like, how are they going to pay the rent? And they had no one else to share their stress with. And my brother and I, we would watch my parents arguing, being so loud with each other. And I think it created this sense of scarcity. I knew things were scarce, and it caused so much anxiety in me, so much sadness. And I never had a way to process that.

3:45And when I got to college, there were just so many drugs available, introduced to them. And then I was like, oh, actually, this can help me just totally run away from whatever's happening inside of me. This works. Immediately. It's a strategy. Yeah. Running for the sensation of pleasure until the loudness of everything that was happening could no longer be ignored. But your path, I mean, was there an intervention? Did somebody, I mean, I know people who've overcome drug addictions. I don't know anybody who overcomes it by saying, you know what? Meditation. You know? They may get to that eventually.

4:22But it's not like my heart's going to explode. Like I'm so curious. Yeah, yeah, that's funny. How you go from lying on the floor, my heart's going to explode to I think meditation's the thing. Yeah. How did that like close that gap for me? So there's literally a year between these two moments. Okay. I think there was the summer of 2011 where my heart was going to explode. And the summer of 2012 where I did my first silent 10-day meditation course. In that time, I was fortunate. I felt like I don't know where the strength came from, but I just knew that I had no other alternative. It was like either change or die.

5:00So I was like, I don't wanna go out like this. I remember laying on the floor and thinking about my parents and how much they rolled the dice for an opportunity, not even for certainty, for an opportunity at a better, greater life for some like economic mobility. And I was just throwing all that hard work away that they put into us. So part of it was not wanting to let your parents down. Yeah, I thought about them a lot. And it was surprising because like, when I was using all the drugs, I was definitely not thinking about them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So - Interesting little insight, right? Which is the desire to numb pain is selfish.

5:38And the root, which is easy, I mean, taking the drugs is relatively easy. You know, you get an instant relief, is ironically selfish. whereas to do hard work of recovery is actually selfless. Yeah, yeah. It's funny. And that the hard work was an act of service. The easy solution was a selfish act. Oh, totally. And it was funny because in that moment too, I mean, you're highlighting it so well. Like I was thinking about my parents and I started thinking about more so who I was in high school and how I was part of this incredible organization called Boston Youth Organizing Project. And we were just, you know, young people who were teaching other young people how to organize and like the way that you can change your public transportation system or your high school or your city, literally like changing laws, like making material change in the environment that you lived in.

6:35And I was like, why am I not like helping people? Like, what am I doing? And that selflessness, you know, it started slowly waking up. And then I just put, you know, I like put my foot down. I was like, I can't, I can't do any more hard drugs. I put them away. You know, I was still drinking and smoking, but not to the same like intense way that I was before. But what I noticed was like, okay, I need some pillars. Like I need something to lean on. And I basically started examining what was I doing? What was I doing wrong that got me to that point? And I was like, okay, whatever it was, let me do the opposite of it now.

7:08So I noticed I was lying to myself and I was like, well, I need to admit that I don't feel good, that I have anxiety and all the sadness bubbling up. So let me tell myself the truth. And instead of running away from it by rolling up another joint, let me feel it. Let me just sit with it. And this is before I even learned any meditation technique or anything like that. I would, you know, when I feel the tension coming up, I was like, okay, let me challenge myself. Let me just sit on my bed for five minutes and just feel it, not doing anything else. Just accept, like allow yourself to be sad. Just accept it.

7:39Just feel whatever was there. Cause I couldn't even, you know, I would run so fast from it. There was no even time to even begin to process. And in starting to do the opposite of that, I was like, this is not so bad. This is not as scary as I thought it was. You know, to me, they seemed like demons before. And then I was like, yeah, this sucks, but it's not that bad. I think there are other modern numbing techniques besides drugs. Oh, for sure. There are other common ones that have already been talked about, plenty social media addiction, cell phone addiction, and all the dopamine. I mean, it's all dopamine.

8:14But there was one I came across recently which really shocked me, which is spirituality. And let me... Yeah, tell me more. Right. So I think spirituality is healthy. I think there's a lot of spirituality that's happening now that isn't real spirituality. It sounds like spirituality, but it's not. And I'll give you the example. Somebody I know who speaks in all of the spiritual jargon, sounds like they just got back from Burning Man. you know oh yeah you know that sort of over the top yeah you know the universe is providing that i can find my my mantra so that i can i mean who the hell knows i mean yeah yeah you know and i don't diminish spirituality but this brand of it is alienating to me anyway i called her up and said how are you i haven't talked to you in a while and she says i'm going through a really hard time but i think this is the universe trying to teach me a lesson and i went say more like what's going on?

9:09And she sort of went through her social life and her career and just things are kind of not going well, you know, and when it rains, it pours. And I kept saying, boy, that sounds hard. And she goes, yes, but you know, I think that there's a lesson here. I'm supposed to be learning toughness. And I was thinking to myself, my God, this poor girl is lying to herself. I said, are you sad? Oh, this is a lesson for me. I'm like, no, no, just are you sad? And she said, yes. I said, okay, so be sad. I said, it sounds like really stressful what you're going through. So just, there's no, it's okay to be sad.

9:43There's no lesson. And literally the floodgates opened. This person had never allowed themselves in this recent time to be sad and allow the feelings to just flow through without trying to assign some sort of lesson or meaning as opposed to just allow the feelings to happen. I'm so glad that you're bringing this up because it's something that I sort of quietly wonder inside of myself. I've never ascribed to like, how can I call it? The only term I can think of is like cosmetic spirituality. Well put. You know, you look spiritual. You got a feather in your hat. You know, I'm not trying to, I want to respect people's cultures and everything out there.

10:26But it's just, it's not for me. You know, like I just keep it. This is how I look. And I realized that I don't need crystals in my pocket. I actually, what I need is like in my heart. Like it's in my awareness. It's in my perception. It's in the way I try to move through life with understanding the law. And like the only law I believe in is the law of cause and effect. That's it. Like I'm never like, I've never used that lingo for myself. Like, oh, like, you know, the universe is trying to teach me this or something like that. I believe that what you put in is what you get out. and then it's essentially the law of karma.

11:04Like, you know, if you do this particular thing, you'll get that result. And oftentimes I think a lot of people, you know, the law of karma just seems really opaque because you try to treat one person really well and then they end up treating you like crap. But then you don't realize that some random person comes in the future and they do something that's so good for you, but it's not the person that you want it from, right? So I think obviously the universe versus something that's so vast and so mysterious, but I really try to keep my spirituality in line with, let me be kind, let me be gentle, let me put forward good actions, let me be selfless, while also making sure that I'm taking care of myself, taking care of my family, and making sure that I'm fulfilling my responsibilities.

11:51But the sort of external things that I see in a lot of different Western spirituality, I've never felt comfortable, I've never been to Burning Man and all that. I'm sure there's so many people probably listening who love Burning Man. I've been, it's fun. I'm so happy you love it. It's colorful and bright and fun. Yeah, yeah. But to me, it's like, you know, my time is very full. So if I'm going to take time off, I'm going to go to a silent meditation retreat and just be by myself and do my best. And this is interesting what you're saying, right? So I love this particular technique because it's all about observing reality as it is.

12:24Not how you want it to be, not manipulating it, but how is it arising in this moment? So let me be with it. And all of it is whatever sensation is arising in that moment, you're with it, whether it's an ugly one or a nice one. And you're just observing it objectively. I love your term of cosmetic spirituality because what it does is unfortunately dilutes or diminishes the real stuff. Right. It's like diagnoses of ADHD or being on the spectrum or any of these things, which is there are very real cases. Yeah. But when they're so over-diagnosed, it diminishes the real cases because now we roll our eyes at everything that's real.

12:58Totally, totally. and ultimately I think what do you what's the point the point is a change in behavior yeah right like how are you changing your actions yeah and over time your actions will you know help your perception not be so dense and then there definitely is the aspect of letting go because that's something that I felt so clearly and why I kept going back to this particular vipassana tradition that I'm a part of it's the same tradition that you all know Harari meditates and the Goenka tradition. And it's so like, I've never seen anything like it in the world. Like you don't have to pay anything to go there.

13:32You don't even, there's not even a suggested donation, right? So when you go there and you don't get what you want, your ego's not, oh, I paid for this. So I, you know, my bed needs to be super comfortable. It needs to be, you know, the highest quality possible. It's not like that at all. It's like, you're basically living like a monk for 10 days and you just, you get what you get and you're practicing renunciation. And on top of that, you're learning a meditation technique that will help you learn how to react less. Because that's where a lot of our trouble comes from. It's just that we're constantly just reacting, reacting, reacting.

14:05And it'll happen so quickly that it feels like we don't even have a choice. It's just like, oh, I'm just, you know, this person said that and I'm angry. But it's like, no, there's actually, when you cultivate the mind, there's space there. And you can take advantage of that space and see choices. Should I do what I did before? Or should I act in a new way that is actually much more skillful? We know these lessons because we teach these lessons to our children. When a kid gets angry, we say, take a breath. And it's that beat and the clarity in that space and that beat and that breath that allows for alternative points of view of perspective, right?

14:43And I mean, admittedly, it's taken me a long time. I'm a reactor where somebody will show me something and be like, I hate it. And then I'd be like, I don't actually hate it. you know? Or somebody will show me something that's gone wrong at work. I'm like, why can't anybody just get something right? I always tell people, just ignore me for the first sentence or two because then the rational sort of, you know, I'll settle and be like, actually, it's fine. Don't worry about it. It's not a big deal. But I've had to learn to bring that breath up to before the initial reaction. It always gets there.

15:15And I guess this is a whole idea of being triggered, We're all triggered by all kinds of things. And sometimes it's just fatigue. Something can set us off hunger. But to be aware of it, like I'll actually say to somebody, just so you know, I'm a little hangry, probably not going to be a little bit nice. Don't take it personally, please. I'm fully aware of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And in that space, I can manage it. And I think it goes right back to your point. You don't have to be addicted to drugs to have an honest conversation with yourself and just feel feelings. Exactly. It can be something like, I'm hangry and I'm a bit of an asshole.

15:45and amazingly just simply acknowledging that truth makes me less of an asshole. I'm so glad you're mentioning this because this is something that it took so long for my wife and I to learn, but we practice on a daily basis literally what you're saying. We will check in a few times a day and just tell each other, this is how I feel. This is what's currently happening inside of me. And sometimes it's when we wake up and if one of us just wakes up feeling angry or tough or like dense or exhausted, you know, for whatever reason, we let each other know. So that way the person who's feeling it knows and the other person who's around them is aware of it.

16:26So both people get more information that wasn't there before. And if ever I'm feeling like that and I let her know, it helps me frame myself in my mind. And I'm like, okay, so if you know this, then be very aware of how you string your sentences and be very aware of like, as the mind is so tricky and moves so fast, it really doesn't like responsibility. It's like, okay, how is this your fault, right? Like this feeling that happened is happening inside of me. You did this to me, yeah. How did you do this? And we learned this in particular from one moment where I was working in the kitchen and my wife was in the living room and we were apart from each other for like two, three hours, just like smashing away on our laptops.

17:11And she comes in laughing And she's like, I just spent the last few hours trying to figure out how this feeling that has nothing to do with you, how it's your fault. And I kept going further and further and further back in time trying to just like scrounge out a reason. And she was like, and I realized it's actually, it's just me. It has nothing to do with you. And I was like, that's wild. I was like, I do that all the time too. And it's been really helpful. If you think about the way feelings come out, right? Usually feelings come out when other people want to know how we are. I mean, literally, how are you is a polite gesture.

17:50Good to see you. How are you? I mean, most people don't answer that honestly, but that's what it is. It's me finding out how you feel. We don't wake up in the morning and go, how am I? How are my feelings today? We say, how are you feeling today? But I never say, how am I feeling today? And that practice of waking up in the morning and be like, how am I feeling today? and having an honest conversation with myself because we're not honest with other people. And when we are, it's weird, you know? Yeah, but when you do that - I'm feeling a little tough, a little rough on the edges, kind of angry and a little bit punchy.

18:24How are you? And it's beautiful because, you know, I think it's probably helped decrease our arguments. Probably, I mean, it's unquantifiable, but it feels like it's like 30, 40%, like just this simple little thing that we're putting into practice on a daily basis. And when there are shifts, like we let each other know and it's like, whoa, like, you know, I'm feeling a lot better or wow, I'm feeling heavier. And then it just sets us up to have a clear sense of like what we can do to support each other, how we should step up or step back or give each other, you know, whatever it is that's needed.

18:58But it's a wonder in terms of stopping unnecessary arguments. Because I really feel like a lot of the arguments that we have in relationships, they're just like, you're literally the closest person that I can get to join me in my anger. And how can the mind sort of flip backwards to just get you to join? Because humans, like, we love to have other people share in our emotions, whether they're heavy ones or really light and joyful ones. I had an experience not too long ago with my girlfriend. It was astonishing because it was an argument that went horribly wrong. One of us got it wrong. The other one got it wrong and poured gas on the fire.

19:38Yeah. And the other one reacted to getting it wrong. And before we knew it, I mean, I can't remember the last time we had a fight like that, where nobody could listen. Yeah. Nobody felt heard. The thing got out of control. The one thing that happened that was remarkable, and we actually just talked about it recently, which is neither of us would let the other person leave or quit. she likes to go away and have space. Yeah. And I was like, no, no, no, no. Yeah. She's like, but I can't talk to you if you're going to raise your voice with me. Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, I'm not mad. I'm just, I'm jacked up.

20:09Yeah. And so I had to like, give me a second. And I was able to bring it down. I'm like, can you stay now if I can talk to you like this? And she goes, yes. Yeah. And like, it was the most amazing thing to get to the point where both people understood what happened. And in the moment where we were able to temper our tempers for no other reason than we wanted to get to resolution. And this is something we started a long time ago in our relationship, which is we don't fight to be right. We fight to get to resolution. And if we remember that or sometimes remind each other, simply remembering that we're in this together, like we're shoulder to shoulder, not across from each other.

20:49The idea of explaining how I feel versus this, you did this to me. The reason I'm recalling it now is because that's what helped, which is, let me just tell you what I'm feeling right now. I'm upset. I'm mad. I'm not feeling heard. I'm feeling isolated. I'm feeling confused. I don't know what to say next because I'm saying everything wrong. And it was all accountability. And it was the ability to, instead of cast blame for how I feel, what set us on the right path was simply the two of us talking about how we felt and owning those feelings. No blame, no attribution. It doesn't matter who started it.

21:25And in this moment, we'll figure out what happened so it doesn't happen again later. And I think that's the mistake I've made in the past, which is we want to go right to the source and say, well, this wouldn't have started if you didn't. And this idea of simply taking responsibility, I feel this. Not you did this, I feel this. I mean, it's absolutely brilliant. I mean, I love that we're coming to similar conclusions because I think that's the way we approach arguments now. Because when they arise, quickly the survival mode turns on and someone's trying to win, right? They're seeking dominance.

21:58They want to dominate the narrative. What happened? They want the apology, et cetera. But at some point in that argument, one of us will be able to pull our heads up above the water. And it's like, whoa, we're actually like, this is totally unproductive. We're not getting anywhere. And then we'll switch gears and do similar to what you're saying is, as opposed to winning, the goal becomes understanding. And when you're trying to understand, we want to take turns. Like we want to actively just listen as selflessly as possible. And the skill of selfless listening is just brutally difficult. It's hard.

22:35It's so hard. Brutally difficult. Especially in relationship. Yeah. Yeah. And in that moment, I'm like, okay, my goal is to listen to her perspective as best as I can so I can see how the series of events moved from her perspective, how they happened for her. And when she's saying her perspective, it's not, you did this, it's your fault. And it's not that. It's how I felt when this happened. In this moment, this is what I was feeling. This is what I was thinking. And you're just describing yourself. And I actually think a lot of that, I don't know if you're familiar with nonviolent communication, but there are elements of that in that form of communication and how we're talking about the way we deal with these arguments.

23:13but I found then that, I mean, no, no, I'm pretty sure this is Thich Nhat Hanh who said, love is understanding and that becomes the goal. It's not winning, it's understanding. And that moment, I mean, it's beautiful. Like when you get to that point where like you get how the series of events moved for her and then she listens to you as well. And you're both like, oh. And it doesn't make you wrong. It doesn't make your argument about who's right and who's wrong, which may still exist. And sometimes there is blame. Sometimes there is fault. Oh, totally. You know, but it doesn't diminish that. There's something beautiful that happens in that moment too, when you're listening to someone's story as selflessly as possible.

23:54And I'm talking about, you're actively not trying to think about your own. You're not trying to project onto what they're saying. You're just, you're like putting effort into like just taking it all in. And I think in that process, what I felt multiple times is like, you start realizing and remembering like how much you love this person. This person is not your enemy. This person is like, they are your best friend, your roommate, your lover, like the person that's like, you know, for oftentimes the center of the world for you. And I think it just creates so much harmony to be able to seek, you know, understanding.

24:30Cause like, if you're still trying to win, you're, you're both losing and honestly, you're just making your ego bigger. Boy, that describes so many things, politics and everything today, but that's a different conversation. Let me change tacks on you. Sure. A couple of things I'm curious about. One, do you remember the first poem you wrote? Do you actually remember it? Yes. I think love is beautiful when shared and perfect when given. I think that was the first thing I wrote after the first meditation course. It was just two tiny little lines. They're not in any book or anything. I don't know if I'm ever going to do anything more with them, but love is beautiful when shared but perfect when given but perfect when given yeah i think that first course helped me understand a lot about how that element of love like obviously you want to be in a relationship where you know things are moving both ways right it's reciprocal everything's flowing but i think it does take to a certain extent both people have to enter the relationship with open hands because only with open hands can you give and can you receive but when both people are actively giving, you both receive a ton.