Revisited: The Beautiful Brilliance of Boredom with Creative Polymath Elle Cordova

23:37Simon Sinek:also attracting smart and funny people I've been really lucky with the community I mean well you're attracting there's a lot of people like us there's a lot of nerds yes really like your stuff because you have to know a little bit about something yeah exactly to appreciate your humor and i've pushed it a little i'm like could i could i make a really weird obscure skit about like uh particles hanging out in this luniverse you know and talk about like the higgs boson like and a lot of people in the comments like i didn't know what that was and then i googled it and looked it up and now i know what it is and that makes me happy you know it's like a sort of gotcha now we're now we know more.

24:10Simon Sinek:But this is the genius of your work, because we live in a world with unlimited access to unlimited information. And yet still, we see a post online, or we hear a comment from a politician, or some CEO said something. And in the span of 10 seconds, we can verify that statement or not. Yeah. And we don't. I mean, I joke about it. Like I go around saying, so I read the study. I think it's true. I don't know. But here you go. I literally could verify it any day. But I don't. Yeah, there's just like, it's amazing how the momentum of laziness, when we have the access. And what I love about your work is it forces somebody to go, what is that?

24:51Simon Sinek:And they do go look it up. Not because they want to be smarter. It's because they want to get the joke. Exactly, exactly. You dangle the joke as a carrot, dangle the joke as a carrot, where all the other criteria of like all the other circumstances of like, what's that politician saying? What's that CEO saying? It's like, oh, I have to go be smart now. Oh, forget it. Yeah. You know, I'd rather just react. It's easier. But if the reward is getting in on a joke and getting to be part of this little community where everybody's joking in the comments, then yeah, maybe it's worth looking up what's a Higgs boson, you know?

25:21Simon Sinek:I want to go back to this idea of space because I'm so fascinated by the gaps in space. Do you force your schedule because you're busier now than you ever have been? Do you force gaps in space? Because for you, lockdown was a thing that unleashed this new new creativity do you make mini lockdowns for yourself yes absolutely well it taught me the value of that so how do you do that like do you schedule space like do you put a blank thing in your calendar where like there's presence and absence right it's like yeah i mean i would love to tell you that i'm really disciplined and i have my phone and it's locked in a safe like from my creative hours every morning i would love to tell you that I don't.

25:58I'm just as addicted to everything. I'm addicted to the supply that I give out, which is social media, dopamine, whatever, as the people who are consuming the stuff. But I think what I do try to do, though, is I try to consume more of the things that are going to fill me up creatively so that my output is better. So instead of spending four hours a day just combing through social media, trusting the algorithm to give me the things to fill me up, which it will not, you know, I will try to minimize that amount of time and try to instead replace it with like rereading Virginia Woolf's Room of One's Own or something.

26:36Something I know is going to, if I'm, especially if I'm going through a rut, I'll revisit the things that I know are going to light me on fire and they're going to create better output for me. Okay.

26:44Simon Sinek:So this is, this is, okay, this is good. So, um, I'm not a reader, which we've talked about. I'm over the shame, but I still have embarrassment. I'm not a reader, but I do still need those things. I've had to recreate my creative process every time I've had to do something creative because what worked before it doesn't work again. I don't believe in writer's block. Okay. Right. I believe that the format or system that you're using to create in the past isn't working anymore. So you're not having writer's block. It's not that you're having no ideas. The system is broken. Okay. And so what we do when people have writer's block, they keep doing the same system and blaming themselves.

27:21Simon Sinek:And I say, okay, I know I have ideas. I know I'm an idea guy. So if I'm having no ideas, am I broken? Or is the way I'm attempting to have ideas broken? And so I have experimented with, and every time I lock up on ideas, I break down on ideas, I change the way I'm coming up with ideas. But this idea of space, like I, when I realized I needed time, and so here's the thing. So I learned us a bunch of years ago, which is our rational brains, our thinking brains, the part that weighs the pros and cons and access our expertise, that has access to the equivalent of about two feet of information around us, right?

28:03Simon Sinek:Our subconscious brains, our limbic brains, have access to the equivalent of something like three acres of information around us. Every conversation we've had, every movie we've seen, every book we've read gets stored somewhere. You just don't have access to it. And so the value of the brainstorming session is not to solve the problem, it's to ask the questions. Because your brain won't ruminate on things that aren't presented. It won't just solve problems that don't exist in your life. You're not going to just, you know, come up with some random idea. Like a problem must exist, or a question must be asked.

28:32Simon Sinek:And then you can, quote unquote, think about it. But if you think about it, we have our best ideas when we're falling asleep, or we go for a run, or we're standing in the shower, or, you know, sitting sitting in traffic. Like it's when we're not quote unquote thinking, but the brain is still ruminating in the subconscious and it gives you the idea. And it seems like divine intervention, but it's not. It's just your limbic brain. It's been working on the problem. And it's been working on the problem the whole time. And so the problem is, is you need those gaps for the, for your mind to give you the ideas.

29:02Simon Sinek:And in our modern world, we have filled in all those gaps. So we don't sit on the subway on our commute and just stare off into space anymore. We're on our phones. We don't just sit in the car in traffic and just sort of let our minds wander. We make a phone call. I mean, you go out for dinner with a friend and they go to the bathroom. We don't just sit and like look around the room. Or talk to somebody. Or talk to somebody. We pull out our phones because it's too uncomfortable to just sit. And so I have worked very hard to force myself. Like if I go out for dinner, I give my phone to someone else.

29:37Simon Sinek:Be like, here's my phone, and put it in your bag. So when they go to the bathroom, they take my phone with them. That's smart. And so I'm forced because I have no willpower. I'm addicted like everybody else. But if you take away the crack, can't do crack. Yep. I do the same thing with daily walks. I don't allow myself to bring a phone. But you're creating space and gaps. Yeah. And those moments, and by the way, space and gaps can also be created going to a museum or it's just engaging in other passive stimulation. Not playing a game, not doing work, not surfing the internet, passive stimulation has been absolutely invaluable to my idea generation.

30:14But I think another important piece of it is something you said earlier, where you said a question must be asked. A question must be asked. We can't expect our brains, the brain that's ruminating and doing all this work behind the scenes, to be working on a problem that we haven't presented to it. Correct, it won't. It won't just spit out random ideas, like you said. So I think our brains are computers. There needs to be an input. We need to ask it something. We need to ask it to solve a problem. And the problem might be, what is my next idea? What is the thing I want to write about next or whatever?

30:42But we need to actively feed our brains those questions and give them something to work on.

30:48Simon Sinek:I think more specific than that, too, at least for me, you know, that's where the conversations happen. Because the backwards and forwards, backwards and forwards, you know, yes, there's answers in those conversations, but it raises more questions. And so it's not like, what's my next idea? But rather, like, why are we friends? Yeah. And then you start saying, why are we friends? Okay, like, I understand the biology. I understand the anthropology. I can look that stuff up. that's pretty written about. What is a friend? Now it gets complicated. Yeah. So it's not just asking a question, what is my next idea?

31:16It's asking specific questions about specific.

31:18Simon Sinek:And they can be big problems like, help me understand the world order as we know it post-Cold War. That's something I've actually thought about, right? Like, what is the new world order? And it's such a big question that it's not going to be one. And that's why all the conversations and all of the articles I'm reading and all of the people I'm interacting who have different points of view, I'll either ask directly, so what do you think about the world right now? And it's all feeding that until at some point you go, aha, I have an idea. You need, I guess, two things. You need to ask three things.

31:50Simon Sinek:You need the question to be posed, big or small. You need to feed it with data through conversations, reading, whatever your chosen preferred way of intake is. And then, and only then, do you need space and gaps. and we do the first, we do the second, we don't do the third. And I think this is the thing, and there's been stuff written about this. There's a basic global decline in ideas. Like the number of patents that are filed these days is vastly fewer than in the past. Wow, that's terrifying. And the quality of the patents is lower. And so we know that there's fewer ideas that are happening.

32:27Simon Sinek:And I think this idea of space and gaps, and if we're going to be a hyper-scheduled, hyper-connected world, not rebelling against it, just it is what it is, then schedule gaps. See, now I know you are an optimist. This is sort of central to you. It has been, I've been accused of such. I will say the pessimistic take on this is, and I'm not calling myself a pessimist, although I have tendencies, is that now that we have the technology we have, we won't in any meaningful way be able to make those spaces the way that you're saying. And instead, I think what will happen is we'll channel our decision-making, our idea generation into our technology.

33:12Soon we're going to have, you know, you talk about the decline in patents. We're going to have AI coming up with a lot of solutions for us that we simply haven't devoted the brain resources to think about because we don't have to anymore. We have a much bigger, smarter brain to sort of solve those problems for us.

33:28Simon Sinek:I don't think it's either or. I think it's both. I think, you know, just as the calculator or the abacus could help us do calculations faster, the calculator upped that ante. Certain things in mathematics or going to the supermarket got quicker. And so I think where math got quicker, ideas will get quicker, but that doesn't mean that the machine has the lock on all the ideas. And I still think that a human-generated idea will always be the kind of idea that it's the asymmetrical idea. It's the idea that nobody could see happening because, and maybe I just either underestimate the power of the machine or overestimate the power of the brain, the human brain.

34:11I have a more pessimistic view in general of like, you know, I think that machines will take a lot of our purpose, you know. But I do think there will be ways for us to work with them and alongside them to also generate ideas, continue generating ideas. There'll always be a premium on human-made creations, human-generated ideas. But I do think that a lot of the really heavy lifting, problem-solving, the things that you'll need patents for, that's all going to – I think we're going to see a major shift.

34:43Simon Sinek:And then the question is, can you put a patent on the thing that a machine came up with? The company who made the machine will probably get the patent. Yeah, that's where IP law is going to get completely destroyed. Have you found this in your work yet? I know in the art world, artists are being asked to sign affidavits to affirm that this was designed and produced by them and not by AI. Have you found that in your work yet, that people are asking you to say, did you actually come with this or did the machine come up with this for you? Not yet. I'm sure it's coming. And I'm sure I've signed some agreement already that's signed away all my creative rights.

35:14Simon Sinek:It's not just the creative rights. They want the affirmation that the person came up with it. That it wasn't AI generated? So like, hey, this little cute little skit you wrote, this little poem that you write. That is in many contracts, yeah. So they want to know that you wrote it and you did not write it with AI. Yep. So that's what I mean, which is we're not buying the product. We're buying the story. Yeah. Well, you're buying a piece of the creator. You're buying a piece, but you're buying the fact that, hey, she did this. Right, exactly. And there's a premium on the man-made, the human-made.

35:46Yeah. Yeah. And I'm not saying that all like AI assisted art is worthless and should be thrown in the trash. No, no. Agreed, agreed, agreed. But I do think there will always be a premium on human, fully human made things. I mean, we don't watch, we don't sit around for fun watching computers talk to each other, play chess against each other. We watch humans play chess. It's more interesting to us. Yeah. They're better at it, but we watch humans.

36:10Simon Sinek:Because we like watching the mistake, the potential for the mistake. Right. It's true. Isn't that beautiful though? That the reason we find a human game more interesting, even though they're not as good, is the drama of the pressure and the mistake is the part that we find entertaining. Exactly. It's not actually the gameplay. Right. It's the human drama. Oh, I love that. I think one of the really good sides of the AI, and by the way, I can't have a freaking conversation without AI coming up. Oh, I'm sure this is just all over the podcast. every conference every other talk is AI but is I think it'll help us appreciate because we have this at least in America we have this sort of vomit reaction to the concept of boredom like that it's some sort of you cannot be bored you know and I think boredom is the ultimate space where you sit there staring off at the clouds not knowing what to do and you're kind of like how are you i don't know a little bored got nothing to do and i think there's joy in the appreciation of boredom because as i was saying before for a curious mind it goes right back to the beginning for a curious mind there's always questions and problems being asked and yet there's not enough solutions to all the questions yeah and i think boredom and joy of boredom is the thing that not only keeps us human but helps us see things find things invent things write things paint things sing things that the machine never can never will and i think i think in this hyper creative not hyper creative hyper productive world that we live in where the machines are just making us even more productive that our creativity comes from being bored not from being active.

38:02Yeah, I think I agree because boredom is the very space you were talking about. We need to create spaces where we can allow ourselves to, and I don't know if boredom is exactly the right word, but allow our brains to be freed of distraction.

38:14Simon Sinek:By boredom, I mean, I have nothing to do. Yeah. I have nothing to do, at most, walking. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and that's why I take my, I guess you could call them boredom walks. I take my, like, enforced boredom walks so that I'm forcing my brain to think, to just, whether it's problem solving or just thinking about the world around me or whatever it is, I think it's really important that I don't have my device and I'm just forced for the next 45 minutes, however long the walk is to my destination to just ruminate. And the important thing here is that it's okay if nothing happens. Oh yeah, absolutely.

38:47Simon Sinek:By applying pressure to the boredom is the paradox, is the exact problem we're trying to solve for. Or giving permission for boredom. Giving permission. I can just be bored. I don't have to solve problems on my walk. And that's one of the things that people don't realize, which is I actually, I won't schedule anything in my calendar for Fridays. Now, I work on Fridays, but I will not pre-schedule anything on a Friday. It has to be blank. So that if I choose to have three hours or four hours of whatever I want, which includes staring off at a wall, that is my prerogative. And this is expanded because I used to do hour, like I would literally put an hour break in my calendar to do nothing.

39:22Simon Sinek:I would schedule nothing. Not that I'm scheduling nothing. I'm scheduling to do nothing. Yeah, that's important. The act of nothing. And I think in any job, I don't care what your job is. I don't care if you're a homemaker. I don't care if you're a caretaker or a parent. I don't care if you're in a creative job, a non-creative job. I think all problems are solved. And maybe boredom just has bad branding. Yeah, it does. What should we call it? because we can't call it creative space because that creates pressure that the space has to be creative and it doesn't. Maybe a period of stasis or openness.

40:03Simon Sinek:Good nothing. Yeah, good nothing. I'm going to do good nothing for an hour. Yeah.

40:11Simon Sinek:I like good nothing. What are you doing right now? Good nothing. You want to do something? It's my good nothing time. I'm doing my good nothing time. Yeah. I like that. like that yeah it's better than boredom it's better than boredom because i'm not bored i mean sometimes i am right i mean i've i went out for dinner with a friend last night and you know she went to the bathroom and i sat there and just stared around in the restaurant and yeah i was bored and started wondering like she okay like she's been gone a long time i wish she'd come back i'm kind of bored do you have the same paranoia that i do when you go out for dinner with a friend especially if it's a new friend and there's a line at the bathroom that you're in a restaurant and so or somebody's in there for far too long and you're just waiting for them to come out and so you find yourself waiting for a very long time and then immediately you have the paranoia that the other person thinks that you have like stomach problems or something because you've been gone a long time but and i always come up like oh my god the line was really long somebody was in there it's not me it's not my stomach problems i was i was really quick in there i have that intense paranoia that somebody thinks i'm sick because i was gone well sometimes i do have stomach problems and i'll say it even then there's such a long line sneaky sneaky okay i have a couple more questions okay what's the thing you've dealt with what's the challenge you've for me it's it's anxiety it's an intense you know panic disorder i get panic attacks um they used to be incredibly bad when i was a teenager and then into like early 20s college um almost crippling I had intense agoraphobia, could barely leave my apartment and was like untreated, you know, during those times.

41:46And I kept thinking.

41:47Simon Sinek:Agoraphobia is afraid of outside. Yeah, like not being able to leave your place because of fears of anxiety, panic attacks, which are happening anyway. So, yeah. So, yeah, I think just thinking back to those memories, it was just like, again, like a warning sign. like if I don't get my stuff together and I don't get treated this is the the ultimate reality and it's going to tear family apart and you know how old were you when you started to be like I think I need someone to look after me well that's a good thing about having you know grandparents that have gone through stuff like that is you realize early on that you know this is a this is a thing that needs to be treated it's a condition you know so I was probably 16 when I finally started to ask for help because I was having such intense panic attacks at school.

42:39I was having to leave classes, which is, like we said earlier, I'm afraid of authority. I like to be a good student when I can. Having to run out of class and look like I'm skipping or something was not.

42:50Simon Sinek:Which only added to the anxiety. Yeah, knowing that you have to be in class. Is it under control now? I would say it's as under control as it probably ever will be to the point where I can live a normal life, but I just, I always have to deal with panic attacks. How often do they happen now? It depends. If I'm traveling, if there's like a lot of going on, especially if I'm traveling, I'll have them regularly in my travels. So maybe every few days or sometimes multiple times a day. But if I'm home in my routines and I'm taking care of myself and everything, then maybe once in a month. Is there a reason you choose to talk about it?

43:27I mean, I just think we could all just talk more about our mental health. I feel two ways about it because I also think there's like an over, maybe an over-diagnosing. We over-diagnose things, yeah. Yeah.

43:40Simon Sinek:Like everybody who's a little bit, you know, everybody's OCD, right? Yeah, like we have - They don't realize what real OCD is, which is deep, deep, deep superstition like your grandmother had. Yeah, yeah. There are so many forms of it, but yeah, that's how her is manifested. But yeah, I think, you know, on one hand we have people, I think over-diagnosing themselves and others and their friends and talking about it. And then I think there's another side of it where, you know, people who have really struggled with severe debilitating mental illness still don't really want to talk about it. And I think it's, it's just better for everybody if we get the word out there that, that these things happen because, you know, you, if you don't, it just gets worse, it festers and then we have negative outcomes, you know so have you ever written a poem about it no it's weird how i find that the things that are the most personal and then go down the deepest are things i i can't seem to get myself to write about maybe that'll change i don't know maybe one day but i like to just find solace in like humor and distract away from that i do find it ironic that you are such a rule follower and you sort of respect authority figures and running out of class created more anxiety.

44:54It's not that I respect authority figures.

44:56Simon Sinek:Fine, but you like rules. I am afraid to break the rules. Yet you count cards and are banned from casinos. But that's not a good feeling when I see the suits swarming because they get the pit bosses together. They start swarming. I hear the telephones ringing. I know they're coming. I hate that. I get all sweaty. Do you try and anticipate it and leave before they throw you out? No, I just let it happen because, yeah, it's just better to know because sometimes you're wrong. Sometimes they're actually just hanging out talking about something else, you know, and then they all disperse. So, no, they'll come over.

45:27And they're generally pretty nice, I will say.

45:29Simon Sinek:They haven't broken the law. Well, right. They'll say something really sweet like, ma 'am, I'm sorry, but your play is just a little too advanced for us. We won't be able to take your action here. But you're welcome to, you know, enjoy yourself at the bar or any other game in the casino. They invite you to play craps. You're welcome to lose your money at our other places where you don't have the advantage. Other ones ban you, though, from the whole premises. So it just depends on if you get a mall cop type pit boss. Yeah. By the way, I have to insert a warning. If you're listening to this podcast, the conversation is about to get incredibly nerdy.

46:06Simon Sinek:And we're going to talk about Star Wars and archetypes and in-depth characters. And if you don't know what we're talking about and you don't like Star Wars, perhaps go listen to a podcast another podcast right now so you and i um the first time we met we very quickly bonded about our love of science fiction you skew star trek i skew star wars i mean i love them almost equally that is not true if you put a gun to my head and you told me i had to only keep one i would say star trek i know that because no one it's like there's no such thing as I love Star Trek and Star Wars equally. It is impossible and it doesn't exist for anyone.

46:42I come very close.

46:44Simon Sinek:Well, you're the one. But you still skew. You still skew. And only because there's more of Star Trek. I've spent more hours. I've vlogged more hours. There's more to consume. Whatever. Whatever the reason. I just want to belong to both fandoms. No one is 50-50 on Star Trek and Star Wars. Everybody skews one way. I like Star Trek. I love Star Wars. Yeah. I like Star Trek and I like different Star Treks. you know like i'm a trekker not a trekkie okay which means i like next generation ah which apparently they call themselves trekkers i didn't know that i mean maybe i'm not a real member of the community maybe maybe i'm wrong or it's outdated because there's been so many star treks since then so i don't know what the new bifurcations are there wouldn't be bifurcations because that's only two things but but i don't know what the new delineations are but it was my understanding when next generation came out that you were a trekker if you were like into the next generation you're a trekkie if you're into the old captain kirk stuff okay i learned something new that's that's amazing i don't think i didn't notice my bedazzled yeah this is amazing and i don't know how the camera angle is but i love that i'm i'm associated here with the dark side you are associated with the lone rebel hero yeah i like that because in my mind i think i've said this elsewhere, Star Wars, Star Wars is not the story of the Skywalkers.

48:03It's not even the story of a beautiful rebellion against an oppressive regime. It's the story of a brilliant political strategist named Chief Palpatine, whose Machiavellian plans were foiled by dumb luck and familial relations. And if I get canceled for anything off of this podcast, it's going to be for being a Palpatine apologist. I just love Palpatine as a character.

48:27Simon Sinek:I know you do. Yeah. I mean, yeah. You just have to admire the man. It's like he lays - I mean, he'll stop at nothing. He stops nothing, like most villains, but he goes so much further because he lays the most intricate plan and it's just airtight. I mean, he creates the Clone Wars. He's orchestrating things on both sides. Yeah. No, he's an evil genius. Just an intense genius. and also one of the most gifted force users of all time. Happens to be both. Happens to be an evil mastermind and a gifted force user. It takes both, you know, Anakin and Luke. It takes a cheap shot betrayal to kill him in the end.

49:06And even that doesn't kill him.

49:08Simon Sinek:And a great actor. Because he pretends to be good when he's really bad and, like, got everybody fooled. His genial senator, like, personality. What a sweet old man, you know? So charming. and then his like dark, horrible voice. Right. Such an incredible, like it's the perfect amount of camp in that voice. It doesn't go too far somehow, but it's just perfect. One of the things I think that the reason Star Wars is important in the world is because the archetypes of all the characters are so true, so consistent that everybody, you can learn about anybody by saying, which one are you? And like, are you a Han Solo?

49:52Simon Sinek:Are you Luke Skywalker? Are you C-3PO? Are you R2-D2? Are you Darth Vader? Like everybody knows who they are and you can know everything. Like I have a friend who's like, oh, I am so C-3PO. Like that's - I also have a best friend who is 100 % C-3PO. And you know everything. Okay, so let's compare. I'll just tell you what my friend was like and you tell me if your friend was the same. Okay. Like service oriented, like loves to like take care of people and like get things done for them. finds joy in like getting through the checklist extremely organized yes right yes this is what i'm saying they're archetypes so you can learn everything about a person simply by them telling you which star wars character they are they're they find most like them or most drawn to so who would star trek character or start wars character are you so um i am an equal lover of boba of boba Fett and Han Solo.

50:44Simon Sinek:Okay. I'm full. You know, if you force me, like gun to your head, pick one.

50:55Simon Sinek:I mean, I had two computers at a laptop and a desktop and one was named Han Solo and the other one was named Boba Fett. Yeah. But if I don't know how to choose, can you guess why I like those? No, I'm trying to imagine. You and I have hung out a little bit. We're not besties, but you know me enough, I think. I mean, I can tell you I've thought about it plenty. Well, why Boba Fett? Tell me that one. Okay, well, I can't talk about Boba Fett without talking about Han Solo. They're both incredibly independent, right? Like Boba Fett is just, he's a bounty hunter, but he works for himself, right? And Han Solo, super independent.

51:32Simon Sinek:I guess maybe I'm more like Han Solo than Boba Fett. Boba Fett's just so damn cool. He's just so damn cool. He is. so I guess more like Han Solo which is fiercely independent begrudgingly like really wants to be a part of the group but really wants to be himself and is in constant battle like I want to be my own person but I want to be a part of the team but I want to be my own person but I want to be a part of that team and as independent as he is always goes everywhere with a friend Chewy just yeah so that's where I'm different than Boba Fett but Boba Fett's a total loner. And really loyal to those friends.

52:10And super loyal to those friends

52:11Simon Sinek:and plays up the independent, like I don't really care about you guys, but he really does a lot. Oh, 100%. And so it's the hyper independence, but the constant struggle of, I want to be my own self, but I also want to be a part of the group at all times, that paradox, but also as independent he is, he goes everywhere with a friend. And that rebel spirit of let's just give it a try, to me is, I so identify with Han Solo. Yeah. I think for me, it's, well, I love Palpatine. And I'd love to say I identify, I mean, obviously in the real world, authoritarian regimes, tyrants, ew, gross, don't want anything to do with it.

52:44In the world of Star Wars, he is such, I won't call him a dynamic character because he never changes. Like, you know, a dynamic character is one who like discovers something about themselves and has changed. And in the process, we as viewers change too because we learn something about ourselves. That's not Palpatine. He literally never changes. He's static throughout. but that character is so well drawn. And so...

53:06Simon Sinek:So what about you as Palpatine? Well, he's a planner and I like to be a planner. His plans tragically did not work out through real no fault of his own. But yeah, I'm inspired by his scheming. I won't say that I see myself in him entirely. I think if I really had to pick a character, I would say R2-D2. Because R2-D2 is also... By the way, the original, it's the original episode four five six that are the perfect archetypes it's those yeah those those are the characters the original characters although you really see palpatine shine in one two and three exactly but you and i have had this fight which is you can keep your one two three and i'll start star wars as a palpatine fan you got to watch the prequels i watched them no i know i know watch them again but they're they're worth it for palpatine okay so what is about r2d2 r2d2 is r2 is incredibly underestimated and i like that he's he always seems to know exactly what's going on he's like privy to more information than we are even aware like everybody's writing him off as this little droid it's like oh get out of the way you trash can you know but but he's always saving the day he's prepared he he knows where the map of where you know luke skywalker is at.

54:18He's just behind the scenes, just so instrumental to everything. The entire mission.

54:25Simon Sinek:Are you underestimated? And I want to say what I like about him is that he's not out there being flashy about it. He's just... Get the job done. Yeah, he gets the job done. He's really capable. Really much smarter than people think. And humble about it. And he's funny. And I just think that... I don't know. I relate to R2 in that way. You know? Unexpectedly funny. Yeah. Good planner. Yeah. Always lurking in the background. But like, yeah. Not a big bragger. No, he doesn't. That describes you. Yeah. I mean, to be fair, we don't know what he's saying. Only C-3PO can understand. But we assume that C-3PO is accurately translating because that's C-3PO's nature.

55:03Simon Sinek:He's a translator. And I love the relationship between them because R2 is always like checking C-3PO, who is kind of braggadocious. Right. But anyway, I just, I really like R2-D2. He's probably the most secure character in all of them. Yeah. all of them have their baggage and he doesn't he's kind of like he just gets his shit going and gets the job done there's a reason why Anakin bends over backwards to protect him through the Clone Wars the animated series and take him with he's the chosen there's an episode where he almost gets left behind and it's like oh it's a lost cause it's just a droid just let him get destroyed with the ship and Anakin's like nope I'm actually going to go risk my life to get my friend right yeah so i think that that's a perfect way to to end this and to move into roswell which is uh i think you are a friend that everyone would be lucky to have you by their side you are r2d2 thank you simon i won't call you c3po because you're not that but you're you're han solo so yeah i am uh can i ask a favor yeah this is totally selfish totally selfish um i've I've discovered you because of this magical song called Roswell.

56:16Simon Sinek:Oh, yeah. My favorite thing about the song is it's accurate. Yeah. It's intensely accurate. Every line. And I knew the story of Roswell. Yeah. And how it became a thing that it wasn't. It's not aliens, but it's funny. And I love that every line of that song is an education. Like if somebody sings along, they're smarter. Here's one thing, though, that I kind of got slightly wrong. and I'm going to take this opportunity to correct myself. So I mentioned the CIA. And technically, the CIA was created like a month after. It was the OSS. Yeah, I don't know. Was it? I don't know the exact. I mean, it was CIA-ish.

56:54Simon Sinek:Right. It was the precursor. But the CIA was formed kind of in the wake of this event. So maybe because of this event. We don't know. But I did mention that they called the CIA, which technically they couldn't have done that. They couldn't have done that, but they called the OSS. But it's a fun line. It's a great line. It's a fun line to put in there. So let's just be clear what happened at Roswell. I mean, well, actually, we don't have to. My ask is, can you please sing the song? Yeah. I can tell you exactly what happened in Roswell by singing the song. By singing the song. But first, tell us the origin story of the song.

57:22Simon Sinek:How did that song come to be? So Tony and I were, Tony's the lead guitarist in my band, and we were coming back from Minneapolis having played a show, and we decided, since we're coming close, we're going through New Mexico to get back to LA. I was like, we have to visit Roswell. Like, that's, as a space nerd, you know. It's Mecca. I'm less into conspiracy theories, but whatever. I just wanted to see it. So we stopped through Roswell. We were there for two days. And then on our way out, we were actually about to leave. The van broke down. And it broke down hard. They had to get some obscure piece that they needed to send in.

57:58And we ended up being there for 10 full days while the van was being fixed.

58:02Simon Sinek:10 days? 10 days. I mean, that's like, OK. That's a long time to be. It was a long time. And they kept saying, oh. And Roswell's in the middle of nowhere, right? Yeah, there's not much to do other than learn about the incident and go to the museum and all the like kitschy alien things. It's great. I mean, even the McDonald's there has like alien. It's like a spaceship. And it's really it's really a cute town. I liked it a lot. And everybody was super nice. So I would I was asking locals about it. I was going to the museum. I was reading books about it. Like, what else are you going to do for 10 days in Roswell?

58:32And then I was like, we have to write a song over here. So before we left, we wrote the song and then we filmed it in front of the Roswell water tower.

58:42Simon Sinek:I hate to point this out. Okay. But Roswell was your lockdown. It was your blank space. It was your good nothing. Yeah, it was. And good nothing. You had nothing to do. You're bored because you've exhausted everything there is to do in Roswell. The only thing left to do was to be creative. Exactly. That's exactly right. Maybe we shouldn't call it good nothing. Maybe we should call it Roswell time. I like that. I need some Roswell time. Yep. I like that. I need to be stuck in Roswell to create something. I like it. It's great. Roswell time it is. Okay. So amazing. We have El Cordova and Tony Lindgren, and they're going to perform Roswell for us.

59:18Yeah. Yes, we have to do it. All right. One, two.

59:45Thank you.

1:00:04The D.O.D.

1:00:05Simon Sinek:and we call the CIA There's big news today out in Roswell That sleepy New Mexico town And Major Marcel What can you tell us about Roswell Well, the Roswell Army Airfield sent their finest personnel. A rank and file officer was a young Major Marcel. A Major told a story and it echoed round the globe. Flying saucer captured at an old New Mexico. But the orders came from Washington, materials were changed. The town was hushed in silence and Macarazal was detained. They scooped up all the evidence and flew into Fort Worth. Staged a couple of photos and the headlines were reversed. There's nothing to see here in Roswell.

1:01:16A torn up old weather blue. Agent Marcel was mistaken as well About Roswell Get it, Tony

1:01:52The years pass on in Roswell But the story still persists Rumors turn to theories And theories turn to myth But to his dying day The major swore on he had There's no way in hell The film that fell was made by human hands This is the mystery Lives on out in Roswell At creepy New Mexico Oh, it's how Major Marcel What can't you tell us about Roswell?

1:02:42The story of Roswell. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you very much.

1:02:49Simon Sinek:A Bit of Optimism is a production of The Optimism Company, lovingly produced by our team, Lindsay Garbenius, Phoebe Bradford, and Devin Johnson. Subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts, and if you want even more cool stuff, visit simonsynic.com. Thanks for listening. Take care of yourself. Take care of each other.