The Culture That Converts Even the Biggest Cynics with former WD-40 CEO Garry Ridge

24:39to help you step into the best version of your personal self. Because I know, I know you've got it in you. And I just want to see you win. Oh my God, where do I sign up? Yeah. One of the things that WD40 does is when you get a promotion,

24:53Simon Sinek:and I think throughout your tenure, but when you get a promotion to a managerial position, you offer teaching to those people so they know how to coach. Because we don't expect people to know how to coach. And it goes back to what we say before, which is we don't expect people to know how to lead. We don't teach them how to lead. and by changing the terminology, I think because most people would be insecure to say, I don't know how to lead, give me the job. But I think people would be very comfortable saying, no idea how to coach, but I'd love to learn. The language is a lower bar. And it's a very clever thing.

25:24Simon Sinek:And so I know you teach people how to coach. Yeah, well, we actually changed, we took out the word manager. So it doesn't exist on the company. Was coach. So if I had the privilege of leading you, I was your coach. and it's amazing once you change the description and can describe what the behavior should be so I would say you're a coach and here's what the coach is all about what I just shared with you a few minutes ago right and your job is to coach and we used to mandate that at least every 90 days our coaches would sit down with those that have the privilege to lead and talk about what's getting in your way?

26:01How are you? Are you okay? You know, what is it that I need to do to help you succeed? How do you think you're succeeding against our goals? You know, the book I wrote with Ken Blanchard called Helping People Win at Work. The tie line was, I'm not here to mark your paper, I'm here to help you get an A. So our job as coaches was to define what an A looks like, because that's very important. Most people let people down because they don't clearly define if an A walked in the door today, what it would look like. After defining that, my role as a coach is to help you get the A. And that's what we used to sit down and talk about all the time.

26:39Unfortunately, a lot of people, a lot of leaders and managers protect their own comfort zone at the expense of other people's development. That's where the bravery comes in. And it normally happens because there's not clarity around what do we expect from each other.

26:54Simon Sinek:Can you tell me a story of somebody who came to the company. They heard the hype. They met the people. The interviews, I'm sure, were quite different and quite wonderful. The company liked them. They offered them a job. They liked the company. They said yes. But they brought bad habits. They once bitten twice shy. They'd worked for some people who said all the right things. And in good times, they might have even done it. But as soon as a little stress was added to the system, micromanagement showed up. Regression showed up. Removing accountability showed up. Removing agency showed up. Somebody who's cynical, who, how did you, like, how do you treat that person?

27:29Yeah, I mean, you know, one of the things I used to do was about 90 days after someone joined the company, I'd go to them and say, did we lie to you around, you know, what we promised? And in every circumstance, they said, it's better than you ever described it. So, you know, we'd have people that would come in the company and they would go, oh, yeah, sure. but then it's up to us as leaders in the organization to help them understand what the key elements are of success within the organization. Interestingly enough, if they didn't fall into the line, the tribe would vote them off the island. It wouldn't have to be us.

28:08I have shared people with competitors. There's no doubt about that. In the end, I want people to be happy in the organization and if you're not happy, go somewhere else. Yeah, of course. But the story that's really cool is when I talk about how in an organization you can use your values to really help redirect people. And this is a nearly true story. Names are changed to protect the innocent. Sure. We're in a meeting one morning, a group of leaders, and there's someone in the room that is sucking the energy out of the room. You've been in one of those meetings, right? And our second value at the company was we value creating positive, lasting memories in all of our relationships.

28:49This person was not creating a positive, lasting memory. So what do you do as the leader? Well, you could ignore the behavior, which means the whole structure of the culture is going to collapse. Because everyone else in the room says, well, you may as well have that up on the wall, but you're never going to act on it, right? You can stop the meeting immediately and say, Simon, that behavior is unacceptable. Everybody else in the room says, when am I going to be publicly executed? So the meeting came to an end. And you recall our new building in San Diego. I walked out of the room. I said, I'll use Simon as the account.

29:23Simon, let's go for a walk. So I walk out of the building and I look in a trash can under a car and behind a bush. And Simon says, what the hell are you doing? I said, Simon, the you I know and love was not in that room today. What's on your mind? what's getting in your way how can I help you and Simon starts to talk well I had a bad morning I kicked my foot on the bed you know I spilled coffee someone flipped me off so it wasn't but we were able to have that conversation I said well Simon you live our value of creating positive lasting memories every day and today was just one of those learning moments for you so I wanted to make sure you were aware of that he said geez I'm sorry Gary we had a hug He goes back into the office, visits a few people and says, hey, you know, that wasn't me.

30:11They say, are you okay? What's getting in your way? What's on your mind? The next morning, I noticed people going to him and say, is everything okay today? That's the thing about when you have a clear set of values and you live them, where you can show people that it's not about, you know, you're not performing, but what's going inside you. And I love the story you tell about the sales guy, right? The guy's not getting his sales three months in a row. And instead of going in and reefing out of himself, you say, what's up? Are you okay? And I think that's what's really important. Showing people true concern about wanting to live who you are is so important.

30:55Simon Sinek:Have you noticed a difference in the younger generation of employees who came into WD-40? I mean, because every generation brings both the advantages and baggage of their generation, right? Not better or worse, just different. Our movement, if we are part of the same movement, even if companies don't believe in it, and even if they don't follow it, they're all forced to have purpose statements on their website, which I see as a win. At least socially, they have to keep up appearances for this thing that they don't want to believe it, right? Things like boundaries, things like mental health, these are kind of expected from this younger generation of the places they come to work.

31:30Simon Sinek:Can you talk about how both the successes and the challenges you had of a younger generation coming into your culture? I think the older generation are the worst ones. Because the younger ones coming in are aligned with what you and I believe in. And I haven't met... Well, we've built our movement railing against the boomers. Right. Yeah, yeah. But I haven't met a person, young, old, or even my dog, who doesn't benefit by knowing they belong and they matter. And they want to learn. So I think the younger generations coming in, they're ready to go as long as you are there to show them they belong and they matter.

32:13They have a cynicism too, right?

32:14Simon Sinek:I do. They grew up in a world where their parents were laid off. It's not a meritocracy. and so there's a reason why when you and I were young we believed that you work hard you do the extra work then you go to your boss and say look at all what I've done give me the raise and the younger generation says give me the raise and you see what I'm going to do and that could be interpreted as entitlement I understand it as they grew up in a world where there's no loyalty from the company so get your money while you can because you may not last I understand where it comes from but at the end of the day when you and I, you know, when somebody comes to us and says, you know, give me the money and you see what I'm going to do.

32:53Simon Sinek:And we're going, well, why don't you do the work? And I'll be happy to take care of you. Like, just talk to me how the very practical ways in which a culture like WD-40 adapts for a very different perspective from different people. So here's one example. You know, once upon a time you had these annual reviews, right, where you are actually looking backwards. Yeah. Well, maybe now the way to go is having steps along the way so you can recognize performance. So the younger people, instead of saying, work here for 12 months and become a senior something or a new role in the position, you have steps along the way that says, okay, three months in, now I'm going to give you this responsibility and we'll give you this.

33:34So it's encouraging them to think the way that you and I are talking about, which is you are going to be rewarded. You're not going to be forgotten. and I think a lot of cases that old annual review system was really working negative because I don't want to wait 364 days for you to tell me what I should have done better or how good I've done. What I want to do is be coached along the way. So I think that was a typical example. But it goes back to that one thing I said earlier, Simon, that I haven't met anybody who doesn't feel better if you show them they belong. I haven't met anybody who doesn't feel better if you show them you're going to help them learn.

34:14Or that they actually matter in the organization. It's just fundamental. And I've always hated the annual review because having done them and having been on the receiving end of them, you can only remember the past couple of months anyway.

34:28Simon Sinek:So if somebody's been a complete screw up for the past two months, but they've had sort of 10 months of magic, the 10 months are completely forgotten. Gone. Gone. Or conversely, 10 months of complete screw up in the last two months, you're like, you're amazing at that too. You're right. You're challenging me. Here's my very real struggle. We have a small company. I agree with everything you've said. I don't do everything you say. And I know that I can do better even using the language. We don't call our people coaches. I'm thinking maybe we should. We don't use the term tribe. I'm thinking maybe we should.

35:07Simon Sinek:the annual reviews we do do them even though we're not a fan of them uh and the the the idea of planning towards the future we're getting better at helping people understand what an a looks like you're challenging me to to do the things that i know are important um here's where i feel a very real strain which is just time which is energy which is i feel pulled in every different direction i can't do it all how do i how do i get all these things accomplished how do i build this new plan to move forwards? How do I help all my people learn to coach somebody to get to an A? How do I define what the A is?

35:42Simon Sinek:I'm a little overwhelmed. I want to do it all. And I'm a little overwhelmed. Well, imagine how efficient and how better the organization would be if you did it all. No, I get all that. I mean, imagine how much healthier I would be if I worked out every day and only ate celery. Like, yeah, sure. Yeah, no, I know all that. I know all that. And unfortunately, focusing on the urgent at the expense of the important is part of the challenge of any leadership position. You're right. This is not easy, man. And so I want to know from your very real experience, I guess I'm answering my own question, which is you don't do it all at once.

36:17Simon Sinek:You pick one. You do that. You ask for help. No. And you do the next one. Yeah, this took 25 years. Well, it took about five years to gain momentum when I first started to implement a lot of this stuff. Five years to gain momentum, which means it wasn't even fully implemented or completed. It was momentum. Right. And then it becomes. So I have to give myself some grace that this is an ongoing process and it's not a finite game. You know, it's not fairy dust. Yeah, yeah. It takes work. You know, fundamental foundations, here they were. Clearly defined purpose. Have we got it? Yeah. Set of values.

36:50Do we have them? Yeah. Are they hierarchical? Right. Are they clearly defined? Yes. Okay. Now, what's next? let's get rid of the word manager and put the word coach in yeah great and then let's take fear out of the organization which was an amazing thing we did where we said we do not make mistakes we have learning moments and what's the definition of a learning moment a positive or negative outcome of any situation that needs to be openly and freely shared to benefit all people now when i implemented the learning moment here's a true story yeah so i'm a couple of years in now as the CEO, drunk the Kool-Aid of Ken Blanchard.

37:31I said, we're going to reduce fear. We're going to have learning moments now. So what I want you to do is I want you to email me and tell me a negative or a positive learning moment that you've had in the organization. And by the way, we're going to have a contest and we're going to have winners every month. And at the end of the contest, we're going to send someone around the world first class to do something. The first month, I got three. So what did I do? I made heroes out of these three people who were brave enough to share a negative learning moment. They were going to be stars in my view.

38:04The next month, they get six. What did I do? I made heroes of them. The next month, I got 24. And then by the end of the program, I'm getting hundreds. But it takes time to build a lack of fear in the organization that, you know, sure, I'm going to tell you what failed and you're not going to come down on me or you're not going to embarrass me. No, we're going to use it. So, you know, I say imagine a place where you go to work every day. You make a contribution to something bigger than yourself. You learn something new. You're protected and set free by a compelling set of values and you go home happy.

38:42Happy people build happy families. Happy families build happy communities. Happy communities build a happy world. We need a happy world. And it's as you said, Simon, you know, who wants to go to work when dad and mom come home and sit around the dinner table and bitch about how badly they've been treated? Now, one of these young kids are running away and say, I don't want to ever do that. But what happens if they go out happy and say, you know, I had the best day today. I learned this. I was respected. You know, I was treated fairly. Now, I've had crucial conversations. I've had redirection conversations.

39:16applications i've had opportunities where i've had to let people move on to something but through that whole 25 years simon we never laid a person off ever through any upturn downturn whatever because we said we were there together to do what we needed to do together but there were some people that didn't fit the company okay go be happy somewhere else i want you to leave with respect and dignity and i want you to go and find a place to be if this is not for you that's okay so you know i think it's again values plus behavior times consistency i like the addition i got that from the marine corps i know i quoted it in my culture equals values plus behavior but

39:53Simon Sinek:i like the addition cultures equals values plus behavior time consistency i think that's 100 % true yeah it's not a one and done the annual off site here are values here the what we expect and you're done it's you know a lot of people think this is the soft stuff and it's not this is hard yeah because if it was easy we'd all be doing it we wouldn't have 70 percent of people going to work every day disengaged or actively disengaged. I heard a statistic. I'll get the numbers wrong, but you'll get it. Which was something like people come to work and something like 70 % are disengaged in their work.

40:25Simon Sinek:I mean, some extraordinarily high number of disengagement in American companies. If somebody gets yelled at, the disengagement number goes down to like 30%. I know. And if somebody is given one compliment about one skill or one talent, the disengagement number plummets to like 5 % or whatever it is, right? But what it shows is that when I get yelled at, at least you know I exist.

40:53Simon Sinek:I get it. At least you know, because everybody goes, what? Getting yelled at actually is better than ignoring somebody, right? Or just letting them get on with their work because at least you care that I'm alive and that I show up for work. I'm here. I'm breathing. I'm a person. You know my name, right? But I found that astonishing. I know. And the numbers, and again, I'm getting the exact numbers wrong, but the differentials are basically the same, which is it plummets. And we're not talking about like coaching programs and growth programs and finding one compliment of one skill or one gift makes somebody engaged and they're like, oh, this place is wonderful.

41:31Simon Sinek:I matter. I matter. It's simple. And it's such a simple thing. Look, I refuse to use the term soft skills, as you know. It's human skills. Right. And we want people to learn the hard skills and the human skills to be effective at work. Hard skills, the skills you need to do your job. Human skills, the skills you need to be a better human being. And WD-40 is one of the best examples in corporate America, as far as I'm concerned. And the fact that you are public, I think, makes it even better, right? Because people poo-poo it when you're not, you know? And that you had the courage to understand that you were public and that you had a responsibility to the shareholders, but not the only responsibility to the shareholders.

42:07Simon Sinek:and that you were playing the long game. I had a goal. I want to build an enduring company that I would be proud to pass on to others. Yeah. And I think we kind of nearly got that. And, you know, I was very aware of the shareholder needs. And it's interesting, when I first started... But third, not first. Right, well. Employee, customer. A plus B equals C. Right. They're C. But I remember when I first started going to Wall Street, I'd take my investor relations deck, and the first five pages were always about culture. And I could see the analysts sitting across from me, their eyes are rolling, kind of saying to me, get over that.

42:43Let's get to the numbers. It was very interesting in probably my last five years how engaged now they were becoming in a strong culture. In fact, we had one shareholder that took a huge stake in the company. And I asked why. They said it's the culture. And they never talked to me about quarter to quarter earnings. They said, okay, you've got to meet your goals over time, which we did. But one of my shareholders, I said to them once, I'm not smart enough to run a company in 90-day intervals. And this guy said, I'm glad you're not dumb enough to try. Well, I am the dean of dumb assery, as you know.

43:25But it's like that wasn't what it's all about. We're going to play the long game. And there's another thing that I found really interesting as we went through COVID. You know, it was in my last two years of being CEO, so it was an interesting time. But we got into COVID and we'd just done our employee opinion survey feedback. And we had 93 % employee engagement. 98 % of people said they loved to work at the company. 97 % said they respected their coach, who was their boss. So we get to January 2021, Simon. And you remember that time? The world was still topsy-turvy. There was no sign of, you know, a real vaccination.

44:04We were working hard to keep the tribe together. And I said to the folks, we need to go out and do a pulse test. Just see if we're still holding up. So we went and did a pulse test. And the numbers came back. And they were all pretty similar except for one that went up. And the one that went up was the answer to the question, I'm excited about my place in the company's future. Now, this is January 2021. and I said there's something wrong with that data it can't be right, go check it they went out and checked it, it was right I said how can anybody be excited about their place in the company future when we don't know what the world is going to be like go find out, we went and found out you know what they said, I feel safe that's what the tribe said they were watching their friends getting laid off They said, I feel safe.

45:00If I need to be anywhere right now, I need to be here. Simon, I got goosebumps then. I got goosebumps now when I think about it. I said to our leadership team, we did it. If during this time people can say that, you know what, this is the place we think it is. One of the proudest moments of my life. Say again the purpose of the company. Our purpose is to create positive, lasting memories, solving problems in factories, homes, and workshops around the world. We solve problems and we create opportunities. I love that.

45:29Simon Sinek:It's beautiful. The other part, which I also love, which is the opening part, which is to make moments that matter. And I think what's really important is I don't think people could argue. It's not a product-based purpose. No. And I think when companies think about purpose, they default to the product. Yes. You know, WD-40 is a lubricant that makes... Stop squeaks. It stops squeaks. It makes things move smoothly. It doesn't create moments that matter at all, right? Memories that matter is just not what WD-4E is doing. It is a statement of the kind of company you want to build. Right. And the attention that people put into the product, the marketing, the sales, you know, comes out of it.

46:09Simon Sinek:Right. And as you said, 80 % of the people are following, you know, a 70 % good strategy. In your case, 90-something percent are following a 70 % good strategy. And I think that's really important. And it's something that even in my work, I always struggle, which is people like, we believe in your work, we believe in your work. And they show me a beautiful purpose statement that's really about the product. And which is, again, not to sound like I'm, you know, kowtowing here. One of the reasons I love your company as an example is it's not glamorous. Because very often when there's a glamorous tech product, you know, an AI product, for example, and we come up with a purpose statement, it sounds glamorous because the product is glamorous.

46:44Simon Sinek:And so if you can take a non-glamorous product with what used to be a dumpy office, you know, and public, all the things that shouldn't work according to modern conventional wisdom. And it not only works, it works better than most companies. You know, your success is better than most. But I think one of the reasons you converted so many analysts is at some point you can't help it. And it's partially because you're such a great preacher for the movement. at some point they can't help but listen to you and relate to their own jobs which is i would like to work in a place like wd-40 my investment bank treats me like dirt yes i want this and at some point yes the the hardest of asses of analysts at some point has to say shit i want that yes then that happened that's that has to be that that has to be the the reason yeah i mean why not i mean so you're not preaching this is the right way to do it this is the right way to do it you're saying, this is how my people feel when they come to work, dot, dot, dot.

47:43Wouldn't you like to feel that way? Exactly. Exactly. Wouldn't you like to go home happy? And that's the other thing, you know, now, you know, I just spent 25, my 25 year apprenticeship in leadership. Now I'm putting it to work because I believe that business not only has a responsibility, but an opportunity to make a positive difference in the world. And I get so frustrated around this. And that's why I do what I do now is I can call BS, not because I'm a smart guy. That's why the title of my book is the title of my book. But it's because I believe that if you understand fundamentally the foundation that you need to put in and you take Simon Sinek's advice, culture equals values plus behavior and add a little consistency and you do it, you can build a place where people go to work and go home happy and you will build a better world.

48:34and we need it. We need it so much now. You know, I watch people get destroyed working in crappy cultures and it's not fair. It's not fair. So you can have a great culture and you can have a great company and you can feel good about it and you can send your people home happy.

48:53Simon Sinek:You and I both believe that loving work is a right and not a privilege. You know, that you go out with your friends and somebody says, I love my job and everybody else goes, oh, you're so lucky. As if they won a lottery. You and I both believe that the people who don't like going to work should be the exception rather than the rule. And it is something entitled to every single person who chooses to work for another, for every employee on the planet. They have the right, not the privilege, to enjoy going to work. It doesn't mean every day is easy. No. It doesn't mean every day is fun. No. I like to equate it to the difference between liking your children and loving your children.

49:27Simon Sinek:You love your children every single day of your life. You don't like your children every day. And it's the same. You don't have to like every day at work. Yes. But you do get to love every day at work. Yeah. And I had bad days. Yeah, of course. We all do. We all do. Days I do not want to come to work and I hate everybody around me. Well, yeah. I don't know if I got that far. But I don't want people to think that this was a better sweet roses. We went through some tough times. We went through the Great Recession. We went through managing through COVID. We went through oil going from$25 a barrel to$125 a barrel.

50:04We went through upheavals in A. We had all that. But all along the way, we kept our focus. We kept our values.

50:14Simon Sinek:The one thing that was consistent was the internal. Because the external, you can't control. Very often, you can only react. But the one thing that has the consistency, as you said, You can't have consistent numbers because you're not in total control of the numbers. If the raw materials skyrocket, it's going to affect your numbers. If there's a competitive threat and they're doing a good job in their marketing or having some promotion, it's going to affect your numbers. We don't actually have total control of the numbers. And I think it's funny when companies say, we will hit this number on this date at this time.

50:45Simon Sinek:How? How? There's got to be some fiddly word going on there. That's actually impossible. But the one thing that we can control every single day is the internal because that is actually under our control. I learn from you every time I talk to you. I am so grateful you came in. This was like therapy. Well, you know, you don't know how much I owe you because I've learned so much from you over time. Well, that's humbling. I really appreciate it. That's humbling. You know, it's great that you're out there doing what you do because we need it, Simon. We really do. You and I both believe in world peace, you know, and it sounds corny to say, and world peace is very simple, which is if people enjoy going to work, they're happier people, and happier people come home happier and they treat their kids better and they treat their spouse better.

51:30Simon Sinek:And when the kids feel good because mom or dad are happy and the spouse feels good because husband or wife is happy, they'll treat their friends and their colleagues and their neighbors better. And then those people are like, oh, how nice that they've treated me better. I'm going to treat people better. And before you know it, the ripple spread and you have real peace. It's good. And that's actually how human nature works. We actually are influenced by others. You know, if somebody yells at you or flips you off, we've all had it. Somebody cuts you off and flips you off in the car, you are pissed off for the next 20 minutes talking about them.

52:04Simon Sinek:You get out of the car and you start talking about the person who cut you off and flipped you off. Like, it does carry, you know? It's amazing how many nice rooms I've got at a married hotel when I've walked in at 11 o 'clock at night and said to the person behind the reception, I am so grateful you're here tonight. Thank you for waiting for me. oh by the way Mr. Ridge we have your upgrade tonight. Who's your free upgrade? But you know but sincerely I'm happy they're there no no I get it. We've dragged our butt across some nation and been on planes and whatever and you see people treating people badly and you wonder why they are getting treated badly and if a company wants to put pressure on employees to hit certain numbers I mean sure you can create some sort of incentive structure that's based solely on numbers and guess what people focus on the short-term personal gain that you've incentivized.

52:57And they'll do whatever they need to do to get it. And that usually means stepping on people, kicking people, get out of the way.

53:02Simon Sinek:Sometimes unethical and most extreme illegal. Yeah. And we see it all the time. And you show me any company that's acted very unethically and has exhibited ethical fading, almost every single time, I would show you a company with a broken culture and a misaligned incentive structure, almost every time. The other thing that's really interesting in the work that I'm doing now, when I look at compensation costs, compensation costs are always higher in organizations with crappy cultures because you can pay anybody to stay anywhere and be treated badly it's true everybody's got a price everybody's got a price but if you want to have a compensation structure that allows you to keep people in your organization in good and bad times culture plays hugely into it hugely even the most cynical should say you know maybe i should invest in this for totally selfish reasons that you know it'll help me weather difficult strong well unless you believe and then but then i think then you learn because you start to see it and enjoy it right you know i've seen that happen too which is people like oh i guess i'll do this and they they become converted just like you converted those analysts right you know it's this is david marquet's work which is oh yeah he's on the boat around turn the ship around which is he he talks about you know we get it wrong and how we change behavior, we think we have to explain to people why it matters and hope that their behavior changes.

54:20Simon Sinek:You know, so first they have to get it, then they'll change their behavior. And what he learned is you force the change in behavior and then people get it. And then people go, oh, which is kind of what you did at WD-40, which is like, let's all be coaches. Congratulations. I know you don't care, but I'm going to teach you how to be a coach. And I'm going to force you to be a coach. I'm going to incentivize you to be a coach. And now I like being a coach. Yeah. I'm not going to convince you the importance of being a coach. And then hopefully you'll sign up for the learning. Well, it then goes back to 97 % of the people respect their coach.

54:48Now, that was the word in the survey. If you were to change that question, it would be, do you respect your manager?

54:56Simon Sinek:Yeah. And I would suggest you would get 10 % of people who would say they do. Yeah. But because they're acting as a coach, you know, most people leave jobs because they hate their boss. Yeah. Well, because the boss is being a boss. A boss. He's being a soul-sucking leader, unfortunately. Yeah. Yeah. Bob Chapman talks about this. Our mutual friend, Bob Chapman, from Barry Waymiller, he talks about this, which is nobody comes to work to be managed. Nobody wants to be managed, but we all want to be led. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And we would all want to be coached, too. I love what he says. Anybody who comes to work every day is someone's precious husband, wife, sister, or brother, you know?

55:31And that's so true.

55:32Simon Sinek:And I think it's worth pointing out, all of these leaders that I get to write about and some of them I get to meet, you know um they weren't always this way i wasn't bob wasn't he ran it by the by the books he was he's a trained accountant people were line items on a spreadsheet do your job you get to stay on the spreadsheet don't do your job you get to leave the spreadsheet i mean that was yeah and he had a he had an epiphany he had a conversion yep um i was the same be brief be bright be gone yeah and that wasn't going to work yeah you know when i did my disc profile i hated what i was told i was so I had to move from a turbo D to an I which was you know I relationships really matter and it took me time yeah it took me time to really get comfortable with it and I think that goes right back to where we started which is if you want to be the leader you wish you had you actually start with you yeah it all starts with you it all starts with you Gary I love talking to you thank you so much for coming in such a treat um these are always frustrating conversations with me because I'd like to go for another four hours um but this is the best thank you thank you Simon It's been a great pleasure.