The Dating Advice Making Us Worse at Love with Relationship Expert Amy Chan

0:00Simon Sinek:When I look at my favorite couples, and I have a few of them, like the couples that I like, I want a relationship exactly like theirs. Like, my God. If I ask any of them, what's your secret? They all say the same thing, which is we do the work. You know? I think what you've explained when you talk about the friends that you have that have great relationships and the ups and downs and the working through it, you describe a great relationship. And I think a challenge that people have today is this mindset that they need to meet the perfect person first, and then it'll be great. We need to meet people who are good enough, and then we jump in with two feet.

0:39And then through going through the stuff, it's the hard stuff when you're there for each other, that it goes from good to great.

0:48Simon Sinek:Some of the dating advice that we follow might actually be making us worse at dating. Know your type, trust the spark, watch for red flags, never settle, protect your peace. And if someone isn't quite right, there are hundreds of other options waiting on an app. The problem is, the person who's great on a first date isn't necessarily great at a relationship. Instant chemistry isn't a good sign. A red flag might just be an imperfection. And keeping our options open can make us pretty terrible at actually choosing someone. That's why I wanted to talk to Amy Chan. For nearly two decades, she looks at dating through a sort of psychology and neuroscience lens.

1:29Simon Sinek:Why we're attracted to certain people and why relationships fall apart. She's also the founder of Renew Breakup Bootcamp and the author of Unsingle. Her work makes the case that finding love isn't just about finding the right person. It's about getting better at the skills love requires. It turns out dating takes practice. And so does staying in love. If you like what you hear, please remember to subscribe. This is a bit of optimism.

2:04Simon Sinek:This episode is proudly brought to you by SAP. Building trusting relationships with clients, it turns out, takes more than simply being an expert in your client's business. It actually is about empathy and being willing to step outside your own comfort zone. To learn more about SAP, the AI cloud ERP for businesses of all size, head to sap.com slash grow. I'm always fascinated about people's careers and how we stumble into them. And I think you and I are very similar that this was not our chosen path. No. I never imagined I'd be doing what I'm doing. I don't think you imagined that you'd be an old relationship expert.

2:39Simon Sinek:No. You didn't come from this world. No. You didn't study it. and for so many of us who stumble into these things, it's our personal experiences that sort of, you know, the solutions we find to the struggles that we're finding. And so you started not by talking about how to people, you started by not trying to help people have relationships, but how to end them, right? Tell me about what happened to you that unleashed or opened up an entirely new career, your accidental career. Yeah. So I was in a relationship in Vancouver and I thought I was living the dream. And back then living the dream meant you date to get married and then you have children.

3:19And then the plan I had with this guy who ran a business was I would write on the side for fun and we would have kids and everything was set. And then a series of things happened. I lost my job. I moved in with him and then he cheated on me with a former co-worker of mine and it wasn't just a relationship that fell apart so much of my identity and future was wrapped up in that relationship like I am the girlfriend I'm the wife I'm the mother I was yeah the perfect girlfriend training to be the perfect CEO's wife like that's what I thought was my dream and that shattered and I shattered I it was dark Like it was so hard.

4:03And as an achiever, like there was nothing I could do to get out of that pain.

4:07Simon Sinek:How long were you guys together? Two years. Okay. Yeah. So I just, I really struggled. And when I came out of that, which took quite a long time, like two and a half years, I was like, what happens to those people who don't have friends that will lend them a couch or know what books to read or have a therapist? So I was like, I have to create what didn't exist for me. So that's what I did. And what were the things that you found for you that helped you get out of this malaise for, I mean, two and a half years to be stuck in mourning is a long time for any kind of loss. For sure. In relationship or otherwise.

4:47Yeah. And look, the intensity of the pain, I think, lasted six months. That's when it's like constant rumination, revenge plotting. But, you know, after that, like...

4:58Simon Sinek:You didn't do anything, did you? I didn't, but I had some really good plans. I want to know one of them. I want to know one of them. Buying bed bugs off the black market and infiltrating her home and his home. Wow. Wild, right? It was bad. But looking back now, you can recognize that if you did that, you're the crazy one, right? Yeah. Thank God I didn't do it. Oh, my God.

5:31Simon Sinek:okay this i'm fully aware that you know this episode we're going to be giving advice this is not the advice part don't do it we will not be giving instructions on how to get on the dark web or any links for bed bugs yeah so i mean like and after a period of time like that intense pain went away but i was resentful and like i was trying to date but i had a closed heart and any person I could rally into my corner about what a victim I was and what a villain he was that would be the story and it really wasn't until like two and a half years later I'm having coffee with a friend catching him up and I'm like telling him the story I'm like what this guy did to me and he just stopped me and he's like so Amy does this story serve you and I'm like no he's like oh can you was there any time when he did love you and he was kind and I just thought about it I'm like yeah there was this and that and I just realized in that moment for the last two and a half years like all I could see was a dark because that's all I was looking for and I went home that day and I wrote him a letter of forgiveness of how I grew and it was like all those things I was doing that I was like this isn't helping it's like it all came together like glue and it just hit and I just didn't have any resentment for him after that.

6:53Simon Sinek:What was the impetus for you to, so you found tools that helped you, that started with your friend sort of telling you that it doesn't serve you, this story, and then set you on a journey of healing and moving forwards and looking out the front window. Were you starting to dispense sort of armchair advice to your friends that was working? Did your story help others? Like, how did you go from healing yourself to giving away what you had learned? Yeah, I looked at everything that I tried and what worked and what didn't. And from there, I was like, okay, these things really worked. I was a writer.

7:37I've been writing about relationships for 20 years. So I would write about it in blogs, in different columns. and then when I had this idea I brought the best experts in that specific thing so if it was cognitive behavioral therapy I found an expert in that somatic therapy and I just learned from them and I created the curriculum yeah and that's how I started it started with like seven people half

8:04Simon Sinek:of them were my friends I love that I mean that's my story too yeah no I started giving talks in people's living rooms with their friend yeah yeah that's the same same same the i found you on the internet i saw you on on instagram okay and i was like so this is the best thing about having a podcast right which is if i see somebody on instagram who i think is really really cool and i was like hmm i could this would help me you know i get to invite them on the podcast have a conversation yeah it's about you but really it's about me we were talking before we turn on the cameras about my relationships and I probably fit many of the patterns um I I do think that there is a lot of judgment we put on ourselves society puts on us an expectation for example there's a lot of pressure that whether it comes from our families ourselves society whatever it is you know to have to have get married have the kids white picket fence I mean the the fantasy you had right I'm writing a lot about friendship these days because I think that we our society has over emphasized the romantic relationship and under-emphasized the friendship, the platonic relationship.

9:13Simon Sinek:And I have romantic friendships. Now, that doesn't mean that they're sexual. They're not. But they're deeply intimate. Yep. And there's love and there's care. Neither of us want to date each other. But they're very fulfilling. And it's kind of like you looking for the darkness, which is if I ignore all the goodness that I have in my friendships, I will feel lonely that I'm not in a relationship. But if I appreciate the friendships, it takes the pressure off, which probably makes me more dateable anyway. If there's just a lack of, got to get into this. Do you think that dating seems to be more difficult these days?

9:52Simon Sinek:I know young people are later to have sex. Young people are, the tenure of relationship seems to be shorter. What is the reason? what you've met a lot of people of all ages yeah can you discern that it's a young person challenge or is it a current day challenge like why does dating feel more difficult than it used to and it's too easy to simply say the internet right yeah uh i think dating apps have changed the way that we meet people but they change the way we think about people and if you think about the act of just swiping a hundred times a day that's what i used to do just swipe swipe swipe and the hundred person person I would look at like it's just there's so much incoming shopping and we know through research that the things that you're being so picky on for a dating app height looks hair whatever it is if you met that person at a dinner party you wouldn't have that same judgment but we're meeting people in these ways and it's changing the way that we see people so we can even go on a date, have a good date.

10:56The second date we noticed they wore flip-flops. And suddenly if you remember all the stuff you're being fed on Instagram, what an ick. Or maybe they asked you for coffee and not a dinner. And that advice is being told to you that a coffee, what a waste of your time. So I think that we are walking around with barriers around our heart. We don't trust the media. We don't trust our government. We don't trust thy neighbor. We don't trust anyone. And so how can we connect and see another person as a human being with flaws and have empathy when they mess up when we are doing that?

11:31Simon Sinek:And can that be done with internet dating? I think it can be done, but I think that there are certain set of skills we need to learn for dating. And there are a separate set of skills you need to learn to sustain a relationship. And there are people who are great at dating. They're charismatic. They know what to say. they're adventurous but those people aren't necessarily good at being a partner i in my experience what i found fascinating about online dating and i've done it and i've had success with it yeah um i've also made a lot of friends um but what i found really interesting is pre you know if you if you meet somebody offline whether it's at a dinner party or a museum or wherever it is the initial connection, there's charm and there's chemistry and the sense of humor.

12:25Simon Sinek:And it's after you make the connection, you say to the person, can I have your number? And then you go on the first date. But there's already a connection before the first date. Right. In online dating, the only thing you have is a picture, maybe some stats. Yeah. But usually not even that. Yeah. I guess where I'm getting at is it seems like online dating we're dating things in our imagination we're holding people up to standards in our imagination right and we're getting advice as you said you know people are doing it for clicks and likes but they're dispensing nonsense very often right i'm i'm so curious if this is it's clearly not a new experience but is it exaggerated have you noticed i want to know the frustrations you hear from people why their relationships aren't working yeah i mean like i think in your case i i would imagine for you people are probably pedestaling you and they have an idea of who you are before they meet you so meeting people online um they're not they already have like almost like a fantasy version i always advise my clients don't look them up because you're either going to pedestal them or you're going to judge them yeah so i mean don't do that if you can um but i think there's a lot of other frustrations and i think they there's different ones I hear from women and I hear from men.

13:43So I feel that the women are saying a lot of the times the guys are talking too much. And I try to explain to them that sometimes a guy is talking a lot. Maybe it's because they're narcissistic, but sometimes it's because they're nervous and they're trying to impress you. And I really advise people if you felt a connection of five out of 10, if you had a good time you go again i don't think the first date is meant to be like are they going to be my future baby daddy like stop that it makes you future too much pressure yeah it's just a vibe check and that is why coffee is totally okay which is which is like that charming interaction at a

14:23Simon Sinek:museum before you go the first date yes you have to treat this like the charming interaction exactly that's very good and then if that was good go again and then it's not until the third date to about 20. I call it the evaluation stage where you get to know someone and you see like, is there an alignment of values? Like those sorts of things. But there are things that you can only tell through experiences with that person. So I do think it's a great idea to go on that weekend trip. See how they handle stress when something doesn't work out. Meet their friends. Before you jump in and be in your mind of like, I'm committed to this person because they're so great.

14:56Or not. Yeah, allow that time. And I think for some of the guys, they're finding that they don't know. Like, do I kiss them? Do I don't? Like, they don't know the rules of engagement anymore. And there's a lot of ghosting going around. So, yeah, the behaviors are a little off.

15:19Simon Sinek:Ghosting is, I mean, like, if you go on one date and it doesn't work out, fine. Fine. Fine. But, I mean, I hear about six-month relationships where somebody just ghosts. For sure. It's a lack of ability to deal with conflict. And it is a reaction that they probably have had since childhood. I think that even with friends, like looking at these little data points of people who avoid problems, when there's an uncomfortable feeling, instead of having a conversation, they avoid it. That is very telling of how they're going to behave when a bigger thing happens. Okay. Is there a cure for avoidance?

15:57Simon Sinek:Asking for a friend. Yes, there actually is. So the newer research on attachment. Notice how my body language is completely closing up now. So there's newer research on attachment and that at any given time, you're on a spectrum of anxiety and avoidance. So before the idea was like you're in a bucket and that's just where you are. Which when I evaluate myself, it's of course complete madness. I'm a spectrum of things. changes depends on the person depends on how much sleep I got right I mean all kinds of things I can walk in and out yeah all the time so if you date someone who has a very full life right and like their idea of love is 50 of my love I get from my friends 50 I get from my romantic relationships which seems to be more of the world you are in versus a codependent relationship which is 100 of my love I get from my romantic partner that won't do well for you that will make you run for the hills, but someone who's got their own life going on.

16:55And then they're, they're not constantly at you for more energy, more time that will probably make you, your nervous system ease in and want them a bit more. Right. And so like what you want to do is like people who tend to have higher avoidance, they're really good in the first three months, right? Cause there's, you're intoxicated. There's the threat of like someone getting too close isn't there yet. And usually it's around the three month mark that something shifts. And what will happen is you'll find an imperfection. There's something that will make this relationship not viable for the long term.

17:30Is any of that resonating for your friend?

17:32Simon Sinek:Yeah. Yeah. Based on the conversations we've had, some of that is true. Right. Not all of it. Right. But some of it is true for sure. The experiment for a friend who does that is to challenge yourself knowing this is what's going to happen. and it's a very natural reaction where your nervous system is freezing and wanting to run because it doesn't feel safe. And you want to communicate like, hey, I'm feeling a little bit flooded and just try to have that conversation with that secure person and stick it out. Stick it out for another three months. Tolerate the discomfort and you will move through it if you are with a partner who is secure enough to deal with it.

18:13Simon Sinek:I did something recently for the first time in my life. so because i i the adhd doesn't help right right because with adhd i'll fixate on something i'll hyper focus and i'll give i'll accidentally love bomb somebody which can feel great yeah you know and so i'm responsible for giving a ton of energy and so when they reciprocate i'm like pressure but i'm they're just reciprocating my energy or the opposite happens with adhd which is i meet them i can't wait to and then i forget that i forget to call them two weeks will go by and be like shit you know but but what i did something recently for the first time ever which was lots of high energy really like each other going super well she starts reciprocating with tons of love and energy and attention i'm like absolutely not this is not going to work i you know i was like we've only known each other a few weeks and you're trying to lock me down and make me your husband i'm not ready for this but what i did was can i literally she was like texting me every day and sending me pictures.

19:11Simon Sinek:She's on vacation and she's sending me everything she's doing. I'm like, I've known you a week. You know, it's like, I don't need all this, you know? And so I called her up. I said, I have avoidant tendencies. I said to her. I said, and so when you give me all this attention, it's pushing me away. I said, you're not doing anything wrong. Yeah. I said, I said, I understand that I gave you tons of attention. I understand that you're matching my attention and my reaction is nothing to do with you. I just want you to know it's happening. And I want you to know that I'm going through this because I have these avoidant tendencies.

19:47Simon Sinek:And I simply just took full accountability, didn't blame her behavior, didn't make her wrong, and just took total ownership over my reaction to what was happening. And the fact that I played a part in creating the environment that would make it feel safe for her to love bomb me back. And it was great. Yeah, yeah. And I think what you did is super helpful because what typically people do when they feel that pressure is they avoid. And it's a very natural human reaction for someone to spiral when someone was giving you attention and suddenly it's like one word answers or now it's two days to reply.

20:28And in their spiraling, their natural reaction is to go run and get it. Right. So I have a lot of clients who spiral and they're like, I'm going to write this message. I'm like, please, for the love of God, send that to me. Do not send any communications while you're spiraling. And I get them to get into a calm place before they do any sort of communication. But it is, I think, letting someone know, even if you have more anxious tendencies, to be like, hey, just giving you a heads up. This is kind of what triggers me. I'm not saying this is your responsibility, but I just want you to understand.

21:02It's information.

21:03Simon Sinek:Yeah. It's information. Yeah.

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21:46Simon Sinek:Whatever that means. Whatever that means. I'll trust you that that's very important. It's super important and very exciting. I remember I was with someone at the time who said, you need to get out of that organization just for a period of time and rotate into a customer success function. You'll learn a lot. you'll learn about the mechanics of the business, how important it is to balance both product engineering with the successful sales and delivery. I said the hardest thing that you'll have to decide is if you're successful is going back. At the time I thought they don't know what they're talking about.

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22:59Simon Sinek:situationships. Yeah. Very popular. Yeah. Right. Are they a new situation or do we just have a name for them for the first time? I think we have a name for them for the first time. People have been casually hooking up for a long time. However, I think right now it's being amplified because the apps make it super easy. There are no social consequences, right? Before, if you met through colleagues or a family, like there's social consequences if you don't behave properly. but now that's out the window um and i think that people are less committing they're not committing as much it's really really hard especially for the younger generation to commit and then feel the uncomfortable emotions and those hard conversations and move through it why just stop it and find another person yeah and that's what they're doing because it's easy right again if you can shop for a new it used to be hard to meet a new person there was some risk with breaking up because you have to start again and how am I going to meet somebody?

23:59Simon Sinek:But now the shopping is so easy. In fact, very often people will start before they've broken up, see what the options are. For sure. So how much of what we're talking about, and I see it in work, you're seeing it in relationships, how much of it is simply people being uncomfortable with discomfort? And how much of the advice that you're dispensing is really people learning how to be uncomfortable, how to move through discomfort, how to manage discomfort, how to communicate discomfort. Yeah. How much of it is just that? Yeah, I mean, those are basic relational skills. But, you know, I just saw some research on how in Gen Z, their top value is self-care.

24:40And if you look on the internet, everything is about like self-care and like, you know, like your mantras and your matcha. Anything meaningful in life, building a career, a business from scratch, a loving, intimate relationship that goes through ups and downs where you're each other's rock. There's not, there's moments where there's no self-care at all. And for a season, you just have to like suck it up and be committed to the thing that you have, like that you're trying to build. And I think that is a muscle. And I think that is lacking in a younger generation. And that really does worry me. And so when people are wanting to get in a relationship, I think you also have to understand like, what is their definition of commitment and love?