The Leadership Advice Nobody Follows (But Everyone Should) with Top Leadership Expert Don Yaeger

14:30Simon T. Bailey:He was no BS.

14:31Don Yaeger:Oh, no. And every day had to open in a mentorship relationship with him. I had to say, Coach, here's what you taught me two months ago when we were here together. Here's how I've used it in the interim, and here's how I'm better as a result. He needed to hear that it wasn't just me soaking up time with him. He needed to know that he was changing me.

14:52Simon T. Bailey:Because otherwise it's his time wasted, right? Exactly. Exactly.

14:55Don Yaeger:It was my job to come prepared, to let him know how I used what he taught me to be better. Better as a father, better as a husband, better as an employer, better as a speaker or whatever it is that I was out doing. He wanted me to come back to him with something I took and show how I became better as a result.

15:19Simon T. Bailey:How did he help you be a better husband?

15:20Don Yaeger:Coach Wooden, he's a great husband. He married the only woman he ever kissed. And sadly, she had passed away 25 years before he did, ultimately. And in that 25-year window, she had passed away on the 21st day of the month. And every month for 25 years, on the 21st day, if you were there to meet John Wooden, if you had an appointment with Coach Wooden, he didn't meet with you in person until he wrote a love letter to his wife. And he wrote these beautiful love letters. His penmanship was fantastic. And they would often be a page, maybe a page and a half long. And then he would seal the envelope, lick it, seal the envelope, and he would walk into her side of the bedroom where her bed was still made up, where she would have slept.

16:09Don Yaeger:And he would take last month's letter and put it in a box. and he would take this month's letter and lay it on the pillow. And, you know, one year, and I could probably tell you exactly when it was, it was November-ish of that year. I happened to be there on the 21st day. And so I had to sit at the dining room table as Coach sat there at the table and wrote this letter to his wife. And when he came back after putting it at her bed, he looked at me, and I said, Coach, you write these letters every month. You've been doing it for years. There are boxes of them. Is there anything there you wished you had said to her while she was alive?

16:53Don Yaeger:And he said, all of it. I said, excuse me? He goes, oh, yeah. He said it's one of the great weaknesses for most of us as people, our friends and our loved ones, the people that we are so engaged with. We're so busy telling everybody else how great they are. we forget to tell them how much we love them. And he said, I wished I had said these things when she was alive.

17:14Simon T. Bailey:He said more to his players than to his wife.

17:16Don Yaeger:Yeah. And he said, so these letters are my opportunity to get that chance. I was so taken by it that that year I went home. And for Christmas, I gave my wife a box with 52 letters in it. 52 letters where I expressed to her something I loved about her in each and every one of them. I had made a list and I knew what I wanted to write in each letter. And that Christmas, I mean, it didn't matter what I gave her, that was the gift, right? And it meant so much to her that the next Christmas I did it again. And I did it again. And just last Friday, she opened letter number 848. So however many years that is, is how many years it's been since I started doing it.

18:01Don Yaeger:And they're all different. So she takes the box and opens one a week. Right. She opens one a week. Yeah. And then she keeps all the letters. She loves to point them out to my daughter and say, by the way, I hope one day you marry somebody that will love you enough to write you a letter. And yeah, Coach Wood made me a better husband. I mean, there have been times in our relationship where I'm pretty sure the letter saved me. Because I may have done something that really made her mad and whatever it might be. And then ultimately she'd go, yeah, but this guy's written me 500 letters. Right? You know?

18:34Don Yaeger:And so, I mean, there's a little grace that I get, a little extra grace that probably plays into our marriage. It's been without question. It's John Wooden to change my life.

18:43Simon T. Bailey:A lot of podcasts do ads for products they don't care about. I'm doing an ad for a product I do care about, my own. When you listen to a bit of optimism, you're used to hearing me ask all the questions. But what if you have questions for my guest? Don Yeager is going to be live to answer your questions exclusively on Leaderful. Leaderful is my new app designed to help guide anyone who wants to be the confident, connected leader they need to be in this day and age. There's tons of inspiring content and you get direct access to some of the people you hear on this podcast. You can join Don on April 27th at 12 p.m.

19:24Simon T. Bailey:Eastern for a live Q &A on how to connect, influence, and inspire in the age of AI. Download the app or sign up at simonsynic.com to register for Don's event. And because I love you, my podcast listeners, you can use the code STORY30 when you become a member of Leaderful. I've changed my marriage. what have you learned about your wife in writing a letter a week because you're forced to sit down and think because i would imagine the first 10 or 15 or easy or easy yeah smile smile your sense of humor right yeah like yeah i got it but when you start getting up to like 50 60 70 you're like uh love how you cooked my eggs this morning well i haven't gone there it was a perfect scrambled eggs.

20:12Simon T. Bailey:No one can make scrambled eggs quite like you. I want to know what you've learned about her after over 800 letters.

20:19Don Yaeger:I will tell you what it's done for me. I know so many friends who I'll sit with at lunch. They'll tell me all the horrible things their wife does. She doesn't put the toilet paper over right. She doesn't fold the towels like I like them. And I don't think about those things. But I know men who do. I know men who think about, you know, gosh, the relationship they have. It's so troubled because she's an over the toilet paper instead of under the toilet paper kind of woman. And I know it sounds silly, but there are people out there who are looking for reasons to think less of someone else. I'm always looking for something.

21:01Don Yaeger:I write them all the time. I have a database on my computer of all the letters I've written, and I've got the next 75 or 80 already crafted, right, of what they're going to be next Christmas is already taken care of because I'm constantly looking for things I appreciate, things I love. And if you're looking for things you love in your friends, in your friendships, in your relationships, if you're looking for things you love, you see more of them.

21:27Simon T. Bailey:Oh, this is a great lesson. you know if you know you have the assignment to write the letter and you've got to write something good then as you said your job becomes find things i like that becomes your job right and this is you know bob chapman you know dear to my heart he would say of his employees don't catch people doing things wrong catching catch people doing things right right and it's the same thing if you make it your job to find where people are actually going the extra mile doing a little more you know doing good work even if it's a small thing sort of say thank you and you'll find you get more of it plus it's fun to catch people doing things right because the other becomes insidious right which is if you start looking for things wrong you're fine though you start looking for things wrong just happened to me this morning which is there's a couple things that happened at work that i've like reacted to and sent a note going hey this happened let's not let it happen again you know and then it happened again i was like hey this happened let's not let it happen again and so in a meeting today i said hey i don't like this i don't like reacting i don't want to react i've got to believe that it sucks to be on the other end of the other end of me reacting can you tell me what's going on that it's not working and because i don't want to be this and you don't want to be in the receiving end of it and they give me a very logical explanation as to why it happens turns out it was just a technological glitch you know not a human not human failing at

22:52Don Yaeger:all but where do we go in those moments who screwed this up right right and if we were in fact right give the grace and the opportunity and the open door for that conversation to occur and

23:03Simon T. Bailey:so the the lesson for me was of course i'm going to notice things that go wrong of course but by asking the question as opposed to coming in and because because i don't want to be the person who's always looking for things going wrong right that i just got an explanation that made sense and i I can be like, great. And now that I understand the technological glitch, I can see what went right and be like, that was good, as opposed to focusing on a thing that didn't work. It's such a, I mean, it's so overdone and so overused, you know, the idea of what your mindset is. But it really is the mindset of giving people the benefit of the doubt, being curious and looking for good.

23:39Don Yaeger:Coach Wooden said, you will often find what you're looking for. You always find what you're looking for. Right. And so I have just taken that lesson from him. I didn't want to look back one day and say, I wished I'd written those things while she was alive. I didn't want to have - You didn't want to have the same regret. I didn't want to have that same regret. And so taking that moment of regret became probably one of the greatest things that's happened to me in my relational life.

24:06Simon T. Bailey:Okay. I'm going to keep going because you're a font of this amazing stuff. great corporate leaders that you've had the opportunity to to either help them write their books or just help them you know maybe writing an article that somebody who was even better than you expected like yes they have their reputation but then you sit down with them you're like whoa this is not smoke and mirrors you know i'm very curious who you met was not just good as good as their

24:28Don Yaeger:reputation but even better than their reputation i will tell you the one that i'm just so fascinated with and have been working with for the last couple of years is ed bastion the ceo of delta Yeah, yeah. We just finished writing a book together. It'll come out later this year. Many people think, well, the customer's always right. That's not his philosophy. His philosophy is, I really want to understand my employees, and if they know they're cared for, they will care for the customer so the customer doesn't have to argue about what's right and what's wrong. And so he actually has what he calls a virtuous cycle.

25:00Don Yaeger:I'm going to go to work every day on making the opportunity for my employees to be successful as real as possible. I'm going to give them the assets they need. I'm going to give them the training they need. I'm going to give them the love that will make them feel appreciated. And if those things exist in the people that we're hiring and that we're putting out on the front line, they then will treat our customers with the same level of dignity and positivity and energy. And if the customers are feeling that same level, they will then buy our product, maybe at a premium price, which Delta is known for.

25:37Don Yaeger:and as a result, I now have the revenue to take care of our employees better. I love it, right? He does every year 10 % of corporate profit goes back to the employees in profit sharing. It's a cool thing, but he gives it to them on Valentine's Day. It's a love letter from the CEO, right? It's an opportunity to, on Valentine's Day, every employee at Delta knows, and for most of them, it's the equivalent of one twelfth of their income, right? They're making that back if the company's profitable. When it's not, it doesn't happen. But his ability to just stand up for employees and to believe that he is creating an environment for them that gives them their best chance for success is meaningful.

26:26Simon T. Bailey:Hard to do at scale, right? Wouldn't have five guys on the court at any one time. Right.

26:31Don Yaeger:Ed Bastian has 120 ,000.

26:32Simon T. Bailey:120 ,000. And, you know, there are many things standing in the way, you know, distributed workforce with hubs all over the world.

26:40Don Yaeger:There's TSA challenges. There's regulations. One thing that's interesting is that Delta is the only airline. They have a pilot's union because all pilots are represented by the same union. But no other aspect of their organization is unionized.

26:55Simon T. Bailey:And I remember they voted because Northwest was a union shop. And when they bought Northwest, I think I've got my math right. Yep. They had to vote to decertify. vote and the it was the delta employees that outnumbered the northwest employees right that actually voted no we're good they take care of us right we don't need it like we want it if the company screws us right obviously but we're good but think about that right in a highly unionized

27:17Don Yaeger:industry to be able to to constantly keep your employees believing their best days yeah are when they're in the company of leadership as opposed to in the company and and you know and just so

27:30Simon T. Bailey:people don't write angry letters and things. I understand that it's imperfect. I also understand that scale is difficult. It is an imperfect airline, but I like the attitude and I like the striving, which is the most important part.

27:42Don Yaeger:Yeah. We began working on the book several years ago, right after COVID. And one of the things that really fascinated me about COVID was he believed that in moments of crisis, your job as a leader is to over-communicate. So he would sit on a white chair, much like ours here, in the corner of his office. And every morning, he would live stream to all employees. And he would tell them what he knew. And he would tell them when he didn't know the answer. He would take questions for employees. But he over communicated in that moment. When things are tough, the easiest thing to do is to say, I'm so busy, I don't have time to go step out front.

28:18Don Yaeger:it's harder to make it a regular piece of your being to actually deliver to those people even messages that might not always be comfortable.

28:29Simon T. Bailey:Okay, so we've got a coach, we've got a CEO, history. You've written books about history as well.

28:34Don Yaeger:I have.

28:34Simon T. Bailey:Is there a historical leader that as you're doing the research, as you're writing the book, because I know this from writing books, which is, you know, you go down rabbit holes like crazy, some of them good, and some of them not so useful. The learning that I get from researching a book is better than the book because not everything goes in the book.

28:52Don Yaeger:Right, can't.

28:53Simon T. Bailey:It can't. And I know that I'm a better person because I researched and wrote the book, because I learned so much from other people and what other people are doing or other nuances. Was there a project that you worked on, a historical project that you worked on, that you are a different person having written, having learned those lessons and written a book?

29:12Don Yaeger:I would argue it's one I'm working on right now, on Teddy Roosevelt. and his son, Teddy Roosevelt Jr. Teddy Roosevelt had a father who actually paid someone to take his place in the Civil War so he didn't go out and potentially be injured, right? Which was not completely uncommon, but still, it was dishonorable in Teddy Roosevelt's opinion. Right, that he had a rich family that could pay for him not to go to war. Right, and so he, Teddy, said, you know what, I will be none of that. And as you know, I mean, you look at his historic efforts on the battlefield and otherwise, Teddy Roosevelt never ran from an opportunity to fight.

29:52Don Yaeger:Then he becomes president, and in the process of all that, he has a son, Teddy Roosevelt Jr., who is struggling mightily because he's thinking, how do I live up to a father? It's so extraordinary. How do I do that? And studying the dynamic of these two men, father and son, and how they is a great, I mean, I've got a 17-year-old son, and it's a great open door for my son and I to engage in conversation. We're going to Normandy this summer because Teddy Roosevelt Jr. is the only general officer who actually stormed the beaches of Normandy with his troops.

30:31Simon T. Bailey:So a star on his shoulder. Yeah, a star on his shoulder. And he's in the Higgins.

30:35Don Yaeger:And he went onto Omaha Beach and actually he was using a walking cane because he was a little older at that stage and had been injured.

30:42Simon T. Bailey:He must have believed that this was his last stand.

30:45Don Yaeger:Well, he died 36 days later, ironically, but the bottom line is that... But he didn't die on the beaches of Normandy. Right. He didn't die on the beaches of Normandy. He's recognized with the Presidential Medal of Freedom. So what's the parenting lesson then? Yeah. So the parenting lesson was that if I were to look at what I know of Teddy Roosevelt in my research so far, I don't think he saw the challenge that his son was feeling. I don't think he understood the stress his son felt.

31:16Simon T. Bailey:Simply by being Teddy Roosevelt's son is a stressful existence. And having the name.

31:20Don Yaeger:Yeah. And he was so caught up in what he had to do for history. Right? This is Teddy. Which one? Senior. Teddy. Senior. Yeah. So caught up in what he had to do for history. He in some ways missed that his very own son was literally in a funk for several years because he could not figure out, could I ever live up to what my father was?

31:43Simon T. Bailey:Was he a bad father, Teddy Roosevelt, Sr.?

31:45Don Yaeger:He was not a bad father.

31:46Simon T. Bailey:He was an absent father. Right, which is very common. Right. I just had lunch with a friend of mine just this weekend who, you know, CEO, big company. And we talked about, he's got, you know, three kids. And he's a good dad and loves his kids. And his kids love him. You know, they're not angry at him. But he admits, you know, he was so focused on the company and the career that he probably wasn't around as much as he would have liked to have been. I mean, he can rationalize it to some degree. His kids are hyper-independent. They're very sort of self-sufficient, partially because they had to be.

32:18Simon T. Bailey:He can rationalize that, good or bad, they turned out okay. I can see it in him. He's trying to make the effort to make up a little bit for lost time.

32:27Don Yaeger:And so this obviously occurred before the Teddy Roosevelt Project did. but understanding that problem, that challenge from most successful men who become fathers. 13 years ago, my wife and I sat down and we made a contract with each other that I would never be gone more than three nights in a calendar week. That may still sound like a lot to most people, but doing what we do, you could be gone all the time. If I were to accept all these opportunities, and so at the end of a third night when I'm on the road, my calendar goes red and nobody can add anything to it. It doesn't matter how great the opportunity might be because I needed to be able to say no to things in order for my children to know the level of priority that I was trying to present.

33:11Simon T. Bailey:Here's the thing I'm learning, right? Which is these communications happen in the time of peace, not in the time of anger, right? Because these conversations for most relationships happen.

33:21Don Yaeger:Now, I would love to tell you that this one happened in peace. It was actually during a window in which I was traveling too much. So I will be honest with you. I appreciate it. Well,

33:29Simon T. Bailey:then let's give the advice for those who are listening to this to make the conversation happen at a time of peace.

33:34Don Yaeger:It would be so much better. Which is, how many days is reasonable

33:38Simon T. Bailey:for me to be away? What does a business trip look like? What is the contract? And I love the fact that there's a contract. What's the agreement that we have for this family? Because nobody lies on the deathbed and wishes they went on another business trip. But people regret the amount of time that they're away from their kids. And I've heard people rationalize it up the wazoo. You know, I do this hard work for you to preserve the lifestyle that we live, blah, blah, blah. I was

34:00Don Yaeger:like, well, give me a little less lifestyle and a little more time together. I mean, you give me a little

34:04Simon T. Bailey:more lifestyle and a little more parent and I'll take it every day, you know. By the way, I think that answer is complete bullshit. You know, I think anybody who says that it's a rationalization, it's their own ego who likes the lifestyle or likes the money that they can rationalize to their family. I do all this for you, you know. That is complete nonsense. But you've never asked me if i even want the thing right it's like look i bought this sweater for you dad i hate sweaters you know exactly i don't wear sweaters but i bought it for you but i don't wear sweaters super nice yeah it's the most expensive sweater there is dad i don't wear sweaters yeah uh you know so i i think that's largely a rationalization and a pile of shit which by the way just because you know this is how my mind works it's the same bullshit rationalization when short-term shareholder uh focused leaders say but i'm doing this to help provide jobs i'm like right yeah not true not true because you're willing to lay people off at the drop of a hat right so if you cared so much about job creation why don't you work tooth and nail to preserve jobs in hard times so yeah that's it's all rationalization to make us feel good about the fact that our right to make our our misaligned question it's it's to rationalize our misaligned values that's exactly what it is But what I like about this is, okay, align your values.

35:13Simon T. Bailey:And I love the idea of making a contract. I love the idea of making an agreement. If I think of some of the great leaders in business too, they kind of make that promise. And you have to.

35:23Don Yaeger:You have to because everything shows up. I mean, everything is temporary, right, when it comes to our work and our success and this. There will be a day when none of that will be on anybody else's radar screen but ours. And then you've got to wonder what's left.

35:37Simon T. Bailey:Are you the John Wooden to somebody?

35:40Don Yaeger:So not every other month, but I do have a handful of people that I have intentionally agreed to mentor and spend time with. One of the challenges of telling that story of like, you know, having is that then suddenly you get it right. Is this suddenly get all these letters going, hey, you know what? I heard you tell the story and I'm looking for a mentor, too. And so I tried to set some standards that I expect of people if they want to be in a mentoring relationship with me.

36:06Simon T. Bailey:I had somebody walk up to me on the street and said some very nice things and likes my work, which I'm super grateful for. And then he says, this is my opportunity. I didn't think I'd ever get to meet you. Will you be my mentor? And this is my absolute honest opinion about mentorship, which is true mentorship. And let's define what mentor is, right? I think we misunderstand mentor. We think a mentor is somebody who has achieved something or done more than we have and we want to learn from them, which is only partially true. A mentor is somebody who makes time for you. I have a mentor by the name of Ron Bruder.

36:40Simon T. Bailey:And when I first met Ron, somebody introduced us. I was pretty young in my journey. And somebody said, you guys will get along. And I didn't know who Ron was. And in typical Simon fashion, didn't look it up before I met him. Somebody said I should meet him. What more do I need, right? And so I show up for Ron's office being like, ooh, who's this guy, right? I figure I'd learn, you know, over the conversation who he is. And I literally sit down and Ron's in a three-piece suit. and he's got a folder filled with stuff about me and i'm like i'm a goner right yeah and we had such a lovely time and he was so charming and so wonderful this is because you were a good storyteller yeah exactly right a good storyteller and he was just charming and lovely and i remember a few weeks went by and like i had question or something that was difficult that i didn't know the answer and i knew you know based on my meeting with ron i've been like i bet he has a point of you.

37:32Simon T. Bailey:So I called his office and said, is he in? And he took my call. And a few weeks later, something else came up. And I thought, I wonder what Ron would think about this. And I called his office and he took my call. And then it became lunch. And then it became, you know, why don't you come to my house this weekend and hang out? And he became a dear mentor and a dear friend. And I remember I used the M word for the first time and I was getting ready to leave. And I was saying my goodbyes and I put my arm around him as it was sideways as I was getting ready to go. And I'm like, you know, Ron, I'm so glad you're my mentor.

38:06Simon T. Bailey:And he said something I didn't expect. He said, and I'm so glad you're mine. It never occurred to me that Ron was learning as much from me, from the questions I asked, or from a completely different perspective, just because I'm considerably younger than he is, that he derived joy and learning from my time with him as well. And I realized that great mentor relationships aren't this sort of hierarchical mentor, a mentee that I am wise and I bestow my, you know, my wisdom upon thee. That's not what it is. That the mentor shows up with equal excitement to learn and to teach. And that's why it's more of a mentor-mentor relationship, though the lessons are different.

38:45Don Yaeger:Right. So it's interesting you have that relationship with Ron, because that was exactly what Coach Wooden was. And that's exactly what he said to me. Yeah. He said, you know what? I derive energy. I take energy from you coming back and telling me what you did. I take energy from the, sometimes you're asking me questions. You're asking me to go back in my, in my memory and think about things I haven't thought about in years. And by doing that, I leave these sessions energized. And this is a 90 year old guy, right? And I love that because he did, he saw the same thing. And that's what I said to

39:17Simon T. Bailey:this kid. I said to this kid, I said to him, I'm flattered. I'm grateful, but you couldn't go up to a stranger on the street and say, will you be my friend? It doesn't work that way. Friendships evolve. You can't just choose. I said, it's the same with a mentor relationship. You can't just go up to a stranger and say, will you be my mentor? It doesn't work that way. I don't know you. I said, I'm sure you're lovely. But that's not how it works. And all the mentor relationships that I have evolved. And I got to know someone. And they became my mentor. I never said on day one, will you be? Because it sets up an expectation of a sort of a transactional relationship.

39:52Simon T. Bailey:And I think the way I define mentor is a mentor always makes time for you. They always have time for you. No matter how busy they are, they have time for you. Like a friend. And mentorships, like friendships, evolve. Now, that's different than a mentorship program. And though I know the words are the same, it's not quite the same thing. Yeah, I struggle with those. And a mentor relationship is not a champion. They have no control over your career. They can't put in a good word for your promotion. That's a champion. You should have champions as well. And occasionally those things overlap. But the best mentors are not even in your company.

40:24Simon T. Bailey:They may not even be in your industry. the only thing they care about is you. I think everybody has to have a mentor. And basically, it's these friends that the friendship kind of takes on a bit more of a parental caring dynamic, not just a let's go out and have a good time and share a meal. They take on more of a I care about you dynamic.

40:50Don Yaeger:The relationship with Coach Wooden for me, I mentioned it was 12 years long. And About the 10th year, Coach looked at me and he said, Don, you've written all these books. You've written books on this and that. But why have you never asked me to write a book? And I went, because I don't want to pollute our relationship. I love what I get the chance to learn. I'm not here to profit from you. And he goes, but what if we wrote a book on mentorship? And so we did a book together that came out on his 99th birthday. Pretty cool. The first half of the book were seven people who mentored him. But what was fascinating to me was he considered two of his mentors, Mother Teresa and Abraham Lincoln, two people he'd never met.

41:29Don Yaeger:But he studied them so completely. He believed that mentorship doesn't mean we have to sit at a table. I can actually grow by studying you. By studying you. Right. And if I can learn what you've been through and I can read what you've been through, I can consider you. I can take lessons from you.

41:46Simon T. Bailey:An active part of my growth. I love that. I have a friend who's obsessed with Marshall. you know and like if you go to his house there's like books about marshall everywhere he's read all of them you know there's quote books and just like from stupid little quote books to like sophisticated biographies he's obsessed yeah and you definitely get the sense that that marshall is mentoring him yeah he thinks as he's going through challenges what would marshall do right would marshall think right yeah yeah not because he's going to copy it but he wants to understand the perspectives and the point of view yeah this is so interesting i wonder if young people i can ask my, I can ask the crew.

42:18Simon T. Bailey:Do you have a mentor? No. Do you have a mentor? Kind of, sort of? In your definition, yeah. You do, but you don't.

42:26Don Yaeger:You've never asked Simon if he would be your mentor?

42:29Simon T. Bailey:What's up with that? Yeah, I know.

42:31Don Yaeger:Now you know what his answer is going to be.

42:32Simon T. Bailey:So on our set, we've got young people on the team. I wonder if it's a generational, like you and I are, you know, old timers here. Like, do young people, do your friends have what we would call mentors, which is people who've gone through the trenches, know a little more, not peers, that make time for you and your friends to just guide you and help you along the way. Different than a parent, but I think the dynamic is like a parent. My mentors were like the two that I'm thinking of, Ron Bruder and Bob Chapman. I would say not long-term. I would say I had mentors in stints, but not anyone I would like.

43:11Don Yaeger:And by the way, that's not bad. I actually think there are mentors who are meant to be part of your life for a season, not for a lifetime. And there's nothing bad with having mentors for a season. Now, I still think there's deep value in finding that Ron, finding that coach, whatever it is, somebody who is long-term invested in you. But a mentor for a season is not a bad thing. Do you have a mentor?

43:38Simon T. Bailey:Industry-specific, absolutely. I think that folks where that is more part, like if that is something that exists within their industry as well. So what they're saying is in industry specific, yes, that exists. I'm thinking politics. I'm thinking corporate. But I'm curious about your friends because you don't have one. Yeah, no, those are my friends. Those pathways, yes. But I would say for folks like me who come up in like maybe the more typical gig economy. Right. Oh, of course. Of course. There's so much more gig economy. Right. They're not thinking about like... I'm meeting young people more and more now who are taking very untraditional paths of career where they're sort of fashioning out their own careers that they do a little bit of this, a little bit of that.

44:25Simon T. Bailey:Some of them may have a quote unquote full-time job, but everybody's got a side hustle. It's a thing now.

44:32Don Yaeger:You and I are like, our life is a side hustle. I guess our life is... See, that's the thing.

44:35Simon T. Bailey:But I think that's really interesting, which is when you have so many balls that you're juggling in this new young person's economy. And let's be honest, I think there's a large amount of distrust of jobs because they've seen their friends, their parents, get laid off. You know, it's not a meritocracy, nothing personal. We didn't hit our profit goals. You're out. That I think they're quite right to not trust the company or rely on the company, that now they're sort of fashioning their own independent paths. But the question is, does that make mentorship more difficult to find because you got 15 balls in the air right that's i think it i think it is because you're also trying to figure out who do i go turn to right

45:16Don Yaeger:what what am i looking to learn economy everybody's a little bit of a competitor right what do i want to learn from somebody who would i naturally go hoping to learn from we see

45:27Simon T. Bailey:it exploited right we see that exploited online where there's these sort of like self-appointed gurus.

45:31Don Yaeger:Oh, now life coaches, right? I've got a certificate in life coaching. I can be your mentor.

45:36Simon T. Bailey:And some of those are good coaches and they get coaching certificates, but I know what you're going down. But I'm talking about the online content creators where they always have something to sell you at the end of their advice. Always have some program to sell you that's high price. And what they're selling is the vision of being taken care of. It's a little bit like a multi-level marketing scheme, but without the garage full of vitamins. But there is sort of like the people who are profiting are the people at the top selling you quote unquote mentorship but they're playing on i think a lot of insecurities and desires i wish i had this thing and we're and again it violates my definition because we're relying on a stranger whose program is available to me but they're not available to me and that's not a mentor that's just somebody who gives nice advice right go ahead and consume people's advice online i'm not against that they

46:23Don Yaeger:don't give nice advice they sell nice they sell nice advice right and that's a that's an important That's also an important distinction.

46:29Simon T. Bailey:And it's okay to have that in a cadre of my experiences and how I'm getting information. But it shouldn't be the only one. Right. Like, I don't have a problem with people selling advice, but that's not your mentor. Right.

46:42Don Yaeger:No, don't.

46:43Simon T. Bailey:That's just a program you took that helped you learn some skill. Right. And if it worked, it worked. And if it didn't, it didn't. But let's not mistake. That for mentorship. That's not a mentorship, anything.

46:51Don Yaeger:No, you're right.

46:52Simon T. Bailey:Mentorship is generous.

46:54Don Yaeger:Yes.

46:54Simon T. Bailey:Mentorship is a give. It's a servant leadership. conception to be a mentor.

47:00Don Yaeger:Yes. I mean, it's non-transactional, right? There is nothing there. I'm not going to gain something by being your mentor.

47:08Simon T. Bailey:And there was never anything asked of me. And by the way, I never asked anything of them.

47:10Don Yaeger:Right.

47:11Simon T. Bailey:And no more than we would ask of our friends.

47:14Don Yaeger:Right. Yeah, no, it's been interesting. Coach Wooden has passed. Dale Brown, another basketball coach who's been a great mentor. I had great relationships with some of the people I've written books with who have actually stepped in and become somewhat mentor-like for me. It's fascinating to try to think about. But each one brings something different to me. And I frankly bring a little something different to them.

47:37Simon T. Bailey:And as we get older, I think it's important for us to be mentors. Right. Because as we've just said, to have those younger people in your life, they will, just like you and Wooden and just like me and Ron and me and Bob, like it's energizing for them. And they were always grateful to me which sort of never made sense to me you know and i think as you get older and maybe you're sort of mentored out of the game like because everybody older than you and more experienced than you is like gone dead but it's interesting but i think you know what coach

48:06Don Yaeger:was 99 and i asked him like do you have mentors absolutely he had mother theresa well but he also had but he considered you know me a mentor that's what i'm saying right so make sure you mentor

48:17Simon T. Bailey:people but that mentor mentor relationship regardless of age right you learn something different. It keeps you young and fresh.

48:23Don Yaeger:Yeah, he argued your job every day is to mentor someone and be mentored by someone every day. And he made that his responsibility. And he believed he did it from the time he was a high school basketball coach to the time he died at 99 and a half.

48:37Simon T. Bailey:Look, you've written seminal books and articles about Wooden. Other people have written about it, though, you know, not as good as your work. And other coaches like Wooden. You know, these winning most coaches, none of them are obsessed with winning. You know, there's the same thread, the same irony. The best CEOs with some of the highest performance like Herb Keller from Southwest Airlines, Jim Senegal from Costco, none of these guys were obsessed with the outcomes, with the numbers. They were all obsessed with the teams and the people, all of them, every single one of them. And yet they outperformed their competition over the course of time.

49:08With so much written, why are more people not doing it?

49:12Simon T. Bailey:Why are these leaders and these companies always the exceptions rather than the rules? Right.

49:16Don Yaeger:No, I ask that question all the time. I think about coaching, especially because of my relationship in sports. We know that that is, that there's something to that, right? That the coaches who are invested in development, and am I going to make you better? Are we going to be in relationship for a lifetime? Or is this transactional? Is this going to end at the end of the season? The coaches who say, I want to be in your life for a lifetime, are the ones that win consistently, year in and year out. And yet, and yet, not everybody does it. Why? It makes no sense to me. It's a lot more work.

49:49Simon T. Bailey:It is more work. It is also, so there's a story that David Marquet tells. He was a Navy captain. And he talks about how on his submarine, there was one kid who's like the best at parking the submarine when they're in port. So every time they came to port, whether he was on shift or not, he parked the submarine. Why? Because he's the best submarine parker in the whole crew. And it occurred to Marquet at one point, like, what if he's sick? Right. What if he's like on leave? Like who's going to park the sub? So he took somebody else to park the sub and it turns out he didn't do a good job. So I think when we do - I wonder what that looks like.

50:25Simon T. Bailey:Right. I think when it's like, do you ever scrape your wheels when you park? On a curb? It's like that. It's like that. Only it's 300 feet long. Much more expensive to fix. Sharpie won't fix that one. I think this is what happens, which is in leaders in business, we're like, oh, I'm going to get the young kid a chance i'm gonna give the new kid a chance i'm gonna give the kid who's not the best on the team the chance and they completely screwed up and you're like never doing that again and this is where i respect marquet which is the kid sucked at it and instead of taking him off the controls he had him do it again and again and again and again and turns out he was really good at parking the sub now he's got two guys who are great at parking right so then he gets a third you know and the idea of building a bench.

51:13Simon T. Bailey:And I think to your point, I think a lot of leaders are so driven by short-term results and short-term gains that they feel like they don't have the time to foster the talent or foster the skills in others. Right. And so they just don't, which works for the short term until that person quits, leaves, gets sick, or the technology changes or the culture changes, whatever changes, and you just don't have a bench. So you've got a team that can win a season. but you don't have a team that can win that can win 10 in 12 years. In 12 years, right.

51:45Don Yaeger:No, it's such a great point but part of it is also what are the expectations that are thrown on people? Well, I mean, Wall Street boards are like

51:53Simon T. Bailey:you better get me my bonus this year. Nobody says you better build the greatest company that ever existed over the course of the next 10 years. And it goes exactly to what we were saying before which is if you catch people doing things right if your goal is to drive this year you're going to look for all the opportunities to drive this year even though you know that there's a long-term liability that comes with it right but if your goal is to build something that's built to last then you will yeah we just had it this morning i had a team meeting and we totally have a self-inflicted wound like we completely screwed something up it's all of our fault you know we succeed together we fail together right and it was totally a self-inflicted wound and like we're because the numbers dropped there's a bit of a panic.

52:36Simon T. Bailey:We had to sort of like remind each other's like, hold on, hold on. Do you ever, do you ever listen to air traffic control when there's an emergency on a plane? Right. The pilots are calm, right? Because they know that panic, you make bad decisions. It's still, it's still dangerous. It's still bad, but stay calm, go through the checklist, go through the priority list and go do your work and like do a good job, but do it calmly. And sort of like, we just reminded ourselves, like, We still have a fire to put out, but let's just do it calmly.

53:05Don Yaeger:And let's recognize that if we do it calmly, we're going to be playing this game for years.

53:10Simon T. Bailey:And I think the only way you maintain calm like that is with an infinite mindset, because you recognize that this month is not the last month. It's not even the second to last month. It's just a month.

53:20Don Yaeger:Unfortunately, as you said, for so many places, Wall Street, boards, whatever it is, boosters, if you're in sports, presidents of universities, athletic directors, saying, well, the guy down the street can win every year. Why can't you win every year? We give you resources. I'll tell you a real life story

53:36Simon T. Bailey:that just captures how when it goes sideways. A bunch of years ago, IBM missed its quarter, right? And the CEO of IBM at the time made a video message to the whole company, basically chastising the sales organization for completely screwing up the numbers this quarter, right? And like, I saw the video. It was an internal video, but it got leaked, of course. The Wall Street Journal reported it. And I talked to people who worked at IBM. I said, hey, I saw the video. And they were literally like, whew, glad I'm not in sales because you're publicly humiliated by your CEO to the rest of your company because they screwed up the numbers.

54:12Simon T. Bailey:Right? If you pulled the lens back a little bit, it was the first quarter that they'd missed in something like 137 successful quarters. They missed one quarter. And the CEO's response was to yell and chastise and humiliate the sales team. How'd that work out? And if memory serves, not well. Like the company then sort of didn't do well for a while because now everybody's in a panic mode.

54:39Don Yaeger:And my guess is the CEO also paid the price at some point. But you know, the problem is like,

54:45Simon T. Bailey:at no point did everybody say, hey, I don't think that was the right response. You shouldn't have done that. Like, let's like, where's, again, it's short-termism, those are the pressures. Don, I could talk to you all day. We could do this. Forever. We should just start our own podcast. You're one of my favorite storytellers. What's one thing someone can apply today to be a better storyteller?

55:06Don Yaeger:Biggest mistake most people make in storytelling is they don't know enough about who they're telling their story to. They don't invest in taking an opportunity like you with your mentor, Ron. You showed up and thought it would be cool. You didn't do the research. If you take time to just do a little bit of work about who it is that you're getting a a chance to spend time with who it is that you're going to get a chance to impact with a story it will allow you to to make a slightly different tweak to the story that might allow it to be heard differently might allow you to have greater impact know your audience know your audience right

55:42Simon T. Bailey:those because you're not writing for yourself you're writing for you're writing a story for someone correct that's brilliant and when people that's so good yeah when people screw up narratives it's because they're writing for themselves they don't know who they're writing for right it's a me story. If it's a you story,

55:57Don Yaeger:it's a different story. Great advice. John Yeager, what a treat. Simon Sinek, what a treat. I'm honored just to be here. So good.

56:07Simon T. Bailey:A Bit of Optimism is a production of The Optimism Company. Lovingly produced by our team, Lindsay Garbenius, Phoebe Bradford, and Devin Johnson. Subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts, and if you want even more cool stuff, visit simonsinek.com. Thanks for listening. Take care of yourself. Take care of each other.