Matt Lindland - Exclusive Interview

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0:20Welcome to A Book With Legs podcast. We put together some extra bonus content from our discussion from Cage Kings by Michael Thompson, episode 218, where he taught us the history of the UFC, the media around it, and the fighters' pains and successes. We're going to call this episode 218.2. It's really the first time we've done this. To give you a little background for the guests we're having on today, last spring I was at church for our Wednesday night men's group that we call Real Men. Our guest for this discussion spoke at that. And after hearing his story and reading Cage Kings, and just so you know, Matt, in fairness, I wasn't going to go that night to church.

0:53My wife told me I had to. I heard your story and I read Cage Kings and I said, you know what, self, we needed to have Matt on a book with legs. So I would love to welcome Matt, the lawyer, Lin-Lin, to join us to talk about his path to the Olympics, to UFC, to the Supreme Court. And we also talk about what you're doing now and what that was like during the pandemic. So, Matt, glad you could be here with me. Cole, thanks for having me. And the law, but the lawyers. Oh, yeah. Sorry. The law. Sorry. My bad. And we'll talk about that because the law is you are you are definitely a man of the law. So to make sure our tribe is familiar with you, I'm just going to go a little bit around your background.

1:34Not too much because I don't want to steal any of the thunder of our conversation. But to give our audience a background, Matt won a national title while Clackamas Community College before attending the University of Nebraska, where he went 33-1 his senior year and won the Big 8 title. Matt wrestled freestyle and Greco-Roman before focusing on Greco-Roman for the 2000 Summer Olympics, where he won the silver medal. His first UFC match was UFC 29. matt has also coached the u.s national wrestling team at the 2016 rio olympics and the 2020 tokyo olympics so matt first off you know i had friends that wrestled in high school and whatnot you know there's a particular kind of young man that loves wrestling and so i'd love to hear like what got you into wrestling what was what was that thing that just suddenly made you say this is this is my game oh that's a it's a great story because uh i was never involved i grew up as a pretty rural boy, riding ponies and jumping horses.

2:32I was an equestrian athlete and I was pretty accomplished in the sport until my mother told me that we could no longer afford for me to ride horses and continue on that path. And you've got athletes like Springsteen's daughter that are well-funded, that are able to participate in those kind of sports. So I had taken a couple wrestling classes at my junior high, seventh and eighth grade year, just for like six weeks and kind of didn't really think about it until I got into high school and it was required in our gym class for freshman boys. And the coach convinced me that I was really good and I had a lot of potential.

3:13And I'm sure he was just trying to get me to come out for participation numbers. But that was really the start of my wrestling career. And then after the high school season, I did something called freestyle and Greco-Roman, which are the two international styles that competed in the Olympic Games. And I went 0-8 in that first weekend of doing international style of wrestling. And what I found out was that I needed to get to a club and surround myself with quality athletes and good coaches. and I was blessed enough to wind up in a wrestling club that in 1985 featured the coach from the 1984 Olympic team, Pavel Kotsen.

3:59And Pavel was a former Soviet coach and moved over to the United States to coach the U.S. team in the 84 Olympic Games. So you get going with him and again, you know, you hadn't had any success your first go at it without, you know, good coaching. Was it high school wrestling where this really got going for you and you started to see a lot of success? I wouldn't say I was really successful in high school or even post high school. I was not recruited to any major colleges. So I ended up going to a community college that was in my hometown, Clackamas Community College. I ended up coaching there and helping the team out as well later in my career.

4:44But we had a pretty successful program at Calacomis Community College, but nothing outstanding. I did win a national title, and then I was recruited to multiple Division I programs. And ultimately, I decided to choose the University of Nebraska. So as I think about it, to this day, what was the Big 8, now the Big 12. And if God knows how college football is going to change, it might be the Big 28 someday. But, you know, the Big 12 has really been a powerhouse wrestling conference. So to go to the University of Nebraska, that's not just any Division I program. That's the best conference in America to go wrestling.

5:28Yeah, that was, if I'm going to do this, I was going to, you know, definitely try to get into the best program I could, you know, surround myself with the best competition. You know, put myself right in the heart of, you know, wrestling country, you know, where people do this sport. Sure. So around that time, you run into Randy Couture. Yeah, I met Randy my junior year. It was my first year at the University of Nebraska. And he was an athlete at Oklahoma State who was one of our rivals. But, you know, we got to know each other then. And then we competed on national teams together and trained together for years.

6:11So then, you know, you're in the wrestling community. You're in the wrestling world. You're at a strong school. What was the first time, you know, as you read Cage Kings, I read Cage Kings. You know, my first introduction to MMA was 2006. I went to go see my brother at the University of New Mexico. And he said, hey, there's a UFC fight on tonight. Let's go to Buffalo Wild Wings. and I had never been, you know, seeing a UFC fight. So I thought, sure, let's go. And we get there and in Albuquerque, I mean, in 06, this is like the biggest game in town because in Albuquerque, like there's no pro sports teams, you know, like most major cities.

6:45And we get there and it's like, this is fight night. You know, this is a major social event where we were at. And so that was my introduction. What was the first time you saw it live? Yeah, I'm sure it was pretty big in Albuquerque. You got Jackson's MMA and a lot of top-ranking athletes. Yeah, a lot of houses there. Came out of that program. Well, I grew up watching boxing and fight sports with my mom. And then when I got to college, I had a rowdy bunch of teammates that always loved to watch Tyson fight in that era. And this fight came on in 93, and we were just super psyched to watch this fight and see what this was about.

7:25And, I mean, I was intrigued from the first time I saw it. But did you know then that you're like, hey, I'm going to do that? Like, that's where I'm going? Or was that just like, wow, that was really cool? What was the feeling you had? Because obviously that was kind of shaping your path, but did you know it at the time? No, I thought, wow, that's really cool. I thought it was a one-off event for sure. You know, like I didn't think this was something you could do as a post-college career for sure. And I absolutely had Olympic aspirations. I had set some goals to compete in the Olympic Games and, you know, represent my country in the Olympics.

8:06And so I hadn't really thought too much about it at that point other than, wow, this is really interesting, until I started seeing guys like Randy Couture and other teammates of mine start to fight in these events. Sure. So you get out of Nebraska in 93, and then you talk about going to the Olympics, which you did do. but you know i butchered your name you being the law there's a reason why they call you the law and that was a process for you so could you kind of teach us about walk us from 93 getting out of college to eventually being in the olympics in 2000 yeah i mean that's a that's a very long story but i'll try to condense it for you um 93 um i finished i finished at the university of nebraska and i think you read my record uh what was it like 34 and one or something 33 33-1.

8:57Yeah, you're a senior year. 33-1. And we were done at Nebraska, my wife and I and our youngest son, or my oldest son. My daughter wasn't born at this time. So we moved back to our home in Oregon. But the training opportunities in Oregon were not what they were when there was other athletes that were pursuing Olympic aspirations in wrestling. Sure. Ultimately, I got invited by Mike Houck, who was the national team coach, to move to Colorado Springs and be a part of the inaugural resident athlete program in Colorado Springs. Okay. And my daughter was about two weeks from being delivered. And so I told Mike, as soon as my daughter's two weeks old, we'll move out there.

9:47Okay. So about a month later, I was in Colorado Springs training there at the Olympic Training Center. But it's a pretty hard path because you've got to fund all your living expenses. And now I had two children and a wife. So my part-time job was driving the Zamboni after training all day until about midnight or 2 in the morning. Yeah. It was a pretty rough path. And during that same time, we had a coaching staff change. and we went from a transformational coach to a more of a transactional coach and it just wasn't the fit for me as it was for the same guy for the guy that recruited me out there Mike Howick and then I had a different coach it was just a different feel and so I ultimately got a job offer to coach the University of Nebraska and my coaches out there said they were going to help me prepare for the Olympic Games.

10:47And I had a really generous club that would sponsor training partners to come train with me or send me to Europe for training opportunities and competition. That was the Sunkist Kids Wrestling Club. And so for the next, you know, after I missed making the 96 Olympic team that was in Atlanta, I went as an alternate for the Olympic Games and was even more inspired to make a team in 2000. And I made every team the world championship teams from 97, 98, 99, all those years. And in 99, I was practically on the podium until I busted my elbow out and tore a pronator's teres muscle and had to get that repaired, thinking that this was probably the worst timing ever.

11:37It was a year before the Olympic Games. and the qualifying tournaments for the Olympics. So I needed to go qualify the weight class for the Olympic Games. And I had this torn muscle in my arm that was just recently repaired. But ultimately, I ended up going to Cali, Colombia, and beat Nestor Almanza, who was a world champion, because the year before I'd beat the other Cuban at that weight class who ended up being a two-time Olympic champion, Fulberto Esqui, won the games in 96, and he ultimately went down to weight class because I'd beaten him a couple times prior to that. So I think he thought his best chance to qualify was at 68 kilos, and I ended up wrestling another guy that was a world champion to qualify that weight class.

12:30And I made the team, and then I went to the Olympic trials thinking, you know, I'm wrestling a guy that I've beaten 13 times in a row. I should be able to perform pretty good to make the team. It was just a formality, really. And so the matches were completely misjudged, and it just felt really eerie and odd. And then I followed the procedure set up by the organizing committee, which was USA Wrestling at the time, and they refused to follow their own rules, which I filed a protest to review the film, and they said that they refused to review the film, so they denied me due process. And there was nowhere in the rules that they could deny me due process.

13:18So ultimately I took the case to the Crack Roman Support Committee, which they started pulling members off the support committee. And you mentioned Randy Couture's name. He was actually one of the members on the support committee that got removed. and the reasoning for removing members was because they have bias. Well, as humans, we all have bias, and that's why you have committees. That's why you have committees and multiple people. So, again, I was denied due process, and then ultimately I went to an arbitrator, and it was final and binding, and I re-wrestled the match and beat the athlete 9-0 in the re-wrestle match, and I was not put on the Olympic team because they wanted to re-arbitrate the case and get a different ruling.

14:06Effectively, buying off time so that you would run out of time. That was essentially what it was. So I ended up getting an injunction from the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals that kind of forced USA Wrestling's hand in the Olympic Committee to name me to the Olympic team. And ultimately, I went to Australia and was training and preparing. I walked in the opening ceremonies, and then I found out they were appealing it again in an international court of arbitration for sport. And they woke up this judge from the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, and he said, frankly, you guys beat me. I have no jurisdiction outside the United States, but if you ever plan on returning to the United States, I will have air marshals at the airport waiting to arrest you.

14:51So, you know, do what you must do. And during this time, the case was upheld by the United States Supreme Court as well. So I think everything worked out in the favor that it should. And four days later, I had to compete in the Olympic Games and ultimately made it to the finals and lost to Murat Cardanoff from Russia in the Olympic finals. I've yet to meet an athlete that can say they won a silver medal and got to go to the Supreme Court. That is by far more interesting conversation with strangers than I'll ever have. So when did MMA start for you? While I was training for the Olympics. I got an opportunity in 1997.

15:39I took that opportunity and took three fights and just absolutely loved the sport. And it wasn't MMA at that time. It was no holds barred. Yeah, no rules. There was literally three rules. You couldn't bite. You couldn't gouge somebody's eye out. and you couldn't attack them in the groin. And I just really enjoyed this, but what I recognized was if I were to continue to pursue this sport, that I would really be distracted from reaching my goals in wrestling. So I took those three fights, won a tournament, and just said, you know what, I'm going to focus on the Olympic Games. and that was probably what made it really hard when I decided to focus on the games and then making the team, qualifying the weight class for the United States and then still trying to get pushed off the Olympic team made it really hard for me.

16:36So after the Olympics, I basically was just done. I was completely done with USA Wrestling and then I realized that we were supposed to have the world championships in New York City in September in 2001. And so I took a break from fighting and came back to the sport of wrestling. And the games did not happen in New York in September 2001 because— Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, 9-11. So, right. So the World Championships were postponed until December and ultimately moved up a weight class and came home with another silver medal for the United States. But I had started my fighting career already at that time with the former owners of the UFC, which was SEG.

17:36Yeah. Semaphore Entertainment Group. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The original creator. So, so teach. So, uh, so in UFC 29, was Semaphore still the owner when you fought in UFC 29? Yes. Okay. So they were the owner. And so then at what point, you know, in your fighting career with the UFC, did it change over? Um, cause I don't have the dates here in front of me because you were in 29, 31, 34. Was it in those first three fights? It changed over in 30. And I fought in the first sanctioned fight in Trump Taj Mahal in 31. Which was the first one of the Fertittas on the production? No, it was the second one. They bought it after 29.

18:21They held a provisionally sanctioned event in New Jersey and then got it sanctioned and I fought in the first sanctioned event. Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay. So, you know, can you teach us a little bit of the inside baseball? I mean, Semaphore had been running it as Michael talked about in his book. Um, Semaphore was kind of, they were running out of leash with the regulators in each of these States, the boxing commissions, the fighting commissions, et cetera. What was it like to watch to go, you know, you fought and won with Semaphore, you end up fighting under the Fertittas. Was there a big change just as a fighter in those productions or was that just kind of not much change just the owners as you witnessed it early on not much change right right when things happened it wasn't a lot of change until maybe another year later and they started getting their their their bearings and understanding how to run these shows and then it became all about contracts and negotiations and i mean i i showed up the fight.

19:21I was supposed to be on a main card. I got relegated to an undercard because I refused to sign an addendum to my contract. Well, I didn't refuse to sign it. They handed me an addendum to a contract on a Tuesday and I was fighting on Saturday. And they said, oh, hey, I need you to sign this addendum to your contract. I said, okay. So this would be like Dana White would be coming to you and saying, here's your addendum or would that be the Fertittas themselves or who would be coming to you with that? No, it was just the people in the office handing me a paper going, hey, you need to sign this. And I'm like, this is a contract.

19:54I'm going to have an attorney look at this. And Dana was like, you need to sign it now. And I was like, okay, as soon as my attorney gets back to me, I mean, the fight's on Saturday night, buddy. We got time to do this. And ultimately, it was about sponsors. And I got paid$15 ,000 to show for that fight and$15 ,000 to win. My sponsor was paying me$30 ,000. And they were trying to remove my sponsor from that fight. And ultimately, I did not violate the regulations of their new contract. I was very careful. I called my sponsor and said, hey, here's what they're telling me to do. They said, okay, don't worry about it.

20:37just, you know, wear the merchandise around the event and anything that's not in the ring. And so I did that. So, yeah, and then ultimately I was released the next Monday after that fight from that contract. I was hired back and then released again. And then ultimately Dana tried to hire me a third time and I was like, I was out at that time. um so that's a that's a story in itself right there well because i think but you know michael talked a lot about how effectively those outside sponsorships were present in ufc and then anything inside the ring became the exclusive control really of ufc where it was effectively taking the money out of the pocket of the fighters and putting like a little bit of money in their pocket but not much because obviously they were taking the lion's share of the sponsorship dollars inside that ring absolutely i mean most most sports athletes get about 50 and we're under 20 still to this day i think uh ufc athletes are still under like 20 of of their net revenue so yeah i think he points out that i think yeah if you look at the overall cash flow of the business they're 20 it's it's you know 40 would be more typical for more sports leagues so um because let's see.

22:01So, uh, uh, I, I guess, you know, we, we mentioned Dana a little bit, uh, you know, was it that contentious to deal with Dana or was Dana actually a fun guy to be around from time to time? No, he, he was very contentious. He was, um, he was a bully. I mean, he was just an absolute bully. Um, you know, and, and I mentioned, you know, early in the conversation how, So, you know, I had a coaching staff change and Dana remind me a lot of, you know, coaches I've worked with before that are just like, this is how you're going to do it. You know, and it's like, OK, I don't need you around me. You know, I'll do it my way.

22:46And as a subcontractor, I mean, you're you're a 1099 employee, you know, no health benefits, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. No health benefits, no retirement. There's nothing. And same thing with USA Wrestling. There was no benefits, no health. I mean, you were a 1099 employee all the time. Yeah, so what were your interactions with Joe Rogan then? I mean, because he became the color guy not long after the Fertitta's changeover. And he was just kind of a, from what Michael said, he was just a natural fan of the sport. And that's what gave him a lot of his enjoyment for calling matches was that he actually enjoyed it.

23:23um it you know it was joe a completely different interaction compared to dana uh yeah well i mean he didn't have any you know ownership role joe joe is a fun guy for sure to be around he's definitely not my type of a individual he's he's uh very he i think he's coming around i i've listened to some of his podcasts and stuff or at least uh other podcasters that cover him and talk about him being, you know, open more to the gospel. Um, but he was very anti Jesus, uh, type of guy, like almost hostile towards the gospel. Um, but you know, I mean, he was a guy you could have dinner with and have a good conversation with.

24:09Um, you know, my, my wife went away from one dinner going, that guy hates women, doesn't he? I'm like, I don't know. I mean, it sounded like it, sweetheart. Well, yeah, I was going to say, I think something, I don't think this went into the book, which, by the way, before I forget, I will forget this. I brought up your name to Michael and, you know, didn't know if, you know, he I assume he knew of you, but didn't know. And he spoke very highly of you. And I mentioned we were going to do this extra content with him. And he mentioned that you actually got edited out of the book. So as soon as I found that out, I thought, okay, we further need to have Matt on because if this is something that would have normally been in the unedited edition, I have to throw it in.

24:49By the way, on that note, I think one of the better, more interesting recent podcasts I picked up was one of Joe Rogan's discussions. Let's see. It was about, it was actually about, you know, kind of questioning evolution. And it was interesting to your point, you know, someone like Joe Rogan that you don't exactly expect someone to be like receptive to asking the question is science right or is evolution right or you know um he had just an incredibly interesting discussion so i don't disagree with you uh i think as time changes it's interesting to see how some of his content and topic and discussions have moved further right or to your point like there there's probably more likely there's a god um much more interesting so um let's see you know what was the most i mean i was looking at over the all the places you fought what of the venues you go to what was the most interesting venue you ever you ever fought either because the city was great or just because you got there and it's not what you expected for fans uh i mean i would definitely have to go tost petersburg um when i fought uh fedora milionenko who was the number one heavyweight at the at the time not in the ufc i was the number one middleweight not in the ufc even though ufc runs their own rankings.

26:04The rest of the world had us both ranked number one in the world at our prospective weight. So I moved up two weight classes. And not only did I fight in that event, I got invited to the presidential palace after the fight and had an evening with Vladimir Putin. And at that time, Prime Minister of Italy, Bernicelli. And for some weird reason Jean-Claude Van Damme was there at the dinner. Bloodsport in the living right? Yeah I know it was a I mean I love St. Petersburg as it is and I was there for 10 days and eight of them was direct sunlight which is like you get like 10 days a year direct sunlight in St.

26:48Petersburg So it was an interesting place to go. I enjoy traveling, especially in Russia. I mean, that's a really interesting spot because they love combative athletes. I mean, it's just part of their culture. So while you're training for the UFC in the early 2000s, you re-engage your relationship with Randy. and you guys start Team Quest, did you just have trouble finding a good gym? No. What happened was we kind of skipped. So I went back to coach at the University of Nebraska while I was training for the Olympics. Immediately after I got home from the Olympic Games, I had moved. We had a coaching staff change at the University of Nebraska.

27:44I was hired than my job was given to somebody else and I was just like okay well I'll leave but they owed me some money Which was a at that time a pretty substantial amount of money. It was eight thousand dollars for Work that I'd already done so I had to go back to Lincoln to get paid and to move my family and I'd already moved my wife and my kids to Oregon and I had them staying with friends and family while I, they came to the Olympics but while I was in training camp we were basically homeless you know, so until after the Olympic Games I went back and moved my family's possessions and started a car business in the same town that kind of my hometown but where Randy was currently training.

28:39They lost the lease on their, on their business, which was a, uh, a small like boutique gym that they were running. And they said they needed a place to train. And I had a car lot and we rolled some mats down in our garage and we just started training together. Interesting. So then you, obviously you came back, like you mentioned, you coached Nebraska, but then you also came back later and you coached, uh, team USA. Uh, I was going to ask you, what was it like to go from being the athlete to being the coach for these athletes? Cause obviously you had an, you know, you had a strange experience as you laid out earlier, you know, in your Olympic career.

29:18Um, what was that like as you know, this person that had to fight, uh, the politics of it versus being the coach in the middle of it? I mean, I, I, I had always coached my my first coaching job was in 93 when I moved back after college I coached another athlete who ended up being a pretty popular UFC fighter in high school wrestling which was Chael Summon I was I was also you know coaching at a couple different clubs trying to make ends meet while I was training there but ultimately the training situation wasn't ideal that's why I moved to Colorado. And then that wasn't ideal and so I moved to back to Nebraska and then at this time we were we'd started a business and my wife and I were working at our car lot and I you know I trained athletes that were fighting in in the UFC.

30:18I trained wrestlers. I've always I've always coached. I've always worked with athletes. So I think it was a natural progression when that job opened and the coach that held that position for over two decades retired from that. I was, it was a natural fit for me to go in there. But, you know, my approach was definitely build relationships first, connect before you can correct. You've got to build these relationships with athletes so you have trust and buy-in. And we were having a lot of success. We hit some milestones in our sport that have never been accomplished before, a number of junior and cadet world medalists, so that's under 17 and under 20.

31:10And statistically speaking, you start getting athletes to win at 17, 18, 19 years old, these athletes can start winning medals at the senior level, Olympic medals, by the time they're 2021. So just setting the program up for success and, you know, but really doing it in a way that has never been done before in the United States, more of a European style model. Gotcha. So you're always, you know, like, as you point out, while you were an athlete, you were coaching, you know, you're kind of a man of many projects as I look at you. Um, so I'd love to just kind of, uh, ask what are, what are your projects you're in right now?