A Tribute, A Tactic, Or An Appellate Issue?

0:11Hello, and welcome to the latest episode of the Thinking Like a Lawyer podcast. My name is Catherine Urbino. I'm your host and senior editor at Above the Law. And today, my usual co-host, Joe Patrice, is busy at ILTACON, a giant legal tech conference, because that's, you know, his favorite thing to do these days. But I am luckily joined by another one of the editors at Above the Law, Stacey Zaretsky. Hey, Stacey. Hey, Catherine. How are you? I am doing well. Thank you so much for joining me today. I know it's not part of your usual complement of tasks at Above the Law, but we appreciate you stepping in.

0:46I'm so happy to be here. Yeah. And you're actually, I think, the longest serving Above the Law editor that is currently at the company. What you started, like when, like a million years ago? How long have you been writing for ATL? Yeah, I started in 2010, part-time, and went full-time in 2011. So I've made it through a million law school cohorts at this point. You've made it through the wilderness to quote the incomparable Madonna. Regular listeners know we start our show off with a segment we like to call Small Talk. Joe's not here. We don't have our actual soundboard. So Small Talk, Stacey, what's new and shaken in your neck of the woods?

1:35Well, my sister's wedding was this weekend. Oh, congratulations. That was a total blast. Thanks. It was so much fun. My sister and I gave a co-matron of honor speech that was more of a roast. We were very happy to embarrass slash not embarrass my little sister. It was a lot of fun. And my kids just found out they're teachers. So that's another fun thing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, school, at least over here, school starts next week. So this is that terrible time of year where like basically all the camps and all that good stuff are over. But school has not yet started. So it's a hodgepodge of figuring out what to do with children.

2:17I'm in the exact same boat and it's so quote unquote fun. Yeah, like the library by us is like advertising like all their like little hour long programs here and there. Be like, you need your kids out of your house. You need something to do. here's something to do. And I'm like, this will come up again. Exactly. Meanwhile, over here, it's Roblox and Nintendo until mommy is done working. To have a kid that understands instructions. But that is toddler life. And here we are. I'm still, listen, my kid had a bit of a speech delay. So I'm just happy when she says anything and understands anything. If it's not quite following instructions properly.

3:00That sounds like her teacher's problems next week, not mine right now. But I think that that's probably all we have in our small talk segment. See, it's just sad when we don't have the... But we will start with our typical format, which is we talk about the top stories in the legal world from the legal world from the week that was. And their top story last week, is actually part of the terrible saga of Lindsay Clancy accused of killing her three kids. But this story that we actually covered for it is not about the horrors of postpartum psychosis or sort of the internet sleuths talking about alternate theories of the crime or any of that, but rather the lawyers involved.

3:54We're a podcast about lawyers. This is what we like to talk about. But specifically about the prosecutor in the case who has taken to wearing bows in her hair, and it is reportedly in tribute to one of the victims who was a big fan of bows, as little girls frequently are. That fashion choice has sparked a lot of conversation. Again, a lot of internet sleuthings on this case, and people have dug into social media posts of the prosecutor. And this is not a typical fashion choice that is made by her. You know, listen, somebody like me, I wear bows all the time. That's just kind of par for my course.

4:36But this is not something that she typically does but is instead doing. And there's some conversation. Is this going to garner sympathy with the jury? Is this something that if it comes to appeals that an appeal court would have an issue with as sort of improper jury manipulation? will it backfire? Will the jury kind of see it as doing too much because the case is not necessarily there? So that's kind of the conversation that's been going on behind the scenes. What do you kind of think about what's going on? I want to say I think it's a bit inappropriate, but if I were a juror, I'm not necessarily thinking about what the prosecutor is wearing in her hair.

5:23That's not something that I'm thinking about when it comes to who did what when in a case of three children were killed. I don't I'm not really thinking about the hair bow, you know, that's certainly certainly fair. And first of all, I don't think anyone's really in danger of sort of losing the gravity of the situation and the horror of the crimes involved. But I also think that being a jury, it's a lot more involved than on TV or in the movies. And there's a lot of downtime and there's a lot of time kind of in between witnesses and sitting there as things are getting done. And there's not a lot you can do as a juror, right, besides look at what's in front of you.

6:06And given that kind of hyper fixation that can happen, I do wonder if that's something that the jury has noticed, even if they don't know sort of what's behind it, but kind of note that it's going on. And, you know, that's an interesting choice, that kind of conversation in their minds happening. To be forced to focus on the woman who's talking the whole time and looking at the hair bow and having to think about what that represents. Yeah. Yeah. I also think this is not something I wrote in the story is kind of something that I thought about, you know, as the conversation continues to happen on social media and the like.

6:45And that is the way that hair bows, particularly in the hair of a grown woman, kind of echoes the trad wife aesthetic that is super popular in certain corners of the internet right now. And I think that's a real big part of the case, because I think that there's a real segment of people who are very want to see Lindsay Clancy punished in a very aggressive way because she doesn't live up to this kind of trad wife ideal of mother. And obviously, like, she did something terrible. She's admitted that she's done something terrible. I know there are people who don't necessarily think that that's what happened.

7:25But I do think, though, that playing against these notions of what a traditional wife and mother should be in your aesthetic choices not just kind of echoes the victim in the sense that she was, you know, a young girl who favored bows, but also kind of pulls in this this aesthetic of trad wife that that is not being spoken about, but it's definitely playing a role, I think, in the trial. I agree that you have to be the perfect picture of a mother and that she was not. And I do think that that, you know, has that kind of echo going on in it as well. Well, terrible case for sure. And hopefully the fashion choices will not be the actual arbiter of justice in the case in either direction.

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9:07That's my impression of the hold music your callers hear right before they hang up. Smith AI pairs AI with real live agents to answer calls, qualify leads, book consultations, and even send retainers 24-7. Better intake, fewer missed opportunities. No more hold music solos. Try it free at smith.ai. Mention above the law or use code NOHOLD at signup to claim 20 % off your first two months of service. Okay. We are going to switch gears a little bit and talk about private equity. everyone's favorite sort of punching bag for all the ills of, you know, late stage capitalism, private equity is starting to get a foothold in legal, which, you know, it's probably going to be terrible.

9:59We've talked about this in the past on this show as well. But now there's reportedly a firm that has a buyer. Wood Smith, Henning and Berman has reportedly signed a$700 million deal with Charles Bank, the PE fund that actually got its start through managing the Harvard endowment. And they are reportedly involved. I think it's an interesting choice of sort of who's involved. And I know this is something you've written a little bit about as well. But Wood Smith, Jeff Henning is not, you know, sort of it's not a big law firm. It's not a Wall Street firm. It's a insurance defense firm, but it is physically large.

10:43If you're talking just about headcount, you know, it does make various lists. There are 500 lawyers across 43 offices, 35 states, including and London. So they have an international office as well. So that it's very, very large. But its revenue, you know, kind of sits it just outside of big law proper,$244 million last year. So not a boutique by any stretch of the imagination, but not quite big law. Which do you think that this is the sort of firm that you would have predicted would be the first to kind of take the P.E. plunge? I think it's an interesting guinea pig because they do have a lot of lawyers.

11:26They do have a lot of money, but not a lot of money. So they're going to see how it works. I think that this is a very interesting starting point, because what if it works? I mean, we kind of know what if it doesn't work, because this isn't going to be the endless billable hours or shrimp of law firms. Right. Yeah. And I think that, you know, it's the management services organization structure that is going to be the mechanism of the deal where the investor kind of they spin off. that the investor invests in sort of the back-end functions, billing, software, IT, HR, that kind of stuff. And lawyers, you know, do the lawing part of it.

12:09And that kind of is intended to get around the ethical rules that say that only lawyers are allowed to own law firms. And similar structures have been done in other professional services for vets, for vets, healthcare, all this kind of stuff that, you know, PE has already taken over. But I do think it's interesting. And I wonder if I wonder how good a goody pig this is for the industry as a whole, because I do think that the note the nature of high volume insurance defense work is a little bit different than sort of bet the company, you know, top end kind of not just litigation, but also corporate work as well, which obviously is a mainstay of big law.

12:54Exactly. Because when private equity takes things over, things tend to get more expensive. Big law firms are already charging a lot of money. How much more will in-house be willing to take? Yeah. And is it going to be nickel and dimed? In what way does it get more expensive? You know, I think that it's also, you know, not not coincidental that this is really being considered by the industry at a time when AI is kind of knocking at the door, threatening to change the law firm business model in terms of the billable hour and that sort of stuff. Because if you can, you know, if AI is helping you do your job and not just sort of off the shelf chat GPT, right, we're talking about like legal technology, the sort of thing that Joe writes extensively about for above the law.

13:43It's different. It's not it's not quite the same, but it still is going to increase the speed of doing a lot of these tasks, decrease the overhead in terms of headcount and that sort of stuff. And I do think that in the repeat business is sort of – I don't want to disparage insurance defense work at all. It's obviously great business, whatever. But it tends to be more plug and play than some of the more bespoke kinds of litigation. And I do wonder if it is more suited for it in that respect than in some other types of law firms. I agree. Just because it is such a different billing environment than in big law proper, I guess they'll see how it goes.

14:31Well, we'll see is certainly, I think, a part of it. I mean, I don't know. Listen, I will continue to write about this. I will continue to speculate about all of this. But in my heart, I don't know, I find it hard to imagine that, I don't know, Wachtell winds up taking some outside investment. It just seems, it feels maybe, you know, my own prejudice as, you know, a lawyer myself. You know, I just can't imagine that this becomes mainstay in big law. But, I mean, they're taking meetings, right? Exactly. Business Insider wrote a thing last week about all these firms that are having people write the memo.

15:19So looking at it, taking meetings, you know, all this stuff is going on behind the scenes. and I know it feels shocking. Right, right. But I also think it's because it's like, ooh, can we make even more money? Is this the way that we can make even more money? Absolutely. But it feels weird to have something coming in like this to upset the apple cart of legal practice, you know? Yeah, and obviously, I know we've spoken about this in the past, But it cannot be divorced from the super burning hot lateral partner market in big law as well. All of a sudden, we have$40 million contracts,$100 million contracts, multi-year contracts being thrown around to the top rainmakers in the industry.

16:08And if you're going to offer somebody a$100 million contract, you should probably have other ways to get an infusion of cash, which, you know, P.E. might just be that answer. Either way. Yeah. This is the way, to quote a thing. All right. We will take a quick break and then come back with our final story of the week. turning back to the news and to crime as it were, but there was there's a there's a coke ring at Penn State or there was a coke ring at Penn State. And listen, launch launch a thousand jokes. I'm sure you've all heard about it. But the Pennsylvania AG's office arrested 14 people in association with Operation Drugs Unlimited.

17:00Thirteen of them were Penn State students and involved in two fraternities that were cutting and packaging cocaine kilos. So that was a thing. Joe wrote about this story this week. And listen, you know, I am loathe to give him any more credit than he needs. But he's got some puns going on in this piece. And if you're a fan of that, you should definitely check it out. But I think that as a college sports fan, the AG's office absolutely should have nicknamed this operation Operation Whiteout, if you don't know. Absolutely. That was a miss. A clear miss. Clear miss. Clear miss. Penn State is famous for when they're trying to intimidate their opponents in football and everyone wearing white, and they call it a whiteout.

17:50And, you know, it's a cocaine bust, guys. It was right there. The joke was right there. But, you know, obviously everyone's been talking about this and making all the jokes. And as I said, Joe definitely got his digs in. But, you know, listen, we don't just write about crime at Above the Law, right? Because there's a lot of crime. It is legal, of course, but that is not, you know, that is not sort of our nuts and bolts. Our nuts and bolts is the legal profession. And wouldn't you know it, 14 people arrested, 13 of which were Penn State students at the time of the alleged crimes. But one person, the other person who was not a Penn State student at the times of the crimes in question is a lawyer.

18:34Yeah. Yeah. But not just a lawyer. Also the father of one of the other folks who arrested one of the co-ringleaders as is alleged. But none of his crimes that are alleged against Paul Robinson, the attorney involved, were in the cutting of said kilo, but rather in felony tampering, hindering apprehension, concealing evidence, et cetera, et cetera, which which also without obviously commenting on the truth of any of the allegations that are that have been alleged, but feels like, you know, dadding more than more than anything else. And this lawyer's son was allegedly the number two in this cocaine crime spree.

19:23And wouldn't you know it, he just had his law school admission revoked because of his alleged involvement in this whole drug affair. And it was at the same law school that his dad went to. Yeah, I mean, he not only was going to go to law school, he had a full ride lined up for himself, and that is all gone. Exactly. Yeah, and you might say like, oh, that's you, innocent until proven guilty. But I feel like in some ways it's the law school being like, hey, buddy, you're going to have a hard time getting through character and fitness. Why don't you not spend the next three years pretending you're going to be a lawyer one day?

20:03Because you're not going to actually be admitted to the bar. So, you know, I think there's there's definitely an element of that involved as well. But, you know, not surprising that law school, not just admission again, this is this is a full ride. I'm sure there are other people who aren't allegedly Coke dealers, like massive Coke dealers who deserve that. And I'm sure he allegedly could have paid for law school with all of the money he allegedly made from what he was accused of being involved in. But why are you giving up the free money for law school? Exactly. Exactly. Listen, if somebody offers you free money for law school, you take the free money for law school even if you're sitting on a Coke fortune.

20:50Allegedly. Allegedly. Yeah. I think this is interesting. It also gives me shades of Operation Varsity Blues, which, as you recall, was the other scandal where parents were accused of paying their way into getting their kids into elite institutions. But also a lawyer was involved in that instance. It was a big law partner. But, you know, lawyers were accused of, you know, parenting too aggressively. in this in that case it was you know paying to have their kids get into top schools um and in this case it is allegedly covering up or concealing evidence of crimes but you know it it it's giving it's giving parenting too hard and and you know consequence sometimes your kids have to experience consequences uh and and we'll see how this all pans out for them but um but that that's certainly part of what's going on here.

21:52This dad, I want to say, was a helicopter parent, but it turned out he was allegedly a drug helicopter parent. There's something there for sure. It's like a drug run helicopter. I don't know. It's a lot. It's a lot. But certainly, to bring it back to our earlier conversation, as a parent of a young child, this is what not to do in parenting. You may want the best for your kid, but maybe this isn't the way to do it. Okay. Those are our stories of the week. Do you have anything else, Stacey, to add? No, I was just very happy to be on the show this week. Well, we are happy to have you. And maybe, listen, we are heading into headlong into legal tech conference season.

22:43Obviously, this is August, but the month of October, I believe, if you've looked at, I don't know if you've looked ahead in our work calendar into October, but it is ugly the amount of conferences that our colleague will be attending back to back to back. October is going to be brutal. So there is a high likelihood you get called back into service in October. I can't do it again. I would helpfully submit that you should keep your Mondays in October free for recording the podcast. I'll be here. It seems likely that this is going to come up again. Well, thank you all for listening. Remember to subscribe to Thinking Like a Lawyer on your podcast listening service of choice.

23:30Be sure to read us at Above the Law and follow us on social media. It's at ATLBlog. I'm at Catherine1. What is your social media handle, Stacey? At Stacey Zaretsky. Nice and easy to spell. It's F-T-E-C-I-G-A-R-E-T-S-K-Y. Awesome. Be sure you listen to our podcast and give us reviews, not just the stars, though obviously we'll take them, but written reviews help us move up the algorithm and help other people find us as a legal podcast. You can also check out the other offerings of the Legal Talk Network and my other podcast, which is the Jabot. And Joe is one of the guests on the Legal Talk, but not the Legal Tech Journalists Roundtable.

24:15I always make fun of him because he never remembers the name of the show that he's on. And I also screwed it up. But, you know, if he can't remember it, he's on it. He's on it, not me. Anyway, you should be listening. Give us the stars. Do all the things. And we'll talk next week. Peace. Thank you.