Maybe The Legal Industry Has Just Lost All Sense Of Shame

0:11Well, welcome back to another edition of Thinking Like a Lawyer. I'm Joe Patrice from Above the Law. I am joined by Catherine Rubino and Chris Williams, who also have, you know, jobs at Above the Law. Hey. There you go. And as well as other things, Catherine's the host of the Jabot. You know, don't want to, like, leave out the—I don't want to make it sound like you're a one-trick pony or anything. Sure. No Jabot erasure here. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah, and we do the thing that we do every week, which is talk about some of the big stories from the week that was in legal over here at Above the Law. That said, we usually like to begin with a little bit of small talk.

0:44We chat about like just kind of things that are going on. I am starting to get really sick. Yeah, it's that time of year. I feel like I'm not going to be well again until April. Yeah. So you might hear my voice may sound more nasally than usual. Yeah. So, you know, got to work on it, I guess. But anyway, I was traveling over the weekend. I had a flight back. How was it sort of post shutdown? Pretty bad. It got delayed a couple hours, but it was still, you know, still going. Like I will say the flight attendant clearly was having a rough go of it that day. And I'm sure I'm sure it was bad. But I mean, I to the extent where I was.

1:27Do you remember several years ago there was some flight attendant? I feel like it was JetBlue or something who just had a complete break, opened the door, inflated the slide and slid out of the airplane like on the tarmac. Does anybody remember that? I don't, but were you that close to? I felt like this person was that close. They kept running around the plane and getting people's faces for not paying sufficient attention to the safety explanation. And then eventually stopped mid safety demonstration and got on the phone and made the captain come on and say that he would turn the plane around to go back to the gate.

2:05We're going to turn this plane around. But I mean, it was just psychotic break. Did it actually delay you further? I mean, we did get delayed further. I don't know if that was it or if the airport had another issue. But we did pull away and then sit on the ground for another half hour. Oh, my goodness. No, it was wild. I was very worried. And I assume it was because, you know, like it was the end of the day where there had been delays. So I assume it had just been a long day. But, you know, it kind of reminded me of how, you know, the psychological pressures on folks in that situation who are working that and how without the right coping mechanisms.

2:47Things go pear-shaped. There but for the grace of God goes somebody down the inflatable slide. But... Fair enough. I spent yet another weekend putting up Christmas decor. Oh, good for you. You know, I do think I'm going to cut back on my Christmasing this year. I think you said that last time. I know, but I really thought that maybe I'd, like, come around. Ah. I really held out hope for myself, but I have no such hope. What else is going on? Yeah, this weekend I finally saw Inglourious Bastards. Oh, okay. So you got a bunch of jokes that Joe's made over the years, finally. I'm not a huge fan of that one.

3:26Like, it's good. I feel like the reference you make, though. Not really. Yeah. Interesting. Well, at this point, tonight we're killing Nazis feels evergreen. So there's probably still some value to glean from it. So, well, you know, it's interesting. I actually, that's a really interesting take, especially how a piece of art can change contextually based on different stuff going on. I was actually, I always had issues with it because at the juncture in time when it came out was the height of the W. Bush administration and Dick Cheney administration, maybe since he's been in the news. R.I.P. Yeah, it was at the height of their, you know, torture, Abu Ghra, Guantanamo stories.

4:13And I felt like the Inglourious Bastards in that context, while clearly more of a response to, you know, the response to Nazis quite literally. Sure. I was always deeply troubled because it was kind of a love letter to if you think this is your enemy, feel free to torture them. And it came at a really problematic time for that message, I thought. But, you know, it's interesting that today I would see it very differently, much as Chris is kind of laying out there. Yeah. And speaking of normalizing terroristic conditions, the entire time I was watching Glorious Bastards, I was thinking about all the content we're getting from the White House about how we're getting like Sith Lord Trump and the alligator prisons, which harks back to a racial trope of them feeding enslaved babies to alligators.

5:06History is really weird on this. but yeah i don't know if this is the proper way to frame it but i in my mind i process it as kind of like a spaghetti western but in court of like a like a django sort of like historical revenge film and i think there is there can be space for that but given it's also one of the things where like even though it came out like 2009 or so it was hard to not see uh well not see but it's hard to not see this film as like being like some sort of like and we're a special You know, like they're like they're like a secret police force. Yeah. But yeah, Inglourious Bastards.

5:44It was it was a good read. Oh, it was it was a good watch. Yeah. Anyway, well, let's we should move along. The first topic of the week is you had a story about the former recruiting director somewhere. Yeah. Interesting story. Danielle Pack was the legal recruiting director at Holland and Knight. Unfortunately for her, she was caught on video doing a racist rant. Ah. Yeah. It's unclear. Who among us? Yeah. Right. Really? It's unclear based on the context exactly what happened. But in the video, she's standing with the door of a cab of a sort of big truck. And she's yelling at the driver and saying something about like, you know, things were delivered somewhere or dumped somewhere.

6:38I'm not sure. She didn't think that's where they were supposed to be. But instead of trying to like work it out like a reasonable grown person, she drops the N word. The hard R. You know, not great. But her LinkedIn profile all of a sudden was gone, as well as references to her on Holland and Knight's website. And when I reached out to the big law firm, they made it clear that she was that that sort of language is unacceptable. And she is no longer employed by Holland and Knight. Well, at least she didn't blame it on allergy medicine. I mean, all right. Remember that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, she hasn't actually issued a statement, just kind of pulled her profiles.

7:24She's talked enough for a little bit now. I think she should probably hold up. Yeah. Yeah. Really, really crazy. But it does mean kind of the broader extrapolation out of this is that obviously recruiting is a job that, you know, prior to this administration, at least it was understood to be on the forefront of promoting diversity in a workplace. and uh it's possible that there were some implicit problems uh implicit biases living uh underneath that project yeah and and certainly sort of pre-trump to reign uh the collington knight uh website had lots of positive statements about dei their mansfield certified firm you know doing the things that you know one thought that they ought to uh and this is the person that was at the sort of the center of their recruitment efforts and it really it really is shocking that someone who harbors that sort of language in their in their person uh is able to rise in the ranks uh for years saying paying lip service at least to um a bunch of different values is it yeah that's a long con yeah a long con so like i'm i'm simple on these things i i it might be it might be too much media analysis but i kind of take that patrick bateman scene in the heart where he's saying all the right things and the whole time you know he gives no shits about any of this and he's actually murderous sure but that was notable because he was a psychopath right the low-key part is that most people can't no no i think it's the way i the way i've processed was the thing that was notable was that he seemed so normal like the the the argument being that the psychopathy is there's so baseline that he's not that anomalous which is how i how i read the scene but i do hear i do i do get your reading of it that he's that he's weird in this case but But I understood with the card scene.

9:33There's a culture he's participating in that he's emblematic of. I'm sure people at the table also had those thoughts. But anyway, that's an aside. That's an interesting one because I think one of the points that Chris is making too, it's not his primary point, but a subset of it is put aside whether or not it's widespread. I think what you're saying is a psychopath can easily fool people. So like if we are at the point where somebody actually thinks this, it is the possibility that they engage at a long con is actually pretty likely. You know, like we're all we've already crossed the bridge where this might be likely.

10:11Well, at least let's talk less about like psychopaths with the way that racism happens. Like racists have these thoughts. they pretend to not have the thoughts behind closed doors these are the things they say occasionally the mask breaks but just because the person is nice and kind doesn't mean that they don't harbor racial ill intent so now here's my question so your read of that book do you think he actually killed anybody i've always been fascinated what people's takes on it that's a i think it's i think it's left to be up to up to the reader it is i mean it definitely is but yeah I just am always fascinated where people come down on it, whether or not it was real or if he was just like imagining it all.

10:57Anyway, whatever. I think he really does like the music, though.

11:04Catherine's glaring at that idea. No, no, I wasn't glaring. I just was thinking. All right. Well, so that was kind of our big story of the week. It does speak to how issues may not be resolved in big law and, you know, ever vigilant, I suppose. From here, I guess let's take a break. And Catherine, you're up again on the other side with more crazy.

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13:07All right, so we are back. What is going on with dominatrixes and dominatrices? I actually believe there's only one dominatrix in this story. Oh, I mean, that makes my, like, Latin. I think it's Latin, yeah. Yeah, my Latin conjugation, like, not as fun. Sure. This was an interesting story, and to kind of peel the curtain back, you know, the writing process when we start finding out stuff. I mean, if that's what you're into. OK, that's one of those things where, you know, you read there's a complaint filed against a big law partner by his former firm, Blank Rome Finance partner. It was a case was filed against him.

13:50And at first, you know, obviously, when you read the complaint, you should you know, when you're reading a complaint, you should be like, oh, that that's a bad thing that happened. That's how they're written. They're made to be meant to be advocacy pieces, whatever. So, you know, you aware of that, you're like, oh, that happened. Oh, interesting. And then I found out more and more information and I was like, this is way more complicated than that initial complaint. And I kind of switched some of my thinking about what's going on here. But Blank Rome partner James Critella, a guy had a lawsuit filed against him by Otterberg PC, his former firm, for a bunch of things, including the allegations go cyber stalking two of the firm leaders.

14:27They also had allegations that he left the firm under false pretenses because he took a large bonus and didn't tell them at the time that he received his bonus that he was planning on leaving, which seems like exactly what everyone does, and tried to solicit clients to join him at his new firm. And they alleged that it was at events that were paid for by Otterberg. And the interesting thing is that there is a similar complaint against another former Otterberg partner also currently at blank Rome. And these cyber stalking allegations, though they sound scary when you say them like that, according to some of the filings in the other case, it makes it clear that it's what happened was their partners at the firm were putting their personal documents on the firm system and did not have any kind of password protection or whatnot.

15:24So that when you did a search and one of those documents came up, if you were going through the search results, you could see a preview of the document. And that included some pretty personal documents, including like security information, travel information for not just the partners but their family, that kind of stuff. And there's also another federal case that the two partners have filed against Critella as well, saying that he invaded their privacy. And so there's also a motion to dismiss in that case going on. So there's three cases that are going on. But let's talk about the dominatrix. Okay.

15:58According to the - Can that be a thing on the soundboard? Yes. Let's talk about the dominatrix. Let's talk about the dominatrix for a second. So according to the complaint, Critella used his firm-issued phone to engage in some highly inappropriate and potentially unlawful conduct, including text messages with an upscale dominatrix goddess cat. Oh, I was hoping her name would be something like Mistrial or something like that. Boo. Okay, okay, okay. You get half credit for that in my mind. Misprison, misadventure. So apparently, allegedly, he engaged in - Misdemeanor.

16:47Misandry. Misandry. There were also other illicit messages, not necessarily between the dominatrix, but between other individuals and Critella on his firm issued phone. And the allegations are also that Critella tried to erase them before he turned in his phone because, yeah, but that forensics were able to turn up these salacious messages. Listen, people, if you're going to get domed out by a burner phone, you clearly have enough disposable income to pay for some vices. Be responsible. That's not bad advice. Madame ages. Madame ages. I'm sorry. Why don't you put a pin in that and come back and workshop it later?

17:33Was sticking a pin in that one of the text messages really? Yeah, I made it right. But it is kind of interesting that the and I'm not sure how bad, you know, these these text messages and the the dominatrix allegations seem very much thrown in as just trying to, you know, muddy the waters more than anything else. because, sure, he used his firm-funded phone for some personal business, but, you know, who amongst us hasn't, you know, called their mom on their phone if not their dominatrix? Right. I just imagine somebody's hearing this and they're like, y 'all get phones for this? You know, like the...

18:14It's like when you're asking for something, it's like, I seek leave of the court.

18:23But in the federal case filed by the two partners as well as the one against the other guy. There have been motions to dismiss it. And it seems that the motions to dismiss are largely that this is sour grapes, that this is because they left the firm, apparently took some clients with them, or at least attempted to take some clients with them, and the firm paid them bonuses before they left, that the firm is just really butthurt about it all. Stop. See, no, you're cut off. Am I? Yeah. See, you took it too far. I thought butthurt was the technical term. Let Catherine Cook. The motions to dismiss in the other two cases, and the most recent one hasn't as of yet had a motion to dismiss file, but the other two have.

19:13And they are filled with allegations that Otterberg's cases are baseless, bogus, and, you know, are far more related to their decision to leave the firm than against any privacy-related injury that the plaintiffs might have had because they didn't know how to properly secure documents that they put on the system. This is why. I was like, this is why Legal Tech is so important. You need to understand how to set proper permissions on your document management system. I mean, that is absolutely a giant part of this. a giant part of the story. And the other... A greater mind could have come up with a proper permission to dominate your tie-in.

19:51That was ripe. Maybe one day. Okay. We don't get to talk about this often. Alleges that the security system was deliberately exploited and rather than share with the partners that this was true, that instead the two former Odeberg partners used it to find out in personal information about firm leadership. Well, we'll see if they get properly punished for that. Okay. Okay. All right. All right. You asked for, you really invited this with this story, you know. I've never discussed something that felt like this much of an HR violation.

20:35If you're listening, sorry, mom. so continuing the long national nightmare of law firms that have surrendered to the trump administration uh which we seem to talk about with you know some regularity around here the new york bar foundation which is part of the new york state bar uh it's one of its functions they were giving out awards and their awards gala paul weiss chair brad carp was speaking there were some protesters outside and within the ceremony itself while he was talking about pro bono work that the firm does a heckler spoke up and kept going for trump uh which you know uh so obviously lawyers aren't known for actively heckling in the middle of rubber chicken dinners uh but here we are i think it is interesting that it kind of transcended the propriety, the sort of outrage of what happened and what we're seeing in the industry kind of transcended that natural propriety.

21:38But I will also say that I wrote earlier in the year about a FedSoc event that I went to to write about where they talked about those deals. And there was heckling as well. There were kind of call outs. George Conway was one of the panelists and, you know, people were definitely trying to, you know, do an audience participation moment, which was more of a, you know, it was more of a conversation than an award show. So it's a little bit less shocking to the system, but it is really, it's a sign of 2025. It is interesting. Like I'm increasingly trying to put my, you know, dissociate from what happened and try to think in the moment and try to think about like what what they all must have been thinking when they made these deals and i i i do somewhat feel as though especially given how unsophisticated the deals are they were just pounded out on true social and they seem like largely unenforceable garbage i i really do wonder if like the transactional lawyers among those firms just said, this is great.

22:49We basically gave up nothing. We basically aren't committing to anything. We're fine. They're like, we're geniuses for getting out of this. And just no. I mean, certainly they must have thought that. Yeah. And just no conception of the way in which what they did was compromising everyone else in the industry. Yeah. And, you know, giving the administration a win. Let's be clear, the executive orders that or the threat are not a win. They are been consistently and routinely struck down by courts anytime they've been challenged. And it seems, you know, it's likely to continue. They in and of themselves are not a win, but these deals were wins for the administration.

23:30And all we've seen is the further erosion of the rule of law, the way that, you know, anytime a career prosecutor says, hey, there's not enough evidence to go after your political enemy, Mr. Trump. And they're like, good news, fired. You know, all that kind of vibe is created because he's bullied by the wins that he had very early in his administration because these firms capitulated. Yeah. You know, so I just had a musing about news that is kind of quasi breaking or broke right before we really started getting into this. What? I'm hoping this involves Bubba. No, no, this one does not. However, you talk about how the challenges have been all successful to these executive orders that were clearly illegal.

24:19I wonder if Perkins Coie's decision to merge – to sign off on a transatlantic merger with Ashurst is going to implicate how that works out in some ways. Because we've already seen there are cases that the Trump administration – that the Trump administration allies absolutely lose that they turn around and try to keep going on. I mean we see that Michael Flynn, who pleaded guilty to the crime that he did, is going to get$50 million in taxpayer money from us because they're going to try to pay him off on the side. Like, even though they have lost here, are they going to try to do something to kind of mess with Ashurst or will Ashurst and Perkins settle in some effort to grease the rails for this new entity?

25:07I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I have to imagine that the fight with the administration was a large part of what they talked about when they were considering the merger. Was Perkins Coie even looking for a merger partner if they hadn't been attacked by the administration? I'm not sure that that's true. But I have to think that – I guess it hasn't actually been approved by the – it's going to a vote to the partnerships of the two entities now. But I have to think that you know you're going to be fighting the administration if you're an ass-hurst partner. Yeah. Right, and you vote for this.

25:42That's what that means. That is sort of the firms that have fought have gotten a lot of praise, and I can't imagine them going back on it at this point. But then again, I did not imagine that Paul Weiss was going to ink a deal with the administration, and that is in fact what happened. So I could be wrong, but I do think that Perkins Coie is very much linked now to fighting the Trump administration. And whatever benefit you think you're getting from merging with this known entity is severely different and hurt if they no longer are fighting the administration in that way. Because I think that is the brand right now.

26:20Question about the – for Donald Trump reception, if you're aware. Was the crowd response and then everybody clapped? Or was it like a, hell yeah, keep on insulting more? you know because because my thought would have been like because a thing that came to mind a friend of mine for some reason is uh what re-watching frazier and there's one point where um somebody says i think maybe to frazier but they're like you're so spineless the only thing that keeps you up is the starchy in your shirt and i'm like saying donald trump repeatedly is cool but there are there are more ways to dig into what happened so i was just wondering how the how it was received in the moment i mean obviously we weren't there but the uh the the the folks who were seemed to i mean it seemed like it was awkward but awkward in a way that was resonated enough that the story got out so yeah yeah and i actually think that it was necessary and i think that it would have been a story for above the law had there not been a heckler right because i think that it was really kind of stark and questionable to give Paul Weiss this award this year, right?

27:29Right. Well, and so the structure of this award, so like a lot of these kind of big awards, there's an element of it of the firm puts in money to the foundation and gets to have an award. But also in this instance, the actual award's going to Loretta Lynch, who is a partner there, who obviously was a former attorney general. And so that's kind of the argument. and the work that she's been doing is what actually was being honored. And that sets up the juxtaposition that we've written about a little bit elsewhere of like, Paul Weiss has this longstanding tradition of good public works and pro bono.

28:08And it is interesting that they went down this road. But it's also, you know, I think you mentioned this in a recent piece. When you think about it, because they were first, They had the smallest amount of money that they owed the Trump causes, and the amount in question was a real drop of the bucket compared to their actual pro se budget. So going back again to the argument that people thought they weren't really giving up much. I don't know. Well, they gave up their reputation, which actually is probably worth more than that amount of money. I mean this is what happens when you get a little too technical for things.

28:41This is why we hate lawyers. I mean, it is a good study, and this has been a big part of the story, is kind of the litigation versus transactional dichotomy and what you're thinking about and how you assess risk. But I don't think that the folks who approve these thought about the reputational cost. Well, we've been going on for a while, so let's move along here. Let's thank everybody for listening. You should subscribe to the show, get new episodes when they come out. You should leave reviews, stars, everything, help us out. you should be listening to the jabot katherine's other podcast i'm also a guest on legal tech week journalist roundtable you should read above the law so read these and other stories before they come out follow things on social media it's at you know above law.com over at blue sky it's atl blog at twitter i'm at joseph patrice on twitter and joe patrice on blue sky the others are at katherine one and rights for rent on both of them and yeah that's our show this week we will talk to you soon peace peace Thank you.