Nothin' Says Lovin' Like A Benchslap

0:28Hello, welcome to another edition of Thinking Like a Lawyer. summit, you know, another fine program from the Legal Talk Network family of programs. So I'm here. It is the middle of a major sale in this whole city. The whole city is going on discount, apparently. Yeah, apparently when you have no tourists, you start cutting prices. It's great. Yeah, well, great if you're traveling there, I suppose. Less great if you are living there and or dependent on things like tips. But, you know, here we are. But, you know, they're not getting taxed. So I mean, in theory, I mean, at least, you know, you're right.

1:06There are bad actors in this world. I'm going to continue tipping the same. I'm just going to pay the lower price. Yes, sure. But I mean, the sale is motivated by a lack of just volume, which affects tip workers particularly hard. Right. Yeah. Now, apparently it's down close to 12 percent from last year, and it was already pretty much down. Tourism was already down before that between COVID, sports betting becoming legal, the city nickel and diming people in ways that the city never used to. And now not letting foreign people come to the country has really taken a hit. Yeah, that's a recipe for not good things.

1:49I'll tell you that. Speaking of recipe, what's Vegas's buffet scene like? Have you seen any nice buffets in your stay? I mean, I've not done any this time. In the past, I have done them. But I mean, they're out of control. I mean, when I was young, they were all like 10 bucks. And that was the thing. You could get not so great food in huge volume shoveled on. Now, I saw a cheap one that was 50 bucks. Like, yeah. I mean, it's just everything is expensive. Even like I will say that my hotel, the official rate of my hotel is not. But then they tab they tack this luxury resort fee on top of everything.

2:30So the luxury resort fee is money multiples more than my actual hotel rate, which I got a one night comped. And then the second night's theoretical rate is thirteen dollars. But that is pretty low, even with a resort fee tacked on. But the resort fee is seventy five or so bucks a night. I do want to say one thing. This is following up to my small talk from last week's episode. Just because while I do occasionally talk on my ass, I try not to. So I was curious to see what Stephen Colbert's immediate response to the Jimmy Kimmel suspension was and what Jon Stewart's was. I prefer Colbert's. I felt like Colbert did a better job of facing what was happening straight on.

3:16There was a bit where Jon Stewart's segment, still good. I think he came in on a Monday in the context that he normally doesn't. But his was more like jokey and also frayed out some of the responsibility with his cast of like people who are also on the show. With Colbert, it was just him. And metaphorical hats off to Colbert for that. That was bolder than I expected of you. Jimmy, what's his name? Jimmy Fallon, though? His was ass. Fuck that guy. He did exactly what I thought he was going to do. Just a corny sidestep of the issue. The laugh inappropriately, that's pretty much what he's known for.

3:52Yeah. Well, I mean, the reason why Colbert was so good at the satirical right-wing character was because he is really pretty sharp. Like playing that playing that character was because he was so good at what he did. And now that he is kind of hats off, it works a lot better. Yeah. All right. Well, is that everything for our small talking? We should probably get to our topics. Sure. I mean, this is a pretty good segue anyway. OK, let's do it. What is our first topic of the day? It's one of your stories, Joe. It's the top story of the week. Perkins Coie's hiring and firing employment decisions. Yeah.

4:33So Perkins Coie is noted as one of the firms that is fighting back against a retaliatory executive order. So they have been kind of on the on the good, you know, on Santa's good list for a while here because they're thinking. ATL's good list. I love it for us. Yeah. The ATL Santa good list, as opposed to firms who made deals with the administration to get out of these largely unconstitutional attacks, Perkins Cooley's been fighting back. So that's been good. But the problem last week was we learned that they fired a associate, although I think I heard another report he might have been elevated to counsel before being terminated.

5:14But a senior lawyers who they had written glowing things about in the past, this firm, as part of their marketing materials, they terminated him over Charlie Kirk comments. And obviously there are people in this world who said really awful things after that. But there's also a lot of people who said really reasonable things. This appears to be in the latter camp. All the associate is accused of saying is basically, you know, this is a horrible thing that happened. But also, let's not, you know, elevate Charlie Kirk to sainthood because of insert all the awful quotes of things that he actually said in his life.

5:58But that was apparently enough for Perkins Coie to fire him, which is deeply troubling, although, you know, cynically, I think I understand it. I think they want to keep their heads down and focus on their fight against the administration without introducing new distractions. I mean, to me, that is sort of the the one aspect that I don't I don't necessarily say that Perkins Coie gets a pass here. But there is something about being a high ends lawyer that you have to have a fair amount of discretion. And I think that somebody who works at the firm is very aware of what the firm is trying to do, calling attention to themselves in their personal capacity in this way displays some discretionary concerns.

6:44I don't know. I mean, maybe, but I don't think they I mean, I see what you're saying on another level in that, you know, that you know that this administration is trying to shut down the firm. You know that they're going to use and make mountains out of every possible molehill they can find to further the attacks on the firm. And in that world, perhaps it's a smart media strategy for all the lawyers to say nothing, even if it's entirely benign and reasonable. And that makes some sense, but only if that's been communicated. And we don't necessarily know as though these conversations had happened.

7:24But if the firm wants to have a conversation with all lawyers, hey, we're in the fight of our lives right here. So even though we don't think we don't think anything you're saying is wrong, you just can't say anything right now. Preemptively, I could get on board with that. But as a response, like I really disturbs me as a response on the back end. Yeah, I mean, I think you're right. And I think there's a disturbing conflation between celebrating and not actively mourning, which are different responses. And just because some and I think that because the Perkins Coies is not the other one. There was a law professor who also got let go or suspended while an investigation is pending in Arkansas.

8:09And they're not the only ones. There's hundreds of teachers around the country that have been suspended, not just for things they said on social media, but personal conversations. You know, it's it's very witch hunty. You know, time very well with spooky season, I suppose. But I don't know. There's this disturbing conflation between saying that people are celebrating the death when what they're really doing is merely not mourning him. I will quibble with that because I don't think it's not mourning. I think it's not not engaging in the hagiography. It's not engaging in the elevation to sainthood, which involves scrubbing lots of quotes that we have actual video of.

8:50I think The Onion did it best with The Onion magazine cover being like Charlie Kirk, not in his own words, where they were like glowing tribute by choosing things he didn't actually say because it seems better in the moment. That it is an interesting parallel. Well, conservatives are attempting very strongly to make this their corollary to Martin Luther King, which is horrifying and awful. But I do think there's an interesting. Depending on depending on whose theories you're going with, both men were outspoken and killed by the state. But that's neither here nor here. Right. If we go with that sort of conspiracy world.

9:26But I actually think there's an interesting and I don't I haven't really hashed it all out in my head, but an interesting parallel that does exist. not the ones that they're talking about, where I think there's something to be said for the price of Martin Luther King's elevation in the public consciousness, which brought a lot of good things. But the price of it was the kind of whitewashing of a lot of his work. There's a reason we hear I have a dream a lot and not all the things he said about capitalism and what it does to poor communities. Right. So a lot of that got scrubbed as part of that elevation.

10:04And kind of the reverse side of that coin is going on here. There's this attempt to elevate Kirk by wiping the record of all the incredibly awful things he said and trying to pretend that he was just some kind of mainline conservative, which is not the reality at all. And you've seen that mostly on social media. The mainstream media doesn't seem to be pushing back against these claims. But in social media, whenever somebody people prominent people keep popping up saying you made up this quote that he said, and it's and you look in the replies and it's hundreds of people dropping video clips of the quote.

10:43But there's just this effort to scrub, scrub all this. I don't know. It's part of that process in kind of a twisted, perverted way. Well, on your point, as far as the whitewashing, I think to go further, part of the biggest thing that I'm seeing is him trying to force down our minds that he was a debater or like committed or like actually committed to the free exchange of ideas. Because like just fresh on my mind, the exchange that was happening before he was killed was him doing a series of like red herrings. Like there was one person that was like, oh, are you familiar with how many like mass shootings there have been?

11:21And his response was not to that directly. It was, well, are you considering gang violence, which was a way of like redirecting the intention of the question? Like, that's not good form in debate. Like, because it's not like it's not like there was an assumption. It was like, oh, he's going to say, if you are factoring in gang violence, it is X. If you are not, it was Y. What was happening was here's the point where I dunk on black people and there was applause. right like debates debates debates are the sort of things where like a person asks a question and you get roaring applause but you get that when you're like farming clips or openly doing sophistry he was a sophist he wasn't a person that was actually encouraged in a dialectical means of discovering truth and as people talk about him as being a person who was an advocate of free speech sure like in the same way like what rush limbaugh was like no he would just speak into the right wing base and giving them talking points that they could use when they talked to their trans uncle or cousin at at the thanksgiving table none of this had to do anything with the pursuit of knowledge or virtue it was about making money like he was a millionaire off of this this was his job it wasn't his pursuit of knowledge yeah the the the whole point about debate is really important because he did posture himself that way and people are trying to claim that that's what it It is obviously the three of us all have very strong feelings about that particular activity.

12:46It is not debate. He didn't even go for a cap or tea. Right, yeah, yeah. No, but it's a good joke for the few people out there who are going to get that. But I saw one person on social media who I thought put it really well, which is it couldn't be debate because it was an asymmetrical relationship. It was a person on stage with a microphone talking to people, and the person in question had some history doing stand-up work and said, ultimately, I realized after a while what it is is it's not debate. It's crowd work. This is crowd work. Yes, yes. It is disingenuous to pretend that that's actually a symmetrical debate relationship anyway.

13:29And further, the few debates that he did actually have that weren't just like fresh college students, he got his ass beat. I think there was a debate with like, I think it was over in Oxford or something. They handed his ass to him. So if you do want to talk about him as being a debater, he wasn't a good one. And at Oxford, they do the British parliamentary style. So, you know, I mean, he's losing to Parley kids. It's just unacceptable. That is a better niche joke. I respect it. Yeah. All right. Well, for our next segment, Judge Christina Silva is tired of the bullshit. Okay. There is a bench slap, which is, you know, an ATL term for a very harsh admonition by a judge to an attorney, to a Pillsbury Winthrop partner over what she called his unchecked, quote, entitlement over the course of the trial.

14:27It was the straw that broke the camel's back was whether or not the particular witness was traveling or available on a particular date and time. that they had asked. And the partner question said, you know, it was a poor choice of words and communicating and that he was saddened and shocked by the judge's order to show cause. But as the actual order comes down, Judge Silva was having exactly none of that and turned his words against him saying that she was in fact saddened and shocked by his behavior over the course of the trial, which said it was a really problematic and she chalked down to chalked up to his the only logical explanation for his conduct was his entitlement.

15:15Did you buy did you buy her take? I mean, listen, you know, she's the one who's living it, right? You know, there are certainly some a lot of it's, you know, sort of the in the course of a trial. Like, what did he he doubled down on whether or not the witness was actually available? He, you know, said it to the to the prosecution and then he turned around to the government and he turned around and repeated it in court. He, you know, did other kind of that kind of stuff where, you know, whatever. But she certainly she certainly is well and truly fed up. I'm just disappointed that the day that I don't have access to my soundboard, we had what But where did this person work?

16:00Pillsbury with her.

16:04Let's be honest. Was that sound on your soundboard? Because if it has been, and you've been holding that back for me and our listeners for these years, I swear to God, Joe. We need more stories about Pillsbury. Pillsbury doesn't come up enough. No. But, you know, in in partner's response, talked about his profound respect for the judicial system and all of his previous professional experiences, clerkships, time with the DOJ, time in big law. And Judge Silver was like, yeah, that's what makes this worse. Wow. Well, nothing says loving like a bench slap in the oven. Okay. Okay. But what I think is interesting is how much entitlement do you actually, I mean, I think that like entitled is probably not an odd characteristic for a big law partner.

17:01Probably. I think that's fair. But how bad does it really have to be for a judge to call you out? And like, I mean, she was like, Merriam-Webster defines entitled as like, I mean, like pull, I mean, talk about like debate flourishes. I'm taking. I'm deducting points from her for that one. That trope can only be used if you're trying actively to parody it. I personally prefer Urban Dictionary as far as the meaning of words. Like if you're in Gavel, if you're enrolled in Gavel, you have the authority to cite silly things like Seuss books to make your points. Yes. I think that I hear you that it is very much a worn trope to quote Miriam Webster's.

17:49But there's something just about like laying it on super thick when you're when you've had enough of the bullshit. You know, this is really a way to be like, we I am done. I am done with you. It felt like the judicial equivalent of your mom.

18:09Oh, that's fair. That is not unfair. I just think it was, listen, bench slaps, I think, are always really fun to have. And it's really been a staple, I think, of above the law since basically the inception. You know, the term bench slap was originated on the pages of above the law. And I believe Black's Law Dictionary now includes it. They included, I think, three witticisms that Lat coined in the early days of above the law. I think. Need to check that. What I think you meant to say was Black's Law Dictionary defines bench slap as. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But this, I think, is a really a classic of the genre because I think that entitled and entitlement can really, it's a big house that can hold a lot of problematic behavior over the course of a trial.

19:01Black's Law Dictionary defines bench slap as a judge's sharp rebuke of counsel, a litigant, or perhaps another judge. There you go. You actually, I like that. I like that you found that. It was added to the 10th edition of the dictionary. Well, there you go. Part of the proud above the law tradition is enshrined in Black Law Dictionary. So for our last segment of the day, we all know amongst the various things that this administration has done, They put a cap on how much federal loans you can take out for professional degrees, like a law degree. They've capped that amount at$50 ,000, which is less, less than the amount, the sticker price of most law schools.

19:51But Santa Clara law is doing something about that and is guaranteeing$16 ,000 worth of scholarships to everyone moving forward in their class, which will actually take the price of the tuition below that $50 ,000 mark. So the full price can be covered by federal loans. So that is great. I think it's interesting the whole what is this going to do to the legal profession, capping the federal loan amount. Obviously, private loans will still be available for people who need to finance the other$50 ,000 in one up. That is certainly true. But those are not – those have a lot different interest rates associated with them.

20:42Right. At the end of the day, tuition is too high and something needed to be done about it and yada yada. But this is not the way that that's going to happen because, as you pointed out, the schools can still get most of the money that they need by just making everybody take out private loans. And what that does is shifts the demographics of the class to people whose parents were already rich lawyers, primarily have access to those loans or can pay out of pocket, and everybody else finds a different profession. They all go into investment banking or something like that, which, you know, probably would have made us all a lot more money anyway, but is less good for the society.

21:21Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, just other sort of statistics that are part of this story to noodle on to potentially talk about. 76 percent of law school law students take are taking out student loans in order to finance their education. And the average debt once you graduate is I think it's one hundred and forty seven thousand dollars. So and that includes but that is the 24 percent that aren't taking out any federal any loans. Right. So those people are at zero. So I mean, a lot of people are taking out more than fifty thousand dollars a year currently. And the current or the previous law was that you could have federal loans for the full freight amount, whatever that would be.

22:01So there's going to be a pretty stark change. And I think you're right. And I think part of part of what Santa Clara is talking about and their statement about issuing these loans is that they are very committed to making sure that everyone has access to legal education, that just because you can't get federal loans, it shouldn't be the determining factor of whether or not you become a lawyer. So I think that that is a very great thing, I think, that they're doing and a statement for what they want the profession to, you know, if they wanted to, they would. There's lots of stuff out there. And we'll see kind of how this winds up shaking out 10, 20 years in the future when we get the results of these classes and the actual impact is assessed.

22:50A bit of how the sausage is made. So in case any of the viewers listening wonder how we usually come to the three or four stories we talk about. We look at the stories that over the week had the most traffic. The fact that I think that this story made it to the podcast is super interesting because, one, it was a quote of the day. Usually the things we talk about during the podcast are like the main main line stories that actually get written up. And two, it's Santa Clara. Like it is not Yale by any means. So the fact that like a law school that's ranked like what, like 156 deciding to give their incoming students another 16 ,000 in response to the administration is big enough for us to give a damn about.

23:33I think also speaks to the moment of the times we're in, like how thirsty people are for additional funding considering the cuts that were made. Yeah, that's an excellent point. Yeah, no, it's really true. And yeah, and it went gangbusters over the weekend. Like people not and it wasn't like huge, huge traffic, but it was just a steady stream of people checking it out because I think people are very worried. And I think it's also how is Santa Clara kind of the canary in the mine? There are plenty of law schools that are in very, very secure financial positions, even though, you know, some of them are certainly fighting the administration.

24:09But there are plenty of law schools that are pretty secure financial positions that have the ability to do this sort of thing and are suspiciously quiet. Right. I think in a normal context, if Santa Clara was giving full rides, I don't know if we would like give a damn. So this 16000 isn't being amazing. I think it's hilarious. I mean, there is some a lot of the bigger like back, you know, years ago, law schools basically didn't give out scholarship or they gave out little things here and there or whatever. But like the idea of getting like huge chunks of money from law schools was foreign back in like the 80s.

24:45And it has steadily gone up with increases to tuition. There have been more discounts and breaks all over the place, which has made the figuring out the actual sticker price a little bit weird. So I think there probably are other law schools who are reacting to this with different discounts here and there, not necessarily calling them scholarships, but probably much more individualized and not advertising them as across the board. I think that that's true. So there are definitely, I think, schools who are making plans, do things on an individualized basis. But I think there is something to be said by having an across-the-board policy about who's going to have access to that information, who's not even going to bother to put in applications or think about law school because they think that it's beyond their financial means.

25:31And I think that Santa Clara should be commended for making it clear, getting a lot of publicity because they're making this decision. Yeah. Yeah. Back when we were having debates about whether or not to relieve student debt, that conversation was happening. There were people who wanted to put a bunch of strings and qualifications on it. And some folks said, just forgive all of the debt that's out there. And people said, well, then you'd be paying off rich people. And the answer to that question was maybe, but probably not. Like those folks probably didn't have debt. The people, you know, if you make an across the board declaration like this, it's going to end up where you're not really you're not really doing a huge giveaway to people who don't deserve it.

26:16It usually works out. And so to that end, a more blanket policy is not only good business sense as far as showing your commitment to the entire potential pool of applicants, but it isn't going to hurt you on the back end either. Yeah. All right. Is that it? I think that's it. I think it is it. And this should have been small talk, but apparently the rapture is on the 23rd. Oh, that's again? So maybe nobody will even hear this. That's what I'm saying. So one, thank you so much for listening to Above the Law, Thinking Like a Lawyer. If you've been left behind, thank you. Oh, yeah, yeah, that's true.

26:56If you've been left behind, thank you for listening for this long. And if you're left behind, listening to us might have been why you're not up there with your prayer. Thanks, everybody, for listening. You should subscribe to the show so you get new episodes when they come out. You should give us reviews. Listen to the jabot that Catherine hosts. I'm a guest on the Legal Tech Week Journalist Roundtable. There's also a bunch of shows on the Legal Talk Network, including Lunch Hour Legal Marketing, that you should be checking out. You should be reading Above the Law so that you read these and other stories before we talk about them here.

27:29You can follow things on social media at AboveTheLaw.com on Blue Sky. You've got at Joe Patrice, at Catherine One, at Rights for Rent. And with all of that, I think we're done and we will talk to you all next week. Peace. Peace.