3 Signs You've Hit Clinical Burnout And Should Seek Help | Dr Jo Perkins

0:00What does burnout look like before the person realises they're burning out? It's depletion on a gradual basis. Your capacity, capability, energy, and that can be quite subtle in those early stages. It's different to how you would normally be as a sort of baseline. It's not just I'm having a bad morning or a bad day or you can point to why it's happening. Things can feel more burdensome. Can burnout even make you think you're losing your mind? An ADHD person will try harder in response to inconsistent performance because that's what they've always done. that further compromises those limited resources.

0:32It feels like you're losing a grip. You just can't do the simplest things assuming you're the one at fault. What are the three biggest warning signs somebody is about to hit clinical burnout? There will be a few indicators quite likely. So again, everything... Can I have just a second of your time? If this podcast has helped you understand your brain or made you feel less alone, can you do me one favour? Can you hit the follow button? And I'll repay the favour by continuing to book the best and most exclusive conversations on this topic. Please enjoy the episode, and always remember, you're not broken, just different, and you have always been enough.

1:10Dr Joe Perkins, I am so pleased that I'm sat in front of a chartered psychologist talking about burnout, because it certainly had a huge impact on my life. In fact, I think it's put me in hospital in the past. But all of the advice that I see on the internet and other places about burnout, the advice isn't very helpful. It suggests to just have a rest and to take a break. But when you've got a mind like I have, I can't relax when I'm doing nothing because I associate doing nothing with danger and someone's going to tell me off for not achieving enough. The only way I can actually relax myself is by doing something.

1:53and by working, but often I don't have the energy to do that work. So it's a real problem that I've faced in the past. And we're going to talk about the three warning signs that I wish I knew before I approached severe burnout. But before we get to those, what do you think is the biggest misconception people have about burnout? I think you've, in your, you know, summary that you just gave there, Alex, kind of encapsulated it. It's the advice being that it's to rest because it suggests that it's about being a bit tired or merely tired. But that isn't burnout. So the misconception is that if you're feeling tired, a bit of rest will do it.

2:39But actually, burnout is much more severe than that. Burnout is that accumulation of chronic stress and pressure that's been happening over time so actually it's not about rest rest isn't the thing that fixes it it's it's also that another misconception linked to that is that it's because you're not working smart you're just working too hard it's not it's that you've been working maybe too hard in a particular way against conditions over a long period of time and you're not getting the rest and recovery so burnout is is distinctly different even if it's not experienced and noticed as different by us as individuals to being tired.

3:22So much of the advice is like, just take your foot off the pedal for a bit, have a break, lie down, try and get some sleep. But that is such a stressful thing for me to try to do because I feel like my nervous system over the years has almost taught that to do nothing is a bad thing. And I associate that with being lazy. And I wish I knew before what it might look like, what burnout perhaps might look like before I reach the point where I've entered a real crisis. What do you think burnout can look like before the person realizes that they're experiencing or approaching burnout? Certainly for someone, well, for anyone, it's depletion on a gradual basis of your resources, your capacity, your capability, your energy, you will find things just harder, more effortful, typically.

4:16And that can be quite subtle in those early stages. But actually, the thing that's important is that it's different to how you would normally be as a sort of baseline. And in ADHD, you know, brains and bodies, it can be more of the same, but exaggerated. So more executive function challenges so it can feel quite familiar but i think that what's important is that it's it's more pervasive it's not just i'm having a bad morning or a bad day or you can point to why it's happening it's a struggle to keep performing at the level that you're either expected to or used to doing because you can't access the same kinds of resource so everything just feels you know it's harder you feel more emotionally maybe short-tempered irritable things can feel more burdensome you feel more resentment at things that literally a few weeks ago would not have wound you up gosh yeah i mean it's so relatable and following on from that is burnout does it happen suddenly or is it a gradual process it can feel sudden but no the research would definitely kind of be a a cumulative based model and actually i see in practice and the experience is it's accumulation sustained chronic stress over a period of time when the conditions aren't changing so no it's definitely cumulative but it can feel sudden because if we keep overriding the kind of warning signs or if if things don't give us any respite the conditions don't change sufficiently that goes on over time and many people just hit their you know metaphorical wall and stop be able to function and that can look different for each of us that can literally be in my case for some of the clients I work with they literally cannot get up one day so that's quite extreme in terms of overriding the signals and then there can be I'm just not performing and then you know the impacts of that.

6:12So Joe if the end result is one day you wake up and you just can't get out of bed but before that stage there had been many cumulative moments and warning signs why do so many people miss those warning signs? I think there's a few different reasons. It's hard to decipher what's just general, having a day of being distracted, struggling because you've had a big weekend or there's more going on. Because often it just doesn't come out of the blue, some of those things. You can kind of go, yeah, well, I can point to that. I've got extra projects on or that thing's going on there socially or in my family life, or I've got this event that's happened or happening.

6:50So we kind of go, yeah, of course I'm feeling more tired or of course I'm struggling a bit because I've got less time available I've got more in my head more on my to-do list so we don't go oh I'm in burnout so I think it's quite subtle so we we don't stop and pay attention so we keep on going through but I think as well another key couple of things that I often see is that we're not all taught to tune in to some of those early warning signs so we can decipher what is a bit of distractibility and just um due to having had much sleep the night before or having a bit of an off day or you know an exacerbation of our adhd symptoms through to this is a bit more pervasive and this feels and looks different and it's happening across multiple situations so when we ignore that because we're not tuning in and knowing that that that feeling is is something else we keep going and so we we we benefit from learning how to do that but also another thing that's i think really important if we're used to showing up and having to do more and compensate you go into that rather than thinking oh what's going on we can assume particularly against someone adhd if you're being told that you should be trying harder and that it's your fault you take responsibility for that and keep on doing the things that you've always done to keep going and that actually is such a vicious cycle because that's just going to make it worse rather than going hang on maybe it's not me actually maybe the conditions are not conducive yeah yeah i mean i think you've hit the nail on the head i think many people with adhd they feel tremendous guilt when they do try to take a rest.

8:37In fact, it's almost like they take the path of least resistance. And the path of least resistance is to avoid rest, because that comes with the emotional pain, that comes with the guilt, that comes with a feeling of, I'm going to let someone down, I'm going to be told off. So they push through that, and they do more work, and that just perpetuates them through this cycle, which the end result is an approach to burnout, which can often lead to a point of real crisis. And often that might lead to them coming to see someone like yourself. And we were fascinatingly speaking off camera a moment ago, and you told me that in your practice, there's often a single sentence that somebody might say that if you hear that sentence, that rings alarm bells in your mind that that person is heading towards trouble.

9:26and we're going to talk about what that sentence is a little bit later on but firstly joe i mean how how serious can burnout become if it is ignored for me maybe it's about a step before burnout burnout will happen if we do not address the factors contributing to burnout so burnout has a way you know that whether that is that kind of can't get out of bed one morning because you managed to make it to that point and then come to a struggling hall or you stop functioning in the way that you need to so that is serious enough in itself obviously along the way the seriousness is the fact that people get ill it compromises our immune system we start to have anxiety mood effects physiological effects it can impair our sleep it can impair our relationships it can impair our confidence that has a knock-on effect on how we're showing up at work so it has many components and aspects that can all worsen over time and ultimately it can lead to long-term illness you know people being out of work because not necessarily the burnout has meant that they should be out of work but it can affect someone's confidence so much it can mean that they have got to a point where they can't face going into work because they became so depleted and actually being in a working environment for them doesn't feel viable.

10:55It was about six years ago, I was clearly with the lens of hindsight and awareness that I have now working through all of those warning signs. And as someone who is an alcoholic, that put me in a very risky situation because I didn't realise that with each warning sign that I was ignoring and each work commitment that I was saying yes to, I was actually teetering closer to that point where that internal conflict of I need to lie down, but I can't lie down because I fear letting someone down so much that it was almost like a catastrophic internal dilemma that I couldn't face. And I picked up a drink after many years of sobriety.

11:40And that ended me in hospital with a nurse looking down at me. She couldn't understand why I was there. And I tried to explain it. And I guess maybe there wasn't the awareness of burnout there. But that's where it led me. Do you know anyone who has gone through a cycle of burnout or experienced burnout to such an extent that it has such a massive impact on their life? Yeah, well, I mean, as you've just described, it's that pushing on through. And what I'll often say to my clients is, none of us know where that edge for us is any one time and it might not be as as far out as it has been on previous occasions so we often think we we know what we're doing we can safely if we're even having that conversation with ourselves keep pushing through it's inconvenient or again it feels like such a threat and risk to not show up in whatever way we feel we need to show up you know to show up at work and as you've mentioned it's not about stopping and having a rest sometimes it's about that perception of letting others down and prioritizing others over ourselves but again kind of trying to keep our our core self intact for fear of the rejection and letting people down that go with that but actually for me what's um important about the kind of getting to that wall people will i've seen have a complete change in what they do so you can hit that burnout in the extreme sense and wake up from that and go right now I've recovered which takes time and a process in itself and they'll say I'm going to change everything they'll change whatever things have got in the way that might be stopping drinking it might be changing a job it might be changing a relationship or how you're living where you're living it's so it can be quite dramatic in that sense yes I've worked with people that have just gone I'm not going back into the corporate world or I'm not going to do that job, creative or otherwise, because I need more stability.

13:34So it's about finding something that's a better fit. But that's kind of pretty radical because you don't just change your job generally. It's a whole sector for people if they're doing it at the extreme edge. The other version I would see would be that that could be a real wake-up call to acknowledging, actually, what's worked for me in the past worked. It is not what's going to work for me moving forward. And you can see the inherent risk in it because you don't have that luxury once you've hit burnout and going through that extreme experience to go well that makes sense anymore on the contrary it's hugely risky so that will often again it takes time and a process but it's looking at how you over commit where you overcompensate what you say yes to why what the costs are to that and once you understand your motivations you can find other ways that are safer more effective at living life but again it will be changing boundaries changing how you do things not necessarily believing and acting upon having to kind of keep everyone happy and not necessarily you know kind of adapting how you see your identity and how you need to show up in the world that that can be a profound change that someone would go through when they've got to that edge like oh maybe i don't need to be so extreme yeah it's so interesting i remember when i reached for the alcoholic drink you know after years of sobriety i remember that feeling so much it was absolute emotional numbness and i didn't see it at the time but looking back i can reflect and that's what it was there was almost like a fear of saying yes to any more commitments and i guess that was the tipping point maybe like there was one more thing that somebody asked me to do and there just wasn't the capacity to say no but I also didn't have the strength inside me not to say yes because I was so fearful of letting someone down yeah and it's it's a beautiful example of it Alex because isn't it because it's almost like you didn't have the skill to not keep going but it's the straw that breaks the camel's back it's One more demand.

15:43And you've ignored the warning signs, overridden, keep riding through the red lights. And then there's the wall. It's like, oh, I can't go any further. But it can feel, and that's where it can often feel quite sudden. Yeah, the warning signs. It's clearly not. The warning signs were there 100%. And there's three major warning signs that we're going to go through in a moment. But just first, talking about the straw that broke the camel's back, That was certainly the one for me. It was that one final demand of my time that I didn't know how to say no to. But do you think everyone has a breaking point, no matter how well they think they're coping?

16:22We're human. Computers have a capacity. They've got a memory. We are not beings that just keep digging deep. Instantaneously, we can develop capacity, develop resilience. but that is a process that that's when we're being intentional about it it's not just never ending and that's the difference this isn't about growing it consciously intentionally gradually like going to the gym it's it's it's like you can't just get up and walk you know 100 miles without any training your body isn't prepared for that so none of us know where that breaking point is for ourselves but um i do believe that everyone must have to have one And I guess that brings us nicely on the three warning signs that somebody might be aware of that would probably become visible or they might become aware of before that breaking point comes.

17:15So I think the three warning signs that everyone should be aware of, and the first one, your body stops recovering. Why can someone sleep all weekend, for example, and still feel exhausted?

17:29Dr Jo Perkins:Honey, what are you listening to? Mom! Your teen might not share everything with you, but teens share everything with each other. And certain everyday behaviors like sharing food, drinks, or kisses could mean sharing bacteria that can cause meningococcal disease known as meningitis. Although meningitis is uncommon, about one in ten who develop it will die. Ask your teen's doctor about missing meningitis vaccinations. Learn more at meningitis.com. Vaccination may not protect all recipients. Sponsored by GSK. this is one of the the kind of confusing things i think about burnout and some of the messages about i mean even if you can as an adhd person slow down and rest even if that were a possibility because your brain would shut off which it doesn't actually it's a misconception that rest is going to do it because you can sleep all weekend but because you're not tired it's that cumulative wear and tear build-up of depletion across all of your resources it's cognitive decline emotional capacity being compromised physical the arrest isn't going to do it because when we're just merely tired which we'll all experience you have a bounce back factor when you sleep when you're not bouncing back from sleep that's telling you something else is going on you know and often we'll have a holiday maybe where you might sleep for the first couple of days more than you would normally but then you again you bounce back and you go oh i'm recovered i'm now I'm getting it into the holiday.

18:55That isn't going to be happening over a weekend, quite likely, and it may not happen if you go on holiday. You know, again, I'll have clients that come back from their holiday and go, I didn't kind of hit that day three, got my mojo back. Yes. Well, yeah, because either you've kept on working or this is more than just being tired before going on holiday. Is it possible, Joe, to recognize if you're not bouncing back? Like, can you be doing all of the right things can you be taking the rest taking the naps and not even see that you're not bouncing back like the question is how can you tell the difference between being tired and your nervous system no longer recovering properly yeah so that there will be a few indicators quite likely so again everything feeling more effortful in a way that it doesn't usually and that being more cumulative so things felt like an effort yesterday and last week and but historically they haven't felt effortful you know doing the emails in the morning or feeling like you've got too many whatsapps to answer whereas normally that's just something you do on your journey home or when you've got five minutes that is a warning sign that you're not just tired again waking up and feeling still tired but physically heavy feeling a sense of dread and overwhelm what the day might hold for you again the irritability that you might feel when someone asks you to do something that again you know historically wouldn't have necessarily felt onerous or too much of a kind of stretch they're things that in isolation aren't a sign in combination that they're telling you things are feeling more effortful you're feeling more emotionally sensitive to being perceived as not doing good enough job or being competent and capable, feeling more anxious, you are doubling down on the compensatory behaviors.

20:51Those things in combination are telling you you're not having a bad day. This is not you. Something's not working. That's the difference between tiredness. Tiredness, we might be a bit ratty or tired or short-tempered for a day or a morning, but then we pick ourselves back up. We can laugh at something. Something will shift our mood. We won't feel anxious or angry when someone's asked to do something extra. the one extra thing that you think you see i just don't have capacity because it can feel so overwhelming i think it can be just the one tiny thing though that can tip you over the edge as i looking back you know before i relapsed that particular day i remember feeling so fearful of being invited to a party because i knew a i wouldn't be able to say no and b i didn't have the energy to go so again it was that kind of like stuck between a rock and a hard place and the outcome was, I guess, burnout and ending up in hospital.

21:49Now, the second warning sign, Jo, I think this is actually the one that catches people by surprise. You stop feeling like yourself. Is losing interest in things you normally love one of the warning signs? It can be. If we think about burnout being a cumulative deterioration, depletion of resources, you know um it would make sense that even when something we would typically enjoy or may make us feel more energized if that feels like everything is so much effort anyway and then to do that thing is going to be more effort that can mean that we start to lose interest or stop doing it the other thing can be actually if our mood is flattened and we're feeling quite anxious and depleted we don't really care so much about things our motivation is lowered so actually even the things that we know we like which is like yeah you know if we love cooking for example and enjoying a nice meal or going shopping for it the idea of all of that just feels all we see is the effort and and why bother i just want to do something simple so again it can often be a preservation of energy as well as not feeling the levels of kind of emotion and enthusiasm I will hear clients often saying to me they start cancelling stuff or they stop planning stuff and it can all look sensible and understandable on the surface because you go well it's just one week where they've done that and they had a deadline but then the day gets longer they're not doing anything for themselves and actually they're what i notice is happening it might look like quite a practical consequence they've they've not had the time to do something or they've deliberately decided to not do something but actually they're preserving their energy and resources to do the work or to do the things that they absolutely have to do you know parenting is understandable but it often means that there's nothing else left to give yeah it's not always as simple as you stop loving it there are variables and factors that mean you're not doing the thing you love and actually you're not loving much of anything at the moment so that can be a fact so you actually think that could make you feel better if that's going to the gym or cooking a nice meal is the very thing that you can't face doing because it just feels and more mental load even filling the shopping basket online just because i can't make a decision So, yeah.

24:16Before I reached burnout in the past, the things that I was doing because I genuinely loved them, they were always the first on the chopping board to get removed from my life. And I think on reflection, it was easy to stop doing those things because the only person I was letting down was myself. You know, if I didn't take my dog on a long walk or I didn't do that beach walk that I like to do, or if I didn't cook, no one was going to be let down or disappointed in me because of those things. So I really just focused my energy on doing the things that had a consequence of letting people down, which actually just pushed me faster into the burnout.

24:52The final warning sign, Joe, which I actually think is the scariest, one of the three. And I think this is the one that actually makes people feel like they're genuinely losing their mind. So the third warning sign, number three, your ADHD suddenly gets much worse. So why does burnout make ADHD dramatically worse? When we're in burnout, again, we think of it as being that depletion of resources. And ADHD, people already operating at the margins of compensating and using the kind of buffer, if you like, for doing everyday life stuff. The executive function challenges already require that bit extra.

25:35so that margin gets compromised that margin all of a sudden is it is stripped away which kind of reveals if you like more sharply your you know adhd executive functional challenge executive function challenges but also you've got that it's a cycle so things can be harder so it feels like we're being a bit more distracted struggling to focus manage time and organize ourselves and again and it can all feel more overwhelming. But also it heightens the emotional component so we can become more reactive, sensitive to those things and feel more open to criticism, more reactive to thinking, you know, why me?

26:21Why have you given me that? I'm feeling burdened. I feel anxious now you've given me that. You know, so again, it's not just a practical component. It also activates the ADHD emotional response. I mean, anyone in burnout will feel more emotionally vulnerable, but it's already playing in on those ADHD challenges that can be in play. But then, typically, an ADHD person will try harder in response to inconsistent performance, because that's what they've always done. It's like, well, I've got to try harder. So that further compromises those limited resources. so the overcompensation kicks in to kind of pedal back and meet the baseline.

27:06You've lost your margin and you're feeling more emotionally dysregulated so everything gets further compromised and heightened. It feels like you're losing a grip, sometimes clients will say to me, or that you just can't do the simplest things. Yeah, gosh. I was speaking to a woman who she said she has ADHD and she was telling me that she had just come out of what she thought was a big session of burnout that nearly cost her her marriage. She said that she never saw it coming. She works from home. She was sat at her desk doing her emails. She had kids that were running around being quite noisy and that was manageable.

27:48But then her partner came home from work, closed the door, sat down at the dinner table. They were eating together. And she said, actually, he was chewing loudly. And she said that was the catalyst that actually made her stand up abruptly. And she said she picked up her plate and threw it on the floor, like in pure rage. And she said, I want a divorce in that moment. And he was just absolutely taken aback, shocked. He didn't see it coming. He was really worried about her because it was very out of character. There was no indication or clues, at least from his point of view, that there was anything bubbling up under the surface.

28:27And yet at the dinner table that evening, it absolutely erupted and blew up in everyone's face. Can emotional dysregulation, can that be heightened? Can you be more sensitive to criticism as you approach burnout? Absolutely. Because, and actually what's interesting in that particular example, Alex, because I'm sure it may have surprised that person as well, you know, that that, and why would you not associate it with the fact that it's your husband and actually it's it's highly unlikely to be that i mean that might also be an issue but my hunch is that again a lot of people will talk to me about their head feeling like it's a bit on fire or fizzy or just really sensitive lights brighter so again that sensory overload so again the chewing that that you're you know person you're talking about and reacted to was probably again that straw that broke the camel's back for her that was just snap but actually if we're feeling like we're not doing what we're meant to be doing and we're really struggling despite how we're appearing to the outside world but it's taking more and more effort to stand still and do the same that's going to heighten our anxiety so we may be more hyper vigilant to people criticizing us looking for evidence and what it you know what it's like we'll find it it's like oh they weren't really impressed when i did that or maybe i didn't do that and again the overthinking that happens when you've done something left a social event or delivered a piece of work escalates so again that that can heighten the anxiety and then you can see the likelihood that you're going to be more likely to be criticized everywhere and want to avoid it So sorry to interrupt your hyperfocus, but I promise it's worth it.

30:16Our sponsor is Timo, the best organizational tool for neurodivergent people. Timo wasn't named iPhone App of the Year in 2025 by Apple for no reason. It's the ultimate planning partner gently helping you turn the chaos in your head into a day that actually feels doable. A day you might even look forward to. Timo is designed by neurodivergent brains for neurodivergent brains. And you can tell, it supports the stuff ADHD brains can find hardest. Managing time, planning what needs doing, prioritizing tasks, staying focused, and actually finishing the thing. And the great news is, Timo is now back on Android.

30:52The app on Android is still being built up to match the iOS experience with even more features in the works. So, if you're an Android user and you've been waiting to try it, you can now use Timo's core features too, including your daily plan, multiple to-do lists, and AI prioritization to help you figure out what to focus on first. Timo offers a visual way to plan your day without relying on willpower, memory, or a million sticky notes, helping you break down your daily agenda into something clear, calm, and actually possible. Give it a go and use the link in my bio for 30 % off. Just a note though, the code only works in the web browser, not in the smartphone app.

31:31Back to the episode. Many people with ADHD to combat that feeling of being different and having many early criticisms for perhaps being perceived as different by the world. They adopt a coping strategy, a protective layer that looks a bit like this, which is a mask. And do you think years of pretending, of putting on a performance, observing social behavior and recognizing what is accepted by the world and what is criticized, that extra layer of energy that the ADHD person is having to put out into the world simply to feel understood. Can that lead to burnout? Yeah. From a young age, we didn't know it was masking.

32:20You don't know what it is. We want to fit in, work out social norms. Someone with ADHD may be more likely to suppress what they are being told is too much not good enough try harder and hypervigilance scanning monitoring all of the time and that being a real skill but also being something that can tie us up in knots and actually that leads to the masking it's like oh that's how you show up in these situations but not like me so again your your your whole kind of identity is is wrapped up in satisfying what you believe at least is expected what is desirable what isn't and without realizing it it's about satisfying others or the environment again rightly or wrongly or in whether we get it you know accurate or not is another matter but it becomes a part of of existence really so it's unconscious a lot of the time until it's not but it takes a toll it costs something it takes energy it takes attention it takes cognitive you know energy emotional energy because if we're scanning and trying to prevent a risk situation we're constantly plotting and strategizing what do i do need to do differently again it's second nature so we don't know the toll it's taking but that accumulates over time and actually not only does that have a cost we're overriding our wants and needs quite often as a consequence so I'll often say to someone you know what might have contributed to where you're at right now and they may not even be able to answer it it's like well I wasn't good enough I wasn't doing enough but actually when you really get to it it's like what point would you have slowed down what point would you want to say no to that social event and they're like I don't know if I'd want to go or not it's just something you do isn't it as if it's the first time it's been suggested so there's a cost of not knowing what you like sometimes what what is going to drain you in advance there's a cost to not doing the things that might energize you and you know that you are going to get more satisfaction from so it's it's kind of you know really profound the effect that masking can have i used to think that burnout was something that perhaps happened maybe every six months or maybe every year, depending on what you're doing.

34:50But is it possible that burnout can actually be happening on a much shorter timeframe? Can it be like a daily occurrence, depending on what you're doing? One of the biggest lies I used to tell myself when I was running my businesses, that I could go to two meetings back to back and be okay afterwards. And actually on reflection, I think there was always this like daily period, perhaps between the hours of three and five, where I maybe had a little bit of a headache, very irritable, very grumpy, but I didn't see it at the time. So I pushed through it. But is it possible that burnout can actually be a daily occurrence rather than this thing that we think of happens over a longer time period?

35:28That would be a version of it. And I think it goes back to that point of burnout in itself is not, does not have a recognized, you know accepted diagnostic criteria because it's not something that we diagnose clinically um as such although it's clinically relevant so this is where the language you know maybe kind of you know you've got to be careful that we don't label things that might not be that but i would say that they are definitely examples of needing recovery so i think that where it's not a problem is if we're getting that one hour a day and we're not pathologizing that as being oh my gosh you're so lazy you know instead of saying no this is what i this happens every day it makes sense i've had that break and then you treat it as recovery give yourself permission to do it and actually that that isn't there and then getting compromised and compromised and compromised so i would say that if that would then be what would be leading to burnout for me that would just be kind of your body and brain needing that's natural recovery and it's all good if it's getting it where the problem will kick in and it will accumulate is if the hour is not available to you for whatever reason or you're not using it to recover because you don't recognize that you need it to recover so you put something else in and that's what i'll often see people doing they'll go oh i shouldn't be doing nothing i i'll take on more i'll start that project and you disrupt that that process of recovery so i'd say that it's recovery and when you don't let it be recovery or recognize it as being recovery that's what then becomes sustained cumulative you know sort of stress if you like on our system and will lead to the burnout speaking of recovery and really the most important question of the entire interview when should somebody seek professional help rather than just pushing through so again it will look different for different people but i would say if you are noticing that it's not just tired so you're not getting your bounce back and it's not temporary so we we will all go through periods of being overwhelmed and it can feel quite full on extremely overwhelming we may be struggling to sleep for a few days but if we then have some respite that will pass it's when that's not passing and actually we're feeling permanently tired, really struggling to do stuff, and we're not knowing what or how to change something, then it's good to talk to someone to say, well, what might that be?

37:55If you're noticing that your mood is actually changing, and you've got concerns about that. So if you're feeling higher levels of anxiety, and they're pretty persistent, and you're struggling to get those down, if that's becoming more obsessive. So again, it's not unusual for me, if I'm seeing a client that's going into burnout, where they may have had OCD, they know they've got OCD, but they've largely managed it but then they say oh in the last few months it's come back or their version of it has come back it's been active that's when you don't ignore that that's your brain going into overdrive so that would be a sign that don't ignore those things you're not it's not healthy or natural or normal to be feeling anxious at an elevated level all of the time so you don't have to suffer that so i would so the mood shift everything permanently kind of feeling harder and also if you're struggling with your confidence and self-esteem in a way that you haven't before you know and it's activating stuff that's kind of causing other issues in your life and you're maybe withdrawing more then it might worth talking to someone i want to move on to some real tangible tips on how someone can recover from burnout but before before that i want to go back to the question i asked you at the beginning and i said when clients come to you is there a sentence that they say that rings alarm bells in your mind that they are approaching trouble what is that sentence it's kind of being frustrating it could be different for different people in reality because actually i i think that's the the thing about burnout it is not the same for everyone in terms of how it shows up and what they may say will be you know their version of what they're noticing but it might be loads of other things going on but again a theme that I see quite a lot will be everything's going to be fine after having told me that they're you know feeling dreadful everything's a struggle stretched beyond belief when I get to that deadline or when that project's delivered or when this family situation is sorted or when that's out of the way and yet there's nothing actually that they're also sharing with me that that will happen after that event because you know there's something else coming down the line or that the other features are part of the the issue for them and what they're navigating that's always a worry because they're relying on optimism there's it's like this the fix is some future oriented place there's a finish line that you're going to get to and it will all be okay and then you'll be all right that that finish line in real life is really there.

40:35And actually, if there is a finish line and it's about a particular thing, that doesn't tend to be burnout. That tends to be, no, you're at a stretch because there's a project and that actually will get quieter when you've delivered it. So it's that distinction. And with your clients, what does the conversation of recovery from burnout look like? Because so far, the conversation has been quite frightening. Can burnout be reversed? yes yes i think that first of all burnout doesn't have to be an inevitability that's i think and actually stress and you know breaking through some of our comfort barriers is highly facilitative and can be positive so i don't want to be too alarming at all because actually it's great but again not when it happens too quickly or over a sustained length of time so for me what's really important is the burnout recovery is it requires depending on where you are at on the burnout severity it may require complete rest and rest may not be sleeping per se often it's about removing and stepping back from the kind of stimulation on your system the demand so for some people that will be at work obviously we can't step away from families if we're parenting but it might mean that you're sharing the load so you do need to kind of turn things down and step back and then you can start to recover and heal and that can take it's not it's not a weekend of sleep it's not one week's holiday it's it's time it's time and gradually building things up again it's like having a broken leg there'll be a period of recovery you take the cast off but it's going to take time to get fully back to strength what's the biggest mistake someone makes when trying to recover well i think the kind of thing that i will see a lot is that getting back into things too quickly it's underestimating the the kind of extent to which and the risks a bit like going on the broken leg thing you know if we've got a broken leg yeah you the cast is off feeling better you don't want to go out running for three miles or 30 miles that day you want to get used to gradually putting your weight on it until you're back to full strength so some people will just go i'm feeling fine now straight back into the same conditions if nothing has changed that's the other mistake so it's going too fast mistaking feeling a bit more energized as being back and being too optimistic about that and not really tuning in but also the um sense of not changing anything So if the conditions, whether it be the workplace or the family situation or a relationship, exactly the same as they were before, you'll burn out again.

43:25I've got a surprise for you just before we finish. Ways of worry. Yes. Okay, I'm going to get excited. Every ADHD Chatter guest writes a letter to the younger version of themselves. And then it gets delivered to the next guest, which is yourself today. So I'm going to deliver the letter to you. And if you could kindly read that, Jo. Thank you. So to my younger self, I know you think you're the problem. One day you'll discover that you were never lazy, broken or too much. Your brain was simply wired differently and nobody gave you the words to understand it. Please don't spend your life trying to become someone else just to fit in.

44:05Parts of you that feel different today will one day be your biggest strengths. Be kinder to yourself with love, your future self. That's beautiful. Wow, very nice tone to finish on. And really resonates with the burnout. It does. Because actually, stop trying to be something or someone you don't have to be. Absolutely. I think it's a letter to the previous guest's younger self, but no doubt it'll be a letter to the younger self of many of the listeners and viewers too. Absolutely. Thank you. On behalf of everyone grappling to understand their brain, Joe, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.

44:41Thank you for having me. you