5 Cleaning Rules That DESTROY ADHD Brains (and 10 that actually help you declutter)

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0:30Hester Grainger:If you're ADHD, your executive function level is about a 30 % deficit age-wise from a neurotypical brain. A 20-year-old, their executive function skills might be 30 to 40 % their age younger. So you're actually dealing with like a kind of 12-year-old, which is why you might have teenagers and you're thinking, why is this not working? You don't grow out of your executive function difficulties. I think you just find ways to manage it. Hester Granger is the ultimate ADHD coach. and viral sensation spreading her ADHD message to millions online. As an ADHD advocate and renowned public speaker, she is an expert in all things ADHD.

1:05Hester Grainger:Our ADHD brains don't have enough dopamine. Cleaning and sorting and life admin is really, really boring. So we can think of a hundred things as much more fun. The idea of little and often or doing a little bit every day is wonderful in principle, but I do think that there are better ways. Can that trigger like a shame response? Because you've kind of like not fulfilled a promise to yourself. I think there's two things there. you've got the shame of not actually doing it, but also the shame of... Huge announcement just before we start. Tickets to the ADHD Chatter podcast live theatre show are selling fast.

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2:08Hester Grainger:hester welcome back thank you thank you for having me you've been very busy since you were last here yes yeah i think it's been a couple of years now and i was on tour last year so i did 27 dates and theatres with a show called 8HD Unmasked and then I'm going to go on tour later again this year with a show called 8HD Unfiltered. It's been busy but it's good to be back. That's good. How do you manage the complexities, the stress of touring? Was that quite a lot? Do you know what? It was a lot but equally I've got an amazing husband Kelly. He was at home sorting the kids out, saw all the pets out so actually I feel slightly spoiled that I was just away.

2:43Hester Grainger:I could just concentrate on the show. Obviously I went home etc but I was kind of away for sort of you know 10 11 12 days at a time and it just meant that actually I could concentrate on what I was doing so I loved it I had like the best time I met so many people and I got to speak about ADHD every night on on stage so for me there was nothing better sounds brilliant and what was the state of the house like when you got back actually spotless was it yeah completely he runs a military yeah a military ship going on at home and yeah I would say Kelly is a lot tidier than I am but I don't like mess but I kind of can't help it.

3:19Kelly is your husband and is he neurotypical?

3:23Hester Grainger:So he is Kelly's autistic and ADHD and maybe that's why it's so immaculate because everything's got a place and he knows exactly what's happening. His own yin to his own yang. Yeah yeah exactly yeah but Kelly was diagnosed in his 40s as autistic ADHD so he's all ADHD and then I'm ADHD I was diagnosed in my 40s and then we've got two teenagers who are now 14 and 16 so truly neurodivergent house which obviously can be interesting and that's what we're going to talk about today we're going to talk about five cleaning hacks yes that don't work for neurodivergent brains but then also the really helpful part is like what does work yeah because i think there's so much like I'm an ADHD coach and I just hear this a lot from my clients saying like my house is a mess and then obviously if you've got a messy house it's a messy brain which then impacts work or your family and just kind of feeling that you can't settle when you're at home if your house is a mess so actually as you said with the five that don't work and kind of why because I think there can be this perception that you might watch some you know tiktokers going oh this is how you clean you have clean influencers which you were amazing but then you sort of think well why is that not working for me why can't i do that and if you've got a adhd brain like me there are reasons why yeah i feel like a lot of the neurotypical advice assumes that you have some kind of manager going on in your head and not just five raccoons with a whiteboard yes this is it if the raccoons have remembered the pen of the whiteboard because they may not have done or one of the raccoons broke the whiteboard but yeah i think this is it and that's the the point i think is really important is for people to not feel bad and wonder, well, why is my house a bit of a mess or why can't I keep on top of things?

5:06Hester Grainger:And I always say that actually, I think, you know, having ADHD, I find it really hard to be an adult. Like I'm 48 now and I just still find adulting really difficult. I have to do it and my husband has to do it. And, you know, we run our business, perfectly autistic. So we're really busy. And then we've got the teenagers as well who want to live in a nice clean house. If you go into my daughter's bedroom, it is spotless. It's, she's autistic ADHD as well and it's spotless and I think that's quite unusual with teenagers so I feel quite blessed but yeah I think it's just not having that shame that can be you know involved sometimes with your home yeah gosh I mean if shame was a motivator I think we'd all we'd all have spotless houses right yeah I think so but would we yeah I think we'd like to we'd feel the shame but actually the energy and the executive function etc might not always play out like that but yeah shame plays a huge part in it I think because everyone's got different cleaning styles right i suppose i think mine's like i'll just have a random burst of energy at an unpredictable time yeah and probably get a little bit done in some areas but then i'll just lie down yes for like four or five hours and that'll be my day done you're done can you almost when you're doing it can you almost feel yourself waning because i can kind of feel like you're like oh god the batteries are going to run out soon i'm scared of getting halfway through a task i've made more mess than when i started then the dopamine runs out and i'm looking at a wardrobe that is now in a worse state than when I started.

6:28Hester Grainger:I think that should be part of the diagnostic criteria. It's like how far along do you get with cleaning or sorting? Is it messier than it was before? Because you're right, it's that kind of get everything out and then you put on a random hat or something you found from years ago where you found this, that, and actually you've got completely sidetracked. Everything is in a mess and much worse, but I think the intention's there. So I think that's the difficult part because you want a tidy house, most people do anyway. Absolutely. Right, Hester, let's get into it. Okay. the number we're going to go reverse chronological order so we're going to start with number five yes a strategy a cleaning strategy that doesn't work for adhd why it doesn't work and then what does work instead yes perfect so the fifth tip that doesn't work is do a little every day like do you think that's a nice idea i feel like it's a nice idea and sometimes my brain feels like it's a nice idea but they forget or we forget that we have that agreement with each other this is it isn't it i think that's a lovely idea and that is the type of neurotypical cleaning advice you'd get isn't it sort your home out do a little bit each day keep on top of it like the amount of times i have the intention to hoover every day and i'm like we've just got a little whizzy round hoover for downstairs so hard floors isn't too difficult and then i'm like or i could just do something else less boring and i think the key point is we're lacking in dopamine our ADHD brains don't have enough dopamine and cleaning and sorting and life admin and whatever else is really really boring so this is the problem is we're lacking in dopamine so we can think of a hundred things as much more fun than doing that so the idea of little and often or doing a little bit every day is wonderful in principle and obviously with ADHD brains everyone's different aren't they so it might work well for someone I don't know anyone yet with ADHD any of my clients you go that works perfectly but i do think that there are better ways it's it requires consistent executive functioning and working memory right and otherwise you're just going to forget yes and this is it i think you've just hit the nail with the working memory as well so the executive function challenges if you're um if you adhd you've your executive function level is about a 30 % deficit age-wise from a neurotypical brain.

8:42Hester Grainger:So what I mean by that is you might have, let's say, I'm really bad at maths by the way, but let's just take a 20-year-old, right? Their executive function skills might be 30 to 40 % their age younger. So you're actually dealing, very bad at maths, like I said, with like a kind of 12-year-old, right? Which is why you might have teenagers and you're thinking, why is this not working? Or you might be a young adult. I personally think that actually you don't grow out of your executive function age and your difficulties i think you just find ways to manage it um and i think a lot of age hds feel much younger than they are and they feel quite carefree and actually executive function with the working memory like you said remembering that you had that deal and actually even if you do remember it there can be that slight pda of just going do you know what actually no and you kind of screw yourself you're a bit like well no I'm not you're telling me to do that I'm not going to do that yeah again I can think of more exciting things to do you're in such good mood when you do some cleaning if I if I hoover my flat if I take a vacuum cleaner around and it looks really nice and you're in that high dopamine state it's so easy to tell yourself I'm going to do this every single Friday at four o 'clock because that's worked yes but then Friday at four o 'clock comes around you're distracted by looking up the mating habits of blue whales on google and you forget to hoover or you just skip it yeah and But can that trigger like a shame response?

10:01Because you've kind of like not fulfilled a promise to yourself.

10:04Hester Grainger:Yeah, I think there's two things there. You've got the shame of not actually doing it. So as in now my house isn't as lovely and nice and tidy or my flat isn't as clean as it was. But also the shame of, oh, for goodness sake, once again, I haven't done it. I've not kept my promise to myself. And I'm sure you've talked about this before. But by the time you're 12, a child with ADHD will have received 20 ,000 more negative comments than their peers, their siblings, etc. whether that's you're lazy, must try harder, you know, stop fidgeting, tidy your room, it's a mess, etc. And I always say those people, those children with ADHD grow up to be adults.

10:39Hester Grainger:And that's why there's a lot of shame, a lot of stigma involved. So you've almost got the two different sides of it. You've got the shame of going, do you know what, I really can't be bothered. Actually, I really cannot be bothered. And then also the, I can't believe once again, I'm lazy. I hear this so many times from clients, I'm lazy. You know, I should just try harder. and when you actually unpick it all, there's so much going on and you're not lazy at all. It's just actually the following Friday at four o 'clock, you might have had an absolutely manic week. You're flat out, whatever, and you just don't have the energy for it.

11:11So what is the solution to this? What is an ADHD-friendly alternative? Is it rather do a little every day? Is it like wait until someone's due over in five minutes and then do it all at once?

11:20Hester Grainger:I was thinking about this. I was thinking my house is never tidier than when someone is going to come around in half an hour but you can trick your brain into thinking that so i fake pretend someone is coming around right fake pretend someone's coming over so i'll be like how do you do that you literally so i will say to kelly i used to do this before i had adhc not knowing and i'd say to kelly my husband right let's pretend someone's coming over in 20 minutes quite a small amount of time it's slightly like the pomodoro technique which we'll talk about in a minute but you so you just madly go for it for 20 minutes and I think what happens if you tidy over a long period of time and there is no end time to it it just takes ages because you're like well I've got two three hours so you will take two three hours to do it whereas if you go right I've got 20 minutes you know the quickest thing to do is pick up everything off the floor if you've got stuff off the floor or maybe do the laundry or wash up things that are really quick impactful but you pretend that someone is coming over and somehow sometimes that can just trick your brain into the dopamine kicking in but also put on some really good tunes like make it really fun don't because it is really boring yes even if you're neurotypical but some really good tunes quite loud and even have specific cleaning tunes that you know these are the songs that really get me going you know like people have running playlists yes have a cleaning playlist like come up with something that works that you are like i love this tune which is going to keep you tidying a little bit longer but you have to limit the amount of time and that's when you're most impactful because you're like bam bam bam the dopamine you got that focus yeah gosh who knew eminem could be such a motivator he's my sort of cleaning companion he'd love that see that's body doubling yeah as well isn't it which we'll probably talk about in a bit could you like artificially not artificially i suppose it's an expensive way to do it but could you force someone to actually come over um like could you order delivery um so someone's you know someone's coming in 30 minutes and you know they're going to see at least the porch or the inside i was just about to say do you invite your delivery person come on simon and you come let's sit down at the dinner table and have that nandes come and look at my sitting room um yeah i know what you mean though there is that there is that thing isn't there where actually you open the front door and sometimes depending how you know big or small your hall is you can see the mess i can you know you can see all the coats hanging on the banister or whatever so anything like that works but also I mean we might as well talk about body doubling now because that just made me think of it with a delivery driver but actually having someone with you might be a friend family member they don't have to actually do it and I used to do this with the kids when they were younger they were like old enough to tidy and to tidy their room but actually they would just be a bit bored and kind of go off task and so I would just sit on the bed I used to do this with my son and I would just sit on his bed while he tidied and not that I wouldn't help him or couldn't help him, but actually he could do it.

14:13Hester Grainger:He'd just get a bit bored. And even now, sometimes I'll say to him, if he's not doing anything, can you just come with me? Like I've just got loads of random bits to do around the house and will you just come with me? And he'll just come up and down the stairs. I'm delivering the washing. It's just like a buddy, just having someone that keeps you on track so that I'm not then, you know, the worst thing you can do if you've got ADHD is sit down. I can almost be like, I'm going to, no, don't sit down. Do not sit down because you know you're never getting up again. and it's just someone to keep you on track but body doubling or maybe with your delivery driver maybe that's a cheaper way to do it or maybe the fact that that's just a sign that i don't have any friends or buddies to call up so i have to fake one maybe you could be like don't bring me an andos just come down for a couple of hours and hang out this is all we need body doubling is fascinating it clearly works because i've heard so many people talking about it and i've experienced it you know my partner is in the room it helps you just get over that procrastination hump do we know how it works if i'm honest there is some kind of neuroscience that i'm not amazing with but i think it's the fact that it's someone there to keep you on track does that make sense why did it so i've been with my husband for 24 years now we've been married for 18 and neither of us knew we were neurodivergent but i would say to him i've got some really boring emails to do like i've got whatever it is it can be life admin oh my god i've got to renew my car insurance can you just like be with me while i do it it's almost like a hand-holding thing or if something really like i've got to go make dinner right will you come with me or he's like come on let's go make breakfast together like it's almost just having a buddy so there must be something in your brain that like i said i'm not a neuroscientist or anything that just kind of triggers that how okay actually someone is here and maybe then you're not going to be as distracted so they just keep you on track it makes a lot of sense like an accountability buddy in a way i suppose also you don't want to let the person down well exactly watching you empty the dishwasher yeah i don't want to let you down no i'm going to do this right now i've got the motivation let's let's get those plates out put them away and the thing is it sounds like doesn't it that everyone's just done and they're watching while you do all the cleaning or the cooking or whatever and that's not the case at all but i think sometimes actually you don't need the person to help you you just need that person to help you almost like say keep on the straight and narrow but kind of keep keep focused on what you're doing and they don't need to be in person do they they could be perhaps like on on a laptop screen just in silence while you go through your emails yes yes well that literally you can do i keep talking about this we've got a big um it's a group called norfolk women with adhd up in norfolk obviously where i live and we keep saying we need to set this up where you can just have someone that either you know on facetime or they're on zoom or whatever just keeping you on track you can do it with work as well but you can do it with you know sorting the house out and just you can either do the same thing at the same time but actually you don't need to it just keeps someone on track the other thing you can do as well which is really nice is message a friend or if you're part of like a community or a group or whatever and say right I'm going to set myself a bit of a challenge I've got to tidy my dining room or living room or whatever I've got to do this in an hour and what you do is you share photos so I say this to my ADHD clients quite a lot take a photo if you can and I quite often get them to send it to me of what the room looks like before and then take photo afterwards because visually you can then see the impact that it's had which i think is really important and it's also really good for you to remember how much you like this clean tidy room does that make sense because you forget what it looks like almost sometimes being tidy and it's really good for children or teenagers where you take a photo and go this is what it looks like it's almost when i say tidy your room this is what i expect it to look like if that makes sense yeah no it does absolutely i suppose object permanence in a way can make you forget about the the original mess and therefore the sort of the reward of it now being clean can disappear too yeah because you just you just don't see mess sometimes do you that's the thing you i did it the other day i was really laughing because i was like i kept seeing this phone charger on the stairs and i have to say we're pretty good in our house i'm probably the worst but it is it's not messy because i'm not great with mess every now and again i'm like okay this is like like let's have a tidy but actually things have got a place i think that's the key point but you're right object permanence out of sight out of mind can be really difficult so you even can forget cleaning products you can forget stuff but there was a phone charger on the stairs and I sort of walked past it and I kept thinking oh and then yesterday I came about coming to London today and I was like I need a phone charger sure there's one on the stairs and I picked it up and I was like that's why I left it there I knew it was going to come in handy but actually I think it's having the photos being able to identify it I think also removing that shame so actually going do you know what my house is in absolute state at the moment my kitchen is awful to a friend or whatever do you want to come and like you know be online with me whilst we do this together and get through it I always say like safety in numbers definitely it definitely works I've had loads of experience with body doubling you kind of just feed off someone's energy and the whole out of sight leads us on to the point number four quite nicely which is out of sight storage so we put stuff in a in a in a drawer in a cabinet in a cupboard close the cupboard thinking right that's it that's done um and then of course we just forget that it exists yes why does that happen so i was just gonna say really quickly before we get on to why when i was little obviously i didn't have ADHD i wasn't diagnosed till i was 40 uh 43 and i remember i'd get like a new school shoes or something and i used to put them at the end of my bed on the floor and I realized probably a year or so later that was because of object permanence if I put them in a cupboard I'd almost forget they existed right so there's just this real thing in your brain I don't know whereabouts it is that just we don't see it anymore so therefore it doesn't belong it's not real we can't it just doesn't exist okay you can do this with people as well which is why sometimes people find it really difficult to stay friends with people etc because they just don't live near they don't see them very often so in their mind the person doesn't exist anymore so when you've got items say for example i always think vitamins is quite a good example something that you need to take every day actually having them in a cupboard like somebody else would maybe neurotypical people that feels like it would work but we then just forget that the vitamins exist so what we then end up doing is having everything out that we need on the sides in the kitchen for example or visual somewhere but then the trouble is you then have lots of mess and clutter and it can feel someone can come in and it can feel quite cluttered so it's about having a space for everything it's about knowing that actually if i need to find that that is on that shelf in that cupboard and it's being because maybe you don't need it that much so sometimes i look at things and i'll think actually why is that on the side because i don't use it even every day so actually i don't need it out but i think there can be that worry that we're going to forget things.

21:00Hester Grainger:So you just put everything out, you leave everything out for that fear. Gosh, the vitamin pills felt deeply personal, Hester, because I have many, I know for a fact I have many out-of-date vitamin boxes in my cupboards. Like for me, it's like my cleaning has four stages, or it used to. I think it's like step one, panic clean. Step two, hide everything. Step three, forget where they are. Step four, buy them again. And I remember I bought all of my vitamins again, and I went to put them in the same cupboard only to find the original set of vitamins that i've just had to spend another 50 60 quid on yeah yeah and this is it there's you know the old adhd tax the cost of everything you know it's like a fake tax but the cost of rebuying vitamins because you put them in the cupboard and forgot or i will look in cupboards and be like i know there's a particular cleaning product in here i cannot find it so i'm just gonna buy it again there's that and then you look and you go hold on we've already got three of those exact same cleaning products i don't need the same and i think there's this perception isn't there that if I find the exact right cleaning product or cloth or storage solution my life is going to be perfect right oh my god it's going to all be answered all my prayers are answered and we know that's not the case and I think that's why it's really helpful to understand your brain understand what works but take away that shame I'm always talking about being kind to yourself and being kind about yourself and I think that is what understanding ADHD and your ADHD brings is the kindness.

22:21Hester Grainger:So actually you don't then beat yourself up about it when you have forgotten that those vitamins are in there or something random is in a cupboard. But I think it's the whole object permanence and out of sight, out of mind. You have to bear that in mind because actually, otherwise you are going to constantly keep buying vitamins or whatever it is because they're just, you know, it's okay. As long as everything's got a place, it's when lots of things are everywhere. That's when the problem starts. yeah no definitely i think my memory and i have an agreement now which is like my memory says do not rely on me i will not succeed you will not remember that this new thing you've just bought is in here because you just forget about it literally you shut the cupboard it's the same when you write things on a notepad so if you wrote like a cleaning schedule out on a notepad the minute you shut the notepad that list no longer exists you have to have it open you have to have it on a whiteboard maybe with or without the raccoons you mentioned earlier you know a clipboard on the fridge, something like that, that's then open and then you can see it.

23:15Hester Grainger:So if you are going to write down a cleaning list of things that you want to do, actually make sure it's there because that object permanence is going to kick in as well with lists, etc. on notepads. A quick word from our sponsor. We've all had that nightmare. You're on that final warning from that friend. If you miss their birthday again, your friendship is over. Finito. And you do miss it. Even worse, you miss their wedding and you were giving the speech. The speech you forgot to write. I can change, you plead with them, and they say, no, you can't. Well, actually, you can. How? Teemo app. That's how.

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24:25Back to the show. So, for this point, what is the solution? Is there a solution? Is it just a case of keeping everything visual?

24:32Hester Grainger:Yeah, do you mean with object permanence? With stuff that you want in your life, but you don't want to put it away. you don't want to put it in that cupboard because you literally might risk forgetting that it exists i think it's perfectly okay to have it out as long as it is as long as there's a place for it i think what then happens is people then think actually do you know what i'm going to buy some more storage solution because that's actually what the issue is and actually it might be that you've got so many things and it's that's not the issue at all so you probably need to have a bit of a clear out but actually it's perfectly okay to have certain things out like vitamins that you know you're going to need to take every day and you're just going to forget that they exist but I think the problem happens when you then the vitamins are not where they normally should be on the sideboard they have somewhere else and you've moved them and that's where they don't live and then that's when your citron becomes a mess because you just keep putting everything in there because you're worried you're going to forget everything yeah so is it like you're keeping things like the vitamins at the location of where they are used yes so for example you need water with vitamins so you probably need them in the kitchen where it's near the glass where it's near the water but also don't forget that maybe actually your routine is to take your vitamins first thing in the morning so actually would it make sense to have them by your bedside table so when you wake up in the morning that's the first thing you do it's about creating routines that work for you even if they maybe look a bit strange to other people doesn't matter does it no one else is going to know but actually if that's where you take it if you have your vitamins or maybe you have them last thing at night so again maybe it's you know in the bathroom as you're doing your teeth next to your toothbrush or it's by your bed whatever works for you I think it's going through your house and thinking how do I live my life what works what doesn't actually like we rearranged all our cupboards a little while ago because I was like the I think it was Kelly was like the dishwasher there and the glass is there and but actually we take the bread out there to make sandwiches for my son and then the plates like it just didn't flow so kind of think about how you live your life or is it that you actually take your vitamins at work so do you have your vitamins in your desk at work or in your work bag or whatever works for you i think that's about that's what it needs to be rather than oh this is you know you your vitamins should be in the kitchen because that makes sense how do we go about decluttering the cupboards the stuff that i call it my shame cupboard because i've got a lot of cupboards that are full up with stuff like the vitamins they're still there yes of course there's so much shame associated like what's in those cupboards i'm sure archaeologists will probably study them one day and be like oh like what are all these things but is it just the case of you need to just have a day where you just find the energy and empty them so you have like new space to to deal with it's giving me monica from friends her cupboard yes do you remember that the thing is you've already spent the money on them okay so that money's already gone so you holding on to them isn't going to make any difference okay it's like with clothes for example i have a lot of clothes and you look and you go oh but i won't get rid of that item of clothing because i spent money on that and actually so but it's not it's just cluttering up your home which then clutters up your brain in your space so then you can't think as clearly because there's just stuff everywhere so maybe that would be a really great body doubling situation where you just have someone else that just go but you don't need those you know it's like this special cardboard box that you get sent something in the post and you're like well that's a handy cardboard box that's how you can tell you're getting old isn't it good couple books maybe i need that one day actually it's just about thinking with the vitamins just bin them just go through the cupboards if something's out of date bin it because you're not going to use it anyway but by holding on to it every time you open that cupboard you've got that shame you see them and it's a reminder and actually just by getting rid of it whatever it is or out of date food in the cupboards or stuff in the fridge like you've already spent that money it's already gone you holding on to the item because you feel bad about getting rid of it isn't going to change anything i used to think that i had an emotional attachment to the things that are in my cupboard even like it doesn't make sense why would i have an emotional attachment to out-of-date vitamin pills but there's something that i felt sad at the thought of throwing them out yes but actually what i realized was when i did throw them out out of sight out of mind kicked in and i didn't miss them no and i feel like you know there are sad consequences to a mind like that but i feel like with with objects if you actually have that moment where you do discard and get rid of them like you don't miss them no typically no and and i completely understand i think that's a very you know that can be a real neurodivergent trait is we take objects that have no soul or spirit or energy and put sort of emotions onto them we were buying um teddies a couple of months ago like a jelly cat and when the guy put it in the carrier bag i was like please can you make sure it can breathe he was just like yeah no that's fine like valid concern of course because it's a bear and you put him in a plastic bag and that's just dangerous you know but i think there is that thing of it's the same when like the kids were little and you'd take their teddies away and like you'd be in the you know you'd go away for a couple of nights and then we'd always like make sure that the bags weren't fully zipped up so that the animals could breathe and you know all i think it can be that you attach certain emotions or memories as well so you know with the vitamins it might be that that was part of you when you were like going to the gym loads or wanted to be really healthy so actually you put this attachment that if I bin them that means I'm no longer going to be healthy or no longer going to go to the gym and actually that's not the case at all and you know I bet if anyone's listening to this and they looked in their fridge or their fruit bowl all the fruit all the vegetables the chances are there's a soggy cucumber in there somewhere or there's a you know sad looking pepper or whatever just by keeping them because you're like oh god that's a waste it's not going to a bring i was gonna say the cucumber back to life but you know it's not gonna you just bin it and get rid of it and move on and i know now being diagnosed later in life i'm a lot better at that like i was going through the fridge the other day and a few bits of food had gone out and i felt this real guilt because it's food waste and i don't like that at all and then there's almost that frustration of actually well i've spent money on this and we forgot to eat it in time because i looked at the date and i thought it was a different date and you know just typical stuff and i just binned it and thought i shouldn't feel shame and if you spoke to a neurotypical person they wouldn't think anything of it they'd just bin it and be move on whereas we're like oh god should have eaten those bananas i'll save them for banana bread you're not going to so just get rid of it the same with the vitamins i never thought i'd be psychoanalyzing why there's out-of-date vitamins in my cupboard but i think it's so true because i have such a bad memory i don't remember many things but those vitamins in my cupboard act as a visual prompt a visual memory prompt with the fact that i had fun with my partner at a year ago when we were talking about this memory this health kick we were going to go on together and that fun trip to the supermarket where we were really excited in that aisle picking up the vitamin d pills and yes they've gone out of date and they can't be taken anymore but the fact that they're still there reminds me of that nice memory whereas otherwise because my memory is so bad i would forget that event yeah yeah and i think that whole memory and you know like you said the working memory but also those thoughts and i know my husband kelly talks a lot about you know he's so busy like for example when the kids were younger he can't remember them sometimes in certain situations and actually as you say these random items act as a prompt to spark that memory off which makes you really happy but there's do you know what there's an amazing program i think it's still on netflix called the minimalists right now minimalists is not normally a word you associate with adhd is but they're absolutely amazing two american guys and basically whenever I watch that I get really inspired and it's like actually you don't need the memory of the vitamins cluttering up your cupboard because you're with your partner you've got that memory and but like sometimes it just needs unlocking doesn't it so actually what you then might do is come up with a new health journey or go together and buy some more vitamins but then put them in a place that you can see them so you remember to take them and actually that memory will then sort of be elongated and go on for longer so interesting I feel like it can be such a subconscious process too I never even thought the fact that I'm keeping those vitamin pills because of that memory association it's not until some something perhaps reminds you and it could be so small like you smell something yeah like snaps you back to a childhood memory that you have completely forgotten it might be so abstract you can't even visualize like the details of the memory but the feeling comes back yeah either the feeling of happiness or joy or love comes back in that moment and actually that's why i'm hoarding those pills it's nothing to do with the fact that i can't throw them out i just don't want to lose the memory of that feeling yeah exactly i mean we could psychoanalyze this couldn't we for days it's so interesting isn't it though but you're right i I mean, there's loads of research, isn't there, around smells and memory and, you know, even from when you're younger or like, you know, mowed lawns and, oh my God, that was a great summer we had and we played in the garden and it was brilliant and loads of fun and all that kind of thing.

33:12Hester Grainger:And I think, you know, equally smells can then have negative impacts as well. But you're right, it's those memories that we put on things. And that's sometimes why it's quite difficult to part with things that to someone else, you know, if anyone's got small children and a collection of stones and sticks, that child will remember exactly where each stick came from. And to someone else, it might just be a stick. but to that child especially you know if they're neurodivergent they will know exactly where that stick came from and exactly where that stone came from and actually we keep them and i think it's about being respectful with things like that so you don't just bin them because you think they're sticks and they don't matter you know but then again maybe they're in the garden and they're not on the sideboard in the kitchen kind of thing so it is really interesting isn't it yeah no i suppose if you do need to get rid of things you could always take a photo of it and perhaps put it in an album so you have an album of associated memories so i can take a picture of my vitamin pills yeah exactly i think i really have lost the plot yeah and i think but that's a really great one with like children's artwork and stuff and if you've got children that are coming home each week with these projects and actually keep them for a couple of weeks put them up on the fridge or wherever but take a photo and then actually you can create really cute books or whatever or have them on your phone or print them out you don't need the actual item i think you know when we moved about 18 months ago and it was such a good time to just go through everything and i had my like a level photography project well we moved a couple of years ago so I was like okay I've had this for like 30 years and I was like why have I got this and Kelly was like I don't know but we've moved that from a lot of different houses house to house I don't need it to remember that I've got a photography a level rubbish at photography still even now but I don't need why am I keeping this and I think there's this real sometimes you just need to have a real switch and just go actually what is the basis why am I keeping it and if you're umming and ahhing though if you're thinking do i bin it or do i not just keep it and then maybe you go right i'm going to put this somewhere if you've got the space i'm going to give it three months i'm going to give it six months if i've not even thought about it or not even used it do i really need it yeah gosh yeah there's a lot there isn't there it's like i suppose it's why people keep hold of like their old teddy bears or their old blankets because it's such a dopamine reminder of like happy times yes and if we're like dopamine seeking beings even if even if it's like a minute memory we're not we don't want to throw it out it's such a knee-jerk reaction to keep it in our in our world yeah i mean we i feel like you've been around we have a loft full of teddy bears and that was like i don't know if you ever see it on um on social media people like i have the um uh stuffed teddy autism and like my kids are autistic and my daughter is and the other day i was like we maybe need to go through those at some point and she was like absolutely not we're like okay fine they're fine like we've got the room in the loft it's fine but i think it's when you're running out of space so then maybe you tackle the things that don't have all those emotions and memories and this sounds really silly and it might seem a bit mad but um i have i've had tons of clothes over the years like that's one of my dopamine seeking is shopping so i'm trying to get rid of stuff and i'm trying to go through the woodgers and i'm thinking what's going to work and how i framed it which fits with your vitamins and their emotions is i was like this dress or this jacket is in my wardrobe and it is not living its best life right and it needs to run free and it needs to go and be with someone else where it gets worn and shown off and is living its best life and all of a sudden I could get rid of loads of stuff because I just was like it's sad in my cupboard it doesn't get shown and then I sold a bunch of stuff on vintage or whatever and I'd have people messaging going oh my god this has brought me so much joy and I'm like yes and quite often I'd put on the post you know needs a good home so if anyone understood this fabulous jacket it needs a good home so I think it's it's just about not keeping everything but being selective yeah yeah and separating things that i do have that emotional memory attachment to it compared to things that perhaps don't but you just don't have the executive function to return them yes that could be the the adhd test right it's like how good are you at returning online purchases adhd tax right there yeah i think this is the thing the whole returning purchases um and a really good tip for that is if you equate right if i go to the post office to return this item and that item's 50 quid.

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37:46Hester Grainger:would I go to the post office, which is a mile away for 50 pounds? Yeah, I probably would actually. So you almost, and then if you, even if that doesn't feel enough, you then go, what else could I spend 50 pounds on? I did this with a client a while ago and they were quite young. So they were like, well, that would be X amount of beers. That would buy me eight beers. I'm like, so is that now worth retaining the item? Well, yeah, because that's like a night out. Right. So you almost have to not quite trick your brain, but switch it. But I think again, you know the returns policies i mean i could go on about this for ages alex but i think there is this issue with us buying things and they're not able to return them for an executive function skills and it feels too much effort or maybe you've got to go and speak to someone or oh my god trying to get the return code that in itself is such a challenge that they make it really hard yes well you're making me like get quite angry because i've been the victim of this a lot it's so complicated yeah buying stuff is fun because we're like okay we're going to feel good with those new trainers.

38:43Or that new computer game is going to make me feel good. But do we not get excited about the prospect of money returning to our bank account?

38:49Hester Grainger:No, because the executive function challenges are so much the difficulty. Because it's not just the executive function, it's transitions. So actually, like I live in a little village outside Norwich. So actually, I've got to take this item. I've tried it on. It doesn't fit. I've now got to put it back in its bag. I've got to go online, get the code. Remember to screenshot the code now I've got to sell a tape up I've got to get in the car I've got to get out I've got to queue at the post office I've now got to talk to the post person which doesn't bother me but it might for some people and then I've got to send it how like all of those steps there are just too many whereas actually if you just could you know click your fingers and it was returned you do it but there are so many steps so even sometimes the 50 pounds or 20 quid or whatever it is isn't enough because actually all those challenges and you just think or you leave it to the last minute you know procrastination leave it to the last minute the dopamine kicks in to eventually do it and then it turns out you thought you had 30 days and it's only 28 days done that quite you'd be so stressed you'd go do all of those steps you'd finally return the thing for 50 pounds and then to kind of like soothe the stress you'd go home via the supermarket and spend 60 quid exactly this isn't it this is the trouble but i think it's about being kind to yourself as long as you can afford it and you're not getting into masses of debt it's okay to go do you know what I've done it again but it's not the end of the world obviously if you're getting into masses of debt or it's causing real problems from a financial perspective that's obviously an issue and something else that needs to be approached but actually it's a gain about that kindness filter of just going do you know what I've done it again but then maybe try and remember those steps beforehand so that you think actually do I really need this shall I wait let me see maybe try it on in store which can fill a lot of effort actually rather than buying it online and getting it sent kind of try and think of a few other solutions instead.

40:34It's the saying, isn't it? I've got like, all of my investments are tied up, all of my money is tied up in investments. So there's all those Amazon boxes that either haven't opened because I don't even know what's in them anymore, or you can't return them.

40:45Hester Grainger:No, the ASOS parcels just piled up. Should we move on to number three? Yes. The third one, and that's deep cleaning planned marathons. So actually like scheduling a day to reset the whole flat. Let's say we do the whole flat on a Saturday yeah does that work no question number two no I think the thing with that is though all good intentions you're like I've got a day off or it's the weekend I'm going to spend all day doing that right so we've not got enough dopamine there to you know because we've just got all day so what does all day look like does that mean till 10 o 'clock at night are we going to have interception challenges where we're going to forget to eat and drink and actually stop and rest and you can have the best intentions in the world but actually you don't know what week you're going to have you don't know what energy you're going to have and we know us ADHD is like to change our plans and we can wake up on a day and think I had all this planned and actually I'm not feeling it today and that is the problem with marathons it it just doesn't work for us so we need to have sprints we need short bursts like you know like 20 minutes 15 minutes maybe be half an hour if you can sustain that but just staying in one area rather than going i'm going to tidy the whole flat because that's never going to work and like you were saying earlier it's going to you're going to get everything out of every cupboard you're going to go really deep dive and actually everything's going to end up in a mess and you're probably going to burn out as well like you might you might do it because you're all very all or nothing but then you're probably going to need like three business days to recover if you do get through it exactly and then that's your weekend when you're meant to be resetting and chilling and just doing nice things anyway and yes obviously life gets in the way and we need to do cleaning and things but actually as you say if you're then that then impacts your sunday and then maybe your monday maybe your tuesday that's just not worth it like you're just going to burn out like you said and then there's going to be that guilt and that shame spiral and kind of round and round it goes so you're saying rather than doing a whole day like little sprints get like a five minute timer yes yeah i think timers are amazing anything that where you can like gamify it so whether it's you go right i'm going to do this for five minutes, 10 minutes, and I'm going to see how quickly I can do it.

42:53Hester Grainger:So I'm going to see how quickly I can do the hoovering. If I set my timer for five minutes, all you can do is do songs, like I was saying. So you find two great songs or an old song that's five minutes, go right until the end of this song. I know I've got to try and get as much done. And then don't forget the rewards, right? And we need a reward quite instantly. And the reward can be really small. It can just be like, and now I'm going to make myself a cup of tea or now I'm going to have that snack I don't believe that food and drink should be rewards as in you cannot have that until you've done it but I just mean do you know what I've got that little chocolate bar on the side I'm gonna have that bag of crisps or that apple or you know whatever it is actually that's going to be my reward for doing it because we like rewards don't we I also think if you've got partners or maybe you live with flatmates a thank you like I know that my me and my husband quite often will be like just so you know I've done the washing up today and I've done the hoovering and I've done the laundry and we're like oh my god thank you if anyone else heard us thanking each other for doing these things which other people just think are normal things they'd probably think it's madness but actually when he's just like oh look isn't the kitchen tidy yeah you know what I mean it's just that like oh yeah just that little spike a day for me yeah such a good idea I feel like my RSD is so bad I wouldn't want to let the timer down okay yes I know what you mean and also timers don't always work if you're autistic ADHD if you're all ADHD because actually a timer can feel like panic so timers may work with some people and for other people they may just be like absolutely not i am not putting myself under five minutes of pressure this is too much but maybe you just keep a rough eye on the time and think right it's 11 o 'clock now i'm going to give it to 11 15 and see how i get on and then decide whether you want to stop or continue but actually if you just go right but it's about you know taking a room at a time and an area at the time rather than it being I'm going to tidy the whole flat what about one surface at a time rather than doing the whole kitchen you would just do that little surface over there does that break down the overwhelm and get help you get over the start line so that's dune bugging right so I love dune bugging and I think it's got the best name ever and it's to do with think little bugs in America these dune bugs in America and basically they tap tap tap tap tap and they keep focusing on the same area of a wing shield obviously I had to google it when I'd read about his technique and I was like, oh my goodness me.

45:05Hester Grainger:So gene bugging is quite amazing and it's basically you take one area. So you might take a table in your kitchen or your dining room or whatever, but actually if it's a big table, you just take that one section of the table, like you said, or a worktop. And what you do is you go through and you'll take an item off it, you'll pick it up. So for example, if we look at your lovely shelves, you take an item and then you go, right, that doesn't belong here. I need to go and put it in the bathroom, right? But then you do not do anything else in the bathroom you always have to be quite blinkered and be like right do not get distracted and then you go back to the starting point again let's say it's the worktop and then you put the other item away and you just keep doing that but you don't get yourself sidetracked you keep coming back and dune bugging and if you almost visualize that that can help because what we can do is we go right i've seen you know we need some new loo rolls in the toilets they're in the kitchen at the moment because you've just been for a food shop so i'm going to take those up there then you're up there in the bathroom going oh actually that sink needs a bit of a clean so okay i'm going to start to clean the sink but then you're like oh i need a new sponge for that so i'm going to go downstairs and then you're looking at something else under the cupboard and you're like i've seen a leaky tap and all of a sudden you're fixing this leaky tap and actually all you wanted to do is put the toilet roll in the bathroom where it belongs so dune bugging is a really great visual just think of yourself like a little bug keep coming back to that one spot and then eventually you'll have a tidy area because what adhd is do is we just go oh i'm going to tidy and actually anyone else comes in, it looks like nothing has changed because we've just then focused a bit in the bedroom and a bit in the bathroom and a bit in the kitchen.

46:38Hester Grainger:We've not June bugged. So it's a really great technique. That's so good. I feel like it's incredibly expensive sometimes if you go off on a side quest that can pull you away from the main thing. Your story there reminded me of when I was cooking spaghetti a couple of months ago, cooking spaghetti on the pan, simmering away. And I thought, I've hurt some advice, and that's to clean as you go. so I got the spoon that I was stirring the spaghetti with and I went over to the sink to clean the spoon I thought you know I'm an adult now I'm gonna work on my executive function I can clean as I go cleaning the spoon under the tap and I realized that I need to get the sponge the sponge looked really dry so I picked up the sponge put it under the tap wrung all the water out yeah I noticed that the water was really horrible it was a horrible color and I thought how often do you have to replace your sponges yeah because that's gross yeah when on google how often do you ever replace your sponges apparently you have to replace them all the time way more often than i thought i know i want to know how long you had that sponge for so i go on amazon to buy some new sponges of course get distracted by some glasses which i thought that set of glasses will go nicely with my with my cutlery yeah um this takes 15 minutes yeah where's your spaghetti at yeah suddenly i go back to the the hob and my spaghetti is horrible you know it's it's water ridden um and my garlic is charcoal yeah like it's so risky isn't it like how do you because this is the second point which is clean as you go which which i think is terrible advice and doesn't work for people with adhd for this particular reason because clean if you go off on a tangent on a side quest like you can forget about your primary task yeah and we just forget exists because we've now moved on because we're bored of cooking so spaghetti does take women ages to cook and it's a bit boring so actually we've gone dopamine seeking like you said the side quest oh what's going on over here and then you just get into that and down that rabbit hole and then you forget actually what you're doing so it's a bit like when you're cooking or something like that it's a bit like the gene bugging you are just cooking and that is what you need to be doing and maybe you've got someone body doubling with you and they're in the kitchen whilst you're cooking or maybe you're on the phone to someone you know catching up with them whilst you're cooking but it's just about focusing on the task in hand because we love to have lots of different things on the go because that's what excites our brains but actually that's not very good for getting any tasks finished or having spaghetti for tea yes so that's the brilliant solution right so it's kind of like complete the task that you're doing so in this case like make the spaghetti make the bolognese eat it and then perhaps rely on body doubling to do all of the cleaning in one go afterwards yes exactly or if you've got someone with you it's like divide and conquer that's what i always say so if you're doing the cooking then your partner's doing the cleaning so then they can wash up as you go because you're still focusing on the spaghetti but it's when we're trying to be all things to people and pull ourselves in different directions that can be the trouble yeah gosh task switching can be expensive for us ADHDers.

49:21It can.

49:21Hester Grainger:And then also the transition to get back into it as well. That's the thing. So you can change tasks and we can do that quite quickly, but it's really difficult getting back into it. And actually it's that understanding, actually I'd forgotten I was even cooking spaghetti. What was I even doing here? Because you're now down a rabbit hole of Amazon and glasses. Yeah. My sincerest apologies for interrupting your hyper focus. Tickets to the ADHD Chatter podcast live theatre show are selling fast. I'll be joined on stage by three leading psychiatrists and we'll be unpacking all things ADHD, how to process a late diagnosis or ADHD, and of course, the dreaded rejection sensitivity dysphoria.

49:57I really hope you can join me for a night full of validation, laughs and insights, and one that will remind you that you're not broken, just different and that you have always been enough. It's on the 19th of May in London. You can find a link to the tickets in the description. I can't wait to meet you in person. Right, Heston, the final one, the final bit of advice that is terrible for us ADHDers, and that is rigid daily cleaning schedules. For example, Monday, we'll do the laundry. Tuesday, we'll do the bathrooms. I feel like any schedule that has more than two steps, for me, just gets kind of filed in the, I'll circle back to this in 2029 cabinet, and just forgets forgotten about it.

50:39Yeah.

50:39Hester Grainger:Well, firstly, where is this schedule? Is it written down? Is it on a notepad? Is it in our brains? Because if it's in our brains, it's never happening is it we've just forgotten about it already and again you know there's that thing isn't there where it's like oh I clean on it you know I'm going to do all the laundry on a Monday but what if we need something for the Wednesday or something for the Thursday or if you're running a family you know you've got a whole household and there's PE kits involved in school uniforms or football kits at the weekend actually it doesn't always work like that and if you're neurodivergent as you well know you know your children may probably well be very much so so it's that kind of thing as well that almost the whole house has to be involved in that because actually you can be like well you know i'm going to do the washing on a monday but actually your kids haven't told you they've got piles of stuff in their room or whatever but you know it's about having then a laundry bin that then everything goes in there etc but i think being really targeted with it is great but actually we just try and self-sabotage so it's like well no actually and again a bit of the pda kicks in of like actually no i'm not going to do that because you've told me to as in you yourself you're telling yourself in your brain you know and i think that can happen is the self-sabotage and then you decide no i'm not going to do that today or it then throws you when you need to do the washing more than once a week and you're like well hold on it's now a thursday and i've got to do washing as well because you know there was more pe this week or sports or i spilled something down myself whatever it is actually that can then be really difficult so i would advise against that does it help to have to buy multiple items of of things that you use regularly like phone chargers in every room yes cleaning sprays and sponges in every room school uniforms just multiples of things which i know is really difficult and i'm really you know it can be really challenging but actually the grief and the effort and the energy that it takes i know that we used to have like spare school ties because the chances are would have lost a school tie somewhere along the way and actually you then always find it i have multiple of the same lip glosses i have one in my bag one in the car you know i keep lots of things in the car because i know that actually i'm probably going to need them in there so yes multiples of lots of things if you can afford it i think is really important and it just makes life a lot easier because then you have a phone charger in the sitting room in the bedroom you know in the car for example whatever then you've always got something with you whereas i think if you've got this just one item this precious item that you're you know you're just always going to lose it aren't you which is really frustrating yeah definitely i feel like it takes away the sort of i'll do it later barrier yes because it's right there isn't it you can then just plug your phone in or you can then you know with the kids as well I think it's really helpful to get them involved and be like right there we go you know I just remember we literally had five lots of school uniform so you know five lots of shirts I think three pairs of trousers to be fair but then there was just no everything was hung up you could see it visually you know if you're a grown-up and you're trying to plan your outfits for the week you know have them hanging up so you can visually see that's what I'm going to be wearing today and then you know it's clean except rather than trying to scrub around that morning so helpful what's some closing advice hester for anyone watching anyone listening who who is neurodivergent and trying to keep their house in order what's some closing advice for them be kind to yourself little and often and i think it's like you don't need to reinvent the wheel i think there's a real perception of i need to like scrub the bathroom from top to toe you know actually is it okay just to whiz around with a quick bathroom wipe i know they're not the most environmentally friendly but actually hd etc just whiz around you're going to feel a lot better for it as well.

54:08And I think it's about remembering the shame that there is no shame.

54:13Hester Grainger:It's okay. You know, body doubling is great, but I just think remembering, just be kind to yourself because it's hard enough, isn't it, having ADHD without then stressing over having a tidy house. Yeah. Yeah. Phenomenal advice, Hester. Thank you so, so much. Just finally, I'm going to deliver to you a letter that was written by the previous guest where they wrote a letter to their younger yourself okay kindly read it for us okay there we go thank you okay to the next guest right adhd is not what you think it is all brains are more different than people think be open dot dot dot there is greatness in their love heart i love that wow what a closing sentiment actually give me goosebumps i don't know who wrote that but that is amazing hester on behalf of everyone struggling to grapple their brains and keep their house in order.