AuDHD Expert: What Female AuDHD ACTUALLY Feels Like, Abuse Will Find You!

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0:30ADHD and autism are on a spectrum of some sort. Something happens, this kind of drift between neurodivergent and neurotypical and the dynamics change. As we kind of get older, it can be very, very tricky. Society says I need to have X amount of friends and it's almost like this friendship is actually really unhealthy for me. However, I'd rather have this really unhealthy relationship than be completely on my own. Dr. Carly Jones, MBE is a trailblazing influence in the ADHD and autism space. With over 20 years of experience, she has dedicated her life to making the world a better place for people with all DHD.

1:05When you're on autopilot, you're people-pleasing, and when you're people-pleasing, you lose all autonomy. You've got to say yes, because people smile, they grin, they're happy, and then we don't realize what we're getting ourselves into, and it gets deeper and deeper and deeper.

1:17Dr Carly Jones MBE:There's a lot of push and pull, a lot of contrasting traits sometimes that can create challenges, but do you have any hacks that could bring them together harmoniously? I think it's going to differ for everyone. For some people, it might be. Huge announcement just before we start. Tickets to the ADHD Chatter podcast live theatre show are selling fast. I'll be joined on stage by three leading psychiatrists, and we'll be unpacking all things ADHD, how to process a late diagnosis or ADHD, and of course the dreaded rejection sensitivity dysphoria. I really hope you can join me for a night full of validation, laughs and insights, and one that will remind you that you're not broken, just different and that you have always been enough.

1:58Dr Carly Jones MBE:It's on the 19th of May in London. You can find a link to the tickets in the description. I can't wait to meet you in person.

2:07Dr Carly Jones MBE:Dr. Carly Jones, welcome. A huge honour to have you here. This is the Audie HD episode I've been waiting a long time to have. I think there's a lot to cover, like what Audie HD feels like, how to know if somebody is or dhd and not just adhd and also like the risks of being undiagnosed and how if someone is living with or dhd but not knowing it what are the potential hidden consequences of that but to start with if someone's listening or watching and they have adhd how might they know that they are also or dhd oh that's the million dollar question isn't it I mean, some academics might say everyone's both.

2:54Some academics might say, no, you're definitely this or definitely that. And I wish I could answer it. And I don't know if I can, Alex, because also just as being autistic, you're not kind of fixed somewhere on the spectrum. You might have higher daily care needs at the point of diagnosis or lower daily care needs at the point of diagnosis. But throughout the lifespan, that can completely change. and um being a woman that's almost 44 i'm almost i've got to have something to do with it and i've watched a few of your podcasts with some incredible um uh adhd women and doctors on and something happens when you're perimenopausal it's almost like my adhd i'm like yes i know you're there just sit down be quiet no no no you know i know you're there i can manage this and there's something that happens and i don't think it's a bad thing um that when you go into perimenopause it's almost like your ADHD is like I'm here and I don't necessarily I don't think that's an easy thing but I don't think that's a bad thing because it makes you very good at not suffering fools anymore and I feel actually a bit annoyed with my ADHD traits because I'm like come on you could have kicked in a bit earlier because you're quite you're quite feisty I quite like you so I wish I could answer that I don't know I think ADHD and autism are on a spectrum of some sorts and I think it's the way that they're either your enemy or your friend throughout your life and how to navigate them I'm not diagnosed with ADHD I was diagnosed as autistic at 32 um I've always been aware there's been some hyperactive inattentive traits um and it's day by day as to what that might look like so um it's a surprise for us all

4:42Dr Carly Jones MBE:it's such a huge conversation on the autism side do you think there are some traits of autism that are so subtle like almost unrecognizable that it could make someone go under the radar for so long yeah so um let's assume we're thinking on the the academics that think no no adhd is one thing autism is another thing if that were the case and they were and there was kind of you know what to you would feel different and i say this in a personal capacity part of the diagnostic criteria for being diagnosed as autistic is having um daily uh daily challenges um which which affects your everyday life with social imagination so not traditional imagination you know there's some great poets, actors and all that, dancers, whatever.

5:40But that social imagination in a social context, this happens, I say this, someone else says this, this could be the consequence. And that's personally for me what I struggle with most as being autistic. So that is my kind of primary challenge, if you like. I've never been able to, in a personal capacity, in a professional capacity, I'm really good at it. but in a personal capacity I've never been able to mitigate risk for myself I've only had to make tons and tons and tons of mistakes been vulnerable tons and tons and tons of times to go oh the last time this happened or the last three times this happened as my mother used to always say you don't learn from your mistakes you just make bigger ones um is is I've learned from event and life experience to go actually in hindsight um capped in hindsight as they often say then this isn't a good idea so I actually think making mistakes and failing is a beautiful thing um which I think gives you resilience doesn't it so I think it'd be the social imagination part for me and that's one of those things which is so hidden in plain sight to other people observing us but for us it's all consuming my granny she's dead now but my granny was northern i won't try and do a northern accent because i'm rubbish at it and she used to call me many names um but she used to in a fun nice northern way um but she used to always say to me oh carly it's there's nothing wrong with you it's all them other buggers we don't know if we can say buggers i just did sorry luke um but um and she used to sit down and play this game with me as a child which was the consequence game have you ever played that no how what are the rules of that game um so you have one we would have one bit of paper and one pen and i would write a sentence first sentence to a story fold it up so you can't see what i've just written send send it over to you you'd write the next sentence fold it up so i can't see it we do the whole a4 page of that so at the end it kind of looks like a concertina fan we undo it and we read up the story and it's funny because it's a nonsense story because I only know what's going on in my head my agenda for the story and similarly you only know the story and the agenda in your head for that story so it's a funny story it doesn't make sense and social imagination is very very hard to describe to other people because if someone said to me oh talk to me about social imagination it would be a bit like asking somebody that's been blind since birth tell me your favorite shades of purple I don't know right so this this game though I do sometimes with parents if I'm doing any talks or training around social imagination because you really never know where something's going to end up um and if you're playing that game with your granny or if we were to play it here together it's i know it's going to be a light-hearted funny story it's not going to be dark and terrifying um but i can't switch that off that's every phone call every whatsapp message every work meeting every relationship every everything it's just acting on autopilot and hoping for the best, which can lead you into terrible situations.

9:18And similarly, you might go, I had no idea this story was going to be so good. And you have to pick who's in your circle, I think.

9:26Dr Carly Jones MBE:I think it's such a relatable experience. You're putting out one version of yourself into the world and that version is met with various responses. And especially if you're such an internalized person and you feel like you're living inside your head sometimes behind your eyes and what the world is seeing is this version of you this masked version of you and I guess it probably over a time period does all fall into place and make sense but it can be incredibly confusing and the source of such a disconnect between like how you feel about yourself sometimes what messaging the world is giving you someone with audio hd how might masking look like say a typical person with audio hd goes to a party like what what what presentation might that look like um i think it's going to differ for everyone for some people it might be and you see that i'm clasping my hands at the moment and i know we get a break after half an hour but i i'm holding my hands alex we can have a break whenever you like no no no no i'm having a great time i i'm clasping my hands because that's my natural very subtle masking because otherwise i'm like this all the time and as a kid i can remember um i remember my mom saying to someone i was italian i think she said or something oh she's just italian because people are just constantly flapping her hand look i'm not italian um part swedish and welsh actually but you know uh those sort of things and that dolmi oh, Dolmio advert, and a piece goes, Dolmio day, and they used to say, because I used to flap my hands, I had dark hair, but anyway, I'm rambling.

11:05It could be something as small as, I'm not going to flap my hands, I'm going to sit on my hands, and what happens after that? Start rocking, because I'm trying to not show my autistic self, and that has become very subconscious for me, actually. I'm getting more insight as I go along. it could be avoiding eye contact or trying to do eye contact but instead of the i mean when do you look and when do you stop looking okay so my doctor taught me to always look at people's noses so i could probably identify people just by their noses now i'm face blind anything else just show me the nose because i'm only looking at noses or foreheads you know um those those sort of things so it could be as simple as trying to hide your stims um trying not to talk too much about your special interests now i just you know talk to me about black labradors all day trains planes um which is ironic because they're very stereotypical male autistic interests um and and those sort of things and also it can be quite physical as well you know it could be I'm trying more now in my 40s to go okay well I like this outfit so therefore I'm going to wear this outfit and there are occasions where you have to go well out of politeness to the host I'm going to dress in a particular way because that's obviously what the dress code is and I say obviously Alex I can remember getting my first black tie event invitation and i wore a black tie

12:42Dr Carly Jones MBE:why would you not if that's what it says and if you're a literal thinker yeah i mean why would that makes total sense yeah i wore a black tie and a white shirt because i was like it's a black tie event better find a black tie no idea what that means so not obviously at all i've made quite a few mistakes put that one in the mistake book so i don't repeat it um you know or it could be makeup or it could be anything and a lot of the time when I see particularly younger younger people and they might be kind of very gothy or or have a very certain quite pronounced cool absolutely cool I think goths are cool dress sense I'm like yeah they're probably autistic or or adhd because it's that's a you know a really strong physical mask um so it can look different for everyone masking's a tricky thing though it used to be a big enemy of mine in a way because a it's exhausting if you're going to do that on a physical level um and it's also exhausting if you're covering up your stims because we're doing it for some sort of reason be that the adhd and the hyperactivity or if that's an autistic stim or perhaps both maybe this hand does the hyperactivity and this hand does the autism who knows but exhausting mentally because every time you mask yourself you erode a little bit more of your self-esteem and if you're eroding your self-esteem you're eroding your sense of self and if you erode your sense of self then you're going to be really depressed and i guess when you don't have a sense of self it's very hard to know what people are good for you what jobs are good for you what relationships are right for you i very much relate to the masking and specifically the eye contact um and i think when you struggle with eye contact and you force yourself to maintain it and then when it's your turn to speak you just blank and you don't know what to say you genuinely feel like you're stupid or I certainly do and I feel like that over years and years and years it can really erode your self-confidence and your ability to put yourself in social situations like I have a pen in my hand doing this chat today and I think that is certainly my stim if I don't have a pen I panic what do I do with my hands now and I guess that's probably masking for me wearing the same clothes every day or I have multiple versions of this outfit for me is unmasking.

15:21Dr Carly Jones MBE:I used to feel like I had to wear different outfits every single day. And the amount of effort that that took in my brain to decide what to wear every day actually took me away from my ability to think and to strategize and to grow my business and the podcast. But when I actually just said to myself, actually, no, I found an outfit I like. It feels nice. I like the materials. I'm going to wear that every day. and I could just wake up, put it on, the amount of friction that was erased from my morning routine, just by making that tiny adjustment. But I feel like if you don't have an awareness of all of these things we're talking about, and you carry on masking, you carry on putting that extra effort into deciding what to wear or maintaining eye contact, and you go on and on and on feeling broken, feeling misunderstood, feeling like there's genuinely something wrong with you because the consequence of not knowing what to say when it's your turn to speak in a conversation is met with an eye roll or did you hear what I just said Alex again what do you think are the long-term consequences of somebody being undiagnosed or dhd well the first point I'd like to say before that I think you are exceptionally intelligent I think you're really really bright and I saw this thing because I spend too much time on instagram for women in her 40s um i just love all the funny things and i communicate by like sending them to friends and things um and my daughters have some horrific things um but uh i saw this kind of real and is that the word i'm trying to be cool alex yes that's the one and it was uh something about oh i masked myself to be just like them and now they're calling me stupid don't dumb yourself down for the world i think would be a good message to particularly younger younger adults or listening you don't have to you know I know of one autistic woman and I'm not dissing Love Island it's not my type of show I'd like to watch the House of Commons live because I'm that cool um but um there was I know of one autistic woman that noticed the girls at work in the lunchtime all they spoke about was Love Island so she hated Love Island but she went home every night and watched Love Island and took notes and researched to then pretend that she liked Love Island so she could make friends at work um and she was like well actually I wanted to talk about science or I wanted to talk about this bit of tech that I'm really interested in if I'd done that it would have gone she's a bit weird or a bit different um and so yeah I think and I'm not saying that people watch Love Island are dumb I know some very intelligent people that watch Love Island but um but don't yeah that that makes me really sad So that makes me really, really sad that, you know, you felt stupid.

18:10And I think it's living authentically. You have to be, it takes a lot of bravery. Because you've, particularly in the past, if there's been bullying or if there's been times where being yourself has made you really vulnerable, it takes an awful lot of bravery to authentically be yourself and decide who's safe to do that around. and the question around around the risk of that i think there's a huge safe and obviously safeguarding special interest even above black labradors um which i don't have a black labrador by the way um one day one day it will happen um is um you when you're on autopilot you're people pleasing and when you're people pleasing you lose all autonomy and it's so much easier if you're people pleasing and your only focus is to survive this act if you like around people to fit in you've got to say yes because saying yes people smile they nod they grin they're happy and all you're thinking is yeah I'm winning at social being social um no no comes with perhaps a loss of friendship no comes with um you know why not and then this huge debate around why not or potentially not being invited somewhere and so people just say yes right and then we don't realize what we're getting ourselves into and it gets deeper and deeper and deeper um you fall too far in to fall back out and i think there's a huge safeguarding there issue with masking as well

19:48Dr Carly Jones MBE:i'm just i'm thinking about the the the lady you mentioned who went home and watched love island and so she literally changed her viewing habits in order to feel like she had some kind of input into the conversation at work. So she probably pulled herself away from a special interest or something that she really wanted to do that evening. And that is really sad. Do you think that people-pleasing element, that tendency to say yes and put yourself in situations that aren't aligned with what you are really passionate about, but you're saying yes to it, you're turning up to that event because you don't want to let people down.

20:26Dr Carly Jones MBE:Can that particular characteristic create a vulnerability and what might that vulnerability be towards if you're an all dhd woman is that a risky area to be in i think it can be i think we're so misunderstood anyway um we're so misunderstood particularly when masking a lot be that through appearance or be that through the way that we might talk to talk with other people um and then that that misunderstanding just gets wider and wider and that was particularly tricky in my in my 20s um you know thinking oh well this is what everyone else is doing and and i should go along with this and and you know even more so in my early teens as well um because you're not really living authentically and just like that example of someone that's going to watch something they don't want to watch that's kind of absorbed into their downtime to their recovery time their processing time um and so vulnerabilities to mental health for sure um vulnerabilities to happiness and vulnerabilities in perhaps not meeting all the people you should have met you know there's that great quote isn't it um i was blue but i didn't tell anyone else i was blue and there was somebody else that was blue and they didn't tell anyone else and we never met each other um you know yeah yeah just go out there and and be your weird weird authentic self and you've got to meet the right people that should be in your world um because you're not people pleasing you're being yourself and that's tricky and i say that something's still rubbish at it i'm not saying i've cracked that one like no way you know um but yeah huge huge vulnerabilities to safe personal safety to one extreme and and and unhappiness putting yourself in front of a tv show that you don't want to watch but you're doing it to please someone else seems like a type of behavior that could escalate into a more vulnerable situations i mean if you're a an all dhd woman or an all dhd man and you have this tendency to put other people's first put other people's needs ahead of your own like how severely dangerous could that get it's self-erasure isn't it you're erasing yourself um and kind of thinking well if you're around i'm not saying that another person might be a particularly bad person but somebody that's not suitable for you for xyz reasons you're kind of erasing yourself and thinking well i'll be less i'll be less because they need more I'll be less and you could end up in some really sticky situations because when does that stop at what level does that stop and if you boundaries are a hard thing to learn for for any person um but I think particularly for um autistic or women of ADHD it's um I mean we're so vulnerable as it is 91 % of us experience sexual violence for the um you know within our lives um I think it was 52 % of those before the age of 15 you know we're so vulnerable anyway it's I just think boundaries should be taught at school from boundaries and consent should be taught from a really for everyone from a really early age and you know that the power of the word no um in small situations so then when larger situations happen it's it's not as new like not this new world of oh my gosh i just set my first boundary you know wow let's get a cake um you know very tricky i suppose if you are somebody who's who feels different who feels broken who has been told by probably so many people in their early years that you know what's wrong with you why are you so sensitive to calm down you feel like you're almost starved of praise and positive comments and nice messages if you're someone like that and we know that's heightened in the neurodivergent community are you more susceptible to being love bombed or like if someone are you more you like the low-hanging fruit or a toxic person who might prey on that vulnerability i tend to make jokes inappropriate times because it's my coping mechanism but um i have said to colleagues before who work in law enforcement i've said you know if you're trying to find a local predator and you're not sure who it is just puts both in like club at the same time they'll find me in five minutes it's almost as if it's on my front you know on my forehead pick me and I don't know why and other autistic and ADHD women will have had very very similar experiences um I can't see the sign um red roses you know someone come up to me with a bunch of red flags that look like red roses to me and I think there's this from an autistic perspective I do not know someone's flirting with me all stop I'm not reading any body language I'm I'm not understanding that I mean first of all I have no concept why anyone would would want to flirt with me I don't understand because that's in their brain that's not in my brain I and then I have no idea what flirting is so the only way I'm going to know that say you know and gentlemen think well I've done enough in she's obviously not interested I'll back off yeah because that's what gentlemen do it's what nice guys do the only way for me to know somebody is interested in me is that love bombing love bombing to me it's kind of like mild flirting oh that's quite oh they must like me because they've literally directly said xyz um right let's let's get a house together oh we already know each other three months sure i'll sell my house um you know uh and i'm so love bombing for me would what would feel like that oh they're interested so I would not understand the subtleties so um I'm not saying that men that are gentlemen should always become love bombers please don't but it you know direct comms can we just go back to like when we were seven and um the boy at school would write you a note and you had to like tick yes or no I mean it's the most autistic friendly time to be alive right it's so clear um kind of sweet but if you ticked no they wouldn't do it again if we could just go back to that as adults that'd be great um so I think it makes us incredibly vulnerable to that and that kind of conditioning as well completely unintentional conditioning so in in my um book safeguarding autistic girls um in there I write about this timeline of vulnerability and I made a chart for it for the the autism act review that went through um for the house of laws and they very kindly published it on the government website so it's kind of like five stages of vulnerability and i think this would absolutely apply to to adhd uh women as well and men um and and within that timeline that starts with the early years and let's say that you're the child in the the car that's uh either fidgeting a lot so it's you know um you can see no one else is doing that stop being so dramatic or whatever it might be um or the child is like the radio is really loud no it's not you're overreacting um because other people aren't experiencing that way and it's completely unintentional conditioning unintentional gaslighting but you go into the world and you go into school kind of five going i'm too much i'm too loud i'm too annoying maybe because i'm spinning around to kate bush with ring heights still do that still with a pair of scarves in my head i'm so excited about the film i cannot tell you um so um that wasn't a plug by the way unless anyone wants to give me free tickets for jacob lordy that would be fine far too young for me but maybe line them up for my kids um so um sorry i was now thinking about jacob i'm sure most of the audience are too special interest forget black labs um so but you kind of go into the world going i'm the problem everyone else is right so it's very easy for that to then turn into um not recognizing and reporting uh any forms of abuse from you know from that age on and uh and that's a real worry and and it's not parents or carers fault because we've all gone oh my gosh no it's not pipe down you know we've got to be our auntie so-and-so's at this time all day but we've all done it i have um i hope the kids are right i don't know 28 23 and 18 now um but uh big hammock is very very bumble yeah and if there's an audi hd woman listening can having an awareness of their vulnerability to being love bombed protect them from it because i've got an awareness of RSD.

29:37Dr Carly Jones MBE:I know that I'm vulnerable to criticisms, but even with all of the awareness that I have, it doesn't protect me from the visceral reaction in the moment. So if you are a vulnerable woman who is susceptible to filling with dopamine and almost having an instant connection with someone if they love bomb you, because that messaging is so in contradiction to how you feel about yourself because of so many horrible messages that you've experienced. Can having an awareness of that protect you from the probably instant reaction which might make you gravitate towards that person? Deep down you know they're toxic and you can see your intuition is telling you that's a red flag, but it's such an instant visceral reaction that you go there anyway.

30:25I think we will never be able to control our feelings or our chemical responses i think that's just within us be that as humans probably magnified times a thousand if you're neurodivergent i think the the safeguarding aspect particularly as uh you know as an adult would be to surround yourself with other women with the same neurotype or other male friends of the same neurotype because it's and i i work a lot with sexual violence, domestic violence charities. I'm a patron of a great one called Lotus who specialise in neurodivergent women. And speaking to friends, personal experience, friends and also the charities that I work with, we really struggle to safeguard ourselves.

31:19Sometimes lifelong. But we're very, very good at safeguarding our fellow a tribe member either of autistic or adhd or both um friends and i really really now rely on on a close circle of friends both male and female to go what do you think of this and and they're like oh yeah that's that's that's quite sweet or absolutely not um and and and and vice versa i do that that for them um and then really having to trust them and and actually it's not trust because they're your friends but it's having to go this feels just because something feels right it might not be right uh let the chemicals go through let the chemicals pass right go find a good book um why are we good at protecting our friends but not ourselves I think it's because we haven't got that chemical imbalance going on because if it's them because that's happening to them yeah but that that huge dopamine rush which feels a lot like love um and sometimes is and sometimes sadly isn't um they're not experiencing that so they're able to be rational and go okay I'm coming with this from a rational point of view and then obviously don't have a friend that's like well I don't want her not being single anymore because she's really good fun when she's single you have to have a friend that genuinely wants you to be happy yeah um i think that's why because they're not and you and you can kind of recognize it or you might have had similar experiences and gone okay well i'm not going to say absolutely not full stop i'm going to say just you need to slow it down a bit is it

32:59Dr Carly Jones MBE:possible for an audi hd woman to be abused in a social context in other words from people that she perceives to be friends but actually they're walking over her and taking advantage of her kindness absolutely i think we see that quite clearly even probably before we've been secondary school and a lot of um autistic women or adhd women and and boys as well um friendships start to change around about nine or ten and sometimes if a parent was to message me and go my daughter and they don't give any age range and say you know she was doing all right with friendships it's all fallen apart and i'll go she in year six of primary school and i go how did you know i'm like it's just the age it happens something happens this kind of drift between uh neurodivergent and neurotypical girls because it's like they're talking behind your back stuff which to us is like i'll just say it to my face you know um and and the dynamics change in in that part so that happens and as we kind of get older it's it can be very very tricky for people because it might be you okay so I want to have a friend or society says I need to have x amount of friends and particularly in secondary school you know um to be popular I have to do this or or I can't be seen not to have any friends and it's almost like well actually this friendship is actually really unhealthy for me um however I'd rather have this really unhealthy friendship relationship than be completely on my own.

34:29So it's friendship at any cost. And there's gender dynamics around that as well, which can be very, very challenging because it might be, well, this boy has been my friend and I really like this boy being my friend. All of a sudden he's now boyfriend because from their perspective it might be, well, she obviously fancies me, she'd be hanging around me for ages. Actually just really like being your friend. And then it's like, well, well, do I go along with it? Because do I go along with this? Because actually, it's better to go along with that, even though I'm not really into it, because it's better than being alone.

35:07And I think loneliness has got a lot to answer for in that. And also those kind of societal expectations of, well, you're in your 20s, aren't you going out to the pub every night, you know, on the clubs or, oh, you're in your 30s, shouldn't you be married? And shouldn't you be doing this? And, you know, and all of these kind of things. So there's that society expectations which can make us quite vulnerable to that i've known some horrific one of the worst ones i've known of um it's cuckooing um and do you know what cuckooing no explain what that is so it's it's a term often used by um by the police and and safeguarders and it's after the cookie bird which will go into a nest that's not his kick out all the chicks to take over the nest not a very nice bird actually i'm sorry bad lovers out there um and i i'm but in on a human in a human way so um what these particular people will do will um find a home isn't theirs um let uh pretend to be completely in love and sometimes even not move themselves in essentially throw everything up in the air just because they want to have that particular house that that particular lifestyle or whatever and I know of a woman oh gosh it was awful she um lived alone she had a disabled child and this man had um moved in and she was like you know fantastic obviously the women's neurodiversion as well but a child had a physical disability and um started off lovely and within kind of six months her and her disabled physically disabled daughter were literally sleeping in a shoe cupboard he had the whole house for him for his friends for his hobbies for his um equipment that he used to have in the house uh having parties every night and they were in a shoe cupboard um and that was the cost of um of that social vulnerability and also well this is better than being alone and it's absolutely heartbreaking and and the woman did get out of it and her child growl of it but it was yeah horrendous I mean she this particular woman um she married him a charity support her to get that annulled it was horrendous horrendous and that's obviously a very extreme case it could be as simple as oh um I've got these friends but um I'm always the one that pays when we go out yeah and you know what I'm all for feminism and I'm all for everything being 50 50 but I've also been in in relationships or in dating situations where it's like it's interesting I'm the only one that ever pays but that's maybe that's because I'm really independent woman

37:59Dr Carly Jones MBE:that's truly heartbreaking and in that woman's example I mean when she got the awareness and was able to retrospectively look back at that situation who does she blame because even though there's a clear villain there the guy who was doing the cuckooing is there a tendency to even with that clarity of who the villain is to blame yourself i think for for this particular woman it was primarily getting over the heartache of it because there's part of you that wants to hold on to that you know wants to hold on to that uh first good six months first good year thinking he can get back to that and we don't know often be that social imagination or just be that blind face or be that trauma bonding um trauma bonding and neurodivergency goodness me what a petri dish um going the old things will get better things will get better just a face things will get better and it's not until it's so bad that you're like and now i can't get out of it because i've got no friends left you know um my where's my support team and again going back to why um all of us as neurodivergent people need to have some really good friends around us to be quite blunt but also within that going okay i'm going to say this but i'm also going to give you this to help you come and stay in mind for a bit come and do you know those sort of things It's very good for us just going, no, don't do that.

39:38Well, how are you going to support me? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. You actually have to back that up with going, here's a plan.

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40:20Dr Carly Jones MBE:It's built to adapt to your neurodivergent way of thinking and be flexible to your way of planning. And now it's even more simple with the AI planning assistant. A simple voice prompt when you have to plan something, and the new AI planning assistant smoothly transcribes it into an easily digestible list of instructions to guide you. Give it a go and use the link in my bio for 30 % off. Just a note though, this code is only applicable on the web browser, not on the smartphone. Back to the show. Is it part of the journey post-diagnosis or post-awareness and recognizing that you are neurodivergent?

40:55Dr Carly Jones MBE:Is there a huge amount of self-forgiveness that goes on when you retrospectively look back and see some of the decisions that you made particularly if you have a tendency of blaming yourself i think i think that's probably the most vital part of a diagnosis or at least self self-awareness self-identification if we all know diagnosis is a is a huge privilege um is being able to kind of put those new lenses on so okay that wasn't you know i'm not a bad character or that's not my shame to carry or yes I that was difficult um but now to learn from it and and move on I often think about particularly masking and after a diagnosis and trying to get back to your authentic self and there's a great quote I don't know who said it it was on the internet could have been anyone um but there's a great quote that says um remember who you are who you were before the world got its hands on you i love that just kind of who am i and you need time alone to really think about that and to remember that um and and it's a bit like buying a house buying an old house after diagnosis you get these keys and you open the door and uh you look at the wallpaper think oh i'm not really sure i like that wallpaper this was always meant to be your house right it was like a dream house dreamt for this house since childhood open the door don't like the wallpaper i'll take that off oh gosh there's another layer of wallpaper under it take that off and you finally get past all these different layers down to the bare bricks of this house you know why would anyone plaster board and wallpaper on that look at those exposed beams look at those bricks this house is fine just it's better than fine it's beautiful just as it is and that to me is how unmasking and i don't think my own masking's finished yet but that to me is how it felt post-diagnosis going why were those layers of wallpaper put on there to please the next owner to go with a certain trend to um so and so's got that wallpaper so i better have it because that's the thing that everyone does so i better fit in and actually like as fine as it is what on earth and i think the longer it is before you either self-identify or get your diagnosis as um of neurodivergency it can the more layers the more exhausting, the more tears, the more revisiting you have to do.

43:19Does the amount of grief go up the later you're diagnosed?

43:23Dr Carly Jones MBE:Do you think, oh my gosh, I have lost so many years to masking? I was diagnosed at 32 and I can remember thinking, oh yeah, I'll probably be able to unmask in maybe like six months or something. But actually, if you've been doing something for 32 years, or at least you know i'm pretty sure i was masked by the age of about three or four from some hilarious stories from my mother um i think i think so yeah so i think with masking as well though not to see it as the enemy although it can have really significant impacts on on our on our well-being um because i struggle with that social imagination and and kind of knowing that social vulnerability and I don't mind using vulnerability some people don't like the word I don't mind using about myself um masking could be my friend because the moment that I notice that I'm really masking I don't have a gut instinct I just don't I rely on facts and fact finding at work it makes me really hyper vigilant and to do doing the right thing and making doing due diligence because I'm not just going to naturally have a feeling I'm going to go what I need to no black and white show me everything it's good at work personally I can't go right I'm going to uh ring your ex-partner and ask for a reference this might not be very reliable um so so work in personal life not and so instead of that gut feeling I can't predict that but now I know a lot more about myself and how I mask the minute that I'm starting to notice that I'm masking that's become my gut feeling because I wouldn't be masking if I didn't feel safe and accepted therefore I probably need to leave so I've kind of gone right I can't get rid of this masking thing but I can make it my friend because I'm going to put it to work.

45:10Dr Carly Jones MBE:Very interesting one of the key drivers or motivators for masking seems to be to be almost bulletproof and invincible or at least shielded from RSD if I put out this version that's different to the inner child, the version of me that's been told 20 ,000 times that I'm too sensitive, not enough, too much, too dramatic, then I almost protect myself from criticisms. RSD is brutal. It's a big conversation at the moment. How have you had RSD been described to you by people in the community? So other friends and colleagues who are diagnosed ADHD and either aren't autistic or don't quite yet have that diagnosis, she says, winking and nudging.

45:59the way they've described it is, you know, that kind of sense of what's the point of even putting that job application in or that promotion in, what's the point? Or I couldn't bear it if it was a no. So I'll just stay stagnant where I am because it feels safer. Or I won't, you know, on the negative side. But then also on the plus side, with that kind of rejection, and I've obviously struggled with that myself, the way that I I I'm gonna lie if I say that I've sorted it I haven't um because what I'll do is go I'm gonna apply for everything and I don't care if I get rejected um I'm just gonna you know the 10 % rule if you apply for 100 things you'll get 10 if you apply for a thousand you'll get 100 you know all of that kind of and I and I that's the kind of lie that my ego does but actually my inner child um is I'm gonna apply for it and I'm gonna self-sabotage it by by applying for something else I'm going for that so then I wouldn't have the time even if they did so I haven't got over it I've just learned to go to the next level of um you know feel the fear and do it anyway and then self-sabotage it so it doesn't happen um and I if I apply for roles and I know it's a big jump I know I can do it and that's not out of um arrogance it's out of I've done this work before but not under this label I know I can do it and I'll send my covering letter to some really trusted colleagues of mine that are already at that level and I'll say what do you think and they're like you've just literally spoken badly about yourself for the first three things and I was like oh that's because I just wanted to be honest and they're like no you're not honest in a in a job interview you don't have to be that honest I'm like oh okay um or I've been in interviews where it's been down to the last two and and somebody asked him it was about safeguarding and uh I really wanted this job anyway the panel said to me you know there's you and there's the person in the waiting room why why should we pick you and I said well I just care about this role so much I want the best person for the job if I'm not the best person then please bring the other person in to do to have this job and they did but I was just being honest you know but also I was being honest but I was also self-sabotaging because I couldn't fight for myself that's where I need to kind of of bring in my trusted tribe.

48:24I can't really call them guide dogs. That would be probably not the good thing. But that's kind of, you know, to come in and go, she's not going to say anything nice about herself. So we're going to do it. I don't think that will ever change. Yeah.

48:37Dr Carly Jones MBE:Is that a representation of the push and pull and the many internal contradictions that can come with having an all-DHD mind? I suppose on one hand, you've got like the impulsivity of the ADHD and the, oh, that person perhaps said I couldn't do something so I'm going to now make it my entire personality to prove them wrong and you you go for it you you you in the moment apply for that job but then the other part of your brain takes over after some time has passed and you get very anxious and perhaps as you said you self-sabotage is that an example of that push and pull that can come with having the complexities of an all dhd mind um absolutely I'm so glad you mentioned the push and pull uh I often describe it's having to wake up and deciding if I'm going to be autistic or hyperactive today because my routine hates my hyperactive side and my hyperactive side hates my routine so I just have to be quite transferable in in those and and that push and pull as well think about vulnerability in relationships yeah so a lot of toxic relationships start with that that push and pull push and pull push and pull to get you addicted if your brain is like that every day that's just normal yeah just like ah this relationship understands my brain i've got to come out of this with no hair completely traumatized and in tears but actually dopamine's kicking so i'm really glad you mentioned the push and pull because that was on my my notes of things to say and now i've forgotten the question yeah hyperactivity's taken over i think you answered it perfectly i think it was a brilliant example i think i was going to ask you what what problems that push and pull could create but i think you've set the stage perfectly with with with the relationship example and have you do you know anyone who's had that who might be undiagnosed or not aware that they are or dhd or perhaps just adhd or autistic and like those push and pulls have caused such a crisis that actually it's been that point of crisis that's led them to seek an assessment for being neurodivergent yes yes i have um uh i have seen that um and i've seen that end in somebody going to for support to the doctors where it's evidently this double neurotype push and pull for them to come out with some extremely powerful antidepressants um and it's like no no no what what the sadness and the confusion that this person having is because this push and pull needs some support this is it's almost like having a flower they're only seeing the petals they're not seeing the root cause and and that's very very tricky um particularly for our waiting lists as well and people to be in that absolute crisis before that being recognized either by them or by people that are are trying to take care of them um yeah really it's really really sad absolutely push your limits train with precision see the results at equinox that's high performance loving iconic spaces that inspire personal training backed by real data unlimited group fitness classes from yoga and pilates to strength and conditioning elevate your post-performance ritual with saunas steam rooms cold plunges and more everything you need to lock in and unlock your potential at equinox start today at equinox.com

52:01Dr Carly Jones MBE:85 % of the viewers and listeners of this podcast Carly are are women and many have been let down and feel really angry at the fact that they were missed for so long why do you think women have been let down and missed for so long in this conversation um great question it's very much that kind of male I mean psychology as a whole has been very male-centric for millennia I don't know when psychology started whenever it started it's it's been quite male-centric i think also as women you know we go to you know if i went into the gp and i've got a broken leg they'd be like okay and when was your last period i don't know what periods are like the the epicenter of all our ailments um which which is always quite entertaining or or you know if you're um a slightly bigger woman you go into the hot spot of a broken arm have you considered losing weight no oh, I've just got a broken arm.

52:56And I don't know why. I don't think that generally happens to men. So for women, it's always probably an us problem, I think, just medically. So definitely. And also that gender, societal gender roles. You know, if you've got a neurodivergent girl that comes home from school, runs upstairs and reads gets into bed and reads matilda you'll be like oh how studious if a boy was going right must go upstairs read my book and all his friends are outside playing football like come on you know so it's kind of those expectations and i think also um for women and girls the the expectation to be the fixer the expectation to keep the peace the expectation to there's different expectations growing up I believe for a sister as opposed to a brother and a lot of that can also I think lead us to our neurodivergencies looking different I think there's a lot of things and also the diagnostic tools being completely skewed towards younger males and not necessarily for women.

54:18And I think neurodivergent people, we're all fixers, actually. Some of us, regardless of gender, some of us might be technicians, some of us might be engineers, some of us are psychologists, some of us are nurses or volunteers. So sometimes people are fixing things literally. Some people are fixing the social fabric of the world. saw this great thing again online i must get a life um and it said uh and it's really kind of stereotypical and i actually really like trains because i work for department transport but um it's it was like what do autistic men want and it said trains what do autistic women want complete judicial and police reform and i was like yeah nailed the head i've probably got both of

55:03Dr Carly Jones MBE:those how big of a difference do you think having a a diagnosis or just an awareness makes to somebody's journey because i've spoken to many neurodivergent people in pre-diagnosis they struggled with addiction bad relationships and post-diagnosis they had an awareness and then they were able to start making changes and mitigate some of the challenges and life got considerably better how severe can that pre-diagnosis car crash compared to the post-diagnosis clarity how extreme can those two get i i believe it can be black and white day and night but then i would say that as a black and white thinker right but um but all this insight this is it you get the insight to go okay well i would think like that because that's my neurotype and i i think it's it's so so important because you can you can ask for support you can ask for help you actually know what you're dealing with you've got a word for it whatever that word or words may be um very very important but it's really also important that self-awareness self-identification i believe it's a human right that people get their diagnosis but let's just say diagnosis didn't exist right hopefully that'll never happen but let's just say they don't um you're still protected by law so the equality act 2010 is needs led not diagnosis led you don't legally need a diagnosis or to show your diagnosis which is quite good because mine's about the size of yellow pages i think um to to someone to get those reasonable adjustments at work those reasonable adjustments in education so from a very logical this is my autism side my very logical part of my brain don't feel that it's going to be a magic wand and don't wait for that support don't wait to ask for those reasonable adjustments my uh other side of my brain would say you you need to know because then you can kind of put up for yourself and that emotional that emotional side you need to know and that's why I think it's it can completely change and say yeah I when I was diagnosed I sent a bunch of flowers to my doctor and said thank you for the first day of the rest to my life and it was absolutely was there's still been vulnerabilities and and and horrible experiences past post-diagnosis but you know what it didn't go on for years it was I'm out this is done I learned boundaries I learned what you know I learned everything because I knew and um and I was very very lucky to have a great doctor so it's it saves lives yeah have you got any advice Carly for for somebody watching or listening who is going through that moment of clarity now perhaps they've known for some time that they are all dhd and then they're going through that new journey now of realizing actually autism is there too any emotional advice for somebody dealing with that transition i think it depends on the age as well i hear from a lot of teenagers really sadly that you know um autism's become like this derogatory term in the playground and they're quite happy to talk about their adhd amongst their peers but they're not going to tell them that they're autistic as well because that's kind of seen as weird whereas ADHD um in in the playground is is not seen as weird and sometimes a bit cool you know and not say it's trendy it's very difficult dating or not but so I think if either they've got that and they don't feel that they can talk about that or they don't know that they're autistic as well yeah um just be really really kind to yourself um and with their maybe one day we'll know but is it kind of 70 overlap between autism and adhd something like that yeah you're not going to be the only one of your adhd friends that finds out a couple of years later you're autistic in fact perhaps maybe 70 of them you're not going to be alone in that and I still get I think I'm quite good at spotting a fellow autistic or ADHD actually I always get it the other way around so either I'm really good at it and they don't know yet or I'm really bad at it and I just get it the other way around so I'm like oh you're autistic right now I'm ADHD what do you think some of the biggest tells are if someone's speaking to you and you think you're or ADHD oh okay yeah I can't say body language because I'm really bad at reading that.

59:37Normally, if we start a conversation and we're both at the same time having a moving conversation, but we're both at some points bringing our special interest back into that conversation. I'm like, there's some autism, isn't there? And I actually really enjoy that because I love being around other autistic people with special interest because I'm like I've just learned loads and I like in friendships or working relationships to either be the student or the teacher otherwise we're just breathing the same air how dull I'd much rather be going right tell me everything about this thing that you're really into oh my gosh that's so cool or similarly have someone that's going tell me everything about this and I love that you know I love that that learning it's exciting it feels like it's got purpose um sometimes uh kind of like a lot of stimming going on sometimes people that hold pens i'm joking diet coke is another one i shouldn't say a brand name fizzy cola if i tell people if i just say coke it's gonna be a really bad edit right oh yeah coke um those it's like really weird things It's nothing that would be scientifically measurable.

1:00:53It's just, it's really, really odd things. And if it's in women, although I actually don't have this special interest, although I do work in it as well, there's too many jobs. The minute someone says horses to me, I'm going, here we go. Everything's matching. It's horses. Horses, I think for younger girls could be like the top of the diagnostic list. Do you like horses? Yep. Okay. Right. All done. um it's those sort of things uh there's so many but they're like really weird obscure things