Leading ADHD Clinician Reveals Scariest Side Of ADHD | Ms. Danielle Mulligan

0:00Danielle, thank you so much for joining us.

0:02Danielle Mulligan:Thank you for having me. It's a huge privilege to have you here. You've assessed thousands of people for ADHD. So I'm sure you'll agree that some major pain points of ADHD are feeling lost, isolated, misunderstood, useless, difficult, unloved, unlovable, all really sad terms. So a very important question to start. Why do you think it's common for people with ADHD to feel these? so I think it's common for them to feel it because a lot of the time they they can mask a lot of things they can hide and think it's normal for them because it's all they've ever known so they can go through life sort of thinking yeah but I've never known any different so this is who I am and this is how it defines me until they sort of get a diagnosis of ADHD and understand more I think it can be such it can be such a negative you find a lot of people with ADHD have such low self-confidence and self-esteem because of all those things and because they just think that's the norm and that's how they're going to crack on with things and that they've just got to just move along and they've just got to understand that the world's against them a lot of people feel and which is actually super super sad to think about because I think it's not a nice way to feel like that every single day and I think in terms of like why they feel like that I think it's because you know they're just programmed to go through the day they're programmed to understand that you know they can't do certain things but they don't know why they can't do certain things and then if you go and you're paying for something at the shop and you forgot your wallet you just think you're stupid and when you don't understand why you've done that it's just such a negative experience and it's such a sad experience for everyone um that i think it's it's hard for them to understand that whole journey when they do get a diagnosis to know that they weren't they weren't that stupid person they weren't lazy i don't know if you ever were called that yourself before your diagnosis in terms of oh you're just lazy or you're just you're just stupid and people say well i'm not I'm not stupid I'm not lazy and I think it's it's really hard world to live in for someone that functions in a different way I think everyone's trying to make the world fit everyone in one way similar to the education system I think you can't make everyone fit in one box and I think it's hard when people don't realize that they don't fit in that box if that makes sense it makes total sense i suppose living with undiagnosed adhd is living in a constant state of feeling like you're just about keeping your head above water it's just you it's just you that feels like that because everyone's got it together and everyone else thinks you're an expert swimmer because you appear to be turning up on time getting that work on the surface exactly so who are you What's your mission in the world of ADHD?

3:04Danielle Mulligan:So my mission is to get as many people assessed as quickly as we possibly can, but not to rip people off. So I came to Focused because Focused is an affordable service. So they came and approached me and I approached them and they said, we want you to support our service and build our service. And we don't understand why everybody charges what they charge. So I've worked in other private services where it's like, what,£900 an assessment? And I actually had an experience where I was in an assessment with a lady and she told me how she got a loan out for the assessment. And I was absolutely mortified because I felt it was my fault.

3:46Danielle Mulligan:And it wasn't my fault. It wasn't my company. It wasn't my issue. But then we know that finances and ADHD don't marry up very well. so the fact that she'd taken this five year loan out that I was then panicking she wouldn't be able to pay off which was nothing to do with me absolutely broke my heart and from going to the NHS to working privately and then having that experience and I was like I don't think this is right we shouldn't be ripping people off because she'd made this huge decision to do this huge life step like you must remember that time when you were making that decision to be assessed it's not a decision that comes lightly to anyone and it's a huge decision to make to then have to get a loan out to make that decision and then I so I've got me questioning about you know why are lots of private companies so expensive and why is it so hard for people to make a decision that's going to completely change their life but then they're getting financially distressed from it and then luckily I was in a position where focused was sort of being born and and their sort of morals were exactly the same and they were like why why are they so expensive why why are people charging like 500 pounds 900 pounds thousands of pounds in some cases like what is the need for this and then obviously their mission was to create an affordable service to reach as many people as possible to help people find that clarity they need to move on with their life to to figure things out to understand themselves to to process everything to make sense of everything um and that's sort of what moved me over to focused and I was very pleased that they sort of had the same morals as me and they developed this amazing system that where they can we can keep the price slow we can get the assessment done we can make that journey seamless for the people of adhd and reach as many people as possible and so i think my mission is to i don't want people waiting i don't think you should wait you know five years is such a huge amount of time and to understand what's going on for yourself it's a truly brilliant mission and i feel like when someone comes for an adhd assessment or they want to get assessed they're at a real crisis point a real critical point and then they're often hit with a huge weight or a huge bill um out of the people you've assessed at focused you must have seen a huge difference in emotions post-diagnosis how people react to hearing that news often after years and years and years of feeling misunderstood being told that they're too sensitive and not understanding why what emotions have you seen people express after receiving a diagnosis of ADHD?

6:33Danielle Mulligan:I have a lot of people cry. So recently I've had a lady who just burst out crying on the phone. And it was more because for the first time something made sense. And I think you might have felt like when someone says, you know, you've got ADHD, it's the first time she sort of went and knew I wasn't stupid. And she was sort of thinking of her younger self and how her life could be so different if this had been sooner um she was a lady in her 40s so she'd gone a huge like chunk of her life just just treading water paddling you know being that beautiful swan um but absolutely just treading water underneath um and she just cried for a good half an hour um and I just was there and I was just being with her in the moment and saying no it's okay to be sad you're okay to be sad for your younger self I've had people shout at me I've had people not blame me but sort of shout at me because they're upset that it hasn't been caught sooner and their emotions which are difficult for them to regulate anyway um is to just be angry and they're angry at the parents they're angry at the process they're angry at the fact that their life could have been so different and I've had people have that relief that it thank goodness it makes sense like I was more scared you were going to tell me that I didn't have ADHD rather than the fact that you've told me I've got it so it really really varies it really varies and I think it all like is that feedback session I tend to have with my patients I tend to make sure that we have that time to process and I always say you know this is the start of your journey like you're going to go on this heck of a journey now of understanding you know you didn't forget that bread at the shop you know it just wasn't on your list and you know your whole relationships like everything the way you do your work the way you structure your days everything is going to be so different for you because you're going to understand what's why you do what you do and so I often make our feedback sessions quite lengthy to make sure that they can I can be there to help them process that emotion that can be sometimes super intense because as people with ADHD you feel emotions way more intensely anyway and so to be make sure that you're there to support that patient in that moment is really important for me as a clinician and I will sit and I will just let them cry and I'll say it's fine just cry you can cry do you want a tissue do you want a brew do you want a biscuit like it's absolutely fine to sit and cry and be upset and I've had patients that have said I didn't want you to say that I had it and I'm like why did you not want me to say you have it like so you've got the exact opposite of that relief you've got that disappointment and people go but I didn't want to have anything wrong with me I wanted you to say oh no you just you know you don't have it you know it's the awareness that's on social media and things like that in the public that made you think you might have it but you're just absolutely normal so I've had people be upset that they've got a diagnosis um which is an unusual response sometimes because you expect that relief more than you expect that disappointment um but yeah a lot of the time some people will say you know i was sort of hoping you said i was fine and i'm like well you are fine you're absolutely fine you can still function exactly the same way as everyone else in the sense of you can be still be super successful in your career you can still you've just got to do it slightly differently to everybody else um so yeah huge range of emotions i feel like there's a point at someone's life with adhd way back in the past most of us won't remember it where we realized that we were different and from that point on we put on a mask and changed who we were i'll try to fit in with everybody else yes you try and look like everyone else exactly and when you get the diagnosis at whatever age that come you're you want to desperately go back in time to that point and put your arms around that younger version of yourself and say you are not broken you are different you are enough do not abandon your true self in order to satisfy because you've lost yourself as well when you put in that mask up haven't you you you're lost a little bit do you think in the life is a quest for happiness do you think a diagnosis equals happiness i don't know if it equals happiness but i think it it gives you that that relief can give you happiness and i think that understanding can make things feel easier and I've had a patient recently actually who medication journey didn't quite work out for him and he sort of said to me but sometimes that diagnosis has just been enough for me because now I'm sitting back and as I'm processing the things I do on a day-to-day I'm going oh I do that because of this and I'm like well more likely yeah that's probably the reason why you do it and this is a symptom of ADHD that I've never noticed before because I thought it was just me but actually it's not me and and sometimes the diagnosis can be enough for people and I think is it happiness I don't think it's necessarily happiness but I think it's the journey towards that for people and I think it's a way for them to start rebuilding themselves and picking themselves up again because like you say you lost yourself when you were that got that point where you knew you were different and then you've got to pick yourself up and piece yourself back together again and I think that that's the start of the happiness journey for them so I think it's just one very large piece of the puzzle to start their journey to happiness but I think it can certainly help them feel clarity.

12:10I feel like there's so much shame associated with the ADHD experience like you you recognize that perhaps you do operate in a certain way that might go against the societal norm of how you've been told and there can be a lot of shame and you hide that you suppress it you betray your true self do you think there's a life event or a particular age where someone and seeks a diagnosis?

12:31Danielle Mulligan:See, I've seen a huge range of people. Because at first I would have said it was that sort of mid-30s back a few years ago I'd have said it was the 30 sort of zone. But I'm seeing younger and younger come through. So especially with being in focus, lots more people coming from uni than I would have expected. So sort of your early 20s. but I think that's down to the awareness on ADHD and I think people are understanding ADHD a little bit better and the symptoms are a bit more prominent so like social media is massive for ADHD isn't it like everyone's like oh do this quiz you've got ADHD and I think it is getting younger but as being a CAMS nurse previously as well I would say that we saw a lot of young primary school children as well so is there an exact age I don't know but I think I'm hoping it's getting picked up sooner for people um for their journey really like if you think if you'd have got your diagnosis younger what how much different would your life have been like your schooling your grades like everything leading up to that point um so I don't think there's an exact age but I think it's getting younger than it used to be.

13:50I remember really well one of my earliest criticisms or a comment that I had on a playground that cemented that suspicion that I might be unusual and that was someone said to me another kid you could be one of the cool kids Alex if you weren't so weird and I remember that day so well and I sort of retreated into the library after that and looked out the window and was so terrified to go play with the other kids after that. What common criticisms do you think ADHD people get throughout their life?

14:19Danielle Mulligan:Naughty. I hate the word naughty, especially younger children. Oh, they're just naughty. There's a naughty boy. They're a naughty girl. Sometimes with girls as well, they get told that they're just not interested in anyone else and they're just too independent. And I'm like, how can like a six-year-old child be too independent? Because what you tend to find, that presentation is slightly different, isn't it, in men and women? and you tend to find your younger girls they sort of push it down and hide things a little bit bit better sometimes or their hyperactivity is more internalized and i think they become oh she's a bit bossy or she's too independent uh but the i hate the word naughty that's a big one not it's just a naughty boy and they don't understand what that naughty looks like and weird i've had people be told or they just said that i was unusual or i was weird and i'm like yeah but why are you weird why do people find you weird like what does that mean um but i think that's they're there a lot of common ones bossy independent naughty i feel like this i feel like there's so many ways to call a child naughty even without using that word like stop fidgeting stop biting your fingernails sit down calm down why are you so weird with your hair exactly I feel like ADHD is almost, in a sense, it's death by a thousand cuts, a thousand and thousands of extra tiny micro criticisms that neurotypical kids just don't get as a result of our innate differences.

15:54Do you think that exposure to this tsunami of excess criticisms, how does that affect someone's self-esteem as they turn into an adult?

16:02Danielle Mulligan:Massive, I think. and a lot of time I spend with patients in adulthood is going through the fact that you know then their self-esteem doesn't exist it's so negative and they've got to then rebuild that um because I think it's it's really sad and it's all those tiny comments that people don't think about when they say them like and I think when you work in ADHD you're more cautious about what you're saying to people because you don't want to upset them but like in terms of the impact on self-esteem and in people with ADHD is absolutely massive because they've always been told Alex can you stop messing with your pet Alex can you just sit can you stop crossing your legs can you oh can you just stop doing all of this stuff and just be normal and no one knows what normal looks like and what even is normal I hate the word normal as well and I think that just because because then you hold on to that when you've got ADHD and you you process that and you think I've got to stop fidgeting I've got to stop doing this and you almost like zombify yourself a little bit and you become so external to what's going on and you isolate yourself because you don't want to be so different which is sad that people do that and it's sad that people feel like that and like you said you retreat to the library and you just sort of looked out the window and longed to be part of the popular group like please accept me for who I am and then thinking about how can I be accepted and like see completely changing your personality when you didn't need to do that but that's how you were made to feel um I think the self-esteem I think is one of the biggest hits for people with ADHD and yes workplace stress yes relationships there's so many different impacts in the ADHD journey but I think that you can't just build your self-esteem in a day by having some little points and say I'll look in the mirror and tell myself I'm amazing it's not going to work the first time you can get recommendations at work you can get requirements you can get things that you need to make your job better and you can sit down with your partner and make that sort of relationship a little bit easier but you can't build your self-esteem in a night and I think it's such a hard journey to go on of understanding that and building that up and again and going you do that because you've got ADHD ADHD isn't an excuse in why you're doing this but it's you just need to then figure out how to work this out and I think that is a huge thing for people.

18:23Danielle Mulligan:I don't know about your self-esteem if you felt that you had to rebuild that. It's certainly a lot better now, but I know for a fact that exposure to those 20 ,000 extra comments, like they turned, I think they create an adult that is so terrified of criticism. And anxious. And because you're so used to it, you perceive it when it's not there. Like you see danger, even if it's not real. Or you think nobody likes you, even when they've not even spoken to them. If someone invites you to a party and they say, come if you like, come if you like. What does that mean? Because it's not an absolute certain invitation.

19:00You think that your presence at that party is going to be a nuisance to them.

19:02Danielle Mulligan:Or they don't actually want to. They just said it because they were trying to be kind in front of everybody. Or they think that they hate you. It's a genuine, so much of this stuff doesn't compute often to the neurotypical mind. But it's so true for people with ADHD because of these early years exposure to criticism. and it creates rsd rejection sensitive dysphoria and for me it feels like an instant punch to the gut like someone's put in a dagger and twisted it it's excruciatingly painful my response to criticism i suppose out of the people that you've assessed at focused how have they described the feeling of rsd to you so they've they've described this like a roller coaster of emotion so they've describe like the tiniest insignificant event being the biggest of deals so like you say the mum saying can you just get some milk from the shop becomes the most intense situation and then they have a huge breakdown and like they're just like they can't do life they lock themselves away they can't do it can't and then parents like i've just asked you to get milk like just go next door to the corner shop and get some milk and and they're just that because it's not clear and like say that that structure is broken for them and I think a lot of people so part of what I try and understand is how intense that criticism is for them like if I said oh that's great but I sort of didn't want you to do that because people don't always think about what they say to people and I think having that that comment said to someone with ADHD they they overanalyze it and you're already going 100 miles an hour thinking every single thing and every event and every purpose event and every other event and every what if event that you become an anxious mess and I've met lots of patients in doing assessments where they are a nervous wreck and they're even nervous in the assessment about saying the wrong thing and I'm like there isn't a wrong answer this is about you like if that's what happened then that's what happened and they're like yeah but is that what you wanted and they question everything that they do and if that's what they do in an assessment what the heck are they doing in life they must be questioning every life event like oh should I put my bag in the car I'm not going to put my bag in the car maybe I should put my bag in the car and that must be exhausting absolutely exhausting and I think a lot of people have mentioned that just sheer exhaustion of just constantly worrying about everything all the time and your GPs put you on antidepressants because they don't know what to do and they've not really unpicked it all and they're just like well they don't work because I'm still worrying and then I shut my eyes at night time I think tomorrow's going to be a new day and then I worry about everything that happened when I was seven and I can't change any of that and it's and it's that whole journey I think that can be so because that's your day-to-day with ADHD that is life for them and I think because you are so sensitive to to that emotion I think you're sensitive to anything but sensitive to compliments if I say Alex your hair's really nice is my hair nice is she joking is it not nice have I done it differently have I put something different on and you can't even accept that compliment, never mind that criticism.

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23:19Just a note though, this code is only applicable on the web browser, not on the smartphone. Back to the show. The best defense for criticisms and rejections is to people please, I guess. Lots of people do that. To the extent maybe you could answer questions not honestly in assessments if they say how are you today and your knee-jerk reaction might be i'm fine but it's not them inside it's chaos and it's turmoil do you see a lot do you see can you

23:48Danielle Mulligan:see through that can you see through people i always do like a little settling in in assessments so i'll i'll explain the process and what's good and i'll be like all right so how what have you done this morning what's you and i try and and what i find with remote assessments that process is quicker so obviously focus is an online company and I've been doing remote assessments for about two three years now with different companies and I find that settling in period is quicker when they're in their own environment because they're safe like when you're coming into a hospital environment and then you have to sit down and you're like oh my gosh what's going on what they're going to ask me what they're going to do and then you're already super anxious already I think it's harder to have that little let's calm down let's relax but I always have a little minute of talking like if they drop the kids off at school I'm like oh like how long did that walk take or just talking about random things before flowing naturally into that assessment um because you can unpick a lot if they say oh well actually I've dropped the kids off late this morning what made you late like what was going on this morning that made you late to drop the kids off and that's all piecing into your assessment but then I think as the patient they they stop and they think okay okay, she's nice, Danielle, isn't she?

25:00Danielle Mulligan:She's lovely. She's asking me about my day and she's not putting any pressure on myself. And I'm feeling like I've just talked about my journey to school and actually from that journey, I picked up loads of stuff that's gone on that morning that I've gone, okay, so you were 20 minutes late to your assessment. Kids were late to school. You know, you've forgotten to put your packed lunch in your bag for work and you're picking loads of symptoms up from just that one little story. um so i find that that settling period is so important in the assessments because it's tough assessment it's a lot of questions i feel like women have it a lot harder i've spoken to so many experts and that seems to be the consensus or the common mantra that women generally struggle more with the adhd experience do you find that to be the case with the people you see so yeah and i find a lot of the time women are sort of misdiagnosed with sort of anxiety and depression I find a lot of the time people put oh you just worry all the time you're just a well you're a mum you're supposed to worry like and I find where the biggest maskers is us women and I think I don't know if it's an expectation we have on ourselves that we put this huge wall up to say you can't break you've got to keep it together but then if you've got then ADHD on top of that it's a lot harder to keep that together and I think the world makes it harder like the modern world I think makes it incredibly harder to to somewhat function in and I think women we're weird little species aren't we we're very we're very different in the sense of we develop a lot quicker and I think young girls hide their symptoms in schools I met little girls that when I did assessments in CAMS where they were the most over helpful little girls that teachers loved and no one had a bad word for them and they were like oh you know she's so lovely she always hands out the forms and the pencils and she always asks me what if there's any jobs that need doing but because that's so helpful nobody sees it as a problem whereas little johnny jumping on his chair is an issue because he's distracting the class but you know little susie giving out all them forms is beautiful because it helps the teacher and i think people don't understand that internal restlessness a lot in women and I think we don't understand it sometimes because you constantly felt to be that you have to be the stronger sort of person and you've got to keep it together and you know you've got to go to work you've got to see to the kids you've got to cook tea you've got to put that in a slow cooker oh don't forget about the washing but then amplify that with ADHD by million sort of extra things that are in your head about you know did you text your friend back are you supposed to be out for tea have you got this have you got that did you do this did you reply to that email it's even bigger on top of that and yes men also have those stresses but it feels like those stresses are way more on women and that expectation of like especially when I have a lot of people that come from having children and they say like I've just not I've not got it I've just not got this motherhood like I've just not getting it my friend's got a baby she's got it I've not got it why have I not got it why can't I do it and they try to understand that and it's like well I forgot to have my child's jabs that's terrible and I didn't want to forget that that was really important why did I forget that everyone's saying I'm sleep deprived and there's always an answer for women I think people always give us answers and say oh it's because of this oh it's because you're working too hard oh it's because the kids had you up all night and they never just say actually it's because there's something going on and I think it's taken a lot for people to understand that and to unpick that really in terms of why we do what we do.

28:44I had a fantastic psychiatrist on who he very confidently said ADHD women are the most stressed people in the whole world. Do you think there's any truth to that?

28:54Danielle Mulligan:In the whole world probably not. I think there's lots of things going on in the world that is a lot more stressful. in terms of the adhd world i would say they are probably a lot more stressed than an adhd male and i think that's just because they have that inter that it's the internal restlessness where you tend to find males have that external restlessness that like that internal restlessness is just massively amplified um for women and i think they're more prone to burnout i think burnout's massive in ADHD alone but I think it's your women that tend to burn out quicker because they take on way more than they should at home at work with the kids they want to do this and the people please is even bigger I think for females so I think males can people please as well I think like you said it's sometimes the natural response when you feel different to everyone but I think it's times a thousand because women have this sort of we can't let anyone down and that sort of motherhood sort of figure, like you want to mother hen everyone and you're sort of like, I can't let work down.

30:03Danielle Mulligan:I can't miss that deadline. And they just pile the stress and then they burn out and then they go off sick. And then they're like, why can I not handle it? It wasn't even that much. And I think, yeah, are they the most stressed in the world? I don't think they're the most stressed people in the world, but I think in the ADHD world, I would say they're a lot more stressed. You mentioned burnout there. what do you think at its very worst undiagnosed ADHD could look like in this modern world? So burnout in terms of lots of short-term jobs because they can't handle the roles that they're in and so they're jumping from job to job thinking they're the problem when actually it's not necessarily that they're the problem it's that the roles they're expected to do in the job is somewhat the problem if that makes sense um I think the modern world is it's changed so much as well and I think there's huge expectations on people so like for example if we stick with our sort of woman sort of topic we're expected to bring the kids up we're expected to work full time we're expected to make sure that the house is okay and it feels like there's so much more pressure in the world and I think before social media and before the world became more public it didn't feel as stressful because I didn't see what you were doing because I didn't know and I didn't know who you were and I didn't know what was going on and that was that whereas I think now you've got your Instagram sort of models as such that us going yeah I've got this together I've got ADHD and I'm looking after the kids and I'm going on holiday and it's like how are you doing all of that and they're just posting what they want you to see I think we're getting a few more real life sort of instagrammers sort of influencers as such that are giving us that real reality of what life is like but I think we post what people want to see don't we we don't post the reality and I think that makes it hard for people because you've really not got it together because they have and you don't even know who they are you're not even bothered like Beyonce's got these kids and that and the other and she's singing and touring and you can't even cook tea and I think it makes it even harder and it harder for kids as well as adults I think it makes it super hard because you never have a break you don't have a break from the world anymore you don't post the video of you tripping over the suitcase that you still haven't unpacked from two years ago or the returns from online purchases that you still haven't returned because it's just missed the return and the money that you've lost that's the reality and the shame that comes with all of that how important is it for someone to get a diagnosis as early as possible i think it's important to be as early as possible because i think the regret you have on sort of like little alex and all of the opportunities you might have missed i think is hard to deal with i think it's really hard to accept and I think it's really hard to sort of unpick the things that could have been and I think that can really impact sort of your mental health sometimes and I think if you can get a diagnosis a lot sooner I think it can help you understand you and it can help the world understand you and that's the hardest thing is that you can accept you do what you do and move on from it sometimes but the world is like well why does Alex do that or Alex needs to go back into tension and do this and I think you know we have to go to education for example you have to take your GCSEs you have to like the world makes it harder for us to be individual and I think if people can understand you as early as possible and sort of before that point where you go oh I'm different I think it's more beneficial to like the person's self-esteem to your well-being to your mental health to be able to go I'm not different this is like who I am and this is what what this is why I do what I do and then rather than having this whole self-discovery in your late 40s where you go oh okay yeah no that makes sense you sort of prevent that feeling different because nobody wants to feel different we all want to feel normal whatever normal is we want to feel it don't we and we all want to be included and involved and I think the earlier someone can understand as soon as that I feel different comes about as soon as they can sort of try and understand that I think that's a massive journey for them that they don't necessarily have to relive which can sometimes be really painful for people to relive as well what would you say your promise is to the neurodivergent world to help as much as I possibly can I would love to be able to say even if I don't think you've got ADHD I'd love to try and understand you know you don't come for an assessment for no reason and I think one one of the sort of statements I say in my assessments is you know if you haven't got ADHD and you don't meet the criteria you know I want to understand where I can get the help that you need whether you've got anxiety and depression and that's the cause of things or whether I think you might be autistic whatever it is that is perceiving to look like ADHD and I can't give you ADHD I want to be able to promise that I'll find you the help that you need because your journey has just started whether you get ADHD or not and that self-discovery is real and like I say to press that consultation button and go through answering questionnaires getting support from family members that whole journey is a massive journey and it takes a lot of guts to go and say there's something going on with me and I need to know what so to then for someone to say oh well it's not ADHD good luck in the future I think is a really dagger to the heart not nice feeling so the way I try and frame it to people is very much like okay so you don't meet the criteria for ADHD but this is the elements you did meet and this is what it could look like and this is where I think you should go next and like direct signpost to people that can help them and as a mental health nurse background obviously I've got a background of quite a lot of mental health even though I specialize in ADHD so I feel like it's important for them to say right I don't know what's in your local area but I will send you a script to talk to your GP and say I've had this this is what's been said go and get the support you need and direct them in the right place um and I think that's I've always been that person who has to help everyone all the time even at my own expense sometimes I think that's why I came to become a nurse because of that like sort of solution focused let's figure it out together but I would never want to leave someone just like with nothing because imagine coming for an assessment being told you haven't got ADHD and then go farewell have a good day that would be the worst feeling in the world like it probably sometimes even worse than being told you have ADHD in some sense because you know you know there's something wrong but you don't know what it is and a professional says well it's not this and it's like okay well what is it then and I think it's important to support them on that journey as far as I possibly can obviously I can't go all psychiatrist mode and say oh I think you've got bipolar but I can direct you to a place to support with what I think is going on and I think that's really important part of the journey as well I want to move on Danielle to my favorite part of the show and that is the ADHD item reveal your item has been patiently waiting underneath this cloth throughout our entire wonderful chat.

37:35Every week I ask the guests to bring in an item that most represents ADHD. And I'm going to reveal yours now.

37:46That is a Rubik's Cube. A Rubik's Cube. Why does a Rubik's Cube represent ADHD?

37:52Danielle Mulligan:Because when it's going well, it's beautiful. When it's not going so well, it's hard to get that beautiful again. And I think when you muddle that Rubik's Cube up, which I sort of don't want to do because I'll never get it back that for me can sometimes represent you know the worst parts of ADHD you're trying to get them colors all back to normal and you just absolutely can't and you don't know which way to spin it and you go in and you go in but then when it's beautiful it looks stunning and everything's going great and I think that's for me a lot of the time how I can represent ADHD as an item is you know you can jumble that up and that's been your life and when you get a diagnosis sometimes it goes beautiful and then it gets jumbled up again and then you might start medication journey and it might go beautiful again or you might get one side that's beautiful and the other sides might not be quite beautiful and I think that is a beautiful representation of an ADHD mind.

38:48What do you think of the word deficit in the name ADHD? Do you think deficit's appropriate?

38:53Danielle Mulligan:I don't really like it. I think it feels quite like a negative word because it feels like I'm saying there's something missing from you and I think the way I like to frame ADHD is that actually you you do things in such a unique way that actually I'm jealous sometimes that you've got ADHD because you'll do something a hundred times better than me and I might do things a hundred times better than you and I think when we say deficit we've I think it's like it's really negative word it feels like a really horrible word to say like you're missing something you've not got what you need um but then i don't know what we'd put in its place it's a big job isn't it to try and change the four letters i think difference rather than deficit because i know with like autism they change the disorder to condition um to try and make it sound a little kinder i suppose um so maybe we need to consider our deficit word who even makes that decision who can change that we seem to have an abundance of attention rather than a deficit of attention when we find something that truly interests us oh yeah you can be well too too on it like on it to the point you don't sleep and eat exactly like it can be way too far um but it's that like imbalance of attention isn't it like you've either got it some days and some days you've not and i could give you a task and say can you write all this stuff down you go no danielle i'm not going to do that but then you might say oh i'm just doing this task and you could spend three days on it so it's that imbalance of attention isn't it and when you've got the attention and someone interrupts you it can be very infuriating and yeah because you need to eat i don't need to eat i need to finish this i want to move on to audience questions uh briefly danielle which is called the washing machine of woes because my adhd item is a washing machine because i always forget my clothes in the machine after the cycle finishes.

40:47You're not the only one.

40:48Danielle Mulligan:Yes, thank you. You're not the only one. Do you do that? So I don't do that, but my husband does that. And a lot of patients will tell me that that's the biggest thing that irritates the partners is that they'll put the washing in and it'll stay there for three days and then they have to rewash it. And it's the ADHD test because there's more money to do the cycle again. But I have been using the Timo app. There's a productivity app and they've helped me get a little bit better at remembering to empty the machine. this week someone has written in and asked oh this is a long one i am a teacher at a school for 13 to 18 year olds and i swear that so many of the students have adhd which is making them fall behind however other teachers aren't interested and neither are the parents how can i a be sure that a pupil has adhd and b covertly urge them to seek a diagnosis of some sort or at least get their parents to care?

41:42Danielle Mulligan:Wow that is a question isn't it? So they're a teacher and they feel a lot of pupils have got ADHD. I suppose a way that they can somewhat track some of these pupils would be to understand what tasks they're doing well in, what tasks they're not doing well in. Do they have to have somewhat like written instructions down? So does she have to go out of a way to be able to write down task one task two task three put it in front of them so they're able to complete it how much extra support do these people need and then when they get their parents evenings that she could feed that back to the parents to help understand that she's gone out of her way and that that's not the norm for the teacher to do um because a lot of understanding adhd is is building the evidence of symptoms and they have to be evident in more than two settings so as an education that's one setting but then if there's lots of examples and lots of symptoms for some of these children I think she's got a duty of care to hand that over to parents she can't tell them what to do but I suppose she could explain the understanding of the impacts that's going to have like a lot of our conversation today has been around that self-esteem and the worst time for that to kick in is teenage years because you're on the self-discovery of hormones and everything's going sort of different for you and if ADHD is a problem for them that's when they're going to start feeling really really different so I would say see what support these pupils need document this support that that's happening whether it's more time extra explanation written down instructions um if they're more hyperactive than normal um and feed that back to parents and explain that you feel it could be something and see where that conversation could go because I think it as a parent and from working with parents you're sometimes blind to what's going on with your own children you don't really want to see what's going on with your own children and you don't want to believe there's a problem if there is and I think if she had the physical evidence I think that could sometimes support parents to go oh no that's not good is it I need to sort of understand this in a bit more deep where can i go to get help and that might be handy for them to have the next steps for if a parent realizes that they need to get help or if the actual pupil wants help because some people don't and it's one of those especially in any mental health as well as adhd if you don't want help yourself and you don't want to change yourself you don't want to understand yourself it's a pointless journey sometimes you've got to have that something's going on please help me drive as such do you ever get a child that perhaps wants or thinks that they have adhd but their parents don't think it's a real thing or they don't want to put a label so i've had a lot of adults in assessments that have told me this that they've said like there's adhd in the family for example and their mum's gone oh that it's just an excuse and i think especially there's a generation of people of parents that don't think ADHD is a real thing and I think we've all been there at one point before we learned about it before we understood it before we researched it we've all been a what's ADHD um I think my first experience of that was when I saw I was working on a ward on a young person was on stimulants which is a huge deal to be on a stimulant medication never mind at like 13 years old and I think I was like well why are they on stimulant that is that's a big thing to be on and it took two nurses to sign out and administer and and I was like she looks fine what's she on a stimulant for without having that understanding of ADHD and that's the start of my journey into ADHD was that patient um who's probably in her 30s now bless her um and it was more like why are you on this medication what does this medication do why is it a controlled drug why is two nurses signing out why are you taking it when you look absolutely fine because you take it is why you look fine is what I've learned sort of in my ADHD sort of career but I suppose it's yeah it's one of those things that we've all been we've all had a moment where we've said it's just an excuse without having the understanding and I think like I say there's this cohort of parents especially in your older sort of adults where they've gone I don't want my parents fill out any information because they don't think I've got ADHD.

46:10Danielle Mulligan:And then when you say, well, what's their understanding of ADHD? And they just think it's that naughty boy. And I'm like, well, do you want to help your parents understand what it is? And a lot of the time they just say no because it's a lot of effort and mum's really stubborn. Mum's really stubborn. Our mum's potentially got undiagnosed ADHD as well because there's always that beautiful pattern that goes on in the families. So, yeah, and I think it happens with children now as well. I think there are some parents that don't. I think there's two. You've either got parents that push and push and push for a diagnosis that isn't there.

46:45Danielle Mulligan:And you've got parents that just don't really want to understand. And I think there's a huge education that needed both sides. I've got something for you. It's a letter that was written by the previous guest. Okay. Where they wrote a letter to their younger self. And it ties in quite nicely to what we were discussing earlier. Danielle, I deliver you the letter. okay so to my younger self don't be ashamed of how you perceive the world and what you find fun in eventually all this geeky stuff will be cool also look carefully for people's real selves don't get thrown off by masks be kind to yourself above all wow that's really nice that's quite deep too as well isn't it truly fascinating danielle on behalf of everyone watching and listening grappling to understand how their brain works.

47:36Thank you very much.

47:36Danielle Mulligan:Thank you very much for having me.

47:41Some exciting news. I've partnered with an online ADHD assessment clinic called Focused. Together, we're running a short survey asking questions about people's experiences with ADHD. People who complete the survey and leave their email address can be entered into a prize draw to win£100 in Amazon vouchers. You'll find a link to complete the survey in the episode description. Also, if you're looking for an ADHD assessment, you can use the code chatter when checking out to get a discount on their assessment fee.