Oxford Educated ADHD Expert Shares 3 Risks Of Undiagnosed Female ADHD | Sarah Warley

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30:30Back to the episode. So interesting. I think people with ADHD are brilliant entrepreneurs. I just, I truly believe that. But I think you have to have the encouraged to almost push back against the fear of the criticisms that you might get from those nearest to you. How else do you think you can spot a neurodiverse adult, someone who has been misunderstood when they were younger? How does that manifest as an adult? What behaviors might give that away? Well, to talk about those behaviors, I'd probably have to talk about some of the other underlying contributing factors to an ADHD presentation. But first of all, you've got the emotional, the behavioural that you talked about.

31:18So you've got the, you know, difficulty with criticism, imposter syndrome, lacking self-confidence, you've got all of that. But I would also be looking at other things like how they move. I'd be looking at their posture. I'd be looking at your posture. I'd be looking at... What's my posture telling you? Well, actually, I was like, you know, I mean, obviously the fidgeting and that, you know, I'd be looking at that. I'd be looking at how someone sits. I'd be looking at how they walk. I'd be looking at whether or not they recoil from loud sounds. There are loads of other facets, which I'd be looking at, that can give hints as to whether there are other underlying things that have made life harder than they should be.

31:53So, I mean, just to touch on briefly some of this, because we talked about biochemistry, there are other factors as well. So, if you've got a much more inattentive what used to be called add form of adhd um what we found i guess over all our you know decades of clinical experience is very often that's got much more to do with something called retained primitive reflexes have you ever heard of that reflexes well i've heard of reflexes but not so so primitive ones that basically means baby reflexes so these are reflexes that are there We all have them and they're there in the first year of the baby's life.

32:30And what happens is one reflex comes up, gets stimulated, and then it integrates. And then the next one comes up and then it integrates and the next one comes up. And it's a set pattern for all of us in the first year of life. And it creates a lot of the wiring in the brain that we need later on in life for things to happen easily. It's like turning on the autopilot. Now, typically, by the time a baby reaches their first birthday, these reflexes have gone. So a doctor will test them in the first couple of months of life, and then they should have gone if you test them at one. But we don't test them.

32:59We just assume they've gone. And we send someone off to school, and we think they're neurodevelopmentally ready for school. But nine times out of 10, if you've got someone with learning behavioral difficulties and you test them, you find they've got these little baby reflexes. So they've got these little immaturities that should have gone that haven't gone, and they mess things up. They mess up your balance, your coordination, your eye tracking. They can make you fidgety. They interfere with your concentration. So, they can create a lot of the ADD symptoms because they just make it much more difficult to sit still and concentrate and process, you know, information.

33:37So, the way that you get rid of those, in fact, there are two in particular I should speak to if it's not too much because I think they're very relevant to ADHD. So, one is called the morrow reflex and it's the early infant startle reflex. So, I don't know if you've seen little babies, if there's any change to their environment, they'll do this. They'll go, and their arms and their legs will go, and they'll hold their breath, and you'll think, oh my God, what are they going to do? And then they cry and they cling on. That's the second bit of the movement. And when they're doing it, tons of adrenaline floods their system, and there's a load of oxygen.

34:08Now, it's an alarm cry. It's a startle response. If there's any change in that baby's environment, they're going to get this kickstart. Parents are going to be alarmed, alarm cry, and they're going to cling on. So, you can see evolutionarily, it's great. but it should have gone by about three, four months of age. The amount of adults I have seen and we have treated that have had a fully retained Mori reflex. Now, if you have this retained into adulthood, it makes you permanently anxious. Okay. Huge dislike of criticism, sounding familiar. It makes actually processing change can be quite difficult.

34:41You have lots of what they call sensoryism. So you're hypersensitive to light, sound, touch, taste, textures all sorts of things so it puts you in a permanent anxiety response and very often mood swings go with that impulsivity goes with that so you can get rid of this by doing neurodevelopmental exercises so you have to do them every day for a period of time until you've given that reflex enough stimulation it goes and when it's gone it's gone for life and so then you're able to function in a completely different way we've worked with so many adults with terrible anxiety problems problems um adhd problems phobias and actually at the root root of it all was this particular little baby reflex that was messing things up and there's another called a spinal gallant that makes you very sensitive to waistbands people that like to cut labels out and all that sort of thing and it makes you fidgety you can't sit comfortably on a chair without squirming and moving it interferes with auditory processing and in kids it's also linked to bed wetting And again, you get rid of it.

35:45You don't have to carry that around for the rest of your life. If it didn't go when it should have gone, you can get rid of it now. So those are other factors people don't think about when they think of ADHD or poor concentration. That first one you mentioned, what was that called? The morrow after Dr. Moreau. It's the morrow reflex, M-O-R-O. Right. And you said there were some exercises you could do to get rid of it. What do those look like? So they're called neurodevelopmental exercises. and they've been researched to death. They were developed by somewhere called the INPP over 40 years ago.

36:18And what we specialize in are doing sort of programs of slow controlled neuromotor movements. So it's like a little baby at that particular one. It's a slow motion startle movement that you do. And you do it enough that it's had enough stimulation and it goes. And as I said, it can be a seat. I mean, I've seen people come off psychiatric medications for anxiety as a result of, in fact, one was a doctor who came off a psychiatric medication because she didn't need it anymore because she didn't have this ongoing anxiety anymore. So this is what I mean by swimming upstream from symptoms. Because, you know, you can pop a pill or you can take the time to find out what's actually going on underneath.

36:58What do you think some of the risks are of the sort of standard stimulant ADHD medication? So risks, I'm sure most people that are taking them are probably already pretty well aware of the risks. But I think perhaps one thing people aren't aware of is if you look at the way in which stimulant meds work and the way cocaine works, it's exactly the same. It's probably quite shocking to people, but it works on the dopamine, it inhibits dopamine reuptake in the cyanosis. So they work exactly the same way. The only difference is that one works much quicker than the other and is therefore more addictive.

37:32And that's cocaine? Let's hope so. Yeah, well, put it this way. One is being prescribed to, positively admired and prescribed for children and the other will put you in jail, right? But actually the mechanism by which they're working is the same. So there are side effects of taking this, you know, and things like changes in sleep patterns, changes in appetite, anxiety, there can be tick disorders, you know, personality changes. So most people are very familiar with those. And then longer term in children, It's linked to stunted growth by one to two centimetres and a small but real risk of a sort of psychotic breakdown as well.

38:10So I'm not, I'm sounding terribly anti-meds. I'm not terribly anti-meds. And I think there are times when they are absolutely necessary. But my message is check out all these other areas first. Do what you can to address the underlying contributing factors before taking this as a sort of panacea forevermore. Because it may be that you don't need that in the end. Why do you think unfulfilled potential can be such a tragedy? I think for anyone, whether neurodivergent or not, it's a tragedy, isn't it? If you can't live your, you know, we're only here once. We want to live our lives as our best self and feel useful, feel of value to people.

38:49And I always think, you know, it may just be more a question of context than your particular traits. So, you know, there's this fantastic story that you may or may not know of someone called Gillian, who was a little girl, eight years old, in the kind of mid-1930s. And teachers were complaining at school because guess what? She was fidgety. She was inattentive. She was distracting the other kids in the classroom. And at the time, ADHD didn't exist as a diagnosis. But they said it's probably some sort of learning difficulty. And they advised her mother to take her up to London and get her assessed by a psychiatrist.

39:23And so Mother Julie went to London, took little Gillian up there and she was sitting in one of those dark oak panelled, rather scary rooms I always find on Harley Street and there was a psychiatrist looking at her and he said to the mother, actually, can we stand outside the room for a second? I just want to ask you a few questions if that's all right. And the mother thought, well, yes, that's fine. And little Gillian had been told to sit on her hands and try and pay attention. She was trying to sit there and as the doctor went out, he flipped the switch on the radio and there was some music playing.

39:55And so they were standing outside the door and it was a glass door and they were looking in. And little Gillian started dancing and she started leaping around the room and she started dancing on the desk. And the psychiatrist looked through the window at her and said to her mother, your daughter's not sick. There's nothing wrong with her. She's a dancer. And that little girl then ended up going to dance school. She ended up at the Royal Ballet and she became principal ballerina. And she from there migrated into being in charge of choreography and producing musicals. She produced over 60 of the leading West End and Broadway musicals, including Cats, including Phantom of the Opera.

40:40There is a theatre named after her. Her name is Dame Gillian Lynn. So I just think that's such an important message for people with ADHD. which is sometimes it's to do with the context you find yourself in as to where your value lies and maybe if you're feeling not valued you're just sitting in the wrong context maybe you're doing the wrong job or you're in the wrong area and you need it's nothing wrong with you it's your context that's the problem so let's find the right one for you absolutely I have heard that story before and only because it comes to my mind because I Phantom of the Opera is my favorite West End show and I've seen it about 16 times wow and there's a big picture of Gillian Lynn in the foyer.

41:19And I think of that story every time I go to see that show. And it's so true, the value of something completely changes depending on its environment. Her value in a classroom, in her mind at least, would have been low because of the feedback she was getting. But put her on a stage, put her in an environment that caters to her brilliance, and she changed the world. So I think we need to remember that, don't we? Let's change our context. Let's not beat ourselves up anymore. Sarah, what do you think the risks are of not taking ADHD medication? Could ADHD medication sometimes be the lesser of two evils?

41:53I think totally, yeah, because if you've got someone who's very ADHD and they don't take the medications, you've got the risk of, you know, sort of risk-taking behaviour potentially, addictions in the future, you know, alcoholism, all that sort of thing. So it's better to do something. It's just that my view is very much take the time you're worth it you're worth the time and energy of trying to figure out what some of the underlying contributing factors are and if you've gone through all of those and you've checked out the diet and the exercise and you've made sure it's not a hormonal problem and there are no retained reflexes and your hearing's working the way it should and you've checked off all of those things then look at the medication copper and zinc we were talking about earlier do your levels of copper and zinc go up or down during pregnancy so actually copper goes up 200 100 % when you're pregnant.

42:43So it shoots through the roof. And for most people, that's fine, because after they've delivered the baby, their body's able to excrete that copper. But again, if you're one of these people with a sort of ADHD type predisposition, and you're not very good at excreting copper, then it hangs around in the system. And, you know, that can be a contributing factor to postpartum depression. So we think there potentially is a link between that and ADHD. And, you know, sometimes we see, for example, a girl when she starts puberty and her estrogen goes up, estrogen generally will increase dopamine levels and serotonin levels.

43:20But if you have this problem with copper, it can actually have the reverse effect and it can reduce that in certain individuals. So that going on the pill can have an effect. So yes, if there's suddenly an onset and it coincides with a hormonal shift, then it's definitely worth looking into that as well. You studied experimental psychology at Oxford University. What did that experience teach you about the evolutionary purpose of ADHD? Again, that's such a good question. First of all, I just want to say everyone is neurodiverse at Oxbridge, okay? I don't think there'd be any dreaming spies if it wasn't as neurodiverse.

43:56And, you know, people are able to think differently and definitely act differently. So I was very obsessed with evolution. It's one of my favourite, favourite subjects. And actually, at the time, this really dates me. It was all about the selfish gene and I was all over the selfish gene. And, you know, the theory behind that is that rather than it being all about us, it's actually about we're gene machines and we want to perpetuate our genes within the gene pool. So, it's looking at a group structure, a sort of a structure of a family. And I think the role that ADHD plays is really, really important evolutionarily.

44:35Because, you know, these are the people that would have eyes in the back of their head that would be on the lookout all the time if there was any sort of imminent threat to that particular tribe. They would be the ones that would go the distance and maybe discover a new food source that no one else had thought about. So really important. And without the ADHD brain, your tribe would be at a disadvantage. And collectively, the genes in the gene pool would not be doing as well. So, yes, it absolutely has a reason and a purpose. I absolutely agree I mean ADHD people we were the ones keeping watch over the camp staying up all night stoking the fire that's it and I suppose being part of a tribe part of a group like you fear being excluded from it for a whole ton of reasons but you might you might change your personality do you think to avoid being kicked out and I suppose does that therefore mean masking has some kind of evolutionary function?

45:33Totally, yeah, because we evolved. I mean, a very important part of our survival is being part of that group, being an accepted part of the group. So, yeah, we've learned to mask, we've learned to do what we need to do to be able to read other people's signals to be able to fit in. And, you know, children spend their lives, especially their teenage years just wanting to fit in. And I think this is what's so pernicious about the culture we currently have of cancelling people. And even the term cancelling, I find abhorrent, because in effect, what you're doing is excluding someone from that group.

46:11And that's what animals do if they want to kill another animal. They exclude it from the group. That's what monkeys do. And then the monkey that's on his own will die. And, you know, we're getting these terrible stories of people committing suicide at university. There was a kid at Oxford who committed suicide. He'd been excluded. He'd been cancelled. So it's terrifying. I think it's like a sort of mob mentality. I know I've gone off on a bit of a tangent, but that's the flip side of masking. It's saying it's really important that we're part of a group and it's terribly damaging to exclude someone from that group.

46:44Do you think that's heightened in the ADHD community when it's a community of people that are probably used to feeling othered very much feeling different and misunderstood and therefore is there a risk that that difference might put them at risk of being ostracized excluded from social groups yes actually i'm only smiling because someone sprung to mind when you were saying that who's a really good friend of my eldest son's and he doesn't mind me talking about him theo because he's done a beautiful testimonial for us but he managed to get cancelled i think twice when he was at oxford and i think it was all within very short succession and he's very ADHD, you know, and he's exceptionally well-meaning and he's a lovely guy, but he just kept putting his foot in it or saying something he wasn't meant to say and, you know, and being cancelled as a result.

47:32And we ended up doing a lot of work with Theo when he became, actually, it's quite interesting. He became very, very depressed in his last year at Oxford and he was always very high achieving, very motivated. He was a rower, you know he was always very capable pushed himself very hard but he had that adhd perfectionist thing going on right he was one of the the people that just thought i have to do everything to absolutely the point of excellence until he couldn't cope anymore until he virtually broke and he dropped out after taking a couple of exams and then he i mean he ended up in his bed at home literally unable to function and i think was under the care of a couple of psychiatrists who were throwing medications, I've seen prescribing medications, but all I know is he was on a stimulant and an antidepressant at the same time, which doesn't make a lot of sense.

48:19But he was in a terrible state and he was saying, you know, I just, I don't think there's much, you know, point of me being here. I'm a waste of space. And we did our work, we did our tests and we found very predictable, really predictable biochemical imbalances. So, he had exactly the hallmarks of ADHD and he also had something called under-methylation, which pushes you into a, can push you into a deep depression and perfectionist cycle so again he he did exactly what he was asked and it's all about compliance but he was so felt so bad and so desperate he you know changed his diet took exactly the supplements that were needed and did brilliantly well you know he not only went back the next year he came out with a with a first in russian and arabic i think it was and and said you know the difference is i now understand my own health and i get the levers that i need to to stay on top of it and I know when I'm slipping and I know what I need to take so it's giving people the keys it's saying that's in your control now your own health your own well-being rather than it just being prescribed for you just with masking when do you think masking becomes a problem because on the one hand you you mask because you want to fit in and not be excluded from a group you don't want to experience the pain you were just experiencing but on the other hand we're talking about wanting to unmask and be our true selves and find our passions.

49:38When does one know if you're masking too much? When does masking become a problem? I think there are time for really honest and open conversations, especially with your nearest and dearest. So for example, you know, if you're blowing out your girlfriend on dinner dates or, you know, important events, because you don't know, because there's now or there's not now. And so you've forgotten that it's a not now. you know being able to sit down and just explain that this is a difference and it's not that I love you any less it's not and it's not that you're any less important to me you really are but this is a fundamental difference and you can't understand that unless you're wired in the same way that I am and sometimes literally sitting down whoever it is that's in your life and explaining it and you know and sometimes when you do that people then tick the box and think ah okay i've got it right well in that case then um we're going to handle this situation differently and i think the more of those conversations that take place the better because society does need to change and it needs to become a lot more tolerant i think we're very intolerant as a society at the moment um we need to just become a lot more tolerant of difference and and i'm using that word tolerant celebrate harness the power of realize that it is actually a gift i think it's so important i mean it's so true what you said and to really like pay attention as soon as you notice there's a massive contrast between how you're acting around certain people compared to how you're reacting how you're acting when you're on your own i think my biggest indicator of when i'm like not masking is when i'm on my own when i know no one is watching me if i'm just left alone at home and i'm what am i choosing to watch on the tv yeah when it's literally there's no external influence when I'm driving on my own and there's music playing I am singing I turn into the drummer obviously my hands you know but but if someone's in the car and I get I can't do that around certain people but I know what I like to do when I'm on my own and when that is so different to how Alex presents in other situations then I think that can create quite clear optics on the on the contrast You see, I think that's really interesting.

51:50And you have painted in your own head an expectation of which person you can do that in front of and what they will find acceptable or not. You might be surprised. I mean, I'd love a good sing-along in a car and playing. In fact, frankly, I do it at the top of my voice anyway. But you might be surprised. You might be surprised. You may have painted yourself a little bit into this corner by thinking that other people won't find it acceptable, and they might. they might find it interesting and fun and not boring what do you think is normal like it's such a big question isn't it what is normal human behavior versus what is perhaps non-normal human behavior where do we even go with that conversation so the longer i live i don't think but what is normal does normal even exist if it does exist i've yet to meet it and it certainly isn't in my family i mean who is normal what is not normal sounds very boring to me.

52:46And I don't know if that's just me, but I don't know what it means. Do we mean adhering to a sort of very conventional norm? And what is that norm? And who's decided what that norm is? And what makes that so acceptable? I don't know, but I do feel strongly that it's really unfair that people who are more on the peripheries of the bell curve, should we say, are the ones that are having to do all that. So, they're dealing with all that anyway and then they've got to do all the conforming to try and fit in with the mainstream i think particularly with autism by the way i i just i find that extraordinary when we're the lunatics and the nutters and actually they're the ones that are completely rational and sane and kind of doing things in a very predictable way and we're saying no you've got to change and be more like us it's like why when did that become a thing um i don't know if i even answered your question did i i mean basically yeah you take away the traits of ADHD or many neurodivergent traits and I think you're right you get somebody that I've never met yeah I've never met them I genuinely can't say I know anyone who is normal and maybe it's because I tend to be attracted more to people who are a little interesting I don't know but aren't those people well yeah you certainly yeah I mean what do you think is there anything about ADHD that that you don't understand, that you still don't get?

54:11Oh, gosh, I think there are so many things we don't understand about ADHD. So, for example, with autism, they're now saying, oh, there are actually nine completely different types of autism. And I think we're just scratching the surface with ADHD. And, you know, the point is no one ever fits neatly into one box, which is why I have this issue with a very formulaic, one-size-fits-all approach to treatment for ADHD, which is medication or find ways to compensate. people can have a little smorgasbord of this and that and different types of neurodiversity all blended together. If you've got ADHD, I mean, there's some evidence from the Autism Research Foundation in America that taking stimulant meds can make it worse.

54:52So, I just think we're at the very foothills of our understanding. And I just really, really hope that not only will we take the time and energy to investigate our own bio-individuality but that attitudes societal attitudes will start to shift and we'll realize what a great value this is going to be because these are going to be the people that are rewriting the future you know and thank goodness because frankly we need a bit of rewriting of the future what traits of autism do you think and i know this is just i don't know the details of the study i don't know if you do but what what traits of autism do you think could get worse because i think i don't want to stereotype but i think i have autism too and I can see it being very internalized like I see things incredibly clearly and if I take a and sometimes they can be bad right you sometimes I don't want to focus on certain things and the autism comes with considerable struggles intrusive thoughts ruminating horrible spirals that cause problems in relationships and if I take a pill that increases my focus and sharpens that image inside my head like I don't know the study you're talking about but I can kind of see that that could be a pretty bad outcome yeah i mean i i think there are overlaps but there are also a lot of differences um so i mean you know the study i was referring to it was really it was um a questionnaire that was given to 25 000 parents of autistic children and they said out of everything you've tried what's helped what hasn't helped what's made it worse and it was just interesting that the first page was all about medication and they had stimulant meds and more people got worse on it than got better if they were autistic and actually it was things like gluten casein-free diet or um uh you know things like giving very particular supplements working on gut microbiome those were the things that tended to lead to the biggest improvements so yeah i i think i don't have the answer to that because there isn't a study precisely on that but there are definitely overlapping overlapping factors in adhd and autism and there are other things that are very very different um but again that's why i think just blindly saying hey take this and let's see what happens it's never a great strategy is it really do you have any surefire ways to manage adhd so i guess my advice would be first of all take the time swim upstream from the symptoms try and find underlying root causes so as i said if you look at your diet you've looked at the exercise how's your body clock doing have you done a circadian rhythm reset how are your hormones doing um are you up all night on tiktok reducing your sort of dopamine focus um when you've gone through all of the obvious things and then you've looked at all the stuff that i'm talking about have you had your biochemistry checked have you had the blood test urine test to find exactly your your biochemical type and have you worked on that have you checked if there are any retained reflexes could there be auditory issues that are going on when you've gone through all of that then think about medication But as I said, there is a risk of not medicating, which is, you know, risk of risk taking behavior and all that sort of thing.

57:54But I think that's the process that I would go through. This has been truly fascinating, Sarah. I have been patiently waiting to reveal your ADHD item. Yes. Every week I ask a guest to bring in an item that most represents ADHD in yours. Unusually this week, normally it's on the table, but this week it's hanging up. It's a football. This week, I'm going to reveal your ADHD item. That is a very cool disco ball, bringing a bit of Saturday Night Fever into the ADHD chatter studio. Don't get me started. Why does a disco ball represent ADHD? I thought of it because I thought in many ways, ADHD people do just live in the moment.

58:39Okay, so when people talk about living in the moment, it sounds very zen, but they're living in the moment with a million eyes, with eyes in the back of their head. They are looking at and noticing absolutely everything that is taking place then. And that's what's so utterly brilliant about it, because they're going to see connections. They're going to notice things that other people don't notice. That's why they're so great for the tribe, right? So, they've got that. But the other thing is, I find people with ADHD are great fun, right? They're the ones you want at the party they're sparkling personalities they're you know they're always the people that you want to hang out with and so i just thought a disco ball somehow summed it all up for me they're going to bring the vibe up and then overthink you overthink about it when they get home that's exactly what they're going to do do you have that ability to like see more um pick up on little micro expressions do that intuition do you think that makes someone a good judge of character someone with adhd i think so i think because they will pick up on signals that other people would have missed and they might not know why and they might not be able to remember it and pinpoint it but they will have a strong hunch that there was just something in that room that didn't quite add up because they will have noticed something yeah that person that everyone likes when they turn out to be a wrong one or they get cancelled yeah we told you so something awful will happen yeah fascinating um love the love the disco ball sarah um they'll probably stay there actually front and center it looks good i want to do penultimately the adhd agony art section which is called the washing machine of woes my adhd item is a washing machine because i always leave my clothes in the machine after after the laundry has after the cycle's finished um and i ask all my guests do you relate to that struggle do i have stinky wet clothes in the washing machine Please tell me you do.

1:00:33I feel less alone whenever the guests say yes. There are plenty of stinky wet clothes in the washing machine, but they're not always mine, is what I'd like to say. I try not to. I try not to. And also, we've got this really annoying machine that sings this whole song up and down. Mine does that as well. But it's so annoying. Do you ignore it when it does it? Yeah, well, I'll say a classic. I'll do it later. And then I get obsessed in something on Google, like the mating habits of blue whales. You see, I get hypersensitive enough to it that I think, right, I'm going to have to open that. Again, it's probably hypersensitive hearing the other thing.

1:01:02We didn't mention, but it could be, you know, that it annoys me enough that I will go and I will take it out then and there. Now, would I remember it if it was just doing it without that? No, probably not, because I would be hyper-focusing on something else. To be fair, I have been using the Teemo app, and they truly are brilliant. I've been getting a lot better at remembering stuff. That's good. This week, Sarah, in the washing machine of woes, someone has written in and asked, I performed poorly at school with terrible grades but I know I'm bright just with an ADHD brain that works and sees things differently it's affecting my self-esteem what can I do to get my confidence back gosh and and that's something we see so often at the clinic just people underperforming relative to how smart they are um I mean I think Chris Evans talked about it he said the way that kids are being judged at school he said it's like you're in the middle of the jungle and there's a tree and you've got a monkey and you've got a crocodile and you've got a kangaroo and the competition is so you can climb the tree the quickest.

1:01:59I mean, you know, that's basically what we're doing to children at school. How do you get your confidence back? Well, I'm assuming you will have done something then as a career that is not necessarily requiring top academic grades. So, you've already found some particular area. One of the main things is listen to this podcast, right? Listen to this podcast and you'll realise that it's just about a difference in thinking and it has nothing nothing to do with intelligence levels whatsoever um you know working to remove those barriers to being able to put things down on a piece of paper or you know think about things in a particular order it is possible to do that through the reflex work through auditory work through looking at the biochemistry but overall it's realizing that difference is a benefit it's not actually anything that's going to hold you back absolutely we had a brilliant guest on Dr.

1:02:51Alex George, you've just reminded me. He said, many of the things that you feel anxious and different for when you're younger turn out to be the things that you're most proud of and your biggest strengths when you're an adult. I guess it's having the awareness and the confidence to A, find out what they are, know what they are, and have the ability to lean into them. When someone with ADHD figures out what they truly are passionate about, and they have the confidence to lean into it, that's when they become world-beating, world class at that thing. I think that's right. Because again, back to this thing of conformity, you spend your teens trying to fit in.

1:03:27And as an adult, you spend your life desperately trying to stand out from the crowd. Absolutely. Yeah. Sarah, fantastic. Just finally, I want to deliver a letter that was written by the previous guest where they wrote their three rules to live by. Okay. Here we go. Thank you. Thank you very much. So the first one is find your signal and follow it with passion and ignore the noise yeah and having that peace and quiet to find the signal i totally agree with that question everything and find the why which is where the signal is gosh that's a bit of a complex one question everything and find the why which is where the signal is i find that a little hard just just the language but i think it's just saying be calm and think about the why yes and be comfortable with being vulnerable it opens doors very true that's a really good one isn't it because we always think we have to appear appear bulletproof to people and actually no the minute you feel close to someone is the moment they show their vulnerability you have to show vulnerability right even if it's in baby steps to expose your true self you do because masking is the opposite of being vulnerable it is so you have to almost test the water test little urges you have different hobbies you want to try a little different ways you want to say sentences like baby steps bit at a bit at a time and that's vulnerability when they get approved and you realize that they're not that's it broken then you can do more of it and it's an act of trust sarah absolutely fantastic thank you so much so much i really enjoyed it