Oxford Scientist: 3 Proven Ways To Supercharge ADHD Brains

0:00Sierra has all the best active and outdoor brands you need. From athletic stuff, like a full-court pickup game, swish, to athletic-ish stuff, like a half-mile stroll. Get those steps in! And from morning hikes up the mountain trail, good pace, to nighttime ghost stories from the camping chair. What a twist! Whatever level of active, Sierra loves it all. Head to Sierra or Sierra.com for the brands you want at the prices that let you do it all. From athletic to athletic-ish, Sierra's got it. ADHD is not one condition. We lump everyone together and say, oh, they've got ADHD, like it's one big amorphous blob.

0:36And it isn't. You've got different people, different types of symptoms. And under every symptom, you've got different underlying drivers. We just need to find out what they are.

0:45Dr Sarah Warley:Sarah Worley is an Oxford educated psychologist who discusses evidence based strategies for managing ADHD. By examining the scientific literature, she suggests three ways to supercharge an ADHD brain. The Moro reflex, it's a little baby survival reflex. Any change to a newborn's environment, they throw out their arms and legs and they inhale and they go, and then they cry and they cling on. By about three or four months of age, that reflex shouldn't be there anymore. If it gets stuck, it basically means you are locked in that panicky morrow mode for the rest of your life. What does actually help a brain in a moment of dysregulation?

1:23So the moment that it's happening. Can I have just a second of your time? If this podcast has helped you understand your brain or made you feel less alone, can you do me one favour? Can you hit the follow button? And I'll repay the favour by continuing to book the best and most exclusive conversations on this topic. Please enjoy the episode and always remember, you're not broken, just different, and you have always been enough.

1:49I've heard you in the past talk about copper and zinc and when I heard you say those two I thought they're not typically two words you would associate with ADHD but they seem to be really emerging in this conversation why are they both emerging now? Yeah it's interesting because zinc and copper I mean they're nothing new as far as the brain's concerned okay so they've both been there, they're both really important for both synthesis of chemical messengers in the brain and the regulation. So we've always known that. I think what's put it on the map is the work of William Walsh. He's a biochemist living in Chicago, and he runs something called the Walsh Institute.

2:28And what he talks about is the balance between the two. He talks about the ratio between the two and how that can have an impact. Again, for a subset of people with ADHD, that ratio can be what's messing up their biochemistry. And I think it's important to say when we talk about the Walsh Institute, so what he's done basically over the past 35, 40 years, he's amassed one of the biggest databases anywhere in the world. So he's analysed loads and loads of biochemistry from people, not just with ADHD, ADHD, mental health problems, behavioural issues, and he's analysed it to identify what he calls the main offenders, the repeat offenders.

3:09And there seem to be certain biochemical imbalances that appear again and again in these things. But his work is based on the database analysis that he's done and also on decades of clinical experience. But what there isn't are the big RCT trials on his work to further corroborate it. So if someone works on perhaps the deficiencies in their zinc and copper levels, what traits that we associate with ADHD might see an improvement? So again, I keep saying it's about the individual, which is a terrible answer to give, but it's true. It is about the individual. Let me explain a little bit about the relationship between the two things.

3:51So copper is a really important cofactor in the enzyme that takes your dopamine, which is the thing you need to focus and concentrate, and it turns it into noradrenaline. So if you up the free copper level in your body, Walsh's theory is that that means you're going to have less dopamine and you're going to probably have more and most importantly dysregulated noradrenaline levels. So that's where copper comes into the picture. Now zinc is a kind of a mitigating force against that because the more zinc you've got, zinc helps you excrete copper. So zinc is also important in the production of neurotransmitters.

4:31But if, therefore, you've got too little zinc and you've got too much copper, Walsh's theory is that's where the dysregulation is coming from. Not for everyone, but for a big subset of people with ADHD. Is there any particular foods that could help with that deficiency with copper and zinc? Yes. Well, as I said, it's not everyone that's deficient. And by the way, we're saying too much copper and not enough zinc, weirdly. So sometimes the problem comes from not being able to excrete enough of something. and then with zinc it might be that you've got a lovely diet but you can't absorb enough of it but yeah in terms of basic sort of dietary advice I'd give to anyone with ADHD I would say protein really important because you know protein breaks down into amino acids and those are the building blocks you need to make neurotransmitters so you need protein I would say have iron-rich foods and zinc-rich foods iron-rich because iron is a co-factor in the production of dopamine so we Make sure you've got, you know, whether it's red meat or pulses, seeds, you know, that sort of thing.

5:33Leafy green vegetables, zinc, you're going to be looking at things like shellfish. That's where you're going to look at your seeds and things. Avoiding those, you know, highly processed foods, of course. And the other big one that's really easy to overlook is what's happening with your sugar levels. You know, if you're someone that wakes up and has toast and marmalade or a sugary cereal, you're going to have a massive spike followed by a crash. I think what's fascinating is once you start having the conversation around minerals such as copper and zinc, you begin to realize that the conversation is actually much bigger than nutrition.

6:06Because underneath all of this is the ADHD brain itself. And most people don't actually understand what it really feels like to live with an ADHD brain. From your perspective, how would you describe, what does it actually feel like to have ADHD beyond the stereotypes? Yeah, beyond the stereotypes. I think two things. I think dealing with the inconsistency must be really tough, right? We were talking about it earlier. You can lock in, you can hyper-focus, you can really get something done, but you can't change and get the next thing done. I mean, I was listening to a little girl that was super smart and she was doing an exam and she was told, spend the time on the one you don't know as well, the question you don't know as well.

6:46So she spent all the exam focusing on that. She knew the answers to the other ones, but she didn't even get to answer them because she couldn't transition from the one that she was on, right? So terrible frustration from that and letting people down that everyone gets angry with you because you didn't deliver what you say you were going to deliver. And I think also just invisible effort that people on the outside don't see. Absolutely. It's the invisible struggle that nobody else sees. You can be observed as being high-achieving or functioning and handing in that assignment at work and thriving at that hobby.

7:19but the extra workload that you're having to do to achieve the same output as many other people, and yet you're desperately almost screaming out, trying to make people aware of how much that is an extra challenge for you. And then it's no surprise, perhaps one day you do, let's use the word snap, or have a meltdown, or react in a negative way to really a small thing, but it's the cumulative things that have added up behind the scenes that nobody else sees. and when your partner says that one thing or that boss emails you that one correction to your work, the dysregulation takes over and you can really snap in the moment.

7:57If the brain is struggling to regulate itself in moments such as that, when the compounding effects of being different are getting too much, what does actually help a brain in a moment of dysregulation function better? So the moment that it's happening, the dysregulation, or do you mean overall in terms of how you can help it? Let's start with in the moment. Gosh, in the moment. I mean, the thing is, when it gets to being a momentary thing, I mean, the ideal is you head it off at the pass and you do the work required to figure out what your main drivers are so you don't get in that position. But when you do get in that position, there are very few things you can do to go from that fight or flight panic mode into a calming one.

8:38I mean, you probably know them already. Breathing is one of the main ones. box breathing or you know breathing in for four breathing out for six or eight and having a little hold between those that definitely works you know people talk about things like binaural beats music as being something else that can help stimulate the vagus nerve and calm the system when you really dig into the research on that it's a little mixed and I'm not convinced it's better than listening to any other kind of relaxing music but but either way doing something to take yourself out of that situation and just to have that moment of calm until what is a physiological reaction starts to calm down.

9:18But it's really hard, isn't it, when you're in that moment? I think the advice you've just given is brilliant. But I think this is where the conversation gets a little bit deeper. Because so many people, I feel like ADHD people, they live in a constant state, as you said, of fight or flight, of nervous system survival. And you mentioned before, one of the key ways to combat this is something called the Moro reflex. But I feel like it's something that most people with ADHD have never heard of. Most people in the world have probably never heard of it. Unless you're a midwife or a doctor, then you will have heard of it.

9:56Okay. So the Moro reflex after Dr. Moreau, an American doctor, It's a little baby survival reflex. Okay, so anyone that's a mother or a dad will have seen this. And if there is any change to a newborn's environment, any sudden shock, so it could be a loud noise, it could be a bright light, it could be a sudden change of position. What they do is they throw out their arms and legs and they inhale and they go, and then you think, are they ever going to breathe again? Because then they hold their breath for what feels like an eternity and then they cry and they cling on. So it's a little survival reflex because again if you think evolutionarily you've given birth as a newborn in the environment you've gone off to forage for some food any change that baby's environment it gets a kickstart to its system it gets a ton of adrenaline and cortisol flooding the system it gets a load of oxygen an alarm cry to the parent and then it clings on.

10:50So you can see it's very useful and there's a lot of theory about it being the reason or one of the reasons a baby takes their first breath, etc. And doctors can be stimulating it if a baby's not breathing to get that happening. Now, typically by about three or four months of age in a baby, that reflex shouldn't be there anymore. So what happens with all of these little reflexes is they're there in the first year of life. They come up, they get stimulated. You see them and you see these repeated movements. and when they've had enough stimulation, they go. Okay. And it's the same for all of us.

11:24There's a sequence in that first year of life for all of us. Now, what happens if it gets stuck, if it doesn't go? And that can happen for all sorts of reasons. I mean, I've seen it, babies that have had very traumatic births, that have had, you know, sort of early traumatic interventions, had to be in the ICU, had an emergency C-section or ones maybe where the mother had a lot of trauma during the pregnancy. None of these are directly causal, but there are lots of correlated factors between them. And if it gets stuck, it basically means you are locked in that panicky morrow mode just beneath the surface for the rest of your life because it doesn't just go on its own.

12:08So I've worked with countless, not just older children, adults with a full-blown, fully retained morrow reflex that shouldn't be there. We test it just the same way a doctor tests it and either it's there or isn't there. It's very clear to see. And if it's there, you can't reason with it. So, you know, if someone were to walk in here and slam the door shut, okay, I'd probably look up and think, oh, what's that? And then I'd realise it's just someone slamming the door and I'd calm down. If you've got a morrow, you'd be, oh, you won't calm down after that. Your heart's going to be racing for a long period of time.

12:41So, you know, I've worked with adults that have had endless psychotherapy. I've worked with adults that have been put on anti-anxiety drugs. But if the cause of your anxiety and your stress is coming from a mori reflex, it's from the brain stem. So that's like the top of your spine. So no amount of conscious control is going to get there. It's just not going to reach it. You can talk about it till the cows come home. It's not going to affect it. The only way you can get rid of it is speaking to that bit of the brain in the language it understands. And these are these slow, controlled neurodevelopmental exercises.

13:19So if someone's listening and they're thinking, do I still have my morrow reflex or not? What is the test for that? You're going to have to wait and get the BeBright app. I'm about to launch an app that's going to give you the keys, to be able to recognise, test for themselves if it's there or not. And if it is there, then tell them what they need to do about it, which is the really important bit. So they're very precise neurodevelopmental exercises. And you have to do them every day. They don't take long, you know, maybe 10 minutes, 15 minutes a day, but you do them every day. It's like turning back the clock and giving that nervous system a second chance to develop.

13:58And you do it until that reflex has had enough stimulation. And then it throws in the towel, thinks, right, done my job, I've done what I was here to complete and it goes. And when it goes, it can be an absolute sea change in functioning. I've seen it many times. So do you think a lot of symptoms and traits that we associate with ADHD could actually be a nervous system survival response? Yes, I think for us, again, a subset of people with ADHD, I think the nervous system probably is tilted into this survival mode. And I always like to think in terms of evolution, why that might be the case. Really handy, right?

14:33really handy to have someone within the tribe that's going to be like the mirror ball scanning with eyes in the back of their head at what could be about to happen and what's you know is there a potential threat and noticing things and connecting dots that other people won't connect super super useful evolutionarily um but not necessarily great fun to live with if you're on that life edge and when someone spends years in survival mode eventually it stops feeling like stress and starts feeling like identity. What parts of ADHD do you think people silently struggle with the most? What parts of it cause the most shame?

15:08I think two things. I think a feeling that you're perpetually letting people down, despite all your best efforts. You know, you genuinely don't mean something and you genuinely care about something, but you just don't manage to show up on time or don't manage to deliver and you let people down. And I think, you know, when you hear your whole life oh god you know just get more organized just you know get with it you know why are you so all over the place why you know why can't you just get your stuff together you know i mean you hear that again and again and again and again you begin to internalize it you know um yeah so i think that's the difficulty because it's all about neuroplasticity isn't it you hear something enough you become it um and then it takes time to unlearn it so even if you've got biochemical imbalance or whatever else the underlying cause is you've still got to work through the wiring to undo it.

16:00Rejection sensitivity dysphoria, RSD, can absolutely wreck people's lives. It's a conversation that we've had on this podcast a lot. And obviously, it was theorized by William Dodson, the American psychiatrist, that kids with ADHD are experienced 20 ,000 more comments, horrible comments in their formative years. How real, in your opinion, do you think RSD is? It's interesting that it's called dysphoria, isn't it? Because what you just described if they've had 20 ,000 more rejection things that's not dysphoric it's accurate that's true yeah that's very real that's 20 ,000 tangible yeah exactly you're behaving that way completely rationally in response to the way the world's been treating you um so yeah so I don't think there's anything dysphoric about it it's just you're you're super super sensitive to it because you've just heard it again and again and again um you know it's one of those things that it's not yet it doesn't mean it won't be a separate diagnostic category as you know but it's it's incredibly real for people um and it's definitely part of just the emotional turmoil and vortex that you can find yourself in with adhd i guess that the exposure to 20 000 extra micro criticisms they leave you anticipating or at least expecting criticism and rejection even when it's not there because you are you have been bombarded with it so often and so much more than a non-ADHD child that you anticipate it all of the time and that leaves you in a constant state of stress and when there is any ambiguity in messaging like the famous example of a thumbs up emoji in response to a text message or your boss saying can we have a quick chat and they don't tell you why because of those because of that almost pattern recognition you're so used to being criticized you see it and your nervous system responds to it being a genuine threat is there any supplementation or vitamins or any nutrient advice that can help with the extreme feelings that come with rsd so you know it's not as simple as you know take this vitamin take the supplement and the RSD will go away.

18:14Because as I said, I think it's a combination of things. I think it's actually a rational response to a lifetime of experience. And by the way, depression is similar in a way. Learned helplessness is what they call it in the animal kingdom. But it's basically, you know, you carry on doing something and you get all these sort of negative things happening. You come to just see the negative and just expect the negative and you can't see all the positive things that are happening. So it's neuroplasticity. Your brain begins to wire to look at things that way. But what I would say is, absolutely, you can address, if you can find out what the underlying drivers are for your particular symptoms, you can then create better emotional calm and strength and stability.

18:54And if you've got that, over time, the RSD will then diminish because you'll begin seeing the world a different way. And the more you see it a different way, the wiring will happen for you to perceive that actually it wasn't really my problem all along. Maybe the problem was I was being judged according to a neurotypical world. And actually, maybe I'm absolutely fine the way I am. I'm just doing the wrong thing and I'm in the wrong environment. And, you know, that awful self-flagellatory blame can begin to go. But I don't think it's as simple as take a supplement and it'll vanish. I would that it were.

19:25Yeah. You know. I think when someone experiences that level of rejection sensitivity and shame for so long and for so many years, they end up not showing the world who they really are. Do you think as a consequence of that, neurodivergent individuals experience loneliness in a unique way? I think loneliness is loneliness. I think the experience of loneliness is probably the same to a greater or lesser extent for people. But are they more prone to becoming lonely? I would say probably yes. And not just ADHD. I would add autism into that mix as well. If you grow up believing that you are different and you don't fit in and being told all the things that are wrong with you, you learn to mask, don't you?

20:14You learn to present a face that the neurotypical world will find acceptable, that you feel like you need to put this suit of armour on to get by in the world, to do well in the world. And meanwhile, you bury yourself and tell yourself to shut up. And it comes at a cost, doesn't it, longer term? And so you can have terrible, you know, burnouts, breakdowns, anxiety, depression, when trying to keep a lid on that for so long, you know, gradually just explodes. And I think girls are very guilty of this, by the way, more so than boys. And I think that's why they get picked up later with both ADHD and autism, because, you know, they've got to be all smiling and sweet.

20:52You can tell I didn't believe that. But anyway, they've got to be the pleasers, the ones that sort of helped the social situation along. And so they learn to mask. And so women aren't picked up until a lot later. And by then, they've probably just been left feeling, gosh, I think deep down, I'm just pretty weird. I'm just a little bit different. And, you know, that loneliness gets confused with a complete lack of self-knowledge as well, you know, because you're not really being seen. Sierra has all the best active and outdoor brands you need from athletic stuff, like a full court pickup game swish to athletic stuff like a half mile stroll get those steps in and for morning hikes up the mountain trail good pace it's a nighttime ghost choice from the camping chair what a twist whatever level of active sierra loves it all head to sierra or sierra.com for the brands you want at the prices that let you do it all from athletic to athletic sierra's got it and you're going to be lonely if you're not seen and people with autism often forget this.

21:55They think, oh, people that are autistic just don't like being social. No, not true. Not true. And they can feel loneliness absolutely as much as anyone else as well. It's just by virtue of being made to feel different. So sorry to interrupt your hyperfocus, but I promise it's worth it. Our sponsor is Timo, the best organizational tool for neurodivergent people. Timo wasn't named iPhone App of the Year in 2025 by Apple for no reason. It's the ultimate planning partner gently helping you turn the chaos in your head into a day that actually feels doable. A day you might even look forward to. Timo is designed by Neurodivergent Brains for Neurodivergent Brains.

22:31And you can tell, it supports the stuff ADHD brains can find hardest. Managing time, planning what needs doing, prioritizing tasks, staying focused, and actually finishing the thing. And the great news is, Timo is now back on Android. The app on Android is still being built up to match the iOS experience with even more features in the works. So if you're an Android user and you've been waiting to try it, you can now use Teemo's core features too, including your daily plan, multiple to-do lists, and AI prioritization to help you figure out what to focus on first. Teemo offers a visual way to plan your day without relying on willpower, memory, or a million sticky notes, helping you break down your daily agenda into something clear, calm, and actually possible.

23:16Give it a go and use the link in my bio for 30 % off. Just a note though, the code only works in the web browser, not in the smartphone app. Back to the episode. ADHD women are the most stressed group of people on the planet. We had a psychiatrist called Dr. Jacob Ambrose from the States come on and share that view. And he said it was because ADHD women and ADHD men, but specifically ADHD women, are so good at masking. they're constantly having to put on this character called normal and it's a constant fight to keep at bay criticisms and ostracization and that feeling of being othered and misunderstood do you think keeping on the topic of loneliness for a second it can be possible to be so good at masking to be so proficient at putting on this front this persona that that persona is getting the attention, the social interaction, the validation, the emotional connection, but who you really are actually underneath is getting nothing or very little.

24:19Exactly. And therefore, who you are actually is very lonely. I think that's 100 % accurate. And I think then it becomes almost an act of profound trust. Do I dare show this other person how I really am? The thoughts that are really going through my head and how I really feel. and will they reject me the moment I do that? And sometimes people, you know, they might have only one or two people in their lives that they feel they can really open up to. And I hope they have that rather than nobody. But yeah, totally, that's a real thing. Masking feels safer often than showing who you really are. Showing who you really are.

24:58And, you know, the bigger question in all of this is why are we putting this tremendous pressure, okay, disproportionately on women, but frankly, on anyone who doesn't fit the mould, this disproportionate pressure to fit into this neurotypical world, whatever on earth that is, it just strikes me as phenomenally unfair. Because, you know, you're coping with a load of things that don't come easily or naturally to you anyway. You're being judged according to neurotypical criteria. And that isn't enough. You've got to then try and fit in and pretend to be something else. Why can't the neurotypical world meet neurodiversity where it is?

25:33Why should neurodiverse people be the ones to do the changing? And I think it's, you know, people talk about tolerating and being tolerant or accepting. I don't even like that language. I think we need to shift it. We need to kind of take off our blinkered vision and see the tremendous value and benefits that neurodivergent people bring. And I think I've talked about this before, but again, in a world that is increasingly going to be dominated by AI. If you want the sit down, concentrate, convergent, analytic thinking, marvellous, get a machine to do it for you. If you want the big picture, leaps, connect the dots, intuition, seeing stuff other people don't see and noticing something that's going on, that's when you need a neurodiverse brain.

26:18And we need to start valuing it. And I didn't actually even like the word divergent. Why can't we say extraordinary, neuro extraordinary, right? Because they are neuro-extraordinary. Somehow this whole dialogue needs to shift. And I think when the broader society begins to realise the true value that's there, and frankly, how much our future is going to depend on that value, then this terrible pressure to mask and be lonely and everything, it's going to go away. 100 % agree with you. And thankfully, conversations are happening now, people are masking less, people are recognising the brilliant strength that can come with being ADHD, having autism, all of the brilliant differences.

26:56However, there are many, many people, a whole generation that this conversation wasn't happening. And they didn't understand why they were struggling in certain areas, why they were othered, why people were giving them so many horrible comments. Sometimes they thought they were truly crazy. For generations that weren't given this conversation when they were growing up, the listeners and viewers of this podcast what do you think are the long-term consequences of masking for years and years as i said i think there's you know lack of self-confidence which i see across the board by the way with everything including things like dyslexia dyspraxia i see it across the board um a tendency towards anxiety or depression um yeah i mean i think those are those are the bigger things.

27:47I mean, I can give you, should I give you an example about someone that I know that was really struggling to kind of keep a lid on everything, which is what you do, don't you? You try and keep a lid. So this is actually someone, I'll call him Arthur, not his actual name. He's a good friend of my eldest son's and a phenomenally talented guy, truly talented. So he used to swim competitively when he was younger, very, very ADHD, very. And he's like a rocket in that pool and um and he won a school he was from very humble background and he won a scholarship to one of the best private schools in the country full scholarship and then he rode and then he got a place at oxford you know his dad's in tears parents from tears can't believe how marvelous it is pictures of him all over the walls at home and of course as you know the secret cost the invisible cost is compensation compensation working 10 times as hard juggling like mad trying to keep the balls in the air.