Rich & Rox: "We've Never Spoken About This Before!" The Secret That Nearly Ended Us

15:38Rox:podcast late bloomers and you guys very honestly speak about intimacy and your sex life and we're gonna touch on that in a little bit but first i want to ask rich about your autism assessment yeah how did you find that uh really strange and really uncomfortable um the the asking questions i was i was okay with had to answer loads of different questions but then there were some things that were just that were just really weird and really uncomfortable um like I had to teach I had to pretend over zoom to that she that put my assessor had didn't know how to clean her teeth and I had to like use props to explain how to clean teeth and there's like also a frog book where I needed to it was just pictures and I needed to make up a story to go with the pictures and it's like this is not me at all.

16:37Rox:I suppose that's why they do it. What were they testing for with the frog pictures? I have no idea.

16:43Rich:Didn't they say when they give you the diagnosis something about how you struggled to, you just said what you could see rather than coming up with a story?

16:52Rox:Oh, that's right. Yeah, it was, put it this way, if a child was listening to this story I was telling, they would be like, what is this? get out of my room and send somebody else here because I was looking at the pictures and just sort of describing what I was seeing it was like the catchphrase of frog books uh but it was there was no real creativity and I was noticing things as well like times on clocks and stuff like that it's just yeah it's been two years since you guys were last on which is absolutely bonkers how fast time goes and I remember you were saying you were going for an assessment when you were last on and obviously now you've gone through the process and you've got the diagnosis which is which is amazing are there any traits that you associate with autism that you look back on now from your earlier years and they suddenly like make so much sense um what the hardest one i think for me um was so my relationship with alcohol and gambling my addictions i always thought that it was due to a traumatic experience of abuse when i was young and it was like bottled up anxiety and stuff like that um after being diagnosed autistic I'm like I really am and who knows there's no right or wrong answer but I'm really thinking like it was my relationship with alcohol because I was just so uncomfortable masking and existing and being overwhelmed in loud environments and stuff like that all the stuff that it was innately um not acceptable to to verbalize certainly not with the persona that I was like giving of like the bank manager, alpha male, whatever.

18:33Rox:So I just used to drink to get through it. And I just, I wonder, it didn't really give me clarity. It brought up loads of questions probably is the best way. And that was quite difficult for me because it was like, shit, what is that? That's been my identity. That's been really neatly compartmentalized in my brain as to why I am and why I've done the things that I do. And now it's just this added layer of I wonder if that isn't the reason was the alcohol part of the mask back then I think I think so yeah it was to well it was one part of the mask because it's what everyone did but I also do think it was like a bit of medicine certainly around you know networking events and after after work drinks and stuff like that I think definitely it played its part And now with the sobriety and the autism diagnosis, has your masking changed throughout the process?

19:31Yes.

19:32Rox:So even before the diagnosis, I don't think that I've masked for quite a while. Like I've been quite honest about how I am because we thought I was right. Like I didn't go from thinking I was neurotypical, getting a diagnosis and then thinking I'm autistic. Like there's reasons that lead you to be there. And I saw something the other day, which I don't know how true it is, but it was a doctor on social media saying that neurotypical people don't question whether they're autistic or neurodivergent. They don't sit there and go, I wonder if I am. So like that's usually a bit of a telltale start and how the journey starts.

20:18Rox:But yeah, I have completely lost my trail of thought right now.

20:24Rich:It's about you not masking anymore, which I don't.

20:30Rox:I don't think I do at all now. Rox, have you noticed a difference in Rich since his diagnosis?

20:37Rich:Yes, but similar to what he said, it definitely began maybe in the year leading up. and we were actually acting as if um he was and I was certainly making changes in my communication how I presented information and I was getting some better results so I was like hmm like I wouldn't just drop an impulsive plan I'd like take very slow steps very logical no pressure and yeah that things were working so we were kind of acting as if you were but I think the biggest change is a connection your connection to your own body which wasn't there before so before you suffered with horrendous anxiety and being ill throwing up pretty much every morning for like 20 years that doesn't happen anymore but it almost was a like a displaced discomfort of living and he'd never say he was uncomfortable or couldn't do something or felt too much or or overwhelmed like he didn't have that you just showed up manned up pushed through almost like your body and self-care wasn't a part of it whereas now how you feel whether that is needing a certain temperature in bed or getting really overwhelmed or needing to leave a social setting early or not go at all or not play by any kind of social norms so you're putting yourself first and you're so much happier I think yeah actually like to to contradict what I said

22:24Rox:the one thing that is quite interesting for me after the diagnosis is I do believe that I like became more autistic I know that sounds strange to say but goes back to masking even little things like gross stuff in the sink or anything like sensory like that I used to just be able to push through it even when even in the last couple of years where I've been thinking that I am autistic as soon as I got that validation and that is like you're autistic and by the way it's not acting like it i can be home alone trying to clean the kitchen and be like oh that's so gross i can't touch that and walk away from it so it's not like a show or doing it for anyone's benefit it's like it's a really strange apparently it's quite common but very i spoke to gina ripon the author of the lost girls of autism okay she was talking about exactly that it's when you get a diagnosis of autism or adhd and suddenly you just focus on that diagnosis so much that the traits come out more and the masking towards hiding them slips away.

23:28Rox:So actually you focus more on the traits and sometimes that can actually cause a negative because you become more aware of your differences and you focus on the fact that you perhaps are different more so than you thought and that can cause some self-esteem issues. Yeah, I certainly wouldn't look at it as a positive like in real life. Like even something so simple as sensory things I was more functional before and like now I'm less um so I wouldn't look at it as necessarily

24:01Rich:a positive thing interesting though because say more functional maybe from the outside in terms of just like getting through a normal day but your emotional self is so much more functional you as a parent you as a partner so much more functional so you've had to like give up a few norms yeah but you've got this freedom so it's an interesting trade-off there and rocks seeing

24:31Rox:rich go through the process of of going through the autism assessment and getting diagnosed has that made you question whether you might have autistic traits or dare i say be or dhd so i've

24:41Rich:had or dhd accusations on the internet yeah by the way i mean that's light-hearted rich's autistic series you don't need a lawyer no no no but like people have said it to me i think because i don't know i i kind of identify as a very sensitive person um a very deep thinker i can get obsessed with with things um i did go through a phase of wondering because that's the type of brain I have like new thing let me look into it I did um every quiz I could find on the internet and nothing ever came back more than maybe slight autistic traits but never and I did every single one from the kind of official rads are all the way to the ASPE quiz um and it never came up but I was so keen to investigate whether it could be true because I've heard some people say that anyone that says they're a highly sensitive person might actually be on the spectrum and could those be linked and being a highly sensitive person was very real to me so I actually found this must have been three years ago now a company on the internet it's like called Embrace Autism um they specialize in kind of diagnosis they do um really look into high masking late diagnosed women so I was like if I am this is where I'm going to find out um so yeah but the appointment paid the 350 quid got the forms never never sent the forms they followed up a couple of years ago ignored the email so adhd is definitely like the stronger one um i kind of do think that my dad is autistic so obviously knowing what we do now you've met my dad right yeah yeah i would say that's fair judgment yeah so knowing that i'm like oh could it be don't know the stats don't

26:52Rox:know the stats are really interesting 50 to 80 percent of people with adhd would reach the criteria for an autism diagnosis and 30 to 50 percent of people with autism would reach the criteria for an adhd wow is that true there's that much if i was a betting man i would go on no i'm interested and obviously from my very unprofessional opinion i would put money on you in fact i would put money on both of you being or dhd no way he can't bet he's a gambling addict

27:21Rich:it but i'll do it five quids next time we're back on but i just don't how would how do you find out because are there people that deal with both is it too separate like how would you even

27:37Rox:so i think it's a travesty that adhd and autism ocd are diagnosed and assessed in silos as more research comes out there there's more information showing that they're not standalone conditions and many people who are adhd are also autistic have also got ocd and other things and dyspraxia and people associate with the diagnosis that they've got but there's various points of their behavior that doesn't quite fit the the current understanding of what they think they have but the reason i say i think for you to stick at stick at something for as long as you have and to see success in it with your books and your music and the podcast and the social media content.

28:25Rox:I would argue, from my very unprofessional opinion, that you need a type of monotropic focus, almost a special interest in that thing.

28:33Rich:No. No, wait. Sorry, no. No, no. I know what you're going to say, but then I do have one interesting thing from that.

28:40Rox:The only interesting thing is the music. Everything else.

28:43Rich:Yeah, so everything else, hands up, ADHD love would have been three months. I was bored after three months. I was like, on to the next thing. Should we start a resin business? His logical drive to go, this is working. People like these silly videos. Let's make more. He has forced that to happen, okay? Over the last, how long has it been? Four years. So it's content. Then it was a book. That was just a...

29:12Rox:Well, no. First, it started with the resin business. I didn't push that through because it smelled.

29:18Rich:no but we start making content and it works oh amazing yes do this do this i get bored really quick he put a system in place so that didn't happen but then i'm like i need to entertain myself i'm gonna write a book that's impossible even better that's the best thing you could tell me cool let's write a book what do i want to do that let's let's make an app the book the book would never have got published you would have written it i would have done like three or four chapters being obsessed and then just like i've had many book ideas in my 41 years do you think

29:55Rox:you both could have achieved the similar level of success as individuals no no i'd be living in a

30:01Rich:basement i'd probably be arrested i like i i'm not very like functional without him so so everything that we do podcast as well was just me coming up with a new idea to go somewhere else to avoid the

30:15Rox:work that I'm meant to be doing that's all what's important by the way everything that you've listed and she's listed the only the ones that you know about there are many other ideas that don't make it through the practicality test yeah should we should we say yeah um yeah and I definitely wouldn't be able to come up with the ideas. It'd be rubbish.

30:40Rich:But the one that doesn't make sense is music because I've done music. I wrote my first song when I was like 12, but I've properly done it since I was in my early 20s and it's been a horror show of something. I've lost so much money. I've been dropped by labels. Things go well, things not go well. I've quit. I've come back. I've always come back and that's not driven by you in fact you would probably look at me like why why are you doing that and it doesn't make sense data wise do not get paid for this what

31:17Rox:does make sense though is I think the industry or being an artist in the music industry is custom made for someone with ADHD because you haven't got loads of the mundane dreg stuff that you hate that I do with all the other businesses, you can just, there's more to it, but you can write songs, you'll meet new people, you'll go to different locations, perform. Like there's this novelty all the time.

31:45Rich:There's a lot of novelty in music. Write a song, bored, write another song, bored. New album. Like it does keep you entertained, but it has been there for a long time. I've also had like half blue hair for like six years. That doesn't feel very ADHD.

32:01Rox:Here's what would be the difference. If I was working on that business, I would be just as keen to promote older albums than newer albums because of the impact and financially and stuff like that. Whereas you are on to the next album. You're covered in incredible tattoos. Tell me to shut up, but you've got a couple of divorces. You've got an alcoholism and a gambling addiction. Do you think you're impulsive? Well, I didn't impulsively drink. I steadily drunk over a number of years.

32:43Rich:Every day.

32:43Rox:The gambling, the tattoos were all planned out. And, you know, being at this whole Marvel leg is because it's a fascination and real deep interest of mine. The gambling one, even to the extent not talking about from a neurodivergent lens, is the only one who makes no sense to me. It's like that is complete compulsive behavior.

33:11Rich:Wait, is this ADHD allegations?

33:13Rox:No, there is no chance. We'll never know. We'll let this play out in the comments.

33:19Rich:Can you imagine? Let me think. Do you lose things?

33:23Rox:Would you get a test for autism, Rox?

33:27Rich:I don't know because obviously I've done all the tests, but people will say, yes, you do and you aren't realistic. I've got the forms. I didn't fill them out. I just don't know. They are realistic.

33:42Rox:I've done loads of autism tests. In the actual thing, other than the frog books and the toothpaste and the toothbrushes, the questions are the same.

33:51Rich:yeah I'd like I of course would but it's also a question of the services and the demand like what would it mean for me so ADHD ruined my life I almost didn't make it through actually life's like amazing just with the ADHD knowledge and I also was diagnosed with CPTSD Lisa, to come to your point earlier that it should be looked at as a spectrum, I fully agree with that. In great therapy, married, dog mum, step mum, keeping myself busy at work, there's nothing that I am struggling with, actually, which is weird but also cool.

34:37Rox:And one of the reasons I won't pursue an ADHD diagnosis is linked back to the regression. If I get diagnosed ADHD and all of a sudden become more ADHD and everything gets sacked off and we stop posting videos. Yeah, I'm happy in ignorance.

34:57Rich:It has lived. It's interesting.

35:00Rox:Could it be the case that you've kind of found your groove with the social media stuff, the books, the music, likewise with you, Rich? And that's actually the reason why you have found success, because you have finally found something you're truly passionate in, rather than pretending, which you might have been doing with other projects, jobs in the past. Because for me, you guys, you're ADHD, you're autistic, and you're your own yin to your yang. and if for me from my perspective if you really lean on each other so much and that's the real reason for the success is that pressure going to cause the marriage to break down

35:42Rich:yeah so it's interesting i hope not no no no divorce number three over here no thanks um it's really interesting we had a really different life before each other so i always pursued whatever I wanted I've always done music I've always pursued my passion and started businesses they just never worked because I needed someone that knew about business and structure data what was sensible I just destroyed myself over and over with creativity but I never lived in the real world Rich lived in the real world he always said he thinks it'd be great at running the business analytics side of things but didn't have an idea and then he met me as the ideas queen so together and it's not only ADHD love and the books and things we've done together he's completely changed my music career just by being my partner just by having that different view of things that I don't have could it cause the relationship to break down I weirdly see it the other way and it might be like a bit unusual I love working with him on everything I wouldn't have it any other way he's like my favorite person to build stuff with brainstorm with because we are so different and we actually have it with our um we have a little team of people that work on our app and it was quite unusual for them to have like a sort of husband and wife team in the roles that we were and they said we've never seen a partner like a husband and wife or partner team just know what their area was and fully respect the other one so I don't even like you're talking about data I shut my mouth enjoy I'll leave the call I'll walk the dog like that is your you are so much better than me and when it comes to what color of blue is the new page on the up to me that's all that's all me i check out at that point don't i i'm like i'm like cool what do you think do you think it could make us break up though like being that

37:57Rox:involved with everything i don't i don't think so i don't nothing would be worth it if it if work became a problem which it hasn't been we would find a way of doing what we do or changing what we do or getting support like because that's the one thing we know in the business world is we know what each other needs so if the marriage and the work starts to not work we would prioritize the marriage and just get people in to help us in the bits of the business that we need huge congratulations on the marriage by the way yeah incredible news what was the ups and downs of let's have a look at the ring we'll have to get a punch in zoom in on the ring that's fine i love it um sorry what were the ups and downs of planning a wedding as a adhd autistic oh lord so sorry to interrupt your hyper focus but i promise it's worth it our sponsor is teemo the best organizational tool for neurodivergent people teemo wasn't named iphone app of the year in 2025 by Apple for no reason.

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39:52Rox:Timo offers a visual way to plan your day without relying on willpower, memory, or a million sticky notes, helping you break down your daily agenda into something clear, calm and actually possible. Give it a go and use the link in my bio for 30 % off. Just a note though, the code only works in the web browser, not in the smartphone app. Back to the episode. What were the ups and downs of planning a wedding as an ADHD autistic couple?

40:16Rich:Oh Lord. Oh Lord.

40:18Rox:We were engaged six years because of that question. Planning the wedding.

40:24Rich:I've been planning it was six years so it's all my fault I hold my hands up I would be like right it's finally time now to do the wedding ceremony cool so I'd start the planning start going into the sort of rabbit hole of the venue and what style of wedding and what kind of band and you know when you sort of go into a hyper focus but it doesn't end like you just descend deeper and cheaper and every like new layer you uncover you're just getting darker and darker until you're fully burnt out so every time I'd start I'd be like oh this barn's nice let's look at other barns it's spread my attention so far I'm burnt out it's done for another few months and it went on like that for years I'd have moments of like I'm ready and then just never did like the admin of it just got got in the way was there a proposal oh yeah six years ago a long time ago now after

41:22Rox:six months oh what was the proposal what did that look like oh uh well i had she sort of knew it was coming i think i had planned took us to i'd planned to take us to like a nice hotel with a spa and it It was going to be like that weekend. I'd got the ring. And then I didn't do that. I did it the night before because it was too like, there's too much pressure on this. So I did it in bed, didn't I? I was like, babe, I'm just going to do it now. Ever the romantic.

41:59Rich:That was it. In bed. I'm like naked. All my nails are broken.

42:05Rox:Oh, your nails were broken, actually. Yeah. I had one solitary nail. On your ring finger, wasn't it?

42:10Rich:There you go, it's a sign. So no, that was lovely. But then, when was it? Last year?

42:16Rox:What, that we got married?

42:17Rich:No, no, no, when I decided. So I was like, we need to actually do it now. It's getting ridiculous. I can't research. I cannot make this a research project because I keep getting burnt out. So we were like, where's the nearest place where we live where we could get married? called Bromley Town Hall made an appointment went in they're showing us around this venue so how many other venues are you looking at none this one only when's your next available date and she was like have you got any special dates I was like I was really cringed but yeah sort of we have like a bit of a lucky number it's a bit wafty what is this 143 she goes away she comes back she goes oh well the 14th of March is free and it's a Saturday and this was in January?

43:08Rox:It was January. So we decided to do it in January and we were married by March. So it was like so quick

43:15Rich:and that's how it had to be. So quick, no overthinking. My mate was the celebrant. You want to do it? He said, yeah. We had cupcakes rather than a wedding cake. We had a metal band DJ rather than a band. So he made all of the overthinking of the social norms just went. No seating plan. No seating plan, big table, pie and mash at the wedding. Just what does this look like if it actually represents us and it's easy? And like we got food. It was brilliant. We got food and it was, yeah, it is lovely.

43:50Rox:Marriage and hotel rooms brings us nicely on to intimacy. There you go. Can't wait. You guys said you were comfortable. Let me know if you want to stop. It'll be fine.

44:02Rich:It'll be fine. We're married now. Nothing to hide.

44:05Rox:I heard you guys speak openly about your sex life and you said something that was super interesting and I want to mention now the countdown clock what is that? I feel like so many women are going to know what this is.

44:21Rich:And I'm so glad that I don't have it anymore. But the countdown clock is basically your own imposed sense of anxiety and stress over how much physical intimacy you're having with your partner. and this sense very often as the female partner if you're not doing it three times a week every week forever you're somehow failing your relationship I don't know where this idea of like three times a week every week came from but it's like not real life yet somehow I'd grown up with this number in my head and when I was like falling off from that I don't know it came with like I always used to say to you didn't I was like worried I feel ashamed I remember the first time like verbalizing it saying oh you must have it too it's like this countdown in your head the last time we've had sex and one day two day three days if you get over two weeks you better do something about it if you're over a month do we need to see a therapist he's like I'm not counting down at all and that blew my mind like you're not staring at this obsessively and thinking that something's wrong you're you're just living the main part of the conversation though was to

45:32Rox:validate to you that it's not like don't worry it's easy to say but and but but I was like it's

45:40Rich:fine yeah but there's a sense on women I guess I grew up in the 80s and 90s it's your this is gonna sound so archaic and I don't believe this but yet somehow it's entrenched in my psyche it's your duty to take care of those kind of things and if you're not is something wrong and I've heard people say you know if you're not sleeping with your partner that's the first sign something's going wrong and it would scare me that something was wrong with us when like nothing was

46:15Rox:wrong with us no I guess if there's some societal expectation that you're subconsciously aware of that you have to do it three times a week you might actually just push back from doing it at all

46:26Rich:Oh yeah, of course I don't like being told what to do Three times a week No I'll do it None at all Now I win Maybe I'll ask Rich

46:34Rox:What bedroom challenges come with being autistic? Oh

46:42Rox:Temperature And impulsivity So

46:50Rox:Okay, carry on So I'll start with impulsivity I wasn't always the best at doing it on the spare of the moment. Spur? Spur. Spur. Yeah. Spur of the moment. So like I can't go from watching Yellowstone on TV to having sex in a few seconds. I'll need to like acknowledge this is now what's happening and then take it like there needs to be a lead up period which isn't very sexy no you need a little sexy plan that's okay we book it in make a plan again like booking it what if you don't feel like it if it's when you'd planned so so that is a problem um and temperature just a pause there back when you used to drink was that issue still there no no not at all um and then temperature is like i don't know whether it's i don't remember this in previous partners but that's probably because i was drunk when i went to bed but rocks is the temperature of the sun

48:02Rich:rocks is so hot is what i'm hearing i don't know if anyone else heard that too so like even even

48:10Rox:in bed you know not even to make it sexual if she tries to cuddle me i can't i can't have it

48:17Rich:I'm not allowed to cuddle. And I took that pretty hard.

48:20Rox:Even a little hand on the leg. I'm like, babe, that hand's been there a minute now. So can you remove it, please? Because I just get really, really hot. So they're probably the two things. I guess without the understanding that you guys have, behaviour like that, almost rejecting physical contact, could trigger RSD?

48:37Rich:I think in the beginning it did because I'm very needy and touchy-feely and I show affection. with Rich and the kids and my dog with cuddling and like back rubs and it means a lot to me. So I would, I guess it was my love language, so I would show that to Rich. And actually the more himself and the more unmasked he was, the more he was like, get off, please, don't like it, hot hand. And actually for a while it did. I'd be like, you don't want to cuddle me. And it would trigger RSD that I'm unlovable or I'm doing something wrong, but now it's brilliant. I'm like, night, babe. Two seconds. I'm off now.

49:21Rich:Do you need the fan? Like, you completely, it's so wonderful when you know how the other person works. You stop thinking it's anything to do with you and you get to love them how they want to be loved. Me hugging him, that was for me. Me putting a fan on and opening the curtains, that's how I can show him love. It's just thrill.

49:45Rox:On this topic, though, you haven't asked a question, but I'm going to tell you anyway. At the start of our relationship, I would say definitely after the honeymoon period, when you're like all over each other, which clearly passes. I would say when we got to normal, my sex drive was higher than yours. Considerably. And now it is completely switched the other way. Mine hasn't changed. It's just yours has changed. Yeah.

50:16Rich:I've started HRT a few months ago. I'd been struggling. I didn't know because some of the symptoms are ADHD symptoms. So I put it down to that. I was struggling to sleep. Well, of course, I've got a racing brain. And I was struggling with brain fog. brain fog um crippling though as in I couldn't actually do my work um thinking I was going to need to quit music because I couldn't focus on everything just didn't feel like myself felt really rubbish very low libido and yes but spoke to a doctor and got put on HRT a few months ago now yeah oh my god like i can't believe i waited so long to do it i'm 41 um but perimenopause can start in mid to late 30s and it can hit people with adhd really hard it's often the time when women will find out yes because it's the hormones changing that then you held it together and i didn't but some women did and then it gets to perimenopause and you cannot cope so yeah i lost a lot of my functioning, a lot of my libido.

51:34And it actually turned out that some of my low libido

51:38Rich:and my overthinking and my worries about sex was like as simple as a hormone issue. I've got on that old estrogen and progesterone and it's game-changed. Not only libido. Yeah, mine is higher than yours now, isn't it?

51:56Rox:Easily.

51:57Rich:It's great, it's great. Not only that, but also the brain fog has gone. I'm sleeping through the night. My hair's got a bit of bounce to it. It really has done something quite amazing. And I just didn't know. I really didn't know.

52:14Rox:That's such an amazing turnaround story. During the period pre-HRT, Rich, when the libido was low, but there wasn't an understanding of why. Did that hit you at all in terms of rejection? um no because although it was low it was complicated right it was layered because she had this countdown clock she felt shame about not doing it but didn't want to do it so it was just it was probably a topic in your therapy sessions as well um it didn't it didn't really strike me as rejection it wasn't any fear that she doesn't love me or anything like that because she would validate me in loads of other ways.

52:55It was just purely that sex topic that was the...

52:58Rich:It's almost like I was thinking about it so much I forgot to do it. And that applies to so much of life when you're an overthinker or an obsessional, you think about it so much you forget to do it. And I'm now like, stop thinking that. Just do it whatever it is, the difficult conversation, the sex with your partner, whatever it is. Stop thinking about it. It's actually been quite a good life hack for me. And when you are, I use your words, doing it.

53:27Rox:Doing it, yes. What traits of ADHD causes issues?

53:34Rich:Less now I'm on the old HRT. The HRT has like just revved up. I'll talk bluntly because there'll probably be women listening to it that might relate. It's like revved up my natural sex drive, which has almost everything I used to struggle with. It's almost like replaced it. So it feels like being a sort of teenager again. That's the level where it's at. I've been told it does settle down. So, yeah.

54:02Rox:How long have we got? Don't lie. A few months, a few months.

54:06Rich:Oh, I love it.

54:08Rox:This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast instead of doom scrolling, smart move. Another smart move? Getting help from one of State Farm's 19 ,000 local agents when you choose to bundle home and auto. Bundling, just another way to save with the personal price plan. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state. But before that was in place, there would be so many struggles.

54:40Rich:Obviously, there's the overthinking. There is the rejection. just around the landscape of not having sex so you're suffering there and then you get to actually put it on the table it's being distracted which is such a rubbish time to be distracted by thoughts of the grocery list like you are busy this is fun what are you doing but it's not controllable so the brain just going off to different places that then impacting my ability to like have a good time.

55:17Rox:I'm just trying to sit here thinking what aspects of autism would show itself in the act of doing it. I can't think of any. The actual act of doing? I can't think of any. I mean, like... Is there any like... Go on, Roxy. Oh my God, what are you going to say? I'll be very careful. Jesus Christ.

55:39Rich:All I'll say... Yeah... Like, there's a plan, stick to it, and you get the job done every time. That's what I'll say.

55:50Rox:You've got to finish on an even number. There you go.

55:55Rich:So, look, happy customers over here. I've got no complaints.

55:59Rox:So, you met at it like rabbits. Yeah. You went on, the libido dropped, HRT, now we're good. If anyone's listening and they haven't quite got to the HRT phase, but they're in that low libido phase, Do you have any intimacy tips for that person? We tried all sorts.

56:17Rich:We, neither of us was without like trying. We bought books. We tried different, let's just say, flavours of enjoyment. Had conversations. I was in therapy.

56:33Rox:Mood lighting. Mood lighting. The set up of the room.

56:36Rich:That funny dance.

56:37Rox:Oh, don't know. Breathe and exercise.

56:38Rich:No, but like we were so...

56:42Rox:Sorry, funny dance. No, Alex. We can't just slide past that. Jesus.

56:48Rich:So I...

56:49Rox:We've got the wide lens, Rich, if you wanted to show us all.

56:53Rich:I read that if you just sort of did a dance before and you got a bit in your body, it could just help with like anxiety, relief, and just having a laugh. So I sort of suggested it on Rich and sort of showed him. and it's really

57:09Rox:we did do it it was funny we were laughing about it so you're there

57:13Rich:in the bedroom I've got the red lights on I've got this lovely smell I'm like come on babe move your arm like this you're just naked like this it's not sexy but I think my girlfriend

57:23Rox:would get the ick if I did that

57:24Rich:like this no but you're laughing and you're sort of like obviously I'm sat down you're taking the mick out of each other

57:29Rox:I might show you

57:30Rich:the exact moves because it's private Alex but like I can't do that on a podcast but you're moving your inner flow And I tell you what, I guess because it had become a bit of an anxious worry of mine, doing something ridiculous like that, like dancing, we were both just giggling and then suddenly you're human again and you're connected. I don't think I'd give that advice to someone that was struggling with intimacy though. I almost feel like the more you think about it, the worse it becomes. It's like not a problem that you solve with your brain, unfortunately. And I'm such an over thinker.

58:15Rox:Well, the reality is that before the HRT, we had definitely not cracked it. So there's probably, you can give advice, but it's probably not that useful. I think where we can give advice is how to stay connected when you aren't having sex three times a week or even once a week.

58:35Rich:And it's honest and open conversation. If someone is overthinking, if someone is feeling rejected, put it on the table, talk about all of it. The fact that we were willing to try mood lighting, different playlists, do funny dances, it showed. even if we're facing something we think is not ideal we're in it together and we'll we're gonna find a way through my little piece of that puzzle was hrt it might be different for different people um but yeah as blunt as it sounds stop thinking start doing that's like my new life for anything

59:15Rox:that's incredible news and i'm so pleased that the magic is very much still happening in that department. I want to ask you probably the biggest question that I've wanted to ask you since you walked in. And that is that both of you went from depression, addiction, suicide ideation, to now thriving, huge success, really probably on track to be millionaires. How did you do it?

59:40Rich:Can I just go and grab my book?

59:42Rox:Yes, please.

59:46Rich:I have forgotten to bring it. I'm sure you said you were bringing it.

59:51Rox:No, I would have bought it. You put a picture on the screen now.

59:53Rich:Okay, sorry. I feel like it's on brand. Yeah. We have got a book. It's at home somewhere. But basically the answer to that question is in the book. And this is the first time, I don't know, we've told those stories, like as dark as they were. and the book basically breaks down um like how shit both of our lives were to be honest with you starts with rich uh on the m25 yeah thinking about driving into the middle of it is one chapter and then me really really struggling with um self-harm and self-injury and stuff like that when we were younger and kind of each chapter takes you through what we had to go through to then try and get to here being happy and in love and with a lovely family doing a lovely job it's quite brutal to write that and go back to those places and quite sad it's almost you feel so disconnected from how awful you used to feel and but actually just fills you with a lot of gratitude now yeah it's an incredible book and

1:01:02Rox:It's called the Cherry Tree Theory. If you could explain to a 10-year-old, what's the theory trying to teach?

1:01:09Rich:It's a crazy ADHD lady who got an idea and wouldn't stop until she wrote a book. So it's basically saying that so much of self-help is focused on what you're doing wrong and self-improvement and self-optimisation. And it can end up feeling a bit like blaming, self-blaming. But when we looked at our stories, of how we actually went from rock bottom and that is divorces, addictions, gambling debt, not wanting to be here and me also addictions, horrendous relationships, self-harm, debt to where we are now. We went through steps that you would go through if you're trying to bring a tree back to life and it sounds so simple but when we moved into our new house a couple of years ago we had a cherry tree in the garden and it was dying and we both kind of got a bit obsessed with the mission of trying to bring it back to life and rich was obviously mr google looking at how you did that and it was really it was so simple if a tree isn't blooming there is something in its environment stopping that from happening so you're going to check the roots and make sure nothing's going on there you're going to make sure the soil is good is it getting enough light and water are there any pesticides and there was a moment when we sort of looked at our lives and we're like it's so strange we've almost gone through these seven steps so is something poisoning the tree like a pesticide well what's poisoning us it was our addictions is something wrong with the root actually on our tree we had cherry tree slugs eating it that we discovered when we were trying to save it, what's wrong with our roots?

1:02:55Rich:Well, there was a lot of dysfunctional family stuff we both had to deal with and get to therapy. So we kind of took the seven steps to bring the tree back to life and then told the seven stories of bringing ourselves back.

1:03:07Rox:Let's hope it's not actually a 10-year-old listening to that.

1:03:10Rich:Was it a 10-year-old?

1:03:11Rox:I completely understand. That's all right. Can you do that? You should all listen to the rule. They would have to have a high IQ to be interested by the end of that monologue. people are in the wrong environment, they change their environment, and they thrive. Yeah.

1:03:28Rich:Can I say that? People are in the wrong environment, they change their environment, they thrive. Ding, ding, ding. Then you sing a song for the ten of them.

1:03:36Rox:Why do you think so many people with ADHD resonate with that message?

1:03:40Rich:Because I think if it's been unsupported, I don't want to say untreated, but unsupported, you haven't had kindness and understanding, the level of low self-esteem leads to horrendous outcomes horrendous we know the statistics relating to adhd and suicide that's not a statistic for me that was me because you truly believe you are like a bad person to your very core and it's not even just the thought of like I'm a bad person like you walk around with the shame on your shoulders because you've always been seen as the problem not getting it right letting people down you've had all the negativity and you just own it and that almost starts to stack up on itself until it's too much to carry and you have all of these negative experiences and you just keep making mistakes it's like banging your head against the wall you're just not learning I can understand why a lot of people think life would be easier to not be here it's just so not true that there's so much like happiness and joy on the other side that's why like podcasts like this are a godsend because it shows people you're not alone in fact you are normal in your own very non-normal way and there's hope for a

1:05:04Rox:beautiful life so thank you was there anything in the theory rocks that enabled you to forgive yourself for anything you did in the past yeah there there's a lot of regrets that i have in my

1:05:21Rich:past but one i lived in amsterdam for a few years and just before stop taking drugs it's a fun place to be before you've made that decision and as with anyone that goes on a sober journey the time before that decision is the worst time it has ever been so my sort of drug taking at that point and my drinking was at a horrendous level and the most horrendous thing was who I became when I was on drugs like aggressive violent like I tell people now and they're like what but you become like a monster comes out of you and I was I had a partner and I was like really close to to his mum and dad and that relationship broke down because of me and I've carried just so much guilt that I I don't know that that relationship broke down I left those people like I couldn't make it work but actually part of this book was with a tree you got to prune it rich had to be out there with the secateurs cutting off every single dead branch i thought he was killing it turns out that was the space that you needed to bring new growth and same was true for me like i had to leave amsterdam had to leave family that i had out there i had to go on this sobriety and therapy journey to find this beautiful life that was waiting for me so it kind of helped with some like self-forgiveness of some pretty dark times it's a powerful illustration of why you have to

1:07:04Rox:forgive yourself for past mistakes when you didn't have all of the information you didn't know how your brain operated so you have to forgive yourself you didn't have all of the pieces of

1:07:13Rich:the puzzle it's hard that though isn't it if you've hurt people because it's self-forgiveness is is one thing but i can't forgive myself on the behalf of others who may have been caught up in although yeah it was undiagnosed unsupported adhd i took it to the limit of how much it could affect me and others and i'm just hopeful that now with so much more conversation about it other teens and people in their 20s don't have to go through that and live that life because it's very dark.

1:07:46Rox:I guess that's part of sobriety, isn't it? It's making amends for people that you might have hurt in the past, but only if it doesn't cause further pain in trying to do so. What about yourself, Rich? Is there any past that you have forgiven yourself for as you went through the process of writing the theory? Yeah, I think, and you've hit nail on the head around the process of writing it because obviously everything that happened, it was real life and it was part of my story. But actually the process of putting it into a book and the written word really did help me reflect and understand in its entirety some of the ways that I felt.

1:08:25Rox:And like one of the big things for me was, and it's quite a dark thing, but when I didn't want to be here anymore, the only thing that stopped me, and I write about this in the book, the only thing that stopped me is that I could see as clear as day my kids, my two kids. So they're the reason that I stayed alive, which could be looked upon as a beautiful thing. But the reality in that moment was they're the reason that I'm somewhere I don't want to be. So it was like resentment at the same time as gratitude. It was so dark, but writing it all down understanding where that where that fits into the analogy and and the environment and understanding the why behind I was like that it was just yeah it was just really I suppose healing experience itself like writing it how do you think it makes your kids feel hearing and knowing that they played such a pivotal role in you still being here today oh that's a good so So my youngest wouldn't know yet.

1:09:35Rox:My eldest, I don't know. What would you say? I'm not sure.

1:09:42Rich:Seer is Seer and Richard Boeck Autistic. So it may look a little different to what you would imagine, but you're also best friends. Yeah. And there's so much love. and seer, although they may not be outwardly facially emotional, they are like deeply, deeply, deeply sensitive kids. And it would be in phrases where they've just said like, I'm so happy that you're the new version of my dad. This is a lot better. And it'd be as simple as that. This one's a lot better. beer carries yeah beer carries it carries so much weight because it's like you're showing up you stayed for them yeah but you got better for them yeah did all the therapy for them learned to like look at the ways you might have let them down dealt with it said sorry parents saying sorry to a kid it's the most beautiful thing and you just see the like the love from see it and they're so happy that they've got you and that you guys are yeah you're just besties aren't you yeah that's the that's the benefit of having kids really young you'd be best there's loads of ways that i wouldn't recommend it but that's one good thing has anybody in your community fans anyone

1:11:04Rox:reacted emotionally to the book in a way that surprised you i don't necessarily think it surprised us because we knew going that dark you know people were either going to hate it and

1:11:19Rich:never read another page or it was going to touch on something I guess the only thing that surprised me was people that took inspiration from it like for me it was like sharing the darkest times to maybe help people who were there but we've had quite a few comments and reviews of people being like I read the book and then I signed up for a PhD at 40. I've read the book we're finally getting married I'm like oh wow cool yeah because there is a lot of darkness but it's got a really happy ending which is kind of like you get through to what you think you need to do which is making it at work and then I got well we both got the realization that it was actually your little life at home your little family that that is the gold at the end of the rainbow one thing i've

1:12:11Rox:noticed as well and it's not it's far less emotional than what you've just said but it's our highest rated book that we've written like our first one was on on amazon 4.6 and then the second one was 4.8 and this one's 4.9 so but how you can i just know i just know what they all at all times yeah um and that and that like for somebody to read it go on write a review and it's just a number but like there's the meaning behind that like is is quite you might not remember but when you first came on here together three years ago you said the exact same thing about your first book you said it's if you're an influencer and we've got a following it's easy to get on the side of times bestseller list what but what means the most to you is reading the reviews and see how much of an impact it has yeah what do you wish the world looked like if more people knew about this theory what do we think the world will look like i know go on then answer it

1:13:12people realizing that where they are now or what their past is can be changed 180 and if you are

1:13:19Rich:having a difficult life whatever that looks like whether that is stuck in a job you hate or relationship you hate mental health on the floor addictions relationship problems whatever it is that you're dealing with it likely isn't your fault you probably make sense something you went through as a kid it's like a mathematical equation take this kind of childhood this kind of kid oh that equals someone struggling with debt or low self-esteem or relationship or addiction it makes sense it's data and you can change the data you can change your whole life and i remember in my 20s feeling trapped like life was over that's it i'm a loser no happy relationship no job you very different story but but similar and you can change everything but you have to stop blaming yourself and go and get help and do things differently and it will probably take a few years like really to go through a lot of good therapy so it's probably much more hope i would say like in one phrase if we were speaking to a 10 year old have hope yeah yeah no it is truly truly

1:14:28Rox:an incredible book and i'm so so pleased that you wrote it i genuinely think that it's not just going to change lives it is going to save lives so on behalf of the community thank you so much for writing it we're going to do something a little bit fun for the final section a little bit different yeah we love it high energy right we're going to do an adhd versus autism quick fire round i'm going to ask a question my money's on rich so i'm going to set the scene and you both let me know how you would react in either setting okay so adhd wait a minute wait whoa who who goes first though like are we answering at the same time or is this going to become obvious i'll go to rocks first okay do you need any more rules or clarification that's all i need you sure yeah okay do you want me to write them down okay they're in they're locked in all right first setting rocks getting ready for a party how are you behaving i'm not going

1:15:20Rich:to a party first of all alex really bold of you to assume i leave the house but how am i behaving okay i'm kind of leaving getting ready to the last minute i know i've got a bath and do my hair kind of vibing you know i'll leave this is supposed to be quick fire I'll leave it till past the time I'm meant to get ready then I'll run my bath, I'll get in, I'll get ready I'll make myself late, I'll try and turn in different outfits I'll throw them all on the floor I'll miss my train, I'll book an expensive Uber that's me

1:15:50Rox:got you, Rich, go, boom I would have researched how long it takes to get to the venue I will be ready probably 20 minutes before that and then I will be overwhelmed because Roxy's making us late yeah, absolutely I would have done both of those I love that. I said off camera, I think I am autistic and ADHD. And I would 100 % have done both of those. How do you live? How would you live like that? I don't know. Right, second scenario, reacting to a messy house. Rocks, does that bother you?

1:16:21Rich:No. I'm happier when it's clean, but I have developed like a superpower where I can exist and function very well in a messy house. That's from being a very messy person for 41 years. It's like a superpower. I can sleep with laundry on the bed or mould in a cup next to me. I know that's going to freak you out so much.

1:16:42Rox:I can't function in a messy house. It actually impacts my mental health. I can't think about anything else until the environment is clean and tidy. It drives me absolutely bonkers. It's my biggest internal tussle. My flat is literally a bombsite. There is a suitcase from two years ago. I went to Rhodes on holiday. Still there. All of the stuff still in it. trip over it and yet I crave the environment to be tidy but I just can't do it and honestly true

1:17:10Rich:100 % it's a massive contradiction I think it's efficient so next time you travel you just pick

1:17:15Rox:up that well yeah what's your main motivation rocks with all of the work that you're doing

1:17:23Rich:honestly probably desperately looking for some kind of self-esteem in a world that made me feel not good enough so it can be a bit unhealthy it can lead to perfectionism obsessional thoughts wanting to like leave a mark on the world you're like look I'm not I'm like not all bad I'm okay I am trying to fight that with something else which is um just like privately pleasure and love and family it feels it has got longer lasting legs the success is wonderful and doing good things and hopefully helping people is brilliant but it doesn't make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside at least not for very long if there is ever a

1:18:15Rox:competition about being in a quick fire anything i am not going to be your partner

1:18:21Rich:can i just say that i can't give context no um for me like purpose like doing a job that i don't hate

1:18:31Rox:and freedom like having more time for gardening being at home gardening and kids what about your sensory pet peeves something that makes you physically sick sorry

1:18:49Rich:do you know what unvarnished ceramics feel like

1:18:55Rox:yes yes I do don't put that thought in my head yes I do

1:18:58Rich:I can't sorry that's it quick fire who wait

1:19:06Rox:so your own or someone else's no animals oh yeah so my own dog I can handle if there's anything else I can't Rox has to get it I will I actually am sick I've thrown up in a garden before numerous times do you have like a lawn out the front of your house? no driveway if somebody was walking their dog and their dog did a poo on your drive and didn't pick it up what would your reaction be? probably violence air rifle yeah whilst throwing up because the poo was so gross yeah Yeah.

1:19:45Rox:Biggest failures? And I know that's a big one, Rox. In life, what do you think your biggest failures are? It's really difficult because every failure,

1:19:57Rich:like I said, I've failed in music for 20 years, but it's working now. I've failed with all these broken relationships, but I've got this awesome autistic now. Every failure has had a happy ending. I guess I failed I don't care if I say this but I don't have a relationship with my dad that feels like a failure tried a lot of ways to try and make that happen but I couldn't but I don't want to claim it as like it's a failure of situation it's not mine but that would be a big regret of mine would be that was the one thing I couldn't fix no matter what I did

1:20:34Rox:staying in a job that I hated for 20 years like that was as it's like i to this day i'm like i won't get that time back it's weird because i live near that bank i walk past it and i often think of you in there masking and probably hung over all the time yeah that's it that's so funny yeah what about your

1:20:57Rich:biggest successes you know old me would have said something about music or the app i just it's him the kids the dog it's like actual happiness and fulfillment outside of needing external validation and i never thought i'd be that type of person because that was all I ever wanted but yeah it's you guys

1:21:31Rox:mine is a regulated nervous system pretty consistently as well like I'm fine all the time mostly Rox what's one secret you've never ever told Richard

1:21:50Rich:oh gosh I don't know if I've told him this or not I've got a bad memory but But did you know that I was engaged when I was 21?

1:22:00Rox:I believe so. Didn't you leave by just leaving the ring on the side and leaving? With a post-it note. Oh, yeah.

1:22:08Rich:So I have told him.

1:22:08Rox:I did know that. I can't think of anything. Rich, is there one secret you've never, ever told Rox? So I'm not just saying this. I don't think there's any secret that I haven't told you. But I will also say, if there was a secret big enough that I'd never told you in six years, I wouldn't be doing it on ADHD chat podcast. So we had the agreement that you would. So like, who knows?

1:22:36Rich:What about a little secret? Just something that you haven't told me?

1:22:39Rox:I mean, I often get McDonald's on a Sunday morning without telling you when I'm taking Lily to football. Is that a betrayal? Do you like McDonald's? Is it a joke? No, not at all. Sustaining McMuffin, mum. Oh, mate. Stop it.

1:22:55Rich:But we said we weren't having McDonald's.

1:22:57Rox:Yeah, I know. But I am an adult male with free will. Have we just caused an awkward car journey back home? Yeah.

1:23:05Rich:Well, no, we're going to McDonald's. Because I don't know how many I've missed out on. I want to clock them all in. I can't believe that.

1:23:13Rox:I want to move on to the most unpredictable part of the show, which is the audience questions.

1:23:17Rich:Let's go. I'm so pumped.

1:23:19Rox:The first time we were here, this was your first episode. It was. The washing machine of woes. And you were trying to figure out how to pick it up without knocking the microphone. Yeah. Now I'm like completely pro. You're a trained professional now. This is a sweaty day, so I'm back to square one. It's falling out of my hand. But as you guys know, the washing machine of woes represents woes from the audience in a washing machine because for me, it represents memory loss because I always leave the clothes in the machine after the cycle. finishes although I do use the Timo app which has helped but I'm still a work in progress Roch's dying to say something do you do that as well don't you yeah I 100 % when I do do washing I do forget it this week in the washing machine of woes somebody has written in and asked what was it like dating in the early stages in terms of your neurodiversity because you're so different how did it work it nearly didn't it nearly didn't at the early stages because obviously during the honeymoon period everyone loves everything and you know I would tidy up the flat and she would make it messy in an hour and I would find it adorable oh look her clothes are all over the floor it very quickly went to and by the way she wasn't diagnosed I wasn't diagnosed I just thought she was being disrespectful so I can 100 % see how neurodivergence can end relationships without the right language and understanding yeah I also think again let's go

1:24:53Rich:post honeymoon because like you just you're blinded by love aren't you for a few weeks it was wonderful um I think if I go back to the communication stuff I could feel really alone and I'm like a big talker and a big communicator and I couldn't get you to like react to me and I'd always be looking on Rich's face for like signs of emotion and caring and they wouldn't be there because now

1:25:21Rox:I know why you're not going to get much from that no because he's autistic so he has more of a flat

1:25:26Rich:face but he's got so much emotion inside but when you don't know that you project on like you projected onto me lazy and doesn't care and I projected onto you a bit mean I suppose if you're

1:25:39Rox:autistic as well whilst you're dating there could be a certain amount of shame that makes you mask and hide that to be more neurotypical and of course that's just not sustainable so eventually you're going to have to show your partner who you really are yeah that's a lifelong journey isn't it i reckon next question do you think in general terms autism and adhd are a good match or are you

1:26:01Rich:just a rare case i think they're the best match you said it earlier it's the yin and yang I believe that to my core at least the type that I have and the type that Rich has it's a wide spectrum when you've met one you've met one we know that but on it's like how it relates to us everything that I don't have he has in bucket loads everything that he doesn't have I have in bucket loads and it's not that normal like 50 50 relationship some of it he's 90 I'm 10 some of it the other way around you go after your strengths you build the whole pie and together we make like

1:26:46Rox:one pretty good team I think as well regardless of my opinion on this I think we've met thousands of couples that are ADHD and autistic and they usually say I'm rich and they're right

1:27:02Rich:And then you know who's the messy one and who's the quiet one. Yeah, yeah. But they sort of find each other.

1:27:10Rox:Yeah. I don't know how. Because logically it doesn't work, but it does.

1:27:15Rich:I saw a tweet that was like, when you are autistic and you meet someone with ADHD and you're like, oh, it's me, but fast.

1:27:25Rox:Yeah.

1:27:25Rich:So it's like there's this innate similar nature that things are different. you do things different ways you approach the world differently but yeah one is energizer bunny

1:27:37Rox:and one is a little more chill yeah absolutely and very well said on to the next question gosh where do you find that you most clash in your day-to-day and your conditions pull you in separate ways biggest clash i would say impulsivity for me i would be like i can see and sense frustration in you where I am so rigid and she wants to do something different and vice versa I'm like well no because that's not plan is but yeah yeah and I hate plans I hate plans so much well you said hate with such vigor yeah but I do I don't like being told what to do I don't like about what I'd be free and cling on to my you forever but But I don't know.

1:28:27Rich:The more you learn, the easier it gets. So my old way of being impulsive was like, should we go to Waterpark? And he's like, no. I'm like, but I want to go now. Or I want to go to this restaurant that's just open around. I would like dump it at the most awful time. I'm now, I'm so much clever, Alex. Like I know what I'm doing. There's a reason I've been to Nando's three times this week. Because I go in soft. I don't put pressure. I don't want to trigger the PDA. I don't mess with the plant. What? You're repping that you're so successful.

1:29:01Rox:How about in the other way where you get to do your treats and your impulsiveness after we agree what you have to do before we do that?

1:29:11Rich:That's a hat.

1:29:11Rox:So that's my hat. That's a hat.

1:29:13Rich:If you send that email, we'll go, Nando's. Cool. I am a rewards-based, I'm like a dog.

1:29:20Rox:This has been truly brilliant, Rich and Rox. Truly great to catch up. We're going to have to have you back on. After the ADHD rich.

1:29:29Rich:I'm going to be like a dog with a bone with that now. Thank you for everything. Thanks for having us back. So proud of you and everything you do as well.

1:29:35Rox:Just finally, I'm going to deliver to you a letter that was written by the previous guest where they wrote a letter to their younger self. And the next guest, which is you today, reads it. There we go. If you could kindly read out the letter. Who wants to read it? You. I'm not very good at reading.

1:29:50Rich:You can read that bit.

1:29:51Rox:To the next guest. Yeah, I can read that.

1:29:53Rich:Oh my gosh. Okay. To my younger self, don't be afraid to be different. I don't see normal as aspirational. Why are you giving neurotypical people the power to make you feel bad about yourself? Move the conversation from neurodivergent to neuroextraordinary. Wow. Well, that's blimmin' neuroextraordinary. I don't think I'm quite comfortable.

1:30:24Rox:They're clever as well, whoever wrote that, because their writing looks clever.

1:30:28Rich:It's that really neat, proper italic writing that actually does...

1:30:33Rox:I would struggle even more to read it, though.

1:30:35Rich:...scare me. I went slowly for a reason there, guys, okay? But it was beautiful. I love it.

1:30:39Rox:Sarah Worley, who was the founder of the Key Clinic. She's a very, very lovely lady. Gorgeous. We love it, Sarah. Is she very clever? Yes, yeah. She's at Oxbridge, yeah. That is clever lady handwriting. Richard Rocks, once again, on behalf of everyone, grappling to understand their brains. Thank you so much. Thank you.

1:31:22Rox:Start today at equinox.com.