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25:55Kristen Pressner:And so one of the things that I learned with my family was because I like to figure out the root cause of something and solve it forever and never think about it again. That's how my brain works. And so I have a place for my keys. I have systems and I never change my systems. And what I realized because they're more interest-driven, they have to change their systems because they become uninteresting. And so they have to be able to change their systems or their systems don't work for my brain and the way my brain is logical. And instead of being like, because I remember thinking this and feeling it, that's a dumb system.

26:35Kristen Pressner:That's a very convoluted system. And now I've just come to say, if it works for you, great. And we'll just be on guard for when it stops working for you. But it isn't the kind of system I would create. And I had to learn not to decide there was only one way to roam. Turns out there's lots and lots and lots of roads to roam. A quick word from our sponsor. We've all had that nightmare. You're on that final warning from that friend. If you miss their birthday again, your friendship is over. Finito. And you do miss it. Even worse, you miss their wedding and you were giving the speech. The speech you forgot to write.

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27:48Timo offers an incredible new voice transcribing service, making it even easier to use. It's almost so simple that it feels like a cheat code to play life on easy mode. Give it a go and use the link in my bio for 30 % off. Just a note though, this code is only applicable on the web browser, not on the smartphone. Back to the show. I feel like this is such a big and important topic, a big part of the conversation, because if you speak to many people still about ADHD or go on social media, I feel like the narrative around ADHD is almost sometimes quite comical, which is so damaging. And you said something there, which is heartbreaking.

28:23It takes 10 years on on average, off your life. I'm an alcoholic myself. I truly believe that's related to my ADHD. I've spoken to so many people who have addiction issues with ADHD. And the personal things you put around yourself, the damage those cause, the perfectionism, the people-pleasing, the working throughout the night, just so you can meet that deadline. Do you think all of this is connected to the shame that we associate with ADHD?

28:56Kristen Pressner:Sure. And I mean, for me, it really is. And that's why this is such an important conversation. It's not squirrel ha ha funny. This is life and death. And I've experienced it firsthand. And again, that's why I think in terms of first you have to move from surviving, then you can move to thriving. But when people don't understand what's happening with their own brain, when they're peddling twice as hard to get half as far when they're leaping over hurdles that are so much harder than other people's, it comes at a price. And you pay the piper eventually. And I think that we could do so much better of a job in having this understanding that there can be a biological reason that people find these things hard that other people find easy.

29:43Kristen Pressner:And to help them move from just holding on and surviving to thriving. Oftentimes in our house, when my family members, this happens daily, kind of go down the shame spiral of feeling bad about themselves. About a week ago, one of my children started going about canceling paid subscriptions. Oh, the kryptonite of an ADHD. You sign up for a paid subscription, it's just going to suck money out of your wallet for the rest of your life because because the executive functions to go and cancel that aren't there. And he realized that and he went and he started to cancel some subscriptions. It's boring as heck.

30:24Kristen Pressner:There is no dopamine in canceling subscriptions. And then he asked me, are there any other places there might be hidden subscriptions? So he went into his app and we did that. And I was thinking, I'm so proud of him for doing this thing that has no dopamine and kind of getting his financial hygiene in good order, because I know how hard it is. I'm so proud. And he was like, just in this shame spiral of adding up all the money that had been wasted. And I get it, but you got to take the win. And you've got to be able to look forward and say, hey, this is, it might've been easy for me to cancel subscriptions or not to get caught in that web, but it isn't easy for him.

31:05Kristen Pressner:And he should, and can and should feel proud that he took control of that. And I think that's also the thing that really is hard in the shame department. The way I always look at it is things that are easy for me are hard for them. And things that are hard for me are easy for them. And I mean, honestly, that should be like a match made in heaven if you think about it. But the problem is because the things that are hard for them are easy for everyone else, you feel like garbage about yourself that they're hard. Instead of us going, hey, look, what a wonderful match. the number of domains that i still trying to cancel the auto renew of a domain or sending back the returns of a piece of clothing i don't like it feels like i'm dragging a bag of bricks along the floor i guess there's no reward right at the end of it and then the there is a huge amount of shame because i still have many that are auto renewing i still have loads of packages in my flat that need to go back so suppose the most important question what do you think we can do to alleviate a lot of the shame and the guilt?

32:08Well, first of all, once I had my big epiphany

32:12Kristen Pressner:that there is an alternative explanation for what I saw, which is biological, which means it's not their fault, and they're not to blame or to credit any more than I should be blamed for being born a middle child, then we need to get the word out on this. Because, you know, ADHD is wildly misunderstood. And it triggers the eye roll. And I don't think we should be rolling our eyes about something that's deadly. And I don't think we should be rolling our eyes about something that's holding back the very gifts and talents and capabilities and potential that is what the world needs now and next. And for me, I truly believe I'm on this earth to bring out potential of people.

32:55Kristen Pressner:And I said I would never give another TEDx again because they're so much work. It's such a pain. But I did this one because I made a promise to myself that if I cracked this nut for my family, I would tell everyone. So they didn't have to spend years trying to figure out how to crack this nut. And we have got to get the word out to people that there is an alternative explanation. It's nobody's fault. And there's some beauty in hard, easy, easy, hard. That's a good match if we could just better understand. I think there's just kind of this common misunderstanding that everything is one way and it's not.

33:36I think the hardest part of living with ADHD is RSD. You alluded to it earlier. You mentioned it earlier, rejection-sensitive dysphoria. And I truly believe that is connected to the, on average, 10 years less life expectancy. When I'm triggered in an RSD spiral of sadness or rage, that's the thing that in the past has made me drink. That's the part of me that has enabled me to go to some really dark places in my head. The spiral downwards happens so fast, so instantly. It's like a visceral, emotional tsunami inside me that is physiologically painful. How would you describe RSD? How would you term it?

34:17Yeah. Yeah.

34:19Kristen Pressner:First of all, there's a few things I would rename if I could. ADHD sounds like attention deficit, hyperactivity disorder. And for me, all of those words are wrong. What it is is an inability to be able to filter and focus everything that's happening all at once. And I think that if people better understood that, we would have a better appreciation. I mean, honestly, when I listen, you know, I sit, watch TV with my husband and he's like, what's that? And it's some sound I tuned out, you know, the flickering of a fluorescent light bulb or a truck going down the street. I think, goodness, it must be exhausting to be you.

34:55Kristen Pressner:It is exhausting to be him because he doesn't, his brain hears all that. And there are benefits to having a brain that processes it all at the same time. There are also negatives to that. And so on RSD, rejection-sensitive dysphoria. So let me rewind. if you were born with a brain that's different than how we all assume the world is, that makes things that are easy for everyone else harder for you, but it's invisible, then how are you going to grow up? You're going to grow up, research shows, with 20 ,000 more negative messages than your average peers by the age of 14. So if we were age 14 at the same time, I would have gotten 20 ,000 fewer negative messages than you.

35:47Kristen Pressner:Alex, what's wrong? Alex, why can't you get it together? Alex, you should have done. Alex, you said you were going to. Alex, blah, blah, blah. Well, is it a surprise that people then go into life and experience deep shame and fear of being rejected? 20 ,000. That's just by age 14. It doesn't stop miraculously when you hit 14. So, you know, when I look back, I think, oh my goodness, did I unknowingly contribute to this for my kids? Sure I did. Sure I did. And I remember thinking when my daughter was in the diagnosis process, it's an embarrassing epiphany, but I remember thinking how I was really trying to advocate for her.

36:29Kristen Pressner:She had a teacher. She was at the top of her class, and within a few months, in the middle of a pandemic, her grades dropped, and she was no longer at the top of her class. She was at risk of not being able to stay on the academic track she was on. And the teachers brought us in with her and said, you're not cut out for the top track. You're lazy. You aren't willing to do the work. And you're going down a track. And I remember thinking, where was the curiosity how someone could drop so precipitously in such a short period of time? There was no curiosity about that. And I was really angry about it.

37:08Kristen Pressner:And that's part of my why is I want to get the word out so teachers know, so parents know, so coaches know what I now know. But I was really angry about that. And I was indignant that anyone could speak like that about my daughter to my daughter. She carries it around. She has shame and RSD and a complex because someone in authority told her she was lazy. And then in my next breath, I thought of one of my other children and I thought, when are they going to get it together? That's the same thing. Maybe I did a better job, I don't know, of not saying those things to my kids, but they could tell if you think they don't have it together.

37:51Kristen Pressner:And so I'm making up for lost time now in trying to make sure that if there were 20 ,000 plus more negative messages that I'm reversing the damage by building in 20 ,000 more positive messages. Because when I see what thriving can look like in an ADHD family member, it's amazing. If someone's listening and they relate to the experience of RSD, they know what it feels like to have that instant feeling of rage or sadness and huge amounts of shame suddenly come over them. Because I've spoken to people on this podcast and they've suggested that for some people that can be a really high risk territory to be in.

38:34That could tip someone over into sort of being relatively okay to instant quite deep depression in that moment. In that moment, because it can completely derail you sometimes. RSD is so unpredictable. You could be having a brilliant day and someone could say something so small while you're making coffee at work or on the phone to you or an email could come in and it just finishes slightly abruptly and it can really throw you. When you're in that moment where it snaps you into this feeling of rage or sadness or shame, how do you deal with your intense emotions in that very specific acute moment?

39:14Kristen Pressner:So first of all, I have not experienced RSD, and so I am careful not to speak on behalf of the lived experience of those who have. But I have spent a lot of time and energy trying to understand, and my family members have given their permission for me to talk about this and their experience. And they've opened up and shared with me what they're experiencing so I can kind of get inside their brains and best support them. I can't say specifically how it feels but these are the kinds of things I've observed me saying I love your haircut so I'm trying to give those 20 ,000 positives and what I get back is so you didn't like my hair before great job playing football today I saw you you were running faster than ever was I slow before and that gives me a window into the soul of what it maybe feels like a little bit of RSD.

40:11Kristen Pressner:It won't even let you take a compliment because there's a flip side to it. It must have been bad before. And again, I just think, wow, how painful and exhausting. Who would choose that? What lazy person would choose that? And so here is what I do. And we call it in our house being a brain friend. We've agreed that my family members are not allowed to believe everything their brain tells them. And I've agreed as a brain friend to be truthful with them about what is. And they've agreed to listen to my assessment. So if I say, I like your haircut, and they say, did you not like my hair before? We don't get to spiral on that.

41:01Kristen Pressner:I say, I liked your hair before, and I like it now even better. And that's the end of it. And so I do think that a good trick for ADHDers is to have someone you trust who cares about you and loves you. They're beside you, willing to be your what's reality, what's not reality foil. For us, I think it's been really helpful. And I can't think of a family member where I haven't said, no, that's not true. We're not doing that. That's not the facts. And I think it's helpful to have someone that you trust who can do that for you so that you don't just jump down that rabbit hole. It's so interesting and so spot on.

41:44I think it's so important to almost collect evidence of your positives, past achievements, accomplishments personal positive traits when you are triggered you can really like almost pull out your phone and read i know but what is it with you all because you just dismiss away all your

41:59Kristen Pressner:superpowers and all of your good stuff and you just really like to hyper focus on the on the negative and so you know i have a uh you know a file of kudos or proud moments or whatever and i can go bask in those if i need an injection of feeling good about myself but i feel like there's a very strong desire to minimize or dismiss the beauty and the strengths. And my theory is, this is back to the easy things are hard and hard things are easy. If against the worldly standard, easy things are hard for me, then I stink. And if hard things are easy, well, that's easy for me, so it doesn't count. Well, yes, it does.

42:43Kristen Pressner:my family members are so gifted and amazing. They can do things I couldn't dream of. And that was what was so baffling about the whole thing. I would watch them and I would see all this potential and all this possibility. And I mean, I'm in the potential business. You know, as an HR executive, like I see potential in people and then my job is to make it happen. And everything I tried didn't work. And I finally figured out it's like that children's toy where you put shapes in a sphere. I was jamming the circle into the triangle hole. And if you push too hard. You'll break that toy. They weren't circles.

43:16Kristen Pressner:And once I realized, then I could give them triangle advice and triangle care. And then magic happens. But I guess people with ADHD are often experts at pretending to be the circle. Maybe. Maybe. I don't, they'd have to be here to speak on their own behalf, but I don't know that they would say they were masking or pretending knowingly. But I think that the advice and the suggestions that I gave, they make logical sense in importance world. And if you don't know you're in Narnia, not the importance world, then it's really got to be baffling why those suggestions don't work. What does masking mean to you?

44:02And have you noticed the difference in how it shows up in person to person, maybe throughout your family or just generally within people you've spoken to?

44:11Kristen Pressner:Yeah, I think masking is an interesting word. We've had big debates about it in my house because I think each of my family members really wants to believe that they're being authentically who they are. And masking implies being someone else. But in a perfect world, we wouldn't have built the whole world around importance being what rules the day. But it is the world that we've created. And until we can adapt it and be more flexible, understanding that there are different types of brains, then my family members need to operate in the world that is as it is. One with taxes and deadlines and keys that get lost and all of that.

44:52Kristen Pressner:And so unmasking, I think that I would never wish for anyone to be not who they are naturally. And there's a certain amount of fitting in with the world that you have to do to be able to thrive in the world. You can't not pay taxes. You asked earlier how you get people to do things that they don't find interesting. This is where it's helpful to have six people in the house because if you divvy things up based on what you find least unpalatable, there's generally someone who's willing to do whatever and everything can get done. And I think sometimes the kryptonite for an ADHD-er can be thinking they have to do everything all on their own, especially if you're kind of shrouded in RSD and shame.

45:46Kristen Pressner:It's like, I'm going to do it in my little circle in my little world here and not let anyone in. And I can imagine it would be hard to let people in. But if you let people in, you can divvy up the work so that the things get done. You know, you could have someone return your packages and cancel your apps and things like that. And then you could do the things only you can do, like amazing podcasts and things like that. I think in this hard things are easy and easy things are a hard world, it's so obvious that if we could crack this nut, the world would be a way better place because we would be, instead of crippling people who have these beautiful skills and capabilities, we would be enabling that.

46:24I feel like having a big family, the ultimate delegation tool. And I think it's, like you said there, like talk to someone. I think Ned Halliwell, his key advice was never worry alone. And, you know, there's a hope of this podcast is I feel like not wiring alone often can look like just listening to something and hear someone say a story similar to yours or talk about your experience in a similar way and you feel that kind of I'm not alone. What do you think are some of the significant upsides of being neurodivergent?

46:54Kristen Pressner:Back to the I'm not alone thing, I've done a lot of neurodiversity and ADHD advocacy since I've cracked the code. And one of the things that is the hardest for me to hear, but I hear it all the time. I mean, I think one of the hard things is the automatic eye roll and not having people listen. But another one is people will say, well, your family's lucky. You know, your husband had you as a wife or your kids had you as a mom because that isn't my experience. And this was part of the why behind doing the TEDx talk, the research, and then helping create it with my family. I looked everywhere for something to help me crack the code faster to understand what have I got going on here and what do I do about it?

47:39And I couldn't find it anywhere.

47:41Kristen Pressner:It didn't exist. And so I made it. And the intention is that the talk can help people who kind of aren't interested in having this conversation maybe disarm them a little to keep their curiosity open and have a new understanding. because the key to all of this is curiosity instead of judgment. And once people know something, they can't unknow it. And so one of the things that my family members were talking about is, you know, there's a teacher or a coach or maybe a parent or a partner that would benefit from spending 14 minutes understanding this from a different angle with an open mind. And so I created the talk intentionally to kind of be shareable and sneak up on people and help them have this understanding.

48:32Kristen Pressner:Because the people who are probably watching this podcast who maybe are diagnosed self or through a physician, they know this stuff. But the problem is that everybody else doesn't know this stuff and everybody else is creating the world. And so how can we get everyone else to know? For me, it's scaling this understanding. And so that was why I picked the TEDx format because it's short and tight. It's 14 minutes. It packs a lot of punch. And at the other end of it, you can't unknow. But I can tell you, I don't think you can watch the talk and then on the other side, call someone lazy. Or at least something inside your brain will be like, hmm, might there be something else at play here that I need to be curious about?

49:16Kristen Pressner:and back to your question about what are the potential upsides so if you look at the world through the way the world looks at the world through the importance lens you know then it's important to be structured and dependable and linear etc and my family members weren't that so they were in my mind not structured not linear not you know deficit, deficit, deficit. And then I started to look with a new lens at those things. What are the upsides? And it's like, my family members aren't all over the place. My family members are able to pivot when the situation calls for it, which look around. You know, there's nothing if not the need to pivot in today's world.

50:03Kristen Pressner:My family members weren't, you know, unpredictable. My family members were able to focus on different things when the moment called for it. And so the conclusion that I came to was in thrive mode, these gifts enable creativity, imagination dot connecting innovation things that most companies that i'm aware of would kill for and if we could create an environment where all of those gifts could come out that's exactly what the world needs right now and those are the upsides of adhd we need to i understand there are there is very real pain we talked about the very real pain and i don't want to minimize it.

50:51But I believe that if we could shift our mindset ever so slightly and

50:56Kristen Pressner:all lean into trying to create a world where we let everyone's gifts shine, then all of these positives are possible. And it isn't deficits and deficits and deficits. It's possibilities and creativity and innovation that we need. And all of those things are tremendous assets, right, in companies if they're accommodated. So I suppose my question is, why do you think neurotypical people find it so challenging sometimes to accommodate the neurodiverse amongst us? Yeah. Well, first of all, I think a lot of people don't see themselves as neurotypical or it's a language that they're not familiar with.

51:32Kristen Pressner:And in the neurotypical population is basically everyone who doesn't identify as neurodivergent already, which could include a whole bunch of people who are neurodiverse as well, neurodivergent as well. but why is it so hard to enable neurodivergent people to have the circumstances that enable them to make all those gifts happen why is that so hard I can tell you as an HR executive the first thing that comes to your mind as an employer is it'll be anarchy it'll be anarchy I mean if being on time is hard we can't not have meetings where people are just strolling in you know whenever it's convenient.

52:09Kristen Pressner:Or if meeting deadlines are hard, it can't be that people just don't meet deadlines. So it's hard to comprehend what could be useful. And in my experience, there's also a hardness in if, let's say I'm the world's most inclusive leader. And I said, Alex, I want to be the most inclusive, brain-friendly leader in the world. What are the circumstances in which you shine the most? Do you feel like you could just rattle off to me what you would need? It would be a challenge. It's a challenge for most people because the trick is know thyself. And most people, I work in HR, don't know thyself. And in addition, it's a known struggle for ADHDers, the interoception, the ability to look inside yourself and know what's going on and read it right is a challenge.

53:03Kristen Pressner:And so for me to be able to accommodate you, you need to tell me what you need. And that's already hard. And so part of what I found, part of being a brain friend, is me using my skills to help my family members or people who I'm around who might have ADHD, help them figure that out to crack that code for themselves. Like, this is when I see you shine the most or whatever. But the other thing that's really interesting to me is, you know, people naturally conclude things, crazy things like, well, we can't have people based in Fiji or we can't have anarchy, you know, would never work if. But the research shows that the vast majority of accommodations to help someone who's neurodivergent shine at work costs less than 500 bucks.

53:45Kristen Pressner:And so I don't think it would be anarchy. I give you the example. I'm wearing glasses. You're not. You're not sitting there going, how come Kristen gets to wear glasses in this interview? I need glasses. you don't. If you need noise-canceling headphones, to be able to have some breaks within your day so that you don't have to power through meetings straight through, to have some autonomy over how you get things done instead of being prescribed the how, those kinds of things aren't expensive and can make a huge difference for someone to be able to bring those amazing gifts that we talked about.

54:20This is really interesting, Kristen. You mentioned there you worked for a large global company in the HR department, which I guess means you probably saw people or heard people say things to you that were meant to be kept secret. What did that teach you about the struggles that some people might be facing with ADHD?

54:41Kristen Pressner:When my TEDx talk came out, I was inundated with messages from people in my own company and outside of it saying, that's me, or that's my child, or that's my partner, or that's my coworker, or that's my boss. Now what? And my idea was that the TEDx talk gives everyone a common understanding of what's going on and then rallies people to become brain friends. So I said, share the talk. Then we have a common understanding and a common language, etc. And And what was interesting to me is nobody wants to. Nobody wants to be associated with this topic. Back to the eye roll. And so I took it upon myself to take the hit, right?

55:30Kristen Pressner:I will be associated with this topic. I will go on your podcast and talk about it because I think we all need to know this. But there are a lot of people in workplaces who don't feel comfortable, and I understand why, because there's a lot of bias in the world, and you can't put the genie back in the bottle if you let it out of the bottle. And so I don't recommend to people that they disclose at work diagnoses or presumed diagnoses or anything like that. I do recommend that people disclose at work the conditions under which they perform the best. And I think we should all do that. If we all do that, then we can create the conditions where we can get the best outcomes from people and the best innovation and creativity, etc.

56:10Kristen Pressner:And so I'd love to normalize that so that it doesn't out certain people for having different needs than others. You had a magic wand. What's one global shift in the ADHD conversation you'd like to see? Oh, I love magic wands. If I had a magic wand, I would love to see there be a common understanding around the world, not just in the ADHD-aware community, but in all of us, that there can be a biological reason why things that many of us find fairly easy, such as mundane adulting tasks or listening or things like that, are much, much easier for us than they are for someone else, a biological reason.

56:59Kristen Pressner:And that oftentimes that comes with extreme gifts and capabilities that this world needs and would benefit from if we play our cards right. Amazing. It's time for my favorite part of the show, the ADHD item section. I ask every guest to bring in an item that most represents ADHD and it will end up on the shelves behind us after you go. But for now, yours is waiting underneath the cloth to be revealed. And I'm going to do that now. That is a jumper. Very cool. How does a jumper, or is it the brain friend bit, represent ADHD? When I finally cracked the code, the code is that we need to create a more brain-friendly environment.

57:45Kristen Pressner:And that means that each of us plays a role in figuring out what are the gifts, skills, capabilities, and talents of our partner in any moment and help make those shine. And if we all did just a little bit of that, I do believe we could bridge to a world where everyone's gifts could shine. And I believe that world is worth fighting for. And so the BrainFriend logo comes from my TEDx talk. And a number of people asked me if there was a way to outwardly show their support for people whose brains might work differently. and so I wanted to bring you for your wall of fame a brain friend jumper to help inspire people to be part of that change.

58:27Amazing. I feel like I should put it on. Please do. Should I put it on? There we go. And now with the magic of editing, I've got it on. Perfect. Looks good on you. I'll wear it on the train home to represent.

58:36Kristen Pressner:Everyone will be like, Alex, what is that? Actually, no, I won't because it's going to stay on the shelves, isn't it? It's going to stay here. Proudly gracing the shelves behind us. I'm sure we could hook you up with one you can wear in the dream. There's another one. We've got two. You brought two, didn't you? I did. We thought of all circumstances. I thought you might put it on your shelf, so I brought you one you can wear. Great problem solving. Yeah. My second favorite part of the show, Kristen, is the ADHD agony yarn section, which is called the washing machine of woes, because my ADHD item is the washing machine, because it represents memory loss, because I always forget my laundry and the machine.

59:05And I do ask all my guests, do you relate to that problem? To forgetting my washing?

59:10Kristen Pressner:Yeah. No, but I do relate to finding a lot of washing and needing to smell it to see how old it's been sitting there. Sniff test. Yes. Exactly. Although I've been using the Timo app, which has made my life a lot easier, and I am getting better at remembering the washing. This week, Kristen, in the washing machine of woes, somebody has written in, I run my own company, and I've noticed people are putting ADHD on their CV for job applications. Should I hire someone with ADHD? I don't know if I trust them. Do they have potential? That was written in by a member of the audience. Wow. Well, my recommendation is not to lead with the ADHD.

59:47Kristen Pressner:I would lead with the gifts that you have and the set of circumstances under which you thrive the most. But to specifically answer the question, should you consider hiring someone with ADHD? Yes, you should. Really? I mean, all those positives you mentioned earlier, right? The creativity, pattern recognition, calm in a crisis, being able to probably see things that other people miss. Oh, yeah. I always say if there was a zombie apocalypse, pick my son. Yeah. Just finally, Kristen, I want to deliver you a letter that was written by the previous guest, and they wrote a letter to their younger version of themselves.

1:00:21And the idea is that we deliver it to the next guest, which is today you, and you read it out for us to hear. There we go.

1:00:26Kristen Pressner:Drum roll, please. Note to my younger self, one day you will be free beyond your wildest imagination. You will be loved, protected, and happy, but not in the way that you think. It will be exciting and worthwhile. Keep going. Wow, beautiful. It is beautiful. Kristen, thanks so much for today. You've made the trip to come over here on behalf of everyone who's struggling to or grappling to understand their complex brains. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

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