The ADHD Hack I Learnt From 8 Years In The Military - ADHD Is A Curse... Until You Learn It

0:00Rich Forbes:Sierra has all the best active and outdoor brands you need. From athletic stuff, like a full-court pickup game, swish, to athletic-ish stuff, like a half-mile stroll. Get those steps in! And for morning hikes up the mountain trail, good pace, to nighttime ghost stories from the camping chair. What a twist. Whatever level of active, Sierra loves it all. Head to Sierra or Sierra.com for the brands you want at the prices that let you do it all. From athletic to athletic-ish, Sierra's got it. In the ADHD community, there's a thing that you feel you should be right about. If somebody else gets it wrong, that's going to trigger that justice sensitivity to the point where even after that conversation has died, you're obsessing over that particular piece and justifying that you were right to have called them out on it.

0:46And it's only towards the end of that rumination cycle that you think, well, maybe I'll push that a bit too far. Do you think a lot of people with ADHD spend their whole life trying to earn their self-worth? We have this perception it's either only us that feels like this or it's everybody. Both of those come with a need to be visible for the good things while you continue to contain the bad things that you know circle around inside. Really, the reason I was so excited to bring you onto the podcast, could you share your groundbreaking ADHD coping strategy with us? It's a catch-all for all ADHD traits and it's RAISE, R-A-I-S-E.

1:22Let's start with R. What does that stand for? Can I have just a second of your time? If this podcast has helped you understand your brain or made you feel less alone, can you do me one favor? Can you hit the follow button? And I'll repay the favor by continuing to book the best and most exclusive conversations on this topic. Please enjoy the episode and always remember you're not broken, just different, and you have always been enough.

1:47I've never started a podcast like this before, and I wanted to read to you a letter that I was sent by a viewer of the ADHD Chatter podcast that actually changed how I think about ADHD. And the letter is this. It said, the worst thing about ADHD is that I get argumentative about the most nonsensical things ever and only realize when it's too late that I was freaking out about nothing. It hurts a lot of friendships that I have and the relationships I have at work with colleagues or even with my parents. It makes me seem like an arrogant person. I hate being alone with my own thoughts and being alone with my own faults.

2:28I think it's easier to prove myself rather than accept myself. I think that's my main problem. How common within the ADHD community do you think that thought process is? I'd say hugely common. I mean, even just from personal experience, the years of kind of silly things like correcting grammar in documents or, you know, when people speak, when they send you a text message and kind of almost being obsessive about that pre-diagnosis. So for me, I personally have done that as a thing all my life. I've managed to contain it now. But all my life, I look at the text message and it's got the wrong kind of you're in or the wrong kind of they're in.

3:16And you go back and say, you mean this kind of there? And there's almost like an element of that justice sensitivity creeping in that that's wrong and you can't have that wrong. You know, maybe there's a trigger back. But I think in the ADHD community, there's a thing that you feel you should be right about that's on your trajectory. And if somebody else gets it wrong, then that's going to trigger that justice sensitivity to the point like I used to be where even after that conversation has died, you're obsessing over that particular piece and justifying that you were right to have called them out on it.

3:50And it's only towards the end of that kind of rumination cycle that you kind of think, well, maybe I'll push that a bit too far. Yes. And then the regret then sinks in. I want to zoom in, Rich, just onto that point, because I think you've really landed on something there. Do you think a lot of people with ADHD spend their whole life trying to earn their self-worth? Yeah. I mean, I think particularly the late diagnosed community, there's this kind of stretch. I've got this client that I coach now who's in a mid four is on the outside is successful in their career. They work in a big kind of PR kind of capacity.

4:30He always has this sense that he, you know, when I talk to him, that he's trying to prove his worth. Even when we first start a coaching session, he is trying to show himself to be, you know, this very senior position that he is and sort of elevated in that sense. And I think when you are undiagnosed or you're late diagnosed, particularly those of us that grew up in the 80s or the 70s and 80s and 90s, we have this perception it's either only us that feels like this or it's everybody that feels like this. And both of those, I think, come with a need to be visible for the good things while you continue to contain the bad things that you know circle around inside, whether that's because you're, you know, you don't want to be different from the rest of the crowd.

5:17So you're going to keep everything contained or you want to be, you know, kind of the lone ranger again. You don't want people to see the real you and therefore you contain it. And that effort to contain it sounds like it's got a consequence. Do you think following on from that, there is a cost of constantly trying to prove yourself? Well, I think it's, you know, people talk about ADHD being exhausting. ADHD is exhausting. And, you know, and they all, you know, they all come right the way back, I think, to those neurological differences. You know, that's the essence of everything, isn't it? When you come back to rejection-sensitive dysphoria, when you come back to kind of emotional hypersensitivity, justice sensitivity, all of those things congregate together and create, you know, a thought stream each maybe.

6:03And I know from, like I say, from my personal experience, you know, I was in the army for a few years, a long time ago. I was very much focused on, I guess at that time, proving myself and I'm proving myself to my dad, proving myself to me that I could be the man, I could be the soldier and reach those higher echelons of rank and status within that time. And actually all of those things kind of congregate. So if I look back on it now, post-diagnosis, I'm kind of seeing, you know, the rejection-sensitive dysphoria saying, I'm not worthy, therefore I must be worthy in your eyes. And that involves people-pleasing.

6:41So you bring in the people-pleasing to avoid rejection-sensitive dysphoria kicking in, you know, the way that your amygdala or whatever it is kind of opens up and says, you're under threat because you're not good enough. Your people pleasing says, well, the only way I can be good enough is to overcompensate. So you're running those two streams of thought at the same time. You're also running that sense in yourself that you're on your own, that nobody else is in the same position as you, or you're running the thought that everybody must feel the same, but somehow you're the one that's failing. So there's all of those constant streams, certainly in my brain, certainly in some of the people that I've coached over the last couple of years have had that same kind of sense that it's not just about I want to do well in my career, but it's I want to do well in my career because of that person, because of that outcome, because of that situation, because of that amount of money.

7:34And that thing is the thing that will validate me and justify me in that position. And that's why it's so exhausting is because you're constantly running. You know, it's like having like being Elvis in his room with his five different television sets and one annoys him. So he shoots it. You know, it's a bit like that kind of moment in your brain where everything is congregating together and you just you know you hit that you know special adhd burnout so interesting the backstory of how we met rich we did a talk together in a company a few months ago and i heard you speak and i got so excited about the prospect of inviting you on to here to speak to the adhd chatter listeners because you said a a method of of managing coping with adhd that i've never ever heard before.

8:21And I thought, you've got to come on here. Before we get to that, what's your mission within the ADHD space? And is there a particular person that has made you dedicate your entire life to helping people with ADHD? Yeah. I mean, I've got four kids, so this is in no way, this is my RSD again, this is in no way discrediting any of the other three. But my son, Teddy, who's my youngest, he was diagnosed with ADHD and autism at the age of five there's very early signs of pathological demand avoidance so he kind of opened my mind to the fact that I could be neurodivergent and led to my diagnosis so my mission as it stands and has been since then is I want to make sure that you know that ADHD and autism are at the frontal lobes of everybody who is hiring by the time that he gets to the point where he's looking for a job.

9:17So he's looking for the right job that suits his brain. He's, you know, confident and comfortable to be able to do that. But equally, there are processes in place that enable him to operate, but also pull back when he's overwhelmed or overstimulated that have, you know, these sensory rooms that enable him to progress as he needs to progress, rather than trying to contain everybody in a neurotypical kind of world. what do you think is the saddest sentence someone with adhd tells themselves over and over again the most common that i hear which is 98 of people i speak to is you're not enough um and it is that internal voice yeah there's a lot of um stuff that traces back to childhood and the 20 000 negative messages more that you receive as an adhd child than you do and as a father of you know of an adhd child that when he's coming down from his medication is very hard to manage those messages you know come out you can't avoid them um and you know i think that then triggers that cycle of not being enough always trying to search for more that combination of the adhd brain and the way that that works into the the kind of childhood trauma if you like that then you know helps your brain develop to try and prevent those threats from coming such an amazing story and that actually leads nicely into the main coping strategy we're going to be discussing a little bit later on.

10:41But first, I wanted to talk about the grief that comes with an ADHD diagnosis. What do you think people tend to grieve most after an ADHD diagnosis? The most stories that I hear are, who could I have been? What could I have done? Some of that, I think, for me personally, it was centered in the expectations that were set upon me as a teenager leaving school, very much centered around that. And what could I have been? Could I have gone to university? Could I have been a doctor? But it's very much, you know, if I'd had the support, if I'd had the coaching, the training, the understanding, the knowledge, if I'd had all of those things in place, could I have been the top of this, the top of that?

11:27On the topic of grief, we're going to expand it a little bit. And we're going to do something I've never done before. and I've created a visual representation of someone's life on the table in front of us. So there's four ages there represented, a 30-year-old, a 50-year-old, a 70-year-old, and a 90-year-old person. At each of those ages, what do you think somebody might be grieving if they get a diagnosis at that age? Yeah, that's a brilliant question. So from the 30-year-old perspective, you know, for me, it's very much about that kind of educational stance. So looking back, You know, it's still the same kind of point I mentioned a minute ago.

12:05Who could I have been? What could I have done? You know, what could I have done better? What the guy, there's a chap that I coach at the moment who's in that sort of age group, family guy, who had a lot of trouble. I mean, he's doing really successfully at his sales job. Really pleasant guy. And he's not kind of in that sad state at all. he um it's very much about you know if i've been able to control my task paralysis or my procrastination for again the uninteresting part of sales then where could i have been what could i have done what could have i achieved if i'd gone to university if i'd learned more if i'd done this you know could i've been more could i have been you know um what my parents expected me to be so that's that's that's 30 i think it's very much about because you're still quite early in your career very much about that that that phase it's a bit forward to 50 so I was 48 when I was diagnosed my grief was really about you know who again who could I have been but having made another 20 years worth of decisions throughout the course of that time you know I'm in my third marriage I've got four children I've had a career in the army I've been in tech I've had you know places where I've reached a ceiling lower than I thought I should have been reaching because I had you know opinions and I could be argumentative, you know, back to the first question that you mentioned at the start.

13:25And it was, if I'd understood more, if I'd been medicated, if I'd been supported and educated on that front, again, who could I have been, you know? And, you know, you're almost then grieving because, you know, at the age of, you know, kind of 48 to 50, you've only got a limited amount of time of employment and career to make a difference, you know? When you get to the older echelons, um so and i've had people reach out to me who are in their 60s who have said i've just been diagnosed thinking about trying medication it's going to help me you know etc etc and they're just starting to learn about the the other hormonal differences that impact how their adhd appears particularly in in women um particularly you know as i say for those in the 60s that are post-menopause that are now coming to terms with with how their body's kind of functioning so they're quite open to it.

14:16But I think in the much older age group, so, you know, I think about my own father who I would say, you know, is probably ADHD from a lot of the characteristics that he has. And probably, you know, an element of autism in there as well, because, you know, he tells some quite prolific stories and I'm fairly confident that he's not going to be watching this. He's not, he probably can't spell YouTube, nevermind, watch it. But he, you know, if you went to him and said your ADHD, we've done some assessments, we've watched you, even if we gave absolute categorical evidence, I know it's not available now, but if you said you've got this much usable dopamine in your synapses, you know, to that level, if we were able to say that to him, he would still be in huge denial.

14:59He would say, that's not me. ADHD is a new thing. I've not, you know, I wasn't born in the seventies. I was born in the forties and, you know, say he's 82 now. So he would be in huge denial. but I think that denial is probably keeping the actual openness of that thought internalized. So he would probably in his own mind and his own body say, well, is there a chance? And that grief is a lonely grief because your career's over. He's retired many years ago, so he's not thinking about that. He lives on his own. His partner died a few years ago. and so it's him internalizing and ruminating you know he was brought up in a in a generation that didn't talk about feelings and mental health and emotion his dad was you know born just at the start of the 1900s so you know he was very much in that staunch kind of stoic way way of life and I think his grief would be the life that he lost and also his inability to be able to communicate that because that would be a whole new skill that you'd have to learn.

16:04So you can only ruminate. And that's a very lonely kind of grief that you have when you sort of find out I'm grieving for that person that I could have been. Is there a grief towards the realization of how much you've masked and how lonely you have been as a consequence of masking for so many years, because you might have been putting on this character that fit in and made friends, but but because it wasn't actually you, the version that was getting that human connection wasn't who you actually are deep inside. So even though you could go to a party and be in a busy room, you feel incredibly lonely because you're not being true and you're not putting the real version of you out there.

16:46Is there a grief in realizing that so much loneliness perhaps could have been avoided had you recognized that you were ADHD earlier and therefore masked less? yeah i mean my my grief on a social a social front was about you know it was about saying you know why am i not able to let people see behind the mask um and you know that old jim carrey movie kind of springs to mind uh when you do it but actually what i i think i discovered on that on that journey for me personally and and again a lot of people that i talked to who were are of my generation so born in the 70s and you know lived through the 80s and all that sort of stuff is that you don't you know when when it's not been visible when it's not been tangible to you that you're masking you just think everybody else creates a persona for the environment that they're in and that means that you don't actually know what the real core of you actually is so you're not trying to suppress the real you the real you is actually just a multitude of masks in different situations and you know so there's the grief part which is at the start is saying you know the social situation if i could just be myself then i could be you know more engaging i could be more conversational i could do the small talk thing and it'd be easy um but actually the reality of it is that there's a sequence of masks and behind that mask is is nothing you know um and that's okay because we're adhd we don't have you know a super high wave of thought messages going through our brains to then only have one persona that sits there we have a multitude of personas and our ability to adapt again is linked to being in the hunter we have to adapt to our environment and be right for that environment in order to secure our prey in order to you know to safe safety you know put the tribe to safety in order to get the right um non-poisonous fruit and veg into our systems so i think it all kind of boils down to that to that kind of point is that it's okay to have different variables to your personality you call them masking or whatever you will some of that is to protect other people protect your tribe some of that is just because it's a nuance for that particular situation there should not be any one version of you with your multi-level thoughts so interesting rich i want to zoom in on the grief aspect and i think this is one of the most important questions i got diagnosed with adhd at 36 and my biggest grief was that I had spent so much time in the wrong environments, in the wrong jobs, the wrong relationships.

19:25How many people do you think in the ADHD community are judged when really they're just in the wrong environment? It's a difficult question, Alex. Because the ADHD community isn't one community. You know, that's the thing. So if you look at the undiagnosed community, most of those in that age group from 35 upwards who are still remaining undiagnosed, they may be suspecting, they may not be suspecting, you know, potentially are either judged or they're judging themselves because they're managing to hide those traits and symptoms because, you know, they think that that's not going to be acceptable in the workplace.

20:10So they mask it, they hide it. So they will judge themselves, in my view. But if they are able to talk a bit more openly about it, then yes, without actually putting that label on it, then yes, they probably will be judged by it. I think those late diagnosed that are kind of going through that grief cycle, I think they, again, you know, will be, you know, almost, you know, some of them, the late diagnosed people that I've come across that are in that hyper-focused state of learning more and more about it, start to emphasize and amplify those traits, you know, and start to look, I'm going to be, you know, I'm going to be creative, whatever.

20:48are going to be creative in this moment or I'm going to suddenly burble something out you know and it's not actually necessarily how their ADHD works it's just that they've picked up that thing and they need to present you know because they've now told everybody so there is that level of judgment that goes well you've got this label now so you're going to act up to it you know so that's kind of that late diagnosed kind of stage where you're kind of going oh I've got to try and be myself now not realizing that actually like I said before the multifaceted masks are yourself you know in a sense so interesting and i suppose with any type of judgment you learn to hide it and mask and i think this is bringing us closer to that coping strategy which i got really excited when i saw you talk about it on stage but just focusing on masking for a second we talk a lot about masking on this podcast but with your experience and your perspective do you think that masking is the biggest hidden challenge that comes with adhd um no i don't i think i don't think it's masking as such well it's probably connected so i think rumination is the hardest rumination is is the thing that you know kind of blights us it's the thing that leads us to um the other coping mechanisms the you know the the wine the cannabis the you know other things that are going to help us just kind of tone our brain down a little bit and that's because we're always ruminating that that moment that one word that was said in the office you know i've done it um This week, we're having a very serious meeting.

22:14There was a new starter there sat next to me, and there was people on the screen that were, you know, a longer tooth in the role. And out of nowhere, I said something that was completely, you know, really inappropriate in today's modern world, not offensive, but inappropriate. And I spent, you know, the entirety of last night, I went out for a drink with a friend, but I spent the entirety of last night, one part of my brain just running over it and over it and over it and over it and over it so i think rumination is but you know i think also as as men um particularly i think you know probably less so for women that masking element comes in because we don't like to show our true feelings you know and that comes neurotypical neurodivergent different types of neurodivergence men aren't comfortable and i don't think they're necessarily in a lot of instances allowed to show that level of weakness as it's sometimes seen so So the masking does cover the rumination, but it starts at the core of being ruminating, which then goes back to rejection sensitive dysphoria, which is, I think, your favorite topic.

23:17But it goes back to that. That's right. The very core of that is that limitation where you are physically in pain because you have this perceived rejection, this perceived criticism. And I think that's where it starts, which is obviously then actually neurological.

23:32Rich Forbes:Sierra has all the best active and outdoor brands you need. From athletic stuff, like a full-court pickup game, swish, to athletic-ish stuff, like a half-mile stroll. Get those steps in! And for morning hikes up the mountain trail, good pace, to nighttime ghost stories from the camping chair. What a twist. Whatever level of active, Sierra loves it all. Head to Sierra or Sierra.com for the brands you want at the prices that let you do it all. From athletic to athletic, Sierra's got it. We're going to touch on rejection sensitivity dysphoria in a moment, because I know you've got some fascinating insights to open up with that conversation.

24:11Just staying on the masking for a moment and expanding, do you think if you do mask and you do suppress, if you're a man, your feelings, or in any way, you hide who you are? Over decades, can you forget who you actually are? Yeah, so I think, you know, I mean, from my perspective, I think I was so young when I started to do that subconsciously that I never really knew who me was. I think I've got ideas of it now, you know, so I react with a lot of, you know, try and react with a lot of humor. I don't remember jokes. I don't remember details. I don't remember facts, but I can jump in with a quip out of nowhere.

24:53And usually some level of appropriateness is applied to that. But, you know, I think there are others that I've spoken to who, you know, maybe they didn't have childhood trauma, who were able to be themselves for a certain length of time, and then started to go out into broader communities, maybe school, maybe university, maybe work, who then started to mask because they found that the reactions they were getting, you know, particularly perceived reactions, you know, that somebody curled their lips slightly or their eyebrow raised slightly or you know they glanced away for a second those little things you know are the things that trigger you to go into masking territory so if they've been doing it for a protracted period of time yes it can be a means to kind of lose who you are particularly if you're in those environments all the time but i think you know a lot of us i think it's not necessarily with a lot of this it's about it's about the tools isn't it.

25:47So masking, I think, can be a tool, you know, and it can be a very useful tool. And it's more about learning how and when to apply those masks and when you are safe to take those masks off, rather than just simply about, I've got ADHD, I'm going to take my mask off now and everything's going to be fine. What happens if you use that tool too much? Like, what do you think is the cost of years of pretending when deep down you're struggling underneath? Well, I mean, the cost is burnout. Because, you know, because we, because, you know, the rumination, the multi lane highway, I've burnt myself out numerous times, I was, I was actually just burnt out last week.

26:30you know and it was you know there was you know kind of a 48 hour period where i just needed to you know become a penguin in a quilt kind of thing and just hide myself away from the world and that was caused by you know working a full-time job still trying to define my purpose in terms of coaching in terms of you know building communities of people that feel safe being adhd running content for adhd coming up with the ideas and i think you know all of those are different masks that i wear and i you know that physically when you're constantly thinking about all of those things and another thought creeps in and you take that thought and you take the next thought and the next thought and the next thought you're using up energy you know and we use up energy to make a decision to brush our teeth to go to the toilet to you know comb our hair you know people who don't have this brain don't have that.

27:25They do it on automation. We don't do it on automation. So we're already tiring ourselves out before we even get to masking and hiding stuff. Masking to me seems to be a shield that you put up in order to protect yourself from rejection sensitivity dysphoria. You mentioned it briefly before. And I think you heard me share this story when we spoke at that company before. I attend Alcoholics Anonymous as my sobriety tool. And I share this story with absolute permission and I've changed her name. I was in a meeting and there was a lady who said, my name is Bethany, I'm an alcoholic and I have ADHD.

28:00And I was sober for seven years, but last weekend I relapsed. And she said last weekend, she was sat in the office Friday afternoon, ready to clock off for the weekend and her email pinged. And she checked her email and it said, Bethany, have a lovely weekend. Can we have a quick chat on Monday morning? And that was it. It was from her boss. And she catastrophized with thoughts such as, everyone in the office has tolerated me all this time. They all hate me. I'm useless. I'm a terrible human being, and I'm definitely going to get fired on Monday morning. And on the way home, she said the only thing that was soothing that catastrophic thought process was to go buy a bottle of wine.

28:44And she got absolutely drunk Friday night. She drank again Saturday night, and she didn't sleep Sunday night. She went into work Monday morning, trembling, shaking, and she sat down in her boss's office. He came in, shut the door, and he said, Bethany, I would like to offer you a promotion. In the absence of context and clarity, if there's any ambiguity, rejection sensitivity dysphoria will assume the worst case scenario. It will jump to the Armageddon case study, and it will cause someone to spiral catastrophically fast, and in her case, enough to derail seven years of sobriety. When you hear a story like that, what does it tell you about the emotional burden many ADHD adults are carrying?

29:30um i mean it's it's and again particularly around undiagnosed late diagnosed and untreated uncoached people who aren't now hyper focusing on understanding it um again i've got a client that i coach um similar sort of age to me um high up in in in his career um and he had um um, uh, similar sort of message, you know, it was like, you know, I need you Monday afternoon. That was it. Um, and it was actually to do a presentation that he, you know, knew full well, what the detail was, what the core was and very passionate about, but he didn't have any context. So he spent the entire weekend thinking, well, my livelihood's at stake here, you know, I'm going to go down the path, you know, and he went through that.

30:17He wasn't, he's not an alcoholic. He hadn't, you know, um, managed to, um, uh, console himself with that. I think his was, was workaholism. Um, and, you know, I hope he, you know, he, he probably won't mind me saying this, but, you know, relations at home have been strained because he works, you know, a lot and that's the level of his job requires and the type of work that he's in requires that. Um, but, you know, the pressure that that puts on at home that he might be failing and then combine that with the pressure at the work with the context-free message kind of sent him into a spiral and you know resulted in arguments and things at home.

30:57We jumped on a coaching call and you know and you can see you know quite early on in that in his kind of coaching plan with me he was quite distressed and quite kind of shaken up by the experience of the fallout with his wife and having to think about what was going to happen when he got into the office on Monday morning and spoke with his CEO. And we went through kind of, you know, the way that I, the framework that I use to help, you know, deal with any kind of ADHD trait. And we went through that process for him to kind of understand, actually, that was his brain lying to him in more cases.

31:32And we went through and looked at the evidence of what had happened during the day and during that week. And we looked at, you know, how that might actually changed the view of what his brain was telling him. And all of that comes really to trying to trigger your prefrontal cortex into action to deal with that situation logically. And you've got to give that time. And it's tough. It's tough for ADHDers. They're that emotional strain because you're constantly, if you're constantly being told, like the 20 ,000 messages, if you're constantly being told, you're not enough, you're too much, you're too loud, you're too quiet, you to this, you to that, you to the other, you overturn that already.

32:09You're not just, you know, receiving that message and then putting it to one side, you're ruminating it, you know, it's going over and over and over in your mind. And that takes energy, you know, out of your brain, out of your body. And it is exhausting. That's really brilliant advice. And we're actually getting really close now to you sharing the groundbreaking ADHD coping strategy that I heard you share on stage at that company that we spoke at together. But just before we get to that, Do you have any RSD-specific coping strategies? So sorry to interrupt your hyperfocus, but I promise it's worth it.