The Masking Expert: '97% of ADHD women can’t unmask until they learn THIS!' | Dana Dzamic

26:27Dana Dzamic:People pleasing could go as far as going to university we don't want to go to. pleasing parents and community that expects us to do something so when i said earlier that with masking masking is very much masking is probably the tool for people pleasing we build relationships we build families we build jobs we build career so we go as far as that just because we want to please people so it's incredible it can be very very costly behavior and we have to look at that very seriously it can ruin people completely i feel like constantly people pleasing and putting on a front being nice all the time it's exhausting right and that is exhausting can that lead to social overwhelm it can it absolutely does lead to over social overwhelm and uh it can lead to burnout we mentioned earlier so social social overwhelm is again very I think very complex because it it can be triggered with anything from being in a noisy environment to staying to talking to people that we don't want to talk to to having conversations that we don't find interesting and it doesn't work for our dopamine boost in maintaining behavior that is not natural to us so there are so many so many situations where social overwhelm does happen and every minute can be exhausting but then if you do it every day if you do it for hours if you do it for months and yes and yes and yes then again it becomes learned behavior so we are exhausted all the time and I know so many people including myself that you know the first the most severe problem they are experiencing is actually that constant tiredness I did think for years that I have chronic fatigue syndrome until I actually learned that's not it's not that because everything was okay with my health.

28:26Dana Dzamic:So every sort of medical checkup was okay. It didn't give me any answers, but I was constantly fatigued. And I think that's a consequence of social overwhelm and masking. Well, I think it's exhausting pretending to be interested in something that you're not interested in. Do you think that's why so many people with ADHD struggle with small talk? Oh, yes. Small talk is an interesting one. So small talk, in theory, could be an easy way to please people and we can learn how to do small talk even though it's not natural but um i i don't know it's it i i always found it really really hard uh so i remember when i had my girls and i had to socialize with moms and there is nothing wrong about it nice people everyone is interested in raising children we have so much in common but then um it was very much about small talk so we talk about weather we talk about school we talk about holidays and all that So I think that is something to do with dopamine, definitely not getting anything exciting.

29:29Dana Dzamic:Everything is day to day. Everything is repetitive. And I think it's about maintaining, it's about trying to fit in. So we are really forcing ourselves to fit into the conversation that is not something that our brain is craving. So there was nothing for our brain in small talk. And I think it's a very difficult thing to do. and there is a lot of masking that is required for successful small talk so it sounds very simple and we it's it looks like we can easily learn it but i think it's very very difficult and many people struggle with that it's interesting because you can have really in-depth meaningful intellectual conversations that might look like they require more effort because they're so in depth but because we're interested in them they're so easy and yet really mundane chats about the weather, which might look like easy conversations, because we're having to put so much effort into pretending to be interested in the weather, it's the small talks that are actually way more exhausting than the really in-depth, meaningful conversations about something that we're truly passionate about.

30:32Dana Dzamic:Absolutely. And then with small talk, that is, again, RSD that comes in, because when you make so much effort to do it well, you actually think about all the details. You think about, am I saying the right things? Am I looking in the right way? Am I not interrupting? Am I listening to these people? Am I going to be caught in not listening? And then you're afraid you will look like you are disinterested. You will look bored. You will look irritable. You will look rude. So we worry about all these things. So when you make so much effort to actually have conversations that you make effort to have them and they're not natural to you you worry you're not doing well and then rsd kicks in and it becomes worse and when it all gets too much and the social overwhelm really kicks in what do you think social overwhelm can look like from an outsider's perspective well it depends how how well the person is how well the person rehearsed masking so i'm talking about decades sometimes.

31:38Dana Dzamic:So if the person is masking really well, and I have to be really reserved saying that because good masking doesn't necessarily mean it's good for the person, but if the person is successfully masking, it can look like anything. So I know people who just, you can't see anything is going on, but it can look like people who is bored. I remember yawning all the time when I was a teenager. So I remember being told by my cousin, please don't yawn when we socialize. But it can look like irritability. It can look like drinking. So some people just drink to actually navigate social overwhelm. It can look like too much talking, over-explaining, over-apologizing.

32:28Dana Dzamic:So yeah, it can look like so many things. It depends whether the person is masking well, coping well, or is just struggling so much that it leaks in different directions. And it can look like severe impulsivity. I think in a society, I just wanted to say here, because we talk a lot about good person, bad person. And I think those terms are overused in different societies. And I think it comes with behavior. So when you have a quiet, compliant, kind, patient person, it's often labeled as a good person. And then people pleasing behavior can look like a very good person behavior, but it's not a good, I mean, it can be a good person, but it's often just the person who is pleasing because that person is anxious and she has RSD, etc.

33:17Dana Dzamic:But then bad behavior can be a consequence of persons struggling with emotional regulation, being impulsive, struggling to have a conversation. And then that person gets labeled as a bad person. So I think we have to be careful. It's overused. Those terms are overused and they are very generic. and I think so much behavior attached to ADHD goes into one or another category, which is very, very dangerous for people experiencing that. I feel like ADHD overwhelm generally can look like laziness. And that exposes you to comments from colleagues, your partner, perhaps, friends. Why are you so lazy?

34:00Some days I've described ADHD as having those 10 highly caffeinated squirrels barreling around in your head and each one's pulling you in a different direction and that can create overwhelm and some days that can be so bad and you can't do anything in that moment of heightened overwhelm other than lie on the sofa and just ride it out and that can look like the optics of that can look like laziness and that exposes you to comments but i always thought the difference between laziness and overwhelm is if you if you were being lazy you you would be having a good time when you were lying on that sofa because it would be a choice whereas overwhelm is it looks like you're not thinking about anything but you're you're tearing yourself up in your head you're being so nasty to yourself because of that internal critic those self criticisms you mentioned earlier how would you describe the difference between laziness

34:51Dana Dzamic:and overwhelm well thank you for that question because laziness is the most common and i think probably potentially the most dangerous misunderstanding of some of the ADHD traits. And it comes very often. And I think people with ADHD experience, probably most of us experience that either as a self-perception or perception by the others. So I don't like the word lazy anyway, even if you don't talk about ADHD, because I think there is always something else. It's either lack of motivation or problems with energy. So I think there is always something else. But as we're talking about ADHD, we really talk about problems with regulation.

35:35Dana Dzamic:So usually when people look and appear lazy and are perceived as lazy, that's because people are trying really, really hard. So it's incredibly dangerous to actually have a lazy label. And if you are actually putting all the effort you have, all the energy you have, and you still feel like you're failing, and then on top of it, you're called lazy. And I think it happens from early childhood. It's commonly used in schools. It's used by parents. I've had parents describing their children as lazy, clever but lazy. I've had teachers describing children as lazy. And then it comes, you know, it goes through university and work and it's just so wrong.

36:21Dana Dzamic:So I think we have to talk about a lazy label a lot more. I mean, I remember when I was doing, I did a lot of research in my life and I was very excited about idea. For example, what do we want to find out? So research project and what is the topic and what we are doing. And I was very excited about final results. but I really struggled with the process because you have to deal with a lot of data you have to analyze data so me with my scatid ADHD brain that was a struggle so I felt very lazy actually struggling through that process because I felt like I don't feel like doing it and I'm constantly pushing myself to do it and I remember going through day by day so today I'm going to start in the morning and I will just make a plan and I will just do that and it never happened and if I understood then but laziness was a big description of that struggle with the process so i think even people who are really struggling they still call themselves lazy because that's a description for not doing something that you're supposed to be doing and overwhelm so i mean overwhelm is probably more accurate explanation for what people call lazy and i think in 90 percent of cases um it's it would be important to use that that word and i feel like without an understanding or an awareness that you have adhd yourself and you also get told a hundred times that you're lazy you'll truly start to believe that you are lazy and then you get the diagnosis or you become aware that you've got ADHD, you understand about overwhelm and the relief that falls over you when you realize that you're not lazy.

38:05There's an actual explanation behind why some days you are so overwhelmed that you are paralyzed sometimes.

38:13Dana Dzamic:Yes. What's the remedy then, or is there one, to overwhelm? What can someone do to alleviate it? Well, again, I think, again, as we mentioned previously. It starts from awareness and recognition and understanding how it happens. So I think we have to, because we're all different, we have to see how overwhelm happens. So I think we have to be very analytical and then we have to go through previous life and really see the first signs. So what is overwhelming for me, it's probably not overwhelming for you, or it could be, but I think we have to understand in day-to-day life, we have to understand how it feels and we have to understand the beginning of it and the triggers and then how we can deal with that so again i think it comes from either uh working on our own strategies how to approach that or actually navigating with the environment communicate communicating with the environment so again i have you know i know people living in places where they can actually easily explain and they can ask for more breaks they can ask for accommodation they can ask for different working conditions And in some places, people have to look for excuses.

39:21Dana Dzamic:So they have to find a way to communicate that. But it's incredibly important to understand the whole process from how it starts until how we reach that burnout. and sometimes it's not overnight but people feel like it happened overnight because they cope and they cope and they cope and then suddenly they crash so I think I think we have to understand the whole of the coping process and what we're going through until we crash. Do you think generally the ADHD experience and the masking that comes with it in other words pretending to be someone that you're not for so many years can that be quite a lonely experience i think it's a very lonely experience uh absolutely because um as i said before people build based on masking people build their life they they build everything relationships and families and um work and profession and then uh it all it's all based on uh expectations so there is a gap between what we are and what we are expected to be.

40:27Dana Dzamic:And then even if we start being honest with somebody, we still have to live, you know, we still have to, the feeling of what we really are and who we really are. And that who am I question is very difficult to answer, you know, without that, you know, when we start unmasking. So I think navigating all that, I actually don't find it easy to explain but i do feel it's very it's a very lonely experience but i and people do tell me it's a very lonely experience so it's not just the matter of whether people can or cannot communicate uh what they are and how they feel and uh how well or not well regulated they are but um i do think that navigating symptoms and the environment and communication and expectations can be incredibly lonely experience.

41:21I feel like it can be quite hard to maintain any form of friendship or social group because there's a version of yourself you put out into the world and then you come home, you close the door and you're exhausted, you fall onto the sofa and it's a different version of you. It's like your unmasked version, but the world doesn't know that. So it's very hard for you to make friends in the world when you can't be your true self out there. And then you can see a picture on social media of a group of friends out together and you feel like you're missing out because you haven't put a true version of yourself out into the world to enable you to make friends at the worst of it where do you think loneliness can lead to

42:00Dana Dzamic:it can lead to mental health challenges self-esteem challenges it can lead to problems with identity i mean what you described it often comes as a consequence of masking because if you have loads friends or you feel like people you spend time with and they don't really know the version of you then obviously there is a fear of losing them so you don't know what's coming if you start revealing what you are and many people have that fear and many people actually make a very conscious decision I am still going to mask because somehow I'm coping somehow I use that words somehow a lot because that's how people feel um so there is a fear of losing friends feel of losing a fear of losing a partner a fear of um failing because we don't know when we start unmasking how is that going to look like it's almost like you being in a tunnel and then you know you are coming out and you don't know what's in front of you um so that's that's where loneliness comes back because you're very, very much alone with what you really are.

43:07I feel like it's quite scary as well, unmasking and showing someone who is really important to you your true self. And I get that that's a gradual process. But for an example, if you go on a first date with someone, that's probably a universal experience. You're going to be putting your best self forward. You want to impress them. And over time, you want to relax into your true self. but that it might be a considerable difference between how you were on date number one compared to how you are a year into the relationship do you think there generally is a bit of a fear about unmasking in front of people that are close to you in case they don't like

43:44Dana Dzamic:the new version i think there is a huge fear it depends what the kind of people that people are surrounded with so i i normally advise people to actually start in small steps with a small number of people. And then I quite like to look into who they have, what is the family situation, what is a friendship situation. And then we start from describing friends, describing family. And I would normally advise people to actually find one person and gradually start talking about it and then just unpeeling slowly. Because I think there is no such thing as sudden unmasking. I don't know how that looks like.

44:22Dana Dzamic:And I don't think that many of us would actually struggle with that so it's not just about how we talk to others but it's also how we discover ourselves so I would always suggest that with unmasking because there is always it doesn't feel safe all the time we have to start very slowly but I think it's really worth working on that gradually and constantly pushing through and opening up you know more doors so many people find that you know they have one friend they talk to and uh you know it becomes a relief and then they talk to a woman who talked to her husband and he would be understanding and then many people find that parents are not understanding because they are at that age that actually they find it hard to actually start thinking about it uh but uh there are lots of good surprises i want to talk about an incredible coping strategy you mentioned off camera um but just before that i want to ask you something I've been thinking about a lot and that's environment and how important simple adjustments to one's environment can make such a big difference to someone's lived experience with ADHD?

45:34Dana Dzamic:I think that's a really really important topic and not talked a lot and not talked about enough because when people discover they have ADHD they have that knowledge and then they start thinking about themselves so they start learning about themselves understanding themselves and But then everyone lives in a certain culture, in either small, very conservative environment, or somebody, you know, like we live in London, and in London people talk about it a lot. So we don't expect that we will shock people, even though we do get surprised that some people still tell us, you know, we are brave to talk about it, or well done for actually talking about it.

46:11Dana Dzamic:But I live in different culture as well in London and in my original culture. That conversation is still not as common. So when people actually find out they have ADHD, on top of learning about themselves and learning about masking and learning about what has been going on for probably decades, they also have to think about, oh, can I tell that to anybody? so there are lots of environments where there is no awareness or there is awareness but there is stigma or there is a different kind of stigma so it could be the stigma for example that people think it's a disorder and it's something is wrong with you i've heard that a lot and the word disability is very debatable or i have a disability and i can't do loads of things or will people believe me?

47:11Dana Dzamic:So I've seen people who actually hear somebody disclosing I have ADHD and then people just skip that. They don't know what to do with that information. They just don't even have the awareness. They don't know how to respond. They don't know whether they should feel sorry or they should feel surprised or whether they should ask further questions. So I've seen people just ignoring that and just going to the next part of the conversation. I've seen people responding, oh, you don't look like you have ADHD. Or I've heard comment, you don't look like something is wrong with you. So people face all that in different environments.

47:49Dana Dzamic:So I think people living in more liberal big cities are probably lucky that they're more likely, it's not guaranteed, but they're more likely to actually have understanding or at least awareness. But in so many parts of the world, and I even think in some smaller places in the UK, people don't have that. So I think that's additional huge challenge. If they don't feel like they can talk to their family, if they don't feel like they can talk to their friends, they can't even say I have diagnosis. They can't even say there is an explanation for my impulsivity or for my drinking or for me being late all the time or for me not being able to study as much or have a good grades.

48:33Dana Dzamic:They don't know where to start if there is no understanding. And then I've also heard denying. So, no, no, no, that's not an explanation. You just didn't try hard enough. So, even the explanation is there. So, the person is trying. There is still denial. and you mentioned a coping strategy off camera that filled me with hope um because so much on this podcast i speak about coping strategies that are targeted at the executive functioning challenges like how to be more organized but i'll let you explain it the the the emotional coping strategies yes so um i think once we find out we have adhd we we have to start working on okay, that's the answer why, why so many things happen in my life and why I struggled so much in this and that.

49:23Dana Dzamic:When we find out and we start learning and understanding, we start working on how. How do I cope? How do I deal with this? How do I become more productive? How do I regulate myself better? However, what I think is still happening is that a lot of coping strategies are still pushing us towards neurotypical world. So people want to be more productive. But more productive can mean I want to stay in my office, which is open plan with sensory overwhelm, with too many people around me, too many meetings that I find completely irrelevant for me doing my job properly, too many conversations that just disrupt me and I can't hyper-focus.

50:07Dana Dzamic:And if I hyper-focus, I would be so, so good. so what I think is always a question that we have to ask ourselves and I think people who support people with ADHD is do you want to find a way to be more neurotypical or you want to actually put more effort in being yourself and advocating for yourself and asking for adjustments and accepting just don't change are you going to do better by changing or are you going to do better by actually just accepting and communicating what you are with the others. So I think that's a big question that we always have to ask before we actually start doing anything about our symptoms.

50:46Dana Dzamic:Because the question of productivity is very often the question of how work environments are set up. It's not about us. It's about the environment, which is just set up for some kind of definition of average. And so many people don't fit into that. Such good advice. And I think it's such a good reminder of something I say on this show all the time is that, you know, we're not broken. We're different. We're brilliantly different. And in fact, the moment many people with ADHD truly believe that and they lean into their strength, that's when they start to thrive. This has been truly fascinating. I want to move on to my favorite part of the show, which is the ADHD item section.

51:27I normally say it's been patiently waiting underneath that cloth, your ADHD item. But in true ADHD fashion for myself, I wasn't clear in the email when I sent to you asking you to bring one. So we don't have one here today, which is my fault, but...

51:41Dana Dzamic:It's actually my fault as well, because I didn't read your email carefully. We're both people pleasing here. So that was clearly written in your email, but I just didn't read it. We could do it verbally, which is still exciting. What is your ADHD item, an item that represents ADHD? So the first thing when you asked me that that came to mind was sewing kit without needle. And I think for me, it represents executive function. So needle represents executive function. So sewing kit means it's all there. You have creativity, you have emotions, you have thinking, you have capacities. But then executive function is like your brain project management manager that really needs to put all that together.

52:25Dana Dzamic:so it needs to do that planning and organizing and prioritizing and the needle is not there so that was my item fascinating there was so much potential for for amazing creations i suppose but without the needle there's just that one piece of the jigsaw missing yeah fascinating dana thank you so much and i want to move on to the adhd agony art section which is where a member of the community writes in with a question and it's called the washing machine of woes because my adhd item is a washing machine because I always leave my laundry in the machine after the cycle finishes. And I do ask all my guests, do you relate to that?

53:03Dana Dzamic:I don't relate to that. I don't forget my washing but I can relate to washing machine in a different way. So for me, washing machine does represent ADHD because I think we can do better washing. We can have better detergent. We can have in a better ways, but we can use more chemicals to actually have our laundry washed nicer. but it's still within that you know washing machine and we are still going back to who we are so you know we are still going round and round i love it so two adhd item explanations is brilliant that's um yeah and different way to think about it which is also i have to say i've been using the timo app uh which has helped me remember my washing from time to time but still the smell of damp is often the final reminder um this week dan has someone's written in and asked i feel like I've masked for so much of my life that I don't know who I am, but I can't stop it.

53:59It just feels so natural for me to try and fit in. Is this a good thing for my mental health because I feel exhausted all the time?

54:07Dana Dzamic:Great question. So there are two things in that question. So one is I've been doing it all my life and it's kind of working for me. So it's giving me results, but what results? It's just what others expect to be results. But then because its exhaustion is there, it clearly indicates that a person needs to start unpeeling that and working on opening up. But because there is a whole life of masking, I think it needs to be done very slowly, very gradually, in small steps, looking for safe zone to do it and taking a long time. How does one unmask? because I know we've spoken a lot in this episode about unmasking, but if you were to take your first step towards revealing your true self, what would that first step look like?

54:57Dana Dzamic:I would start from questions. Let's make a list of things I'm constantly doing and I don't feel like doing. Or let's make a list of things I find really hard and I still do them well. Or let's go through the day. And I think, for example, diary or journal of how my day looks like. When I wake up in the morning, what do I feel like doing? What I'm really struggling with? I mean, none of us feels like cleaning the house or doing laundry all the time. Some of us enjoy it. So obviously, we all have to do things we don't feel like doing. But I think there is so much in our daily life that we really struggle with.

55:36Dana Dzamic:And people still tell us you're so good in doing it or you are failing in doing it. we have to think about what we do as work what stimulates us who are the people we see all the time and we don't feel like we it's a drag we don't feel like doing that um so i think we have to start from that list from that awareness and then it can be very overwhelming because it can be a lot it can be that we start from something and we still don't want to admit how much of it And it can be painful because some people realize I've been in a completely fake marriage for years. And with unmasking, I'm realizing this is not for me.

56:18Dana Dzamic:So it can be as dramatic as that. But it can be, why do I have to stay in this job? Let me think about something else. So it can be very cheerful. It can open up creativity. It can make people feel good. Or it can be very depressing. Dana, just before we finish, I want to deliver to you a letter that was written by the previous guest. where they wrote their three rules to live by okay that's exciting i'll pass you pass you the letter dana thank you thank you so much so three rules to live by uh love and be loved and this this one is lovely lovely uh be creative uh control your glucose and uh insulin level yeah control your glucose and insulin level um lovely do i read who is it from or it was from Georgia Eats.

57:08It was from Georgia, yes. Thank you. This is very, very nice and very useful as well. Dana, thank you so, so much for your wisdom. And on behalf of all the viewers and the listeners, this has been absolutely incredible. Thank you so much.

57:23Dana Dzamic:Thank you. Pleasure.