Worlds No.1 ADHD Mentor Shares New Coping Strategy | Matt Gupwell

39:28I mean, when you really sit with it, are you really, really happy and comfortable with that? A lot of the time people will start to open up and say, no, but I don't know how to be if I don't. I don't know how not to do that. And that's when they become cages because when we don't feel confident enough, it goes back to what you said about maybe saying, actually, I don't want to go out and be social every night. That fear of what if I don't, will I be lonely, for a lot of people keeps us going back even when we don't want to. It's a cage. It's a cage that's very hard to shake because we're not sure who we are, what we need, what is good for us.

40:13So, yeah, I see a lot where they become cages. I mean, look, yes, it's a very loosely connected metaphor to the addiction pattern as well. And, yeah, we see examples of people who, again, due to maybe a lack of impulse control, would say it's okay, it's just that, it's just that. And then other people have now started to notice that actually this is not right. this is too much. But it's the recognition of it that's hard. And where I first realized this, where I first started to connect this as a problem,

40:56was years ago now with the previous job, I had a sort of transit van thing, right, for work. Now, as soon as I got that van, literally every weekend, several nights a week, I was out helping somebody. Can you come around? Can I borrow the van? Can you move this? Can you shift this? And I could not say no. And I couldn't say no because I felt that that was me being nice and being a good friend and being helpful. And it was a good thing to do. And I would say to my wife who was struggling with the kids and doing things on her own, yeah, but I just need to do this because it's good to do, isn't it?

41:36Right? I wasn't able to recognize that for them at home, it wasn't good, that she was left on her own struggling. And I wasn't able to recognize that what it meant was I wasn't resting. I was perpetually tired and I wasn't doing it for me. And I wasn't getting really anything from it, but I was scared not to. That was my cage. That's when I first realized how negative that was for me. And it's things like that that I think can seem so innocuous. But actually, if we really sit down and face them, they are a problem. And they're not serving us. But it goes back to those high levels of anxiety and stress and fear of rejection and not fitting in, that we keep these things as cages that we do, because what happens if I don't anymore?

42:31and it's that fear of what if that i think keeps that happening i think for most of my life pre-diagnosis the cage i was stuck in was always dealing with negative hyper focuses with i guess three d's like i would either drown the negative thoughts out with alcohol which i can't do anymore because i like yourself i believe if i am an alcoholic so drinking is very dangerous for me or I would distract myself or at least try to and if I couldn't do those two then I would dwell on the thought and that was often horrific. I guess breaking out of that cage post-diagnosis is realizing that there's a C there which is communicate like find someone to talk to about it and you realize it and it's so obvious but Ned Halliwell famously said never worry alone and I think it's so important with all of these things when you get that spiral when you get that ruminating and the the mind that so many of us have that make it so easy to to hyper focus on something terrible when you're in that uh pick up the phone yeah i mean go yes it's fundamental principle of recovery isn't it you know if you think you're at risk call someone right but there is a little nuance to that as well so if you were in that dwelling phase and somebody said to you Alex, I think you're talking about this too much.

43:58Because we might be a bit more prone to rejection, because we might be a bit more prone to RSD, the likelihood if they say that is you don't go, oh, thank you for saying that. That's just what I needed to hear. It's that you then react negatively to them. No, no, I'm not. No, you're wrong. And guess what? Then you're back in the spiral again. right so it's it's really hard because you're right it takes us having the ability to pick up the phone it takes us having the ability to recognize i don't think this is a pattern i should be in but but that's difficult to come to because it can fundamentally change your opinion of who you are it can be a really bumpy escape out of that cage because like you said if you pick up the phone and you just sense that that person doesn't have the time for you or they're giving you like half-hearted advice then like you said rsd triggers and suddenly the drowning out of the problem almost the compulsion to go towards that d the really dangerous d that winds up a lot of people like you and me in hospital uh it's really hard to to not do it so it's almost a very dangerous learning curve to get out of that cage for so many of us it it is but i i think it's if you can understand what your d's are right i mean really and admit them which is the hard bit you know you're talking recovery about hitting rock bottom and that's the point where people admit okay i'm not coping and i'm not in control fine if you can do that you have more chance more more frequently of feeling like you can pick up the phone and not go into the drown particularly.

45:42But by heck, that's hard. Because as you will know, and other people watching this will know, the drowning is really effective. We learn that leaning into the stuff that drowns out the noise and drowns out the difficult and stops us having to face the hard. We learn that that works really well. What we don't know is that there's anything else that will work as well, if not better, and we're terrified to try it. So it's that community of support and education that says, try it, pick up the phone once. But yeah, it is very difficult, but those cages exist until we're ready to acknowledge that that's what they are.

46:33Matt, I've heard you use the term skill regression. What does that actually mean in the world of ADHD? Right. So, to go about this properly, what I actually say is skill regression is wrong. I disagree with the term skill regression. And I firmly believe that when people use the term skill regression, it's used by people that actually, and this will light firework, don't yet understand what the process of making sense of their conditions is. So when people talk about skill regression, typically it's something that happens after diagnosis or recognition. And what they say, and it feeds back to what we were talking about, they say how all of a sudden, in the workplace we hear it a lot, they've had the same job for three years and it's been a really high-stress job and they've always coped.

47:36And then all of a sudden, post-diagnosis, they can't do that anymore. They physically can't do it or they can't socialise anymore or they can't this or they can't that. and they term it as skill regression caused by ADHD and autistic masking. It's not. It's absolutely not. Fundamentally, it misses the most important point of this. What's actually going on at that point is processing. Your brain is having to process an enormous amount of new information about who you are, why you are the way you are, why you've done the things you do, why your life has been the way it is. And as part of that processing and of making sense of that, your brain has to filter some things out.

48:33It has to make space for all this new information and new focus so something will get pushed out. and that's why people say, I just haven't got the capacity to do that anymore. I just don't feel I can. It is not negative. It's normal and it's okay. It's absolutely okay to feel that. What I've seen time and time again with people I've mentored, with people I've worked with and the Divergence ADHD community is as people become more comfortable with what these things mean, some of the things they defined as skill regression come back. Their capacity to do some of the things they did before will return, but they may do them differently.

49:26So they may choose the social events they go to rather than go to all of them. They may say, okay, there's a family birthday party, and whereas before I'd have no filter and I'd be the last person at the bar and be steaming drunk now, I'm going to go, but I'm going to leave at 10 o 'clock, right? That's not skill regression. That's skill acquisition. That's learning how to cope, right? So this concept that we lose ability and it's caused by the condition is not right. What we are doing is making space to process some really difficult, really confusing, sometimes really upsetting, information about ourselves and also to then learn what to do with that.

50:19Inherently, something's got to give. I don't understand how you can lose skills just because you've got a new diagnosis of a neurodivergent condition. For example, if I was pretending that I like bicycle riding my whole life and I got a diagnosis and I suddenly realized that actually I don't like bicycle riding, that I was just pretending to do that to fit in, I still know how to ride a bike. I don't lose the ability to ride a bike or at work. If I was pretending to like accounting or a doctor because I thought that's what my parents wanted me to do, if I get a diagnosis, I still know how to do heart surgery.

50:55I still know how to use an Excel spreadsheet. I'm not losing those skills. Surely it's a stage where someone can consolidate all of the skills that they've acquired throughout their entire life, masking or not, and then take the new version of themselves onto the next version to grow on what they've already learned? Yep. I mean, yeah, ultimately, it's that. It's not, and that's why the term skill regression is, it's almost offensive to me. We don't lose skill, right? Now, I'll give you a real good example is the juggling balls I brought in last time behind you, right? Now, juggling was connected to my life for 15 years.

51:34I was a performer, jester. I taught 80 ,000 people to juggle. It was seven days a week. It was everything for me, right? And juggling and circus skills was everything to me. When I was diagnosed, in the phase where I became so just uncertain who I was anymore and so unaware of what this all meant, I couldn't go near juggling or circus girls. I physically felt a reaction to that because it's just not me anymore and I'm not sure it ever was and I don't know what that means and it's painful and I just couldn't do it, right? It almost repulsed me. I could still juggle. I could still teach people to juggle.

52:24I just couldn't go near it because it didn't fit with what I thought I, or who I thought I was at that point. It's taken me until this year to now put juggling back into all of the keynote talks I deliver. And I use it to explain things like executive function, right? And I use it to explain things like overwhelm or sensory processing because it works really well. The only reason I can do that is because I've done the processing of my diagnosis. I've made sense of what it means to me and who I am. And now actually I love juggling. I've got juggling balls in my bag, right? It does what it always used to do for me.

53:06If I juggle for a couple of minutes, it switches my brain off, I de-stress, but it's a healthy decompress, right? So that's exactly that point. I didn't forget how to do it or regress. I just couldn't because it didn't fit. So it's an unfortunate. This is terminology that gets perpetuated across social media. And there's a phrase somebody said to me that I really think this fits into, right? So this term of skill regression is now taken as irrefutable fact, right? When opinions start to be taken as fact, it's dangerous because people then think that's what they have to behave like. Who's saying they're fact?

53:51Oh, I see skill regression literally on every social media reel I watch when people talk about skill regression. And it's always by people who are incredibly newly diagnosed and they're repeating what they've seen because it fits. I can understand how you might be repulsed or not want to go near something that you've been skillful at for years because you associate it with a previous version of yourself that isn't aligned with your new self. But you still know how to do it. Like a war veteran might be so traumatized by his experience that he doesn't want to ever go near a gun again. But he still knows how, if push comes to shove, he'll still know how to reload and fire a gun.

54:28He hasn't lost that skill. It's just a clunky term that I think wasn't thought through. And again, hasn't been challenged. People haven't stopped and gone, no. Like, I haven't forgotten this. It just doesn't fit. It's processing. The fundamental concept here is your brain is processing information you don't know how to process. You're probably not getting the support you need to process. Something's got to give. Something has to suddenly go, I haven't got space for that. It doesn't mean you never will again. So it's terminology like that when we see it repeated and, dare I say, masking, that then confuses people because they think they have to live up to the definitions they're being told.

55:26And actually, they don't. They have to figure out what these things actually mean to them. And that's the key. I want to move on, Matt, and talk about grieving briefly. How does the ADHD brain process grieving? do you think it is different um either in death end of a relationship and i guess we can extend this to the loss of anything yeah i mean again so not a clinician so i can't i can't talk clinically about grief but what i can say is this then my wife will challenge me on this that's fine there's the sort of the gold standard model for grief for a long time was known as the kubla ross model and it said that when people experience any kind of grief they go through certain stages, and I'm going to misquote these.

56:10So there is anger, bargaining, denial, and acceptance. Now, what the Kubler-Ross model said was those stages can occur at any time, in any order, and more than once until the process of grieving has become one that we are able to make sense of. We never get over grief, I think is something you hear a lot. If you then take everything we hear about ADHD, particularly in terms of our emotional dysregulation, things like rejection sensitivity, and you put that next to a very traumatic process of grief, does it make sense that we might react differently to grief? Yes, it does. It makes sense that we may react in ways that seem to people over the top or sort of unrealistic to the situation.

57:14In some ways, we hear of people, particularly when we talk autism, who are very cold. You know, it pains me to say this. I know that I've attended funerals and seen people crying and felt nothing. Not that I wasn't sad. I didn't cry. You know, because my brain is processing all of that emotion differently. So, yes, I think we do. I think where it really is important is this. When you get that diagnosis, you get an answer. You get an answer that we've asked for, right? We wanted. But when that answer then opens the door to having to look at a history that may include difficulty and challenge and sadness and discomfort and trauma and everything else, as well as happiness and joy and excitement, yes, our brain has to find a way to process that.

58:25Now, in almost everyone I've ever seen, including me, who's newly diagnosed, I've seen anger, bargaining, denial, and acceptance. What's fascinating is the order. It tends to, for most people that I've worked with and I've seen, follow the same order initially. And surprisingly, the first thing that people will very loudly, vociferously say is that they accept it. Oh, it's such a relief. I've got the diagnosis. Yeah, 100%. I always knew it's wonderful, right? That nine times out of 10 is more front than Brighton, right? And we do it because if we don't do that, we've got to actually face very early on that, oh my God, that's a lot.

59:24That's why we see lots of very newly diagnosed people who suddenly want to tell everyone about their ADHD and talk to the world about it. It's part of that, yeah, I accept this and I'm going to share it with you because actually if I do that, I don't have to stop and feel the discomfort. But then we always see people after that initial phase who will go through what looks very much like denial. Maybe they're wrong. I'm not like that person who's got ADHD. I'm not like them, so I don't think it was right. Maybe the clinician wasn't right. We see the bargaining, right? And that comes up a lot in people's decisions or not to take medication.

1:00:11That's where I see that bargaining phase come up a lot. Oh, well, my ADHD is not so bad that I need medication. I don't need that. Now, that typically is about they don't understand what medication is, what it does. They haven't had to explain, but they're trying to bargain for themselves about how ADHD impacts them, right? And it goes over and over, and we repeat the cycles on these phases until we stop trying to hear what other people tell us our ADHD should mean and we understand what it means to ourselves. When we can sit in peace for the first time and say, I think I get it. I actually think now I'm comfortable with who I am with this information and I think I know what it means going forwards, that's when we stop seeing so much of that.

1:01:13And again, to put that in context, I have known that ADHD was a piece of me for a decade. I was told July 2015, right? It has taken me until this year to be able to say I can sit down, I can look myself in the mirror, be comfortable with who I am, be comfortable with what my ADHD and my autism means, not fight it, not deny it, and have some sense of what it means to me and what I do with it and how I communicate it. Ten years. I'm not saying it'll take a decade for everyone. Maybe I'm just slow. But what I'm saying is people are often in such a rush to seem like they've got it that actually they extend the process of making sense of it rather than shorten it.

1:02:05You mentioned medication? Yeah. What are your views on medication and the efficacy of it? Or do you think the solution to ADHD management is deeper than meds? Yep. All the research, all the clinicians, I went to the World Congress for the World Federation of ADHD in Prague, I spoke to the most prolific sort of researchers and scientists and pharmacologists and clinicians about this. What do we know in terms of efficacy? Stimulant medication, when suitable, when right for a person, titrated in the right way, managed properly, is the single most effective treatment that we have. particularly that we have a conclusive evidence base for in managing the majority of symptoms of ADHD for children and adults.

1:03:06There is no argument to that that I can find. And there was a paper, I can't remember when this came out, I want to say November last year, that was published by, in contribution with a lady called Susan Young, who's a phenomenal clinician and expert in this field, but she was part of the research. And what that paper did was it looked at all of the available, if you like, treatments, approaches for ADHD, and what was most effective. And again, what was at the top of the list? Medication. Every time, medication. The problem that I see in the conversation about medication is that what people don't get at the point of being told that medication might be an option is the right information.

1:04:06There isn't time, right? When we're in clinic appointments, very often, depending on who your provider is, there just isn't time, because of the pressures on the clinicians, to go into detail about what medication is, what it does, what it means, and why. There just isn't, right? It's why on the podcast that I started, we're deliberately with a clinician. Our most viewed episode, nowhere near your numbers, obviously, but the most viewed episode we've got still is the first one we did. It is an hour and 56 sort of long, deep dive into medication. Every medication. What do they do? How do they do it?

1:04:53Why do they do it? What's going on? Right? it's been recommended to physicians in training. It's been recommended to clinicians in training. So you need to watch this to help you explain it, right? And the reason it's the most viewed that we hear time and time again is because that information on that podcast is the information people didn't get at the point they were told, I think you might want to consider medication. So because people don't understand it well enough, they're fearful of it, right? And, oh, it's going to have side effects, and what if it does this and what if it does that? All the research is out there to tell you exactly what the side effects are and what the risks are and what they're not.

1:05:38For children and adults, it's all out there. I think what's important to say is medication is an tool, right? It's the most effective tool we've got, but it's a tool, right? And it does a very specific job, right? It literally interacts with our brain, with our neurotransmitters, and helps us focus and concentrate. And by consequence, then, can help with things like executive function and emotional dysregulation. It does do that, and it does it really well if we're on the right dose. It's not for life, not daily. It's as and when. It's out your system every day, right? So my views on it passionately are, I wish the information out there was better.

1:06:31But I am also very open to the fact that there are other things we can do that support us that can help. Now, for people who can't take medication, there are other things we can do. we know that certain psychological therapies, we know that certain sort of counselling approaches can really help us make sense of this thing called ADHD. We know that exercise has a really interesting impact on ADHD and that different types of exercise improve different parts of ADHD as well, right? That's interesting for people, I think, to know. We know things like, yes being able to eat the healthiest diet that you can reasonably afford and have access to well it's healthy it's good of course it will can help but it's not going to do the same thing so it's for me medication is gold standard because there's evidence to it but the nice guidelines talk about multimodal approach the the way that's often referred to is pills and skills.

1:07:51Now, if other things help us develop skills, that's great. But there are more people that will need the pills in order to develop the skills than will be able to develop the skills without the pills, right? So we have to be smart. We have to be saying, what am I fearful? When I hear that word medication, what am I worried about, right? But the skills are important. because they're very often the questions, why aren't I organized or why can't I go to diary or management time? We can learn skills for those. But yeah, that's my point all the time. And speaking of evidence-based, Matt, something you're pretty synonymous with, is there any new ADHD research that has caught your eye that might not be accessible right now to the public?

1:08:39Yeah, there is. I mean, the one thing I want to say is this. Again, I'm not a clinician. So everything I find, anyone else can go and find anything, right? You can find it on PubMed or Google Scholar. It's all out there. It's knowing what to search for. However, at the World Congress in Prague, there were a couple of seminars that I attended that I thought were really important for people to know the research was happening. So the first one was specifically on sleep disorders and all different types of sleep disorders. and how having ADHD impacted those sleep disorders. That was really interesting because it's the first time that that research has not just said, we'll look at sleep, which we know is vital.

1:09:30We know good quality sleep is really important. We've got lots of evidence that says that. this looked at people with diagnosed sleep disorders and their experience of adhd as well and it is different dependent on the sleep disorder unsurprisingly the difference and the way that people can manage it does vary so that was interesting it was interesting that at the end of that i got to ask a question about did that include people with autism as well to which the answer was no, the participants were all people who had a diagnosis of ADHD. That was the focus. They didn't know for sure whether those people may be autistic or not.

1:10:20But what the researcher said to me was it is an interesting and important question because yes, again, having autism plus ADHD plus a sleep disorder may well present again different challenges. So that I thought was fascinating. The other research that was more global, less UK-based, but I think it has a place. The other research that I found really interesting was there are lots of studies that have been done now about different regions, countries particularly, looking at why there are different rates of diagnosis in children in different geographic areas in the same country. So all children that would meet the clinical standard of ADHD, but in different areas, there were very different rates of diagnosis.

1:11:07And what the research seemed to be pointing to, and again, Steve Ferone sort of really explained this well, was it's not to say that the children living in, you know, if we said it was in the UK, it's not to say that there are more children in London with ADHD than there are in Chester. what actually might point to more is that there are more clinicians in london that understand that if a child gets a diagnosis there there is also the support that follows from that diagnosis educational or whatever it may be and that in certain regions isolated regions for example that support's not there so what does the diagnosis then give that child if not medication I think that was interesting because it does point to a way that we look at what a diagnosis means to people and what's going on.

1:11:58But whilst not presented at the conference, the one thing I wanted to share that I found fascinating was this. Slipharone said something while we were interviewing him, and it sort of really helped me reframe what it means about ADHD. And he said there have been lots of population studies now done to look at where the line, if you like, the cutoff for has ADHD, doesn't have ADHD is. What he said was, for example, if you wrote up a description of ADHD symptoms and you gave that to a thousand people in Birmingham, in London, in Edinburgh, in Cornwall, and you ask them to score themselves on how they think they fitted in, what you would find is not that there were more people who did or more people who didn't.

1:12:52You would find a very, what they call, natural graded distribution, a gentle curve towards the ends. More people that had some presentations, some of the symptoms. He said you could then take that and do that differently using, do you know, sequencing, right? So we can now take a blood sample. We can look at your DNA. He said, if we did it using DNA samples, you'd find exactly the same thing. A thousand people all have their unique gene sampled. You would find exactly the same thing. There's not more people with at one end and more people without at the other. There's a graded distribution. And that's important because it feeds into the interim report for the task force as well because it was mentioned there.

1:13:37For me, that's important because what it says is there are people who, if they went for an assessment, would not meet the criteria. But that might mean that instead of ticking eight symptoms, they only tick six. Does that mean they're not struggling? Does that mean that then we don't support them? No, it shouldn't. What it means is we need to look at what's the support they need, because they could be struggling just as much and just as hard as someone that meets the criteria. Right. So what do we do? That's where social education comes in. That's where community education comes in. That's where helping people understand how to support themselves is really important.

1:14:26And I think that's the most important thing, because that's everything I'm trying to do. it goes back to the principle of if we can help more people learn how to understand what their ADHD means to them and then give them tools to know how to explain that to other people in a way that they can understand, people are going to start to be able to get better support and better understanding and to actually then thrive more in life but to do that we have to stop explaining adhd in almost pseudo clinical terms by symptoms or traits we have to say what does time blindness mean to you what does executive function challenges mean to you what does it mean to you and how does that impact someone else and what's the support you might need that could help you.

1:15:25It's how I deliver every session I deliver with my corporate clients now. I don't talk about any symptoms. I don't tell them how to spot ADHD or autism. It's of no relevance. I tell them what they'll see that people might be struggling with and I give them a framework of questions that they can then ask that isn't threatening, that doesn't spike fear, but that leads to a mutual understanding of, so if we do that does that help you and guess what nine times out of ten that support is either low cost or free it just is understanding so that's where I think the research and the lived experience piece is important if everyone watching you watching this now takes one message away it's this the research that's been done isn't behind the curve it's well ahead of the curve it's just not published yet because it's slow that's research right there is as much value in the research as there is in the lived experience what we need is a coming together of the two more right so that we don't think that it's pathologizing on this side and a really holistic social model on this side what we think is look at all this amazing information we've got that can help us understand what adhd is and how we can better support people to understand what it means to them.

1:16:50If we can get there, I think we start to see a very different conversation. Truly fascinating, Matt. Thank you so much. My pleasure. I want to finish with the ADHD agony aunt section, which I think you're familiar with. Yes. We did it last time, which is the washing machine of woes because my ADHD item is a washing machine because I always leave my laundry in the machine. Did I ask you that before? whether i do whether you leave your laundry in the machine i've got to be honest i barely do the laundry because i don't remember i have to be reminded to do it so no i don't um we all do if i'm honest the washing stays in there for days and it goes on a new cycle so often it's frightening well everyone should be using the teemo app which is the sponsor and since i've been using them i'm actually getting pretty pretty good at remembering there you go then see this week matt in the washing machine someone's asked as someone with adhd and anxiety every time i tell someone about it my partners or work i magically lose touch with them somehow and gradually they fizzle me out of their lives do you think the two things are connected connected yes what's actually i think at the heart of this is i would ask that person when you say every time you talk to someone about your adhd be are you trying to help them understand what it means or are you talking to them about traits and symptoms with an understanding of adhd that is almost more clinical and expecting them to know what that means and therefore to be able to support you because that's the narrative out there really is we're taught to talk about the symptoms and inattention and impulsivity and i'll go back to this phrase no one else is as interested in what that means as you are literally they don't care they don't so rather than talking about my adhd means it's about how can you say when i leave the washing machine the washing in the washing machine for example i do that because i'm not very good at keeping track of time or i'm not very good at remembering processes that makes me feel really embarrassed.

1:19:05And when you then say, why have you done that again? It makes me feel like you're judging me, right? What would help me is if rather than saying that, you could say, hey, I noticed you left the washing machine, the washing in the machine. I've hung it out. How can, what could we do that might help you? Now, it could be a reminder app. it could be a post you know it could be anything but don't talk about my adhd means talk about when i do this it means this it feels like this i know it impacts you and i really don't want to be that person if we start doing that we lose less people because they know how to have a conversation with people they don't know how to have a conversation with a diagnosis because um who was ever taught that that's what i would say and i know the podcast as well helps people because i see it in the comment section.

1:20:01When I do the washing machine of waves, I see comments saying, you just reminded me to empty my washing machine, so thank you very much. Yeah, it's always tidy, but yeah, it goes back to that is the community thing. If somebody listens and comments and somebody else sees it, that's how we help. So yeah, that's what I would say. Matt, thank you so much. Just before we finish, every guest writes their three rules to live by and they post it in this post office and I'm going to deliver to you the previous guest's letter. and if you could kindly read it for us Matt there are three rules to live by number one treat your own physical comfort with respect your sensory experience matters yeah I like that number two be kind to yourself so that you're able to be kind to others and three never feel bad about enjoying or investing in your hobbies and interests very good well don't spend a fortune until 24 hours has passed yeah I mean set a reminder to return.

1:21:00The old classic hack. Yeah. Matt, once again, thank you so much for all your wisdom on behalf of all the listeners and viewers. Huge. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me back and I genuinely hope I haven't challenged too many people and I hope it helps. You've been perfect. Thank you, Matt. Cheers.