Everyone Wants a Piece of You. Here's How to Stay Whole -- with Luke Burgis

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31:14I want to go back to our previous conversation around solid self, because many people kind of leads to the question of sort of what is the self? Like many people form a sense of self through the communities they belong to. And yet simultaneously, there does have to be that that individuation, that differentiation, the principles that you yourself hold absent of what you are told to hold. Can you talk through the concepts around that? Yeah. So a lot of my thinking on the differentiation of self and the way that the self is formed comes from a family psychologist named Murray Bowen, who was active in pretty much the 50s, 60s, and 70s at Georgetown.

32:01And he was the first family psychologist that applied systems thinking to the family. In other words, if somebody came to him looking for support, he would say, I can't help you by treating you as an individual. I have to understand the family system that you're part of. And they would map out the whole family on a sheet of paper, right? the nuclear family, but then the extended family. And then they would one by one start to look at the individual relationships, the strength of the relationships, the nature of the relationship in the family. Because let's face it, the family is the first place where we begin to develop a sense of self.

32:42We individuate from our parents. But Bowen went deeper than that. And he said, where we either learn the skill of differentiation or we don't before we go out into the real world and by the time people are 18 they have a sense of self that is more or less differentiated from their family and that is the self that they take out into the world and those that have a more highly differentiated self are able to be in or go into communities and exist as more of a solid self without getting dissolved into them. And his basic explanation of how this plays out in the nuclear family, he would say that every family is kind of an emotional unit.

33:34And we don't always realize that, right? It's not easy to separate my emotions from the emotions of the people that are closest to me. It's easy to just catch them by contagion and assume that they're mine. And it happens all the time, right? When we're growing up, if, and I see it because I'm a new father right now, right? It's like if I have a two and a half year old and a five month old, and if they're both screaming and unhappy and throwing things against the wall, My anxiety goes up. My wife's anxiety goes up. And we are far more likely to be short with one another in that moment because we have caught the emotional anxiety by contagion.

34:17So we kind of catch emotions by contagion all of the time. And Bowen would say part of differentiation is learning how to separate my emotions from the emotions of my parents and my siblings and the people that are close to me. And that doesn't mean that we don't love them. It just, it actually, if we are able to own our own emotions and to not be part of the kind of social emotional contagion that happens in a family, we can be in the family in a healthier way. And like what happens when I come back to myself, when the anxiety is spreading through the family unit? Well, if I'm grounded, all of a sudden everybody else finds it much easier to calm down.

34:56So it happens at the level of emotions and it also happens at the level of ideas. If we are rewarded by our parents from a very young age for only supporting a particular political party or sports team or the idea that we need to become a doctor because both of our parents were doctors, when that starts at such a young age, we're not mature enough to sort of like understand the extent to which those things have been given to us. And they're bound up with emotions, by the way, right? Because if I go to med school and my dad wanted me to go to med school, he's happy with me. And it makes all of our conversations easier, right?

35:41So the beliefs and the ideas get married to emotions. And that makes them kind of this entangled mess. And Bowen would say separating emotions from beliefs and understanding the origin of your beliefs, where you got them from. Did you work your way to them through more of a rational objective analysis, or are they bound up with kind of the way that you've emotionally regulated yourself, your nervous system throughout your life? And he said, this is very difficult to unlearn. But when we examine the origin of our beliefs and their relationship to emotions or the way that we maybe felt in our family when we express certain opinions, we can begin to take steps of differentiation.

36:25And it's never too late. It's never too late to start doing that. It's not like if it didn't happen. It didn't really happen very much in my family. But if we realize that, we can go back and sort of take steps to begin making our emotions, our beliefs, our convictions our own. And that's the hallmark of a solid self. But what happens when other people regard that differentiation as a threat? Like the very people that have a stake in it, right? Exactly. Well, I think you're not responsible for how the other person feels. If you're oriented towards what is truly good and true, rather than trying to make sure that the other person does not feel hurt or angry or wounded or anxious, that is an exhausting way to live.

37:17That is exactly how the pseudo self gets formed in Bowen's opinion. Like we're constantly engaging in a social calculus before we speak or before we take an action where it's sort of this highly reflexive way of being where it's like, what would this person think? What would that person think? How will this affect my reputation as an author? and that is not coming from a place of conviction it's coming from a place of calculus being willing to disappoint people by pursuing things that you believe are true and good is something that people really need to learn how to do and it takes courage right i mean the courage to be disliked which is another good book because it does take courage it's not something And that's easy to do.

38:05To what extent should disappointing someone or being disliked, how do we differentiate signal from noise? Because to a certain extent, there is informative value to a certain degree of, we'll say, feedback that you're getting from others. To a certain extent, there is informative value. But then to another extent, sometimes it's other people are expressing their own dysregulation and they're taking it out on you. How do we differentiate that signal from that noise? Yeah, I mean, it starts with thinking about how is the other person incentivized? Does this person love me? Does this person care about my good?

38:46Or are they incentivized by other things, right? Whether their own job security, their own economic situation. Why are they giving me this feedback? What place is it actually coming from? is a really good criteria it's usually not too hard i think people you know that old saying right like people only listen to people that they believe that they actually like love them or something like that like truly take things to heart if they feel like that they're being loved or it's coming from a place of love so i think that is always one place to start and then like at what what level is i mean the feedback is important but there's many different kinds of feedback.

39:24One kind of feedback is a really important one. It's like, you really hurt me by your behavior. That's very different than like feedback on, I don't think you should put this in your book or something like that. Right, right. And when I say feedback in this context, most people, as we kind of previously discussed, most people don't give direct feedback anymore. We live in a conflict avoidance society. And so often the feedback, quote unquote, the feedback that you get is not through verbally, it's through action. It's through being shadow banned from the group chat. It's through not getting invited out when you notice that everybody else, all your cousins are going to this thing.

40:06Passive aggressive. Yeah, exactly. And you start to look at that and say, all right, what is it? Oh, is it because I expressed this particular viewpoint that they disagree with. And that's the reason they're shutting me out. Yeah. I mean, it is tricky. I mean, the social skills required to live in our society where I think there's less of a willingness to be direct than there was before are incredibly high, right? And people often communicate things in passive aggressive ways, but often the ideas that we form are very often wrong you know what i mean like we we project and have this fantasy in our minds about why this person hasn't got back to us or something like that and one lesson i've learned is i always start by giving it the most charitable possible explanation right they're busy just like i am they probably didn't even see my message or something like that but then i think people are so conflict avoidant that they let this eat away at them and like one of the rules in the organization that I run is that we try to have zero tolerance for passive aggressiveness.

41:12I don't know many companies that have actually explicitly articulated this, but with us, it's actually very explicit. We talk about it on day one of a new hire. If you sense that anybody is being passive aggressive to you and not just giving you good direct feedback, please call it out. Like in this organization, it's actually okay to just ask the question. And if I or we ever sense that, we'll also just ask you like, hey, what's up? That emails or that text seemed like this and just kind of like cut through the BS. And that has truly been like when it's articulated like that, it gives other people the permission to actually say something if they're sensing that too.

41:56It's incredibly like freeing, peaceful thing to do. You won't be fired for asking the question. We have zero tolerance for it in this organization. Oh, that's fantastic. And to that extent, again, going back to our conversation about the workplace, especially smaller workplaces can be very innovative and you can learn a lot about good behavior, good communication. The workplace in the best case scenario is almost a training ground for being a better person when it's done well. Again, I want to link this back to the people who are listening who either aren't in workplaces like that or aren't in workplaces at all because they're retired or they work for themselves or they're full-time caretakers.

42:49When we lose that opportunity to use the workplace as a behavioral training ground, how do we model this for other people in the way that you've modeled it for your company? Part of it, I guess, is how do we define work? What is the nature of work? I mean, we can work broadly defined could be the work of being a caretaker, which I'm also a caretaker for my dad. I think that we have to, without forms of traditional workplaces anymore and the rapidly changing nature of work, partly due to AI, I think we will probably need to deepen our understanding of what work is and recover the social dimension of work again and look for ways to collaborate with other people on things.

43:39And even if the work that we're doing with them is non-traditional work. When I started to become a caregiver for my dad as an only child, I was completely alone. And I guess being the entrepreneur that I am, I realized all of the serious gaps in the system, right? And the lack of resources that I had for caregiving for my dad, I realized that it is truly work. It is a lot of work. And I thought, well, maybe I can actually bring something to this and find other people. And the internet was great for this, by the way, like find other people who are interested in working with me to make it easier to share resources and to do caregiving for somebody living with dementia.

44:28Because I myself, I don't work in a big company. I haven't since I was 23 years old, right? I mean, it's been two decades since I worked in the kind of like formative company. You learn soft skills and hard skills. So I have had to find it in other places and be very intentional. And that four years ago now, when I kind of set out to bring other people into my work of caregiving, because I noticed, I realized there's a lot of other people that have that thing, that has turned into a very, very strong community for me. And I would bet that everybody out there could find some form of work that they have to do, some responsibility that they have in their life, whether it's being a parent, caretaking, or just community-related things, and invite other people to work with you or volunteer to work with other people on their projects.

45:23I think we're going to have to get creative if we want to find the social dimension of work again. And it's a dimension that people don't think about, right? I think there's three dimensions of work. The objective dimension, everybody knows it, it's what you're doing. There's the subjective dimension, which is the way that the work changes you, right? Different kinds of work change the subject, change the worker in different ways. And then there's the social dimension. And the subjective and the social dimension are the parts that we don't really hear about. Right. And they're the parts that you miss the most when work stops.

45:59Yes.

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49:48Part of experiencing the social dimension of any type of quote-unquote work, and by that I mean any project that you are undertaking, Part of the social dimension involves choosing the right people. You told a story from when you were planning an estate sale in which you chose someone specifically because her website looked like it hadn't been updated since 1995. And you read that as information that she wasn't actively trying to sell you something and that assuming that she was still in business, she would actually just be helpful rather than salesy. But of course, I mean, you can interpret an old website.

50:34That also might be a signal that the person just doesn't have their care. They're not diligent. Exactly. Lack of diligence, lack of just having their act together. Right. There are a lot of different ways to read that. So how do you find those good people? Yeah, I guess I do have a lot of like non-traditional ways to screen people, right? Like Tyler Cowen's question is one. I'm always kind of biased towards the anti-mimetic markers that people have. Like what are the things that they're doing that really let their uniqueness or identity shine through? In what ways are they not giving me the expected answer?

51:10I'm always looking for those things, right? So even when I do job interviews, I will never hire anybody without getting a meal with them. It's like a super high context environment where it's harder to eat when I take a long time to eat. I lived in Italy for three years, so I know how to have a three hour long Pranzo lunch. It's a high context environment where I can learn things about people. Internet's made that harder, right? It's like without that sort of embodied things, it's hired people over Zoom. So I do kind of look for the weirdness. And in the case of that estate sale plan or war, I was right.

51:46I'm not always right. Like finding high context things that allow you to see how people are when they let their guard down are really, really important. And you can only get so far online. line. And so there's the people that we choose for sure. And it's very important to choose intentionally. Often we just kind of accept passively the situations and workplaces that we get put in sometimes by just circumstances out of our control, right? And we don't choose with intention. We don't choose with intention, even the city that we want to live in. I mean, it's like one of the most important decisions that you'll ever make is the city and the community that you're a part of.

52:32I don't know if you ever read this essay by Paul Graham called Cities and Ambition. Right. About how the city that you live in determines the type of ambitions that you have. It's almost another form of medic desire. It is. It is a form of medic desire, right? If you live in Cambridge, Massachusetts for long enough, you probably wish that you were a little bit smarter because it's where Harvard and MIT are and so on and so forth. We could do this with this. It's a fun exercise. And it's one who's lived in six or seven major cities around the world. How have my ambitions changed a little bit by being in those cities.

53:01In each one. Can we go through Las Vegas? Because you and I both lived in Las Vegas. I was there 2015 to 2020. You were there much earlier, what, 2018? 2008 to 2011-ish. What did you learn to want by living in Vegas? There are different parts of Vegas. There's New Vegas and there's Old Vegas. I live in Henderson, Nevada. But you can learn to want dopamine hits and ambition and to want money because Vegas is driven by money and which parties you can get into and everything. It's not why I moved there, by the way. I moved there for tax reasons, and the rent was a lot lower than it was in California where I moved from.

53:48But I existed in a very interesting little community in Vegas with Tony Hsieh, the former CEO of Zappos. Zappos was this quirky community and they eventually started, kind of took over downtown Las Vegas and formed the Downtown Project, which I know you know well. We talked about this before we went on the air. So that formed me in Vegas. It's part of Vegas that people don't know, right? Right. Right. And it formed me to want to Tony's philosophy, quite frankly, formed me and made me want to be a little weirder than I was. Right. That was one of the things that he would say, or it's one of the Zappos interview questions.

54:31Right. Like, what's weird about you? They would just straight up ask people. And I'd be like, I don't know, I'm pretty, but plain steak and potatoes kind of guy from Michigan. Right. And I was like, I wish I was a little bit weirder. Right. So Tony gave me that ambition for sure. And then they did a very good job at collisions, right? They would always say like, what is your return on collision? So they would, they put a bunch of people together in downtown Las Vegas and tried to just have people collide in kind of unexpected ways. And with the idea that new businesses, new ideas would emerge from these unexpected encounters and unexpected collisions.

55:07I think that the idea was really right. I think there might've been some problems with the execution of that, maybe a little too much alcohol involved or something, but, but it's like the idea I think was really right. So it made me really, I, it formed that ambition in me to show up in unexpected places. And I, to this day, I tend to get really bored when I go to events or conferences or whatever. And I know everybody who's going to be there before I even show up, right? I can predict it, right? Just by the title of it, right? It's going to be the same kind of characters. I love environments where I can go in and have unexpected encounters.

55:47Those are becoming incredibly rare in our world. Did you ever encounter a llama while you were there? Did you get spit in the face by a llama? I did not get spit in the face by a llama, but I definitely encountered a llama. I've got a lot of Vegas Zappos stories, believe me. I ask that because I was also around that same community a little bit after you and Tony Hsieh and the Downtown Project. I learned a lot about customer service through being around that and the prioritization of the customer above all else. But Tony had all of these events and there were always llamas walking around. I definitely got spit in the face by a llama a couple of times.

56:31He also, Tony, purchased parcels of land that from an aerial view actually are shaped like a llama. So it was a whole thing. I also, yeah, I did not know that actually. That is wild. That is really crazy. It was unintentional at first. And then they realized that if you like, look at it from an aerial perspective, it was starting to take the shape of a llama. And then they just went for it. And they were just like, we might as well, Oh, we got a good thing going here. Exactly. Yeah. So he invested 300 million into downtown Vegas. Yes. Then he died without a will and without an estate plan. And so now, yeah.

57:06Very tragic. I will say I also was very inspired by the emphasis on customer service. Yeah. Zappos model, delivering happiness. Customer service was everything that they were about. You could call them and ask the customer service rep. They're a shoe company, right? Right. Those that don't know Zappos. You could call them and ask to order a pizza and the customer service rep would just take care of it for you. So it was like always going above and beyond. So they invested a lot in that. And I was running an e-commerce company in Vegas at the same time, right down the street from Zappos. That's how Tony and I got to be such good friends.

57:37I was like, I'm going to invest in my customer service and it's going to take care of all the problems. So I mean, I invested like heavily in customer service. The problem was I didn't have nearly as much capital as Zappos had. So I'm this young company that has my customer service reps on the phone for an hour with a single customer and everything like that. And I was like, man, it's a really good idea in theory. It's incredibly difficult to execute. Right. Exactly. But we got to this by talking about how the city that you live in impacts the desires that you have. Which is not. I live in Washington, D.C.

58:13now. So I should probably think a lot more about that. I've thought about that. In D.C., what is it? And I think probably it's proximity to power. Realizing that is really important to be aware. In D.C., you get invitations to things all the time. Just by physical location, I'm proximate to power. But I think the danger is, at what point does that spill over to your actual mindset? To what extent does it go beyond the place? so you move out of cambridge massachusetts and you still can never lose the idea that you wish that you were just a little bit smarter and you live the rest of your life constantly feeling like it's just the next book it's the next degree it's whatever to what extent i would never want to move out of washington dc and like have that be in me so i think i'm particularly mindful of it I don't think that I'm above that temptation, but being aware of whatever it is your city, your community is mediating to you and rewarding in terms of status, in terms of what makes you cool in that community, what makes you accepted.

59:30Being aware of that so that you can just have a beat in between when it hits you and affects you and how you respond to it. If you just have a beat in between, you can just respond in a more intentional way. You mentioned that you ran an e-commerce company. In addition to that, you, well, you owned vending machines and then later you ended up stocking vending machines rather unexpectedly. How do you maintain a strong sense of self when not only your work identity changed, your location changed, even the context around the ways in which you interacted with vending machines changed? when everything in your environment changes so drastically, how do you maintain that strong self?

1:00:15The first company that I started before the e-commerce company was a healthy vending machine company back in 2005. Our idea was as simple as it sounds. We took healthy products, put them in vending machines and branded them really well. Nobody had done that, shockingly. They could only find Snickers and Frito-Lays or whatever. And we put pita chips and granola bars and healthy snacks and vending machines. It was the unsexiest business imaginable, right? I had friends starting really cool tech companies in San Francisco and my partner and I were in LA, literally trying to learn the vending machine business from the ground up.

1:00:54And we were 23 years old and we went to the National Vending Machine Expo our first year. And we were like, yeah, we're the youngest people here by at least 35 or 40 years. And people were like, What are you doing? I don't know if we can ever break into this industry, but it was kind of our anti-memetic startup idea. We were like, we're going to bet on food distribution. And we would always call it food distribution, not vending. It just made it sound a little bit better, right? That does sound fancier. Yeah. But we did make most of our – the company took a long time to take off. It eventually did, and we made our money through being a distributor of all of the food and snacks that went into the vending machines we took a margin on.

1:01:37But in the early days, before we had a nationwide network of any machine operators that would run our network, even international, we just had five machines in LA. And I literally would go around and stock on myself and just ask myself what I was doing with my life. I just quit a job as an investment banker to do that and loan through my bonus. fast forward that company we spun off an e-commerce site and i i started four companies in my 20s but when i was 29 years old i i just had an existential crisis i was asking myself questions i was very unhappy i was doing well on paper i could probably have not worked again if i didn't want to i ended up stepping away taking some time off and over the course of two years i i discerned a religious vocation, a religious life.

1:02:32And I thought that I might become a monk or a priest. And I ended up starting the process of trying to figure that out. I was like, I'm going to take a year and I'm actually going to enter a seminary and just take some time to see if this is maybe where I'm being led. And I entered seminary, which is a very, very strange thing for a 30-year-old man to do because I went from owning my own house and a nice car to living in what was essentially a dorm. I was one of the older guys there with a shared bathroom on my floor. I mean, talk about like shaking up your identity, right? And like the people that were there with me were all there, they all had their own crazy stories about why they had got there, right?

1:03:16And I was like, wow, these are my classmates now for the next however many years. We're in this together. That was incredibly jarring for me. The most formative period of my life has been five years there. And the story that I think you're referring to is, you know, in the first year, you get there and you're told that you're going to be assigned a house job, which is basically unpaid work that you are going to do for the seminary. It could mean like a gardening. It could mean like printing booklets that are used for the liturgies, something. And we were all kind of like waiting with bated breath to find out what our house job is going to be.

1:03:54They were delivered to us on a little slip of paper in our cubbyhole mailboxes one morning. And, you know, as background here, nobody at the seminary knew that the nature of my first business, that I was involved in the vending machine business anyway. They knew that I was a successful entrepreneur. I didn't like list out exactly what companies and businesses that I was in. So there's no way of knowing that. I got my slip of paper out of my cubbyhole. It said, you are in charge of the campus sort of like bar and vending machine area. And one of your jobs will be to make sure that the vending machines are fully stopped, right?

1:04:35This job was given to me. And the next week I found myself like late one night on my knees, putting junk food, by the way, into this vending machine. Like what in the world? Like, how did I got you have a sense of humor? how did I get here this is crazy I think I cried and then I then I like burst out laughing and I realized what I need to do right now in order to grow is to own this job that I've been given and be the best damn vending machine stalker the world has ever known and because unlike the first time. I didn't choose it. I was given this job by somebody else. I could probably grow a lot in humility and I can't think of much better ways to do that than stalking this vending machine right now.

1:05:29It's funny because in accepting that and sort of accepting the ways in which I was being formed in that community and resisting the temptation to flee it and leave, because I wanted to many times, right? I wanted to many, many times, but I knew deep down that I needed to stick it out. I needed to spend an adequate amount of time there. I mean, maybe to go all the way and become a priest, or at the very least, I needed to be there. And I had burned my ships behind me very intentionally when I went in to make sure that it wasn't too easy for me to leave. I made it incredibly difficult of myself to leave.

1:06:07I ended up being in there for five years. but being in that community and committing to it for a certain period of time my initial commitment was one year and then I kept making one year commitments until finally I had the clarity that I needed that you know that was not going to be my lifelong vocation but sometimes we are I think called to places or put in situations that for a reason right you know we have to attend to the reality in front of us. Maybe it's our parents or a friend or something unexpected. And I knew that I needed to attend to that. And that by attending to that responsibility that I had to be faithful to my commitments and even to my assignments in my house job, as ridiculous as I thought it was, there was something in there for me to learn.

1:06:57And it did more than any other thing, form a solid self.

1:07:06Thank you, Luke. What are three key takeaways that we got from this conversation? Key takeaway number one, you don't have a community problem. You have a comfort problem. Everyone says we're lonely and we're short on community, but Luke flips that. He says we have more community than ever. We have group chats, discord servers, subreddits. We have these niche online groups. And the problem is that all of it fits way too well because joining takes a click, leaving takes a click. So you never have to sit through a hard conversation. Online there's trolling, but there aren't hard conversations. And those are the things that really build a person.

1:07:47If none of your relationships ever have friction, that's actually a warning sign. If we don't experience tension, it's probably a bad sign. It's almost like we don't have a lack of community today. People talk about that. We have a lack of community, lack of community. I think that we have almost an overabundance of community that is too comfortable, like online communities, for instance. It's almost too good of a fit so that we don't actually have to, or we don't know how to exist in the tension and do the hard work of forming relationships that last over time. That was the first key takeaway.

1:08:21Key takeaway number two, your job pays you in more than just money. Work pays you in three ways. There's the objective way that work pays you, your compensation. There's the subjective way that work pays you. It's the way that your work changes you, ideally for the better. And then there's the social dimension, the people. And so So a lot of us, when we plan to retire or to quit a job, we plan around how we're going to deal with the objective dimension, the paycheck. But when we retire early or go remote or go solo, or even just take a brief sabbatical or step out to be a full-time caretaker, we think about replacing the income, but we often get blindsided by the rest of it, by the social dimension, as well as by the subjective, that personal growth dimension.

1:09:14And one thing that Luke points out is that the future that everybody is so excited about, the one person company, the AI leveraged solopreneur, that's a future where you've optimized the people out of your work entirely. And that can be very isolating. There's a lot of rhetoric about job replacement and single person billion dollar companies and people just sort of doing everything by themselves. And to me, that sounds like a relatively lonely world. For me, like one of the best things about work and being an entrepreneur are the people that I get to work with, right? One of the best things about writing a book is the people that I get to meet like you, like through writing the book.

1:09:56That is the second key takeaway. Finally, key takeaway number three, The thing you didn't choose is often the thing that forms you. At 29, Luke walks away from four companies and enters seminary, and he burns the ships on purpose so leaving would be hard. First year, everyone gets assigned an unpaid house job on a slip of paper that's in their mailbox, and nobody knows that he used to run a vending machine business, and he opens up his slip of paper and he's in charge of stalking the vending machines. It's this reminder that the thing you didn't choose is often the thing that forms you. This job was given to me and the next week I found myself like late one night on my knees putting junk food, by the way, into this vending machine.

1:10:49Like what in the world? Like how did I got you have a sense of humor? how did I get here? This is crazy. I think I cried and then I burst out laughing. And I realized what I need to do right now in order to grow is to own this job that I've been giving and be the best damn vending machine stalker the world has ever known. So those are three key takeaways from this conversation with Luke Burgess. Thank you for being part of the Afforder community. If you enjoyed today's episode, please do three things. First, share it with friends, family, neighbors, colleagues, share it with people who buy things from vending machines, share this with all the people in your life, because that's the most important way you spread the message of being thoughtful and intentional about your life.

1:11:41Number two, please open your favorite podcast playing app and hit the follow button so that you don't miss any of our amazing upcoming episodes. Also go to YouTube, youtube.com slash afford anything, subscribe to the show on YouTube, hit the notification bell, leave us a comment. We love our YouTube fans. So thank you for joining us on YouTube as well. Number three, if you enjoyed this episode, download this free workbook that we offer as a gift to you where you can think through, it's a fill outable interactive workbook, fill in the blanks on these questions that invite you to reflect on your relationship with the five pillars of building wealth.

1:12:27So financial psychology, increasing your income, investing, real estate, entrepreneurship. It's this interactive fill in the blank workbook. It's totally free. Download it at affordanything.com slash F-I-I-R-E. That's affordanything.com slash F-I-I-R-E. F-I-I-R-E. Thank you so much for being part of this community. My name is Paula Pant. This is the Afford Anything podcast, and I'll meet you in the next episode.