Why Self-Worth Predicts Your Income More Than Your SAT Score Does, with Marisa Franco

25:40That sense of deservedness, sometimes you can see people toggle between not advocating enough or pendulum swinging and advocating way too much to the extent where it turns into almost entitlement. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There has to be a certain degree of humility and of like just contact with reality, you know, grounding in reality. How do you understand when it comes to that deservedness piece, where you fall along that spectrum? What we see with people that have that sort of genuine self-worth, where they feel good about themselves and they treat other people really well, they tend to approach their relationships, and I guess the workplace relationships too, with a sense of mutuality, which is I'm thinking about what's best for me and what's best for you.

26:28And I think the entitlement comes when you're thinking about what's best for me, And you're not really thinking about the priorities of the job or the position at all, whether they have funding, whether they have money, whether you're actually contributing or being a good citizen. And so people that have genuine self-worth are considerate of themselves and everyone around you, which makes you a really good negotiator, right? When you know what the other person wants and you can find the overlap between what your boss might need and what might benefit you, then you're able to really find those opportunities.

27:00And so it is, you know, I think these people that have genuine self-worth, they don't necessarily perceive human beings as hierarchical. So it's like, I'm not inferior and I'm not superior because there's no hierarchy. Like everyone's of value, everybody's worthy versus the people that, you know, I talked about before that have like this more so ego based sense of self. they do see a hierarchy they see themselves as superior and there's a fragility to that in that when they get negative feedback they very quickly shift and see themselves as inferior actually it's like kind of for this what's called in the research more fragile sense of self and so they're just less less aware and less wanting the best from everyone around them as well does the sense of mutuality, does that get disrupted when you don't have insight into the struggles of the boss or broader organization or in an environment, I guess in all environments, there will always be struggles.

28:00But I'm thinking about an employee who's maybe at a very large company. It's easy for that person to think, well, this is a big company with a lot of money. it's a rounding error. You know, the amounts that we're talking about are a rounding error to them. Yes. And so being flippant about what it is to them, that can sometimes then disrupt mutuality, which then leads to entitlement. Yes. Right? Yeah. Yeah, and I think you're pointing to the fact that this isn't all self-worth. Like there's also, you have to have information, you have to have curiosity, you know, maybe build a relationship so you can get access to that information.

28:38And so there's, you know, a lot of other factors at play aside from self-worth that related to context. And I think sharing that research at the beginning is like, yeah, there's self-worth, but self-worth exists in context, right? And if you're in, if you have a lack of opportunity, self-worth isn't going to create opportunities for you. Would high self-worth make you, I guess, more prone to trying to find that mutuality? Yeah, I think so. Because you're more understanding of other people and you're more compassionate towards other people and you're more compassionate towards yourself. And those two things are really linked because when you are feeling a negative emotion and you can go inward and ground yourself, you're less likely to take out that emotion on other people.

29:20And so, you know, I think that worth is like the process. And I think you talk about this a lot, Paula, of dealing with your learning how to deal with emotions as like one key to your successful finance journey. And that's what people with high self-worth are really doing right. Like when I interviewed someone who felt secure and they were sort of nominated to me, they said they would wave their hand through the day and look for where their emotional energy lied. And that was fascinating to me because I was like, I'm used to trying to be aware of my emotions, but I'm not used to trying to search them out, trying to think about my day.

29:58Where did I feel a little off? Where did I feel a little triggered? How can I use that information to understand myself better? There's such an openness to your inner experience, which for many of us can feel like that's going to be threatening and that's going to be overwhelming. Like I push away those emotions for a reason. And that's true if you get alarmed whenever you experience an emotion. But the key to high self-worth is that when you experience an emotion, it's okay. It's okay that you're feeling that way. You appreciate it. It's valuable because it's telling you something about what you really need or maybe even something that you want to heal.

30:32And so you're not trying to push your internal psyche away. And that's what it looks like internally for people that have high self-worth. They're curious about themselves. They're curious about their internal experience. And they see it as quite valuable, illuminating, and informative. Whereas people that have that more ego-based sense of self, they are more of a black box to themselves. They are trying to push away any emotion that's vulnerable, that indicates weakness, push away their shame. So much so that, you know, I think if you really ask them, do you feel good about yourself? I don't know if they're going inward and actually checking in and being like, how do I feel about myself?

31:11But it's like, what should I be saying, right? What's the valuable answer? What's the right answer? It's also related to intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation. That ability to go inward and acknowledge everything that you feel then gives you the space to decide what you want to do based off of what is inherently joyful and valuable to you uniquely as a person. That's intrinsic motivation versus when you have that ego-based sense of self, you're often pulled to extrinsic motivators. What seems valuable and high status in society and how can I pursue that? because you're out of touch with your own internal world and what might bring you joy or what you might value.

31:51If you have a high degree of openness to your internal experience, how do you safeguard yourself from making your internal experience everybody else's problem? Because I certainly know people who do that. Like, you know, they conflate, here's how I'm feeling with, now you have this responsibility to deal with how I'm feeling. Yeah. Well, that's the key because interestingly, you find in the research, there's two different aspects of like your emotional experience. Like this is like mindfulness research. First is monitoring how you feel. And the second is accepting how you feel. And so there's people that are high monitors.

32:31Oh my God, how am I feeling? But they're not high acceptors. And so those are the ones that are frantic, frenetic, feeling all of these emotions and being like, okay, now you do something with my emotion. Right. They're the ones that are actually mentally struggling. So it's not just about being aware of our feelings, but the ones who monitor and accept the ones who say, oh, I feel scared and that's OK. I feel scared. I'm going to be here for myself. I'm going to put my hand on my chest. I'm going to tell myself exactly what I need to hear. You're going to be safe. You're going to be safe. You're going to tell yourself what a close, loving friend would tell you.

33:03And that's your regular practice when you have a negative emotion. they're the ones that are doing so well at regulating their emotions internally that they're not needing everybody else to do it for them. Right. When you experience an emotion, you're almost often experiencing it accumulatively, right? Like I'm experiencing the sadness now. And what's kind of tainting that sadness is all the sadness I haven't processed from my past, right? So like, let's say like you go through a breakup and it might be so hard for you because as a child, your parents got divorced and that wasn't something that you processed and faced.

33:40So that's why that experience of monitoring and accepting our emotions can be so hard for some people. They're not trying to do that with a single emotion in a moment. They're trying to do that with a history of emotions that they might not necessarily have done that with. And so that's why I think self-worth, it is about attuning to yourself in the moment, feeling and doing, but it's also about going back to the past. You can actually change your past. And what I mean by that is there's this theory called memory reconsolidation theory. If the issue here, the root court issue is our memories, right?

34:13That sounds tragic. I can't change my memories. They already happen. But actually, research finds that because memories are made to predict the future and not record the past, they can actually change. The emotional valence of the memory can change each time that you revisit it. it. So there's fascinating research where people go back to a negative experience from their past, let's say their house burned down or they were robbed, and they picture themselves intervening in that moment and telling their childhood self, you're going to be okay. You're going to be safe. I know you feel scared right now.

34:46I'm here for you. And reactivating the emotion as vividly as possible while picturing themselves intervening and providing them the support that they need. And afterward, they not only report higher self-esteem, but you see differences in the hippocampus, which is the part of our brain where memories are stored. Earlier, you talked about feeling and doing, sensitivity and responsiveness. Yeah. Walk us through what a person would do in order to be more attuned to that. Yeah. Okay. Let's say you're at your job and your boss gives you some critical feedback that was unexpected. affected, you might feel hurt, but you also might feel like I shouldn't feel hurt, right?

35:26This is just part of the job. I should be resilient to these sorts of things. And you might make your feel even worse because you feel ashamed that you're taking this personally. And that is an example of a lack of attunement to self. It's the, I have a feeling and I'm going to shame myself about this feeling and try to push that feeling away and try to become who I aspire to be rather than who I am, which is someone unaffected by negative or critical feedback. I wish I was resilient to that. I wish it rolled off my back. And so you're going to try to almost pretend or cosplay or push your feelings away to do that.

36:00And that's one that I identify with. Higher achieving people, I'm sure, identify with when we experience failures, right? That we are, we're sort of trying to ignore that we're having a negative reaction to them or that we feel bad in those moments of failure. But attunement would look a lot more like, I am feeling hurt. This has gotten to me. Labeling that feeling, allowing it to be there. And then also in that sensitivity, accepting it, providing yourself. And that can look like providing yourself with care, putting your hand on the chat. It's okay to feel hurt. I accept that that feels hurt.

36:38I accept that that affected me. That's okay. That's okay. It's okay. There's a lot of research in the psychology field now is like feelings are, and we think about them in a heady way, but they're actually sensations in your body at the core of a feeling. So it's also focusing on the sensation in your body. I feel a tightness in my chest with that hurt. Let me focus on that feeling and sensation. And as I do, I notice it move. I notice it change. I'm actually trying to feel the emotion. I'm trying to notice where it manifests and focus on that tension and provide myself with care. It's okay. It's okay.

37:13It's okay. And so that's where the sensitivity piece may look like. The responsiveness piece, well, it depends, right? It depends on your environment. It depends on what you learn from that information. After you go through that process, you may feel like, oh, okay, like now I feel a little bit better about this critical feedback, right? Because I attuned to myself because I found a way to regulate my emotions. But let's say that that's not necessarily happening for you. Maybe your feelings are revealing something about the way your boss gives feedback. Maybe the boss is like, you know, I need you to do better.

37:46Like, you know, I didn't expect this, this poor behavior from you. Right. And so that responsiveness piece could look like if you're, if you're realizing, oh my gosh, my emotions are telling me that like, this is a level of criticism that doesn't resonate with me. That doesn't really work for me. And so responsiveness could look like, boss, I really want to work hard on this and meet your expectations. And I think what would really motivate me is calling out something more specific as to how I could do better rather than saying that I'm disappointing you as a person or you're not seeing me as a valuable employee, right?

38:20That responsiveness could look at taking action to meet the needs revealed by your feelings. So in that example, it's diplomatically asking for an environmental change. Yes, yes, exactly. There are some people who become very aware of their internal states, but then they make their internal state everybody else's problem. And with responsiveness, I guess you do have to be like judicious about, am I asking them to manage my emotional state? Or have I identified some type of a need? Yeah, or just some type of a communication breakdown, or an interaction breakdown that could be resolved. But even still, then there's the kind of the follow-up question of how are they experiencing this?

39:04Am I asking for something that would create a worse experience for them? Yeah, potentially. But I think when it comes to attuning to yourself, the first question has to be about you before you can get to them, right? Because if the first question is about them and what do they need, you're not even going to be able to connect with yourself. You can use this information, right, that my boss isn't giving me feedback in a way that I find productive. And maybe you discern that they're particularly closed off or reactive and they're not a great person for me to ask for this information from, right?

39:45Maybe you discern that based on your environment, but you have to go through this attunement process to even know that's something you could ask. Because if you are so quickly disconnecting from yourself or potentially thinking about the other person first, then you're not even going to know that. You're not even going to be conscious of that there's a need happening within you. Before we can think about the other person, we need to think about ourselves. And in that process, we can come to a place of thinking about the other person in a more grounded way, in a way that we're thinking about them in a way that genuinely reflects what we need rather than is coming from a more reactive state.

40:23And so I think the first question before what's right for them is like, what's right for me? And then once you've identified that and you have that information, it's like negotiation. Now you have all the information. And so you can figure out the win-win. But first you need all the information. And that requires that internal attunement.

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44:22We've talked a lot so far about the way that worth shows up in career, in business, in your relationship with your boss in this example. Let's switch and talk about the way that worth shows up when you're managing money, when you're choosing investments, or when you're dealing with a bad investment or a bad market. That's kind of a lot all in one. And I guess the reason, and we'll tease these out, but with choosing investments, there is this element of it that's inside of your locus of control. Yeah. Right. It's making sound, deliberate choices in dealing with how that investment worked out or in dealing with, you know, you're regulating emotions around maybe a recessionary market.

45:07Yeah. There's an element of it that's outside of your locus of control. Totally. So at the risk of putting a lot into one question, let's talk about how worth shows up inside of all of that. Yeah, that is a great question. So I think in our conversation of worth so far, we found that what high self-worth really does or really is almost synonymous with is the ability to regulate your emotions, being able to go inward. And I think of emotional resilience not as I never felt afraid, not as I never felt scared, I never felt fearful. But what do you do in those moments that you feel fearful? Sometimes it feels like the advice is you just shouldn't feel that way or you shouldn't, you know, you should disconnect from that fear completely, like put it in a compartment.

45:57but rather I'm advocating for you can't regulate what you don't acknowledge and so if you actually want to feel less fear you have to feel the fear that's there and come back down from it and come back to groundedness and tell yourself what you need and tell yourself you're going to be okay or you know if you need more information look into that more information like that emotion is our emotions aren't something that we should try to like amputate for ourselves, for our, for our sense of success. Because again, if we're so full of fear and we know I'm going to listen to Paula and not my fear, but we're now we're listening to Paula.

46:36We're still feeling fear along the way. We're not actually enjoying the milk of our investments. Right. So it's like a sort of two-pronged approach to doing the right thing objectively, but also subjectively feeling right about those things. And I think we only get to that subjective sense of like, I feel good about my investments. I feel good about my finances. If we're able to acknowledge the moments when we don't so that we can do something with those emotions, that's, I think, the benefit of high self-worth that sometimes you're going to freak out. Sometimes you're going to be like, oh my God, this recession is happening.

47:04But you're able to come back down from that versus struggles with self-worth or even the sort of ego-based, egotistical self-worth are fundamentally difficulties with facing and acknowledging and confronting difficult emotions. So they end up hijacking you a lot more. Or again, if they don't hijack you, then they're there to disrupt your sense of success, even if you are successful. Right. We talked earlier about how part of self-worth is also assuming that overall good things will happen to you or you're worthy of good things happening to you. Does that lead to over-optimism or sometimes excess risk-taking, especially in the investment space?

47:51I think the thing about high self-worth is that you're optimistic, but you're also living in reality. And to break that down from some of the things that I just shared, I'm talking about self-worth issues as memory issues. And memories are predicting the future when you haven't processed them in particular. But when you faced a lot of those memories, they're no longer predicting the future. And so what is the future? It just becomes possibility. It becomes an unknown. It could go this way. It could go that way. It can become what it actually is, which is uncertainty and not knowing. And so you're able to look at that sense of uncertainty and feel okay in it.

48:36If you recognize that the future is uncertain, then what do you do? Versus I think I know what the future holds based off of my previous experiences. And so you're acting from a place of truth in terms of how you navigate your environment. One of the interesting things I argue about feeling worthy is that it's kind of about not knowing who you are in a way. And this is from this researcher, Robin Carhart Harris, and drawing from like psychedelics research that when you feel low self-worth, it's almost like you know yourself a little bit too much. Even when good things are happening, you're convinced it's really bad and that, you know, the success isn't going to work out and you know how everyone sees you and you know they secretly don't like you, right?

49:24It's like, you know, your sense of reality a little bit too well versus, and then even like at the place of like sensitivity and responsiveness, feeling and doing, if you know yourself too well, if you see yourself as I'm the strong one, right? You're cutting yourself off from feelings that don't match that perception of you. And so Robin Carhart-Harris, he argues that when life is chaotic, one way that we find stability is to develop rigidity in our sense of ourselves. So things outside are like topsy-turvy. So now I'm going to know, I'm going to see myself in a rigid way, right? I am the strong one.

50:01I am the powerful. I'm the successful one. I am the high achiever. And that's how you find that sense of predictability once again, right? But it is a coping mechanism that our identities can disconnect us from ourselves. because what happens when I have a feeling that doesn't match that sense of identity? And then I can't necessarily acknowledge it. A small example is like my first book's on how to make friends. And I got a flyer for factor meals. And I was like, factor meals? I'm a friend expert. I'm not going to sit at home eating these single person meals alone. But that was an identity-based interpretation rather than me going inward.

50:37And do I actually, would I actually like prepared meals for me? Like, what's my life actually like, right? And so I think being in a state of worthiness, because things are less determined, because you're less rigid about how you can feel or who you can be, you allow yourself a more of a bottom up approach to your identity, which is like, oh, actually, like, I don't like cooking and I would really value that. And maybe that's part of who I am, someone who needs some help with cooking versus this top down approach, which is like, oh, I'm an expert. So I shouldn't, you know, I'm an expert on friendships.

51:08I should never be alone eating these one person meals. And so that actually allows you to know your internal experience more deeply when your identity is more fluid. But the thing about people with high self-worth is they have high regard for themselves no matter where their identity goes. And so people with high self-worth, sometimes they may feel bad. Sometimes they may feel vulnerable. Sometimes they may feel weak, but I'm not a lesser person because those emotions are there. And that makes sense when the external world is chaotic, a person might adapt by having rigidity around their interpretation of themselves.

51:46Yes. I certainly see that a lot. How do you see it? Well, I certainly see that a lot with people, you know, people who are very strongly wedded to this narrative of like, I am self-made or I am, you know. And then when somebody says, oh, well, I made such and such decision because I thought it would help you. They can't accept even hearing that somebody else attempted to help them because they're so wedded to the notion of themselves as self-made. And look at all the opportunities you'd be missing. People could be supporting you, like helping you meet your needs. Right. Well, and then also that it turns into ingratitude because let's say somebody maybe helped you in the past in a way that you may not have even recognized, right?

52:32But then you don't acknowledge that. And so they experienced that as like lack of acknowledgement, lack of gratitude. Yeah. And, you know, but you can't see that they did something for you, even if it was something small. Yes. You know, it becomes so threatening. Yeah, exactly. Because it threatens that rigid sense of self. Right. Right. And it's like, I think the goal is to feel like it's OK if you're not self-made. It's OK. Like whoever you are is OK. Like whatever your reality, the reality is to be able to bear reality, I suppose, is really the goal when it comes to worth. Yeah. Or maybe it just means the definition of self-made does not mean no one in your life ever even attempted to help you in the smallest of ways.

53:12Yeah. It's like there's a lot more expansiveness in the ways we see ourselves. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. You know, the cousin who let you stay in their basement for a month. Right. That means a lot. Yeah. But I hear in that, and this is like what we see in the worth research, which is this thing called contingent self-regard, which is I'm only worthy if. I'm only worthy if I've made it all myself. I'm only worthy if I get this certain job or position. I'm only worthy if I have this title, which is why it could be hard to like become financially independent, no longer have that title, no longer have that status.

53:48Like before I was doctor, now I'm just a man, right? And I think what we're looking for is for self-worth to not be contingent on anything, which is like, and that's that process. Like when you treat every feeling as if it matters, you are practicing treating yourself as worthy no matter what. always treating yourself with care, always giving yourself support, always being there for yourself. And that larger practice is a way to practice internally non-contingent self-regard that, hey, no matter what I feel, I'm always going to be there for myself. I'm always going to be beside that feeling, giving myself care, right?

54:27It's an internal experience of continuous and corrective and perhaps healing for a lot of us who grew up with contingent self-regard that we had to achieve to be worthy and giving ourselves that, that, hey, even when I fail, I feel like a failure and that's okay. And I'm going to be here for that. I'm going to be here for those feelings. And it's okay to feel that way sometimes. And everyone feels that way sometimes. And I'm going to, I'm going to actually feel what I'm feeling right now and provide myself care. There are a lot of people when it comes to that title, people who I really identify as FI.

55:05And so it isn't just a mechanism through which a person lives a certain type of life. It is beyond that. It is a specific identity. And I've seen this play out in the community where inflation will spike or they will need a monthly prescription that costs an extra thousand dollars a month. And based on all of these factors, now they're technically no longer FI. And so then they lose, even if they can maintain the same lifestyle with a little bit of extra like here and there, like even if they figure out the logistics of it, they lose the identity and that can be threatening. Exactly. I think it's okay to lose an identity.

55:52That's what I'm trying to say. It's okay to not become who you thought you would be because then you're actually living in reality and where you are right now, which is probably different than who you were 10 years ago. And I see this, you know, with health issues, like you said, related to like FI, that people are often, I sprained my ankle in October and I used to run and surf and dance and I haven't been for eight months. And that sucks, but it sucks a little less when I'm like, I don't have to be who I was. I don't have to be a runner. I don't have to be a surfer. I don't have to be a dancer.

56:22And what offerings are available to me with the ankle that I have now. Now I'm a weightlifter, right? And that's actually living in reality versus consistently trying to force myself, cram myself, cram my sense of identity into what it used to be. So that, because that's, that's contingent self-regard. That's, I'm only valuable if I'm still the thing that I was. But one thing that's certain about life is change is going to happen and evolution is going to happen. And we need to allow ourselves flexibility, expansiveness in a sense of who we are. And we need to not try to shame or push away the feelings that are telling us or the pain that's telling us that I'm not there anymore.

57:01That's not that may be who I was, but that's not who I am right now. And that's actually okay. And I would say that that's actually inevitable. And I think the people that are the most resilient are the people that are acknowledging that it's happening. So one of the women that I interviewed for the book, she was charismatic. She had a way with words. She gesticulated wildly. And she was an entrepreneur. And she would work with these businesses and be their sort of creative person, give them creative solutions to the problems that they're having. But she got Lyme disease. And it affected her ability to speak.

57:34It would take her a while to process words. And she spent so many years trying to overperform to be that person who she was. And it made her Lyme disease worse because she was exhausting herself trying to function at the same level that she was before. And healing for her meant I'm not the person I was before. And what supports do I need? Who do I need to hire to help me with the limitations that I have now? And that's what it means to live from a sense of worth, which is actually allowing and acknowledging your internal experience and it not having to be anything but what it was, even if it's different than what it used to be and having that all be okay.

58:13Right. To the question of what supports do I need, there are sometimes people who are threatened by somebody else getting support. So to the who do I need to hire, sometimes people who hire people get criticized because it's like, well, you're just offloading your work onto them. You are benefiting off of their backs. You encounter people who have resistance to person A hiring person B or who have resistance to person A changing, no longer being a surfer, you know, because you are all surfing buddies. And now that you're not a surfer anymore, doesn't that mean that, what does that mean to our friendship?

58:56Because we were surfer friends. We were surfer friends. So how do you deal with that? Like, even if you've got the self-worth to say, you know what, I'm going to hire this person or I'm going to stop surfing. Yeah. There are going to be other people in your life who don't like that. Right. Or I'm going to go back into the working world even though all my friends are FI, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I've realized when it comes to worth? I think sometimes this picture is painted for us that as we become more of ourselves and more authentic and feel more self-worth, that everything's going to be easier.

59:30And I don't think that's the case. I think sometimes self-worth means that there's going to be more friction. Maybe you can tolerate that friction more than you could before when you didn't have self-worth because you have more of an internal anchor and you have more clarity. But there might be more friction than what there was before because you may not be willing to accept what you used to accept when you had low self-worth and you didn't want to make any waves and you always thought you were the problem and you always thought you were wrong, right? Like some relationships might be hurt by that.

1:00:02Some, I guess, images that people have of you in their heads might change in a way that's really jarring for them. I say that because I want to normalize that because I think sometimes it can feel like, am I doing something wrong by like attuning to myself or going for the job that I really want or the life that I really want? Because all these people are having this reaction. but no like that's part of the process of self-worth which is that not everybody's going to affirm you for pursuing a path that aligns most with you and and that's okay right some things some relationships are going to fracture and that's okay i wish i could say that like everyone's going to love you when you just like are you're more attuned to yourself and being your true self but that's not true but i think our relationship with ourselves is the foundation of our relationships with everyone else, at least now you have the possibility to have authentic, high quality relationships with people that value you as you are, which you don't get if you never show up as you are.

1:01:02Right. But there might be either a readjustment process or a calling process of certain relationships. There could be, you know, people, yeah. What we see in family, I mean, I don't have to go on a tangent, but as psychologists, like family, there's a theory called family system theory that people try to change in a family system and the whole family's like, change back. Change back. Why are you asserting yourself now? So that can certainly happen. If there is a culling process of certain relationships, sometimes that creates loneliness because you don't necessarily lose people and then replace them immediately or instantaneously, right?

1:01:39So there might be a dip in the number of close relationships in your life or the amount of time per week that you spend in the company of others, hours per week spent in the company of others. Yes. There might be a trough there for a while. Yeah. And we need people to know that sometimes things get a little harder as you are no longer trying to be who everyone wants you to be and you're trying to be yourself a little bit. But I will say people with high self-worth, they are really good at relationships because Because, again, when they approach relationships, they're thinking about what could go right or how could I benefit here.

1:02:17And two, I think to make friends, you have to initiate. It doesn't happen organically. You have to be like, hey, I really enjoyed talking to you. I'd love to connect further. And that's a risk. And that's really scary. And people with low self-worth, they're trying to avoid all risk because they think it will go badly versus people with high self-worth. They have more resilience to that risk. And relationships are such a risk. And so I think this process of attuning to yourself, while it may lead to some prunings of relationship, it also primes you to be in a better space to form those relationships, fill those gaps and form relationships that, again, like people may be waiting to love you when you show up as you are.

1:02:55Oh, pruning is a much better word than culling.

1:03:01Culling sounds so gladiator. Pruning. Okay. I like that. That's more gardening.

1:03:11okay so you often hear in the personal finance space people will often say remember your net worth is not your self-worth

1:03:24yes do people conflate the two does that happen so funny because i feel like i'm in some ways saying your self-worth is your net worth well i am arguing that your self-worth drives a series of behaviors that may promote better worth, better net worth. But I am not promoting that those two things should be conflated because of the ways that I see identity as expansive, as one thing not determining your worth and your well-being. So I guess I have a complicated answer to that question, Paula, which is that your net worth should not define your self-worth, but working on your self-worth will lead you to be more open to opportunities, to be less threatened by success, to take advantage of the benefits that are available to you, for that to not feel as scary, to pursue jobs and opportunities that actually align with who you are and will actually fulfill you.

1:04:17And then that way, your self-worth does drive your net worth a little bit. Wow. Can we fit all of that on a t-shirt?

1:04:30All right, I like this. So your net worth is not your self-worth, but your self-worth can drive your net worth. Exactly. Yeah. And it could also not because honestly, if you're self-worth, maybe you're like, I really want to be a teacher. Maybe that's what really resonates with you. And teachers don't get paid the best in the United States, in a lot of states. It's just, I guess, having self-worth means that the most important thing is your internal sense of valuing and fulfillment, that intrinsic motivation. And net worth becomes a little bit maybe more secondary than what it might have been.

1:05:06But it's also because even if you are a teacher, assuming you start at the age of 25 and for the next 30 years, you are regularly saving, investing, index funds, you know. Yeah. Taking the promotions and benefiting from them. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I can see that too. Capitalizing on benefits. Yeah. Self-worth does. Yeah. So in that regard, I mean, and certainly net worth is never guaranteed. like there could be a massive economic depression in 2029. Yes. Right? Again, there's the elements of net worth that are inside of your locus of control and then the elements of net worth that are not.

1:05:44Yes. To the extent that there are those elements of net worth inside of your locus of control, it's self-worth can - Can drive them. Can drive that. So yeah, self-worth can drive net worth. It can. Well, thank you for spending this time with us. Where can people find you if they'd like to learn more? Yeah. So Worth, the new science of self-esteem and secure attachment available wherever books are sold. You can get signed copies from Lost City Books. On my Instagram, Dr. Marissa G. Franco, that's D-R-M-A-R-I-S-A-G-F-R-A-N-C-O. I share tips on science of relationships with yourself and others. And on my website, DrMarissaGFranco.com, you can reach out for speaking events on self-worth at work to help people during uncertain times.

1:06:24I hope people love the book. There's tons of exercises in there that people can use to work on their self-worth and I guess their net worth too. Wonderful. Thank you. Yeah, my pleasure, Paula. Thanks so much for having me. Thank you to Dr. Marissa Franco. What are three key takeaways that we got from this conversation? Number one, high self-worth is literally worth about$40 ,000 a year. Her research found that self-worth, even more so than intelligence, predicts whether people actually cash in on the advantages that life gives them. So two people can grow up in the exact same situation, or two people can have the exact same high SAT score, and between those two people, the one with the higher self-worth ends up earning tens of thousands more because they're the one who applies for the promotion, negotiates the raise, takes the risk, takes the opportunity.

1:07:26They're the one who doesn't just assume like, well, this isn't meant for me. Low self-worth, it doesn't erase the advantage. It just means that people never act on it. Self-worth determines whether or not you act on your advantages. Since we're talking about finances, I'm going to bring you into the fine and single. What we see with people with high self-worth is they're generally able to capitalize on positive experiences, which means if they're given a sort of privilege or benefit, they tend to make the most out of it. Whereas people with low self-worth tend to do the opposite. So when we think about people with high self-worth who grew up in poverty or who didn't, those with high self-worth are making$40 ,000 more in adulthood compared to those who didn't grow up, who did grow up in poverty, sorry.

1:08:13But when it comes to low self-worth, there's actually very little difference in income between those who grew up in poverty and those who didn't. That is the first key takeaway. Key takeaway number two, watch your portfolio right before you hit your number because that is the moment when self-sabotage is likely to strike. Low self-worth is connected to a very specific investing behavior, which is pulling money out of index funds and into bonds right as your portfolio is creeping towards your financial independence number, your FI number. That's not just random anxiety. That's from a deep-seated belief that success is dangerous and that being rewarded means that you're about to be knocked back down.

1:08:58Your brain is trying to protect you from a blow that it is convinced is coming based on old memories, old traumas, rather than your actual odds today? Potentially. Again, because people with low self-worth are very afraid of risk. Risks are going to reveal just how much I'm set up to fail. And so you might pull your money out of the index funds and put them into bonds prematurely, for example, because you assume things are going to go badly for you. And I like to talk about it as adaptive, because if you understand the science, you would see that it's adaptive. Because why do people have this theory, Paula?

1:09:35People have low self-worth. As researchers put it, memories are the database of self-worth. And so you've experienced harm. You have experienced rejection. You've experienced things not going right. And as researchers also say, memories don't just record the past, they predict the future. Finally, key takeaway number three, losing your identity, such as losing an FI identity, can sting more than actually losing money. This is very specific to your community. So let's say inflation spikes, or let's say that you have to take a prescription and the cost of it goes up by an extra$1 ,000 a month. Somebody who was financially independent technically isn't anymore, even though day-to-day life barely changes.

1:10:24It's a threat to your identity, even though the logistics are manageable, but the loss that people feel, it's not about the math, it's about the identity. And so it helps to let go of the label because over association with a given label clinging to an old identity means refusing to live in your actual current reality. I think it's okay to lose an identity. That's what I'm trying to say. It's okay to not become who you thought you would be because then you're actually living in reality and where you are right now, which is probably different than who you were 10 years ago. Those are three key takeaways from this conversation with Dr.

1:11:06Marissa Franco. Now, if you're grappling with stressful thoughts, if you find yourself reacting impulsively and you want to reframe some of your perspectives, you want to explore new perspectives that you might not have considered before, you want to stop over-identifying with feelings that might not be constructive, we have a free guide. It's called Pause, Question, Turn It Around. It's based on the work of Byron Katie. So the next time that you're facing a thought that just won't leave you alone, some kind of an intrusive thought that you don't want to have, this guide can help. It's completely free.

1:11:46You can download it at affordanything.com slash turn it around. That's affordanything.com slash turn it around. Thank you so much for being part of this community. This is the Afford Anything Podcast. My name is Paula Pant, and I'll meet you in the next episode.